blonde poker forum

You have QQ on the button. First level of stt.
UTG big stack limps, all fold to you and you raise it 200 blinds = 20/40
utg moves all in (has played two hands pretty tricky and won big pots with KK twice)
call or fold?

Fold.

its an easy fold, but there is always that nagging feeling.

do you know anything else about the guy who has gone all in?

all i know is what i have said.

Last three times in this situation i have folded and been shown AK, JJ, JJ.

bugging me slightly.

I would tend to call.
I take the view that he is not looking for callers and often I find that in the early stages an all in is a small to medium pair or as you say A K . Obviously there are times when this approach doesn't work but there are only two hands better than yours so I would call. (answer might change depending on bankroll and cost of STT)

he's seen you raise 5 times the BB. he knows you have a hand. so he must have something big to do this. majority of the time you see AK flipped over if you call here but it's really down to how good you think you are and if you really need the chips go further.

For me its an easy call....

 ;iagree;

I'd call here too.

Every time in this situation you would call? beginning, end or middle of a tournament?

i'm a lot happier being first in here. Is this the flushy get your chips in and if you lose move on. Would you do it in a £1500 main event? Disregard the size of the tourney buy in, whats the correct move?

given the hands played (ie your read), and given that it is a sng, I'd fold, and not sweat it too much. SNG's should make you less willing to go for early gambles, both because of the non-linear chip values (which are more pronounced in a sng then the early stages of a mutli) and because you can just go into pushbot mode later on, meaning you should be less inclined to take risk for your stack early on... and given your read here, its likely he has you praying to be a coinflip (not certain of course, but it makes it more likely) Absent this particular read, I think you should probably call, as its less likely you are praying to be a coinflip, so your percieved equity edge is likely to be much greater, great enough to warrant a call.

In a multi, I would call.. a) because of less chip-value considerations  b) in a multi, this move is less likely to mean a biggier hand then QQ (on a proportional scale) c) you need mucho mucho chips to get anywhere, and you might as well start accumulating/trying to accumulate as soon as possible. This is mostly related to internet tournies though, I have no proper experience of high buy-in live tournies so I cant comment

Agreed, but I can also find enough reasons to get away from it.

If I where in the situation though I don't think there is any doubting I would have put my chips in.  But by nature I am a gambler.  and QQ is a monster hand no doubting it.  But there is also the cautious aspect that is saying leave it be there will be other opportunities to take down bigger pots.  When you know you are in front.

I call as i feel your description of him means he is a reasonable player who may well be exploiting his image and has a wider range than a usual utg limper checkraising allin. He knows he's just shown down kings twice and everyone is wary of him. I think you'll find smaller pairs here often enough this is a reasonable call.

I call, find him with AA, hit a Q and chuckle at my great read.

I wouldn't put him on Aces or Kings here.

If he has got AA or KK I think the push is a real rookie move (do others agree with this?). He could be a rookie, in which case you're in trouble, but if he knows what he's doing it looks like he's trying to take it down pre flop with AK or TT/JJ...

 But then why the limp raise? That surely that screams AA or KK... arrrgggg. I'm confused... :dontask:

call immediately. i dont think you can ever fold qq kk aa or ak to a preflop allin versus 1 player in the first level of a stt with a starting stack.

I have quite a lot of experience in these tribeca sng's at a lot of diffrent levels, i dont think i would pass QQ in any of them. I think the guys hand range is pretty wide at best AK.

Even if it is AK there is alreay 460 in the pot and you are calling a further 1800, so 1800 for a 2260 pot with if it is AK about a 55%-45% at worst shot. I am not good enough to pass that!

I do agree with what Totalise says about the non-linear value of chips, it is huge in SNG's however i feel our edge here is huge i am thinking something like 65-35, no-one can pass that!

I don't really understand this. Would someone be kind enough to explain it to me? I think at the start of an MTT it is like a cash game where if you have any +EV situation you should take it. But as you accumilate chips each chip you pick up becomes less valuable. I believe this is where (or it could be a completely different concept??????) you get differences between chipEV and $EV. Last night I was ITM in a live tourney but short stacked and blondite Pommy on my right even more short stacked than me pushed his SB into my BB. I had 96 and was apparently (so some geezer was shouting) getting 2.5/1 and I couldn't pass. But if I lose that hand which is likely then I would be crippled with no FE left whatsoever. I think in that situation because my chips are so valuable and going up just one place gives me more money this is a correct fold because my $ or in this case £EV is more than my ChipEV. But I'm very fuzzy on all of this.

In a SNG I believe a good player has an edge over bad players if he's a good pushbot but I dunno sometimes you don't see a good hand all SNG and end up pushing J9 into AA or something. Struggling to get the non linear thing tho.

I don't think I could fold this hand btw  :D

I don't really understand this. Would someone be kind enough to explain it to me? I think at the start of an MTT it is like a cash game where if you have any +EV situation you should take it. But as you accumilate chips each chip you pick up becomes less valuable. I believe this is where (or it could be a completely different concept???) you get differences between chipEV and $EV.

Right. The difference between the Multi and the SNG in terms of chip value is that if you double up on the first hand (as an example) your tournament equity hasn't doubled. If you play a $20 sng, with a prize structure of 50/30/20% breakdown.. your stack at the beginning is "worth"  $20 (assuming parity in skill level). If you double up, its not worth $40, its worth about $36. If you win someone elses stack after that, its not worth another $20 to you, its worth about $14.. if you get all the chips, you dont get all the prize pool... you get to the stage where you can have half the chips in play which should be 5 buyins ($20*5) but clearly the most your stack can ever be worth is $50 due to the breakdown of the prize pool. This is why there are chip considerations in play when deciding to go for gambles in the early stages. If you are a casual player, then you shouldn't really pay much attention to it, if you are a pushbot pro like tank, repeatedly taking scenarios that are -$ev but plus Cev are likely to have a pretty serious impact on your overall EV. Compare that to a Multi, where there are for example 1000 runnners and a $20 buyin, because at the start the chips are such a minute % of the overall tournament, if you double up on the first hand, you are pretty much doubling your equity, so at the early stages, Chip values are assumed to be linear. Naturally, the later you get into the tourney, the less this applies.

Last night I was ITM in a live tourney but short stacked and blondite Pommy on my right even more short stacked than me pushed his SB into my BB. I had 96 and was apparently (so some geezer was shouting) getting 2.5/1 and I couldn't pass. But if I lose that hand which is likely then I would be crippled with no FE left whatsoever. I think in that situation because my chips are so valuable and going up just one place gives me more money this is a correct fold because my $ or in this case £EV is more than my ChipEV. But I'm very fuzzy on all of this.

This is dependant on game conditions as much as anything else, although I do believe that turning down marginal +EV chances in order to retain leverage is a valid tournament strategy, irrespective of EV considerations.. as always, it depends

In a SNG I believe a good player has an edge over bad players if he's a good pushbot but I dunno sometimes you don't see a good hand all SNG and end up pushing J9 into AA or something. Struggling to get the non linear thing tho.

yeah, sometimes you do wake up and walk into a big hand, but thats poker. I dont know if my post helped at all with the non-linear stuff, I wrote it fleetingly and haven't proof read it, am playing a few tables at the momo.. so if its still confusing, speak up and I'll try and explain it better when time permits.


I don't think I could fold this hand btw 

I dont think I could fold it without a read either,but when tricky players (which i think the OP alludes to in his intial post) do this move, I tend to try and give em more credit for not playing JJ or below this way, and as a result dont really want to take QQ up against AK/QQ/KK/AA

hth

Well, did you call or fold?

i called, he aces and i lost.