blonde poker forum

Here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5381006&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1)

Having their bots running 24 hours a day?

Surely thats a bad plan.

Theres nothing as bad as a runny bot

I would just like to be the first person to say


ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

I thought this was just a myth.  I wouldn't be able to spot one to be honest .  " if you can't spot the sucker at your first half hour at the table ".  I am the sucker..lol

Has anyone seen one of these ?

Suckers or bots?

Or sucker bots?

lol.  I am sure you have seen alot of suckers throughout your many online games

bots? 

When someone eventually gets round to combining AI bots with a database of mass collected hand histories its going to be the death knell(or possibly knoll) for online poker.

I have always thought that NL STT was anathema to a bot (unlike limit Holdem cash).... seems I'm wrong again.

Not that I play speed/turbo.

Tank is practically a bot ( no offence m8)

lol my thoughts

You can already link bots together, so if they are on the same table they will know each others hand.

I'm in need of an oil change seemingly  >:(

finally got round to reading this post on 2+2 - it is massive now and causing such a stir

the accounts have all been frozen and invstigation by PP still ongoing

What are they talking about at the end of the thread tho - didnt understand about Asia and the MMORPG's.

All very fascinating

Gotta watch out for them there robo-bots (http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/1991)

A masterpiece!

Nice one tank very well written, thoroughly enjoyed that read, my little girl was asking me Daddy what you laughing at. I couldn’t tell her Thomas the tank or I would have been explaining all night.

You should write more.. :)up

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=taxonomy/term/126

I think these kind of bots are quite commonplace in these small buyin STT's particularly on Party. The moves are just so standard it is easily programmeable.
The most interesting 'bot' that i have come across is Red Knight on Cryptologic network that plays the heads up big fixed limits 50/100 and 100/200. Now i am reliably informed by other big stakes players on the site that it is a bot and it's predictability also seems to indicate that it is a bot although i have no concrete proof.
I'm amazed that it is possible to programme a winning bot to play such a diverse game but again i have been informed it is a small winner.
One distinct advantage that it does have over a human player is the 'heated' or tilt factor does not come into consideration and in these games it's certainly possible to chunk off thousands very quickly on tilt. Personally i've got a 100 big bet winning record from playing it over 5 sessions varying from 4-8 hours in length and that's after losing 100 big bets in a short space of time in the last session i played. Not enough to prove anything yet although i think i've seen enough chinks in it's armour that i consider it beatable. However i guess the owner would pull it pretty quickly if i beat it consistently. I just hope it's still around next time i feel adequately bankrolled to take another shot at it.

Why are you amazed that its hard to program a bot to be a winning player at limit online? Anything you can do, a bot can do better. Lets say there are players that have predictive lines, like raising UTG/ check-raising turn and then folding turn, or any line. The bot can predict his range of hands with something like 98% confidence. The bot knows his patterns, the bot knows how to react to his patterns, the bot can play perfectly. You cant beat the bot, because the bot doesn't have exploitable tendanices. It will know the correct play in every situation.

This gives way to exploitive counterstrategies, which are mainly math based. This is online, all you have is pattern recollection and math. Bots would be much better at assessing opponents because it has a perfect recollection of every single hand it has played. It can instantly know who raises what, with what frequency, and with what range. How many humans can know that player XS raises utg 8.23% of hands, and check-folds 13.12% of the time? the bots can. Humans cant. Humans have a very weak manner of memory compared to cards, and whilst humans work on such things as instinct/card sense, the bots are working with cold hard facts. As long as the programmer understands exploitive strategy, bots can beat limit games for much higher amounts then the best limit player in the world, because of the above.


Some people say that bots dont have "feel" and cant get a grasp on the tempo of the game, but thats just a strawman. The feel for the game is nothing more then math, pattern recognition, betting/raising/folding frequencies, and bots can KNOW this with 100% confidence and play accordingly. If you know that a river checkraise from a player is usually a bluff, a bot will know this as well, but with a higher degree of confidence.

I have felt for a long time that bots will eventually lead to the collapse of online poker, because of all the above. They can play and beat you because they are working on data collection and math/game theory, and that is unbeatable... unless your game is game theoretically perfect, and if that is the case, you would likely lose to the rake (but luckily crush the live games!)

The good thing is that it would take a long time (years) to write a bot of such a high standard, but once that has been breached, then it will have serious repercussions for the online poker industry, possibly fatal



*** All the above is written on the assumption that the bot is perfectly coded, and is coded by someone who knows how to play optimal poker. Most of the bots out there at the moment are terribly written, so the above doesn't apply to them, but to the notion that bots cant be programmed to win at poker ***

I wouldn't be suprised in a full ring game because it's such a mathematical game that most good players could play winning on auto pilot never mind bots, maybe i'm being naive, but i just considered the heads up game to so diverse that it would be hard to program even what is perfect poker in such a situation. Having read a few threads on 2+2 tonight though i've been enlightened just hope this bot doesn't improve too much while i'm under bankrolled to play it.

