blonde poker forum

Picture the scene.

I'm playing a self deal satellite to Luton's triple bill and its a pleasant if tough table

At one point a very nice guy gets up while in the process of mucking his hand to go and have a smoke and in his haste to do so slightly lifts one card

I am still to act and I see it, and I am the only one who sees the card.

Immediately I declare what the card is and I ask for it to be exposed.

No one says a word, its all fine

Two hands later I see at the end of the deal the burn card. Again I ask for it to be exposed.

There follows a big discussion between experienced and honest players at the table as to whether people routinely declare when they are the only one to see a card.

The majority opinion was that many players do nothing and one person stated

"Honesty does not pay in poker"

What do we all think about this? Is this an old school view? Is it true? I know its a sad view to have

I am interested because playing as much live poker as I do I see a huge dichotomy betwen "old" and "new" school and those who shoot angles and those that wouldn't


Which gets to my supplementary question:

Is poker at a crossroads, where the nippers/angle shooters can be safely said to be outnumbered by those who are honest as the day is long?

Whether it pays or not isn't the point, either your honest or your a cheat

I'm always of the opinion that I would want everybody else to expose the card if they saw it, just like if I saw a card then I would say it needs to be exposed and for the whole table to see it. 

Cheats are cheats in my book

I'm with Red, its down to you and how YOU feel about cheating.

I agree with you all

What I think my opponent was trying to say was that there are many people who wouldn't declare and take any angle they can shoot to gain an advantage

Not sure if this is true but I suspect, human nature being what is, that it is

I do not personally care if others do this because I am happy to attempt to win withough gaining an unfair edge and can feel comfortable with my morals if I succeed

Finally what I suppose the big picture is, is that poker players represent every strata of society...from the wealthy to the skint, the honest to the dishonest, the old, the young, the male and the female.

I think being honest pays in more than the financial sense.
 

Totally agree tighty, Honesty & Integrity count an awful lot, much more than ability, skill or whatever. Maybe its old fashioned, but to me thats more important than winning.

I agree with what everyone says so far, but the question for me is how far to take it ?

Example would be a sloppy dealer (probably self deal) who slightly exposes cards as he tries to shuffle the cards - we have all seen how hamfisted some people can be - bottom line is you know (for example) there is an ace and a king near the bottom of the deck.

should I tell everyone this ?
ask for a misdeal ?
Say I get dealt AK, should this affect my betting ? would this be considered cheating ?

If you see the A and the K, either cos he's hamfisted or not using a postillion, you have to declare it and ask for a re-deal.

Please. xxx

I'm like you Tighty, I'd speak up.  I know that many wouldn't but its all to do with personal pride.  If I can't win fair, I'd rather not win.

You just have to put faith in 'what goes around comes around' when thinking about those that woudn't speak up.

Sheriff

the problem with that is, in a lot of poorly self dealt games you will be mucking every second deal....

I agree that honesty is the best policy. I was accused of seeing another players cards - I wasn't in the hand and neither was the accuser - and I hadn't seen the cards - I would have had to be a contortionist to achieve that and I would have told the player that i could see his cards and that he should be more careful.  But at least the accuser was promoting honest play.

Red is the most honest player I know - who else on an on line tourney - when the other player disconnects will sit out and wait for them to come back into the game?  I know I have raised every blind when that happens.

Is there a difference between on line and live play honesty? Do people have different levels of honesty depending on whether they are on line or playing live?

I always wait if there is a disconnection online. Doesn't everyone, seriously?

Jonny Vegas:" theres no room for a man with morals in poker"

here here

I'll get me coat then.

 8)

Nope, unless i knew the guy.

I always wait for a few minutes or so.

not if i get it first, which peg is it on? is it leather? :D

I never used to - as far as I was concerned it was free money and I had seen it so many times before that I thought it was the norm.

Then I read Reds post and since then he has sat on my shoulder - bloody heavy! In a three handed game I was encouraged by the other player still connected to raise the disconnected players blinds - i coudn't sit out because he would have just taken both of us down so I slow played for as long as the clock would allow to give the guy as much time to get back.

You know that the majority will raise the blinds and take the money - we've seen it here on a blonde tourney - and there wasn't much of a stink about it if I remember.

In live poker if a player steps away from the table he looses his hand - disconnection is slightly different admittedly - however that doesn't seem to matter to most. Correct me if I'm wrong.

discos? I need to win somehow. However I went through a stage of giving chips back to an oppo if he got back, on purpose that is.

