blonde poker forum

5/10 NL, 4 handed

First hand just for info... 5/7c in BB, button raises to 30, I r/r to 90, he calls. flop nice, 6/8/K 2 clubs (K and 8 were clubs).  Lead weak for 40, he raise to 200 straight, I push he calls with K10 (eh?) turn makes me and he cries/reloads

Second hand (2k stack), red AA in SB.. UTG (has me covered) makes it 40 to go, button calls, I r/r to 123 (maybe should have raised more, but I wanted to give off the impression i was joking around/taking the pish)..bb folds, call call from the other 2

flop JQK spades.

First to act, What line do you take here? No reads, apart from their implied read on me based on first hand

out of position, I think you have to take at least one stab at it with a pot sized bet

In all likelihood this won't get rid of both of them

await the turn, hopefully heads up...I would be prepared to go into check fold mode on a danger card ( spade, picture )but have another stab on a blank.

If I am raised on the flop however I begin cursing pricing them all in with a lily livered reraise pre flop!  8)

push and pray for AK and AQ? I'm not sure, I'd probably put in a decent sized bet, forcing the others to commit a good bit of their stack to bluff or push me off the hand. Then see what happens. If they fold, nice. If someone pushes, fold.

I suppose a good thing about your tiny raise preflop is that you might well be ahead with your hand now. The flop clearly is the point where you want to find out exactly how good their hands are..

I check raise here and find out exactly where i am.

What are the exact chip stacks?

not necessarily gonna happen though.....so many draws can call your check raise and you can shut down if well ahead...

Hi Moritzey

the problem with pushing on flops like this, is that its really hard for me to get called by worse hands, and its even harder to get better hands to fold. I guess I might get a call from AK with the Aspades, but sets/2pair/flush/straights are most likely looking me up if I jam.. so pushing is pretty much a bet that can only cost me money. IT does protect me from getting a call from a naked spade (which I would want a call from anyways), but when risk is substantially greater then reward, it usually becomes too expensive. A gross overbet push is too suspicious

As for finding out now, I'd much rather engineer the betting so that I would still be in the pot on the turn, but alas, that doesn't happen too often in situations like this

me 2k.. utg covers (he had something like 3k) button reloaded full to 1k

I didn't really consider a c/r here, because the UTG who has me coverd can 3-bet a wide range of hands on both a bluff and with draws/made hands, and I cant call against any of them, so I'm just putting a huge amount of money in with a slim chance of seeing a showdown

I hate c/raises tho, my personal belief is that you should really limit check raises to situations where you are confident of where you stand..  (as in, a total bluff, or miles ahead/behind). What it does is gives my opponent quite a lot of info about my hand, whilst gathering zero info from his hand, and that information exchange is something that gives me negative vibes.

I love the check raise here followed by another bullet on the turn if flat called.

He will have to be suspicious of your check anyway and then throuroughly disconcerted by a check raise unless he has the goods.

I also like the check as if it goes raise raise you can abandon ship without further damage. I would raise you almost regardless of your my holding here if you fired a bet out as i am suspicious of you and i know that the flop will have scared you if you haven't got any of it.

I agree

I am a nl cash fish by the way which is why i win big or lose the lot.

i am sure sir tights ideas are for more profitable in the grand scheme of things.

after c/raising the flop (and getting called), the pots going to have grown so big, I'll almost have to go a/i on the turn, which is certainly something I want to avoid (i think)

You hit the nail on the head where you say "id raise you regardless of my holding here", thats why I wasn't a fan of leading out for a big bet.. lets me get outplayed too easily... and I'm no fan of that

so you are leading out for 3/4 the pot or less?

you don't like the check raise, I don't either


check calling tells you nothing but at least gets you to see a cheapish turn, is that what you are advocating?

It's a horrid situation and i think this is where it is leading

no idea. I wouldn't want to advocate anything here, because every option seems wrong. I felt like whatever I did was gonna end up being a mistake, and its supremely rare that I ever feel as though I dont know what to do, hence the post.

Anyways, I checked, UTG bet $120 (into a pot of $340, I didn't know what to make of this) button folded, and I called.. and the turn was the Ace of clubs.

a) what to do now?


I was sorely tempted to just fold on the flop, but decided that getting to the turn so cheap is a blessing and a curse, and decided to get frisky.


b) one thing I thought of immediately afterwards was an alternate line whereby I could potentially get a 3-bet in on the flop as cheap as possible.. by betting some maggot amount like $50. This solicits a raise quite often, but it also gives me more Fold Equity on a 3-bet because people are going to be raising a bet of $50 a LOT more often then if I bet $300. Thoughts? I kinda liked this line as soon as i thought of it, but haven't thought it through too well

a) I think his flop bet after you, the reraiser, checked post flop...indicates serious strength IMO...could be completely wrong though.

Betting that amount is almost begging a raise

That said you then go and hit your trips...I really think you need to define your hand here...is he drawing, has he a made hand, which just as equally could be JJJ/QQQ/KKK as much as a flush..?

I bet the pot......play it strong...you have check called on the flop and then bet out on the turn, this is going to worry a lot of his hands


b) You are advocating a "limit" type approach...the problem is I don't think a lot of his hands fold to the 3 bet so you actually have minimal fold equity...you bet $50, he pops it up and you re-pop.....don't think on that board anyone really pops it up with nothing

all you have done is build a big pot in a dangerous situation

As it is, I would pump it on the turn, give him something to worry about, unless he's sitting there with the straight flush of course!

No flush possible, only a possible straight.

edit: Sorry.

the flop is  Ks Qs Js


pretty much most things are possible on that board with a raiser and a reraiser

I check the flop and call the $120 the key to this hand now is keeping the pot small.
On the turn I am going to check it again and see what the bettor does.

If the board pairs on the river, do you check raise on the river or bet out?

a) JPs right, as usual!

b) On a non spade pairing river, the check raise is cute...check as if you missed the flush

Yeah i would have bet $10! It's amazing how many times that gets you a cheap card!

On the turn i am check calling.

yup, this is what I decided to do. i checked, and he bet 450. This immediately got me suspicious.

This didn't feel like a "nut" hand at all. Of course, its posible, but experience tells me this line he took is a non-nut hand.. ie 2 pr/set/baby flush/straight. I almost eradicated the nut flush draw from his hand unless he had A10, as I tend to see naked As check behind here, and his bet didn't seem like he had the made A flush, so I decided to call the turn, and bomb the pot if the board paired or a spade came.

The river was a tiny spade, he thought forever, and folded, claiming a flopped small flush, and i escaped

Anyways, the more I think about the hand, the more I think that leading is the correct play... if not for any other reason then building a balanced strategy. If I flop a monster hand, I want to be able to bet the damn hand and get action, and thus i have to lead with "dodgy" hands as well

Also, if you are leading with good or bad hands, it means when people want to try and steal the pot from you, they have to pay quite a lot to do it because the lead builds the pot, and they are working on a rally flimsy information base, so you are giving them a chance to make a big mistake, and in NL the root of our profit isn't always how well we play, its how bad the other peple play.

Moral of the story? get nicer flops

ty for all the posts

This is the best thread I've read in the hand analysis room in ages. Very techical:-  Great stuff.