I wonder if Which Cmoputing are going to do an article on which is the Best Buy when it comes to bots...maybe have a SnG using all the Bots available and seeing which wins  :D

Another great post Totalise. I'm of the same thought that bots will destroy the online game.

If anyone wants to see something disturbing, check out the WinPoker forum.

A bunch of lowdown bot programmers openly discussing their trade. It's a real eye opener.

have you got a link tnak?

I hope they all go broke (http://forum.winholdem.net/wbb/)

It's WinHoldem I was referring to.

My apologies to WinPoker, a perfectly legitimate program.

What a joke. The above site Tank has listed is a fourm where cheats can talk about the easiest and best ways to cheat without getting caught out!

yes, but the worst thing anyone should do is to highlight it too much.. because its a given that poker-sites also monitor the above, so they are giving the sites at least some free info in the war against bots

Most of the scumbuckets on that site dont even know how to play poker correctly, so what they are doing is programming a bot to play according to their style.. that site is the least of a poker-sites concerns as far as bots are concerned, because people who can program bots correctly aren't going to buy some bucket shop filthy bot from those degens, and will remain underground.

The thing that bothers me is that a lot of them believe they are doing nothing wrong??????

A Pokerstars reply,

Hello Nemesis,

Thank you for your concern regarding WinHoldem and PokerStars. 

WinHoldem violates not one, but two separate sections of our terms of
service: engaging in automated play and hole card sharing.   

The use of WinHoldem is absolutely forbidden on PokerStars, as is the
use of any other packages that violate these rules.

PokerStars monitors players to detect the use of WinHoldem, and when
use of this forbidden package is discovered we will take appropriate
remedial action against the player using it.

Thank you for your concern and report.  The integrity of our games
remains our highest concern.  We hope you continue to enjoy the games
here on PokerStars, secure in the knowledge that we do everything
possible to ensure a safe playing environment for our players.

Regards,

William
PokerStars Support Team

The trouble is.............how can they possibly know someone is using a bot?

you see this a lot with SNG players as well...they have SNGPT which tells them in $ev terms whether a push around the bubble is correct or not, which is where the term pushbot comes from (you know all this, but others dont).. so what they ask for is SNGPT in real time over their table so they can just look at it and decide, which is effectively what a bot is! A lot of the higher stakes SNG players are looking for this, they wont accept that its wrong because "I will be the one pressing the buttons" instead of it being computer fuelled.. but they better believe that it is just as wrong as getting a BOT to do it for them

Luckily the writer of SNGPT has refused all requests to implement this (and numerous HUGE cash offers) but that doesn't mean the hackers haven't already busted his code and have a hacked version of this.. thats why I moved from sngs to cash games, because of this fear that if it hasn't happened already, it most certainly will at some point in the future..

follow the money I guess.... Party have screen scrapers so they can monitor activity on your PC (which is great, but a violation of privacy) so the lifespan of a BOT is going to be short, but in that space of time they can scavenge a lot of $ from the poor unsuspecting souls. Not sure what stars can do/are doing about it, but they have a multi billion $ company to protect, so I presume they are going to be aggressive in defending their cash cow.

No honour amongst thieves, they might string each other up.

These guys might think they are smart but I think I just busted one of them bragging about his Bot’s, then he is so smart he has in his signature, Free $25 party poker sign up bonus. Use bonus code *******

Now am I correct in thinking that code will tell party poker who that guy is, giving them a chance to view his play?

Nice spot bundle! Report it to Party ... although I would wager they will just send you their standard reply, they seem really poor at dealing with any such complaint.

On a different note the most disturbing aspect, although I suppose innevitable, is some 2+2 forum members claiming they have been approached by the 'bot writers' and offered up to $10k to help develop the bots playing style. With recent bots found on party being thought to make $1,000 a day, with up to twenty in play at once, this seems feasible.

Picture the scene ... some acne ridden teenager squirrled away in a basement, writes the software, bypasses the security protocols undetected, gets his bots in play ... only problem is he has a poor grasp of poker and they keep losing. Solution? Use poker prophecy or something similar and find the players with the highest ROI and approach them ... with an IM saying I'll give you $10k if you teach me how to play properly?

No self respecting player with an interest in the game would take this up, but a quick(?) chat with TANK, a large brown envelope, and they could be playing 240 STTs every 24hrs!

I think posting the link on 2+2 can only attract people to this sort of thing, it's like cold calling, if you call 100 people and 1 buys then the whole excercise is worth the time.
Ditto for the link on 2+2, all the extra traffic is bound to get a few converts.

LOL