Seeing cards in a live game, I couldn't cheat if I wanted to, I can't bluff normally anyway and I would not feel right about it at all.

I'd like to say yes, but the harsh reality is that I rarely do... if my disconnection went down and I was blinding away, it would be very unlikely that my opponents would wait for me, and so I dont feel bad about it when they are d/c'ed.

The only exception would be if I was playing against someone who either I knew, or I knew to be an honest person, then I would wait, because I know they would wait for me

Thats only in SNG's/MTT's though... if Im in a cash game and get dc'ed and that stupid all=in protection is used and I subsequently win the hand (assuming I would have folded if I didn't get disconnected) then I would send them the money back the majority of the time

Don't get me wrong, Im no angel, I've spent my life wheeling and dealing with guys that would lift your leg so high you could bite your own kneecap, and if I could pull a stroke on one of them I would, it was expected by both parties. (Buyer Beware)

Likewise, if I went into a restaurant and they charged outrageous prices but forgot to add the drinks, I wouldn't tell them.

But if I found someones wallet, I would return it in an instant, and if I give someone my word, I would never break it.

I know a lot of people who are governed by, shall we say, a different set of rules, but they have good morals and integrity, I would trust them implicitly

People hide dishonesty, cruety, racism, etc, because they have learned to, but that doesn't alter the real person inside.

You ask two people if they had ever commited a crime of any kind, one says yes, and the other says no, which one would you believe, and and therefore deem the most honest?

Being fair, and abiding by the rules in sports and games is, for me, more important than winning. It's a test of myself. If I cheat, even if I'm the only person who knows about it, the whole thing  becomes a mockery

I think this poem says it better than I can

 
 
 
THE MAN IN THE MIRROR


If you get what you want in your struggle for self

And the world makes you king for a day,

Just go to a mirror and look at yourself

And see what THAT man has to say.


For it isn’t your father or mother or wife

Who judgement upon you must pass,

The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life

Is the one staring back from the glass.


He's the fellow to please, never mind all the rest

For he's with you clear upto the end,

And you've passed your most dangerous difficult test

If the man in the glass is your friend.


You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years

And get pats on the back as you pass,

But your final reward will be heartache and tears

If you've cheated the man in the glass!
 

Great great, stuff.

Honesty, all day & all night, in every situation. There's no other way. And I can cope with being in the minority.

great post red-dog.

It got me thinking about why people are honest; benevolent; philanthrapic.

is it ultimatly to appease ones own sense of morality.

your post predominantly, accentuates the way in which you would feel about gaining an unfair advantage and how you'd reconcile that with yourself.

But what about an understanding for ones opponent.

exerting the requisit restraint from duplicitous tactics because you would honestly feel bad for the recipiant.

I think the same argument can be made for the precipitive reasons for charitible donations and voluntary work.

I think that there are three main reasons for acts of modern day kindness and veracity:

1)A genuine understanding and empathy for the recipiants plight.(the most credulous i feel)

2)exestential tendency to asuage ones own guilt sorounding ones success.

3)To try and fit in with everyone else with no real regard for the cause to which you have donated.

the point i'm trying to make is that are people moral, honest, reverent for the right reasons?

how many people wouldnt cheat uniquely through fear of being caught.

there was a post from claw i think regarding tipping ettiqute.

this for me was a simple one though the answers were as vast as they were diverese.
firstly i would ask myself, for what reason am i tipping and what would it mean to the recipiant?
the rest is easy.

I wouldnt cheat as i'm sure no blondite would.

as for thre reason for not doing so, theirin lies the ultimate insight into ones character

Now that's a great post!

Btw, you must have read that dictionary well before the dog ate it!

Very interesting topic,
 Honest poker players. Hmmmm  Johnny Chan slug in a 5k chip and claimed it was an accident “thought it was 500” and tries to pull it back TD says the bet stands and his opponent reads him as weak and calls, with Chan holding the nuts, honest or dishonest ?

Sammy Farha  flashes his AA at his opponent to get a read, is warned for doing so and told he will get a penalty next time he does it, honest mistake or dishonest ?   

So who in fact are we talking about when we say old school

I was watching a big name online cash player last year Zweg I think his name is, he was playing for a WSOP seat got it HU and his opponent disconnects and he cripples him raising every hand. The railbirds were tearing into him about it. He said something like. “I came here to win a seat, Not my problem he left, its not like second doesn’t pay well”

Are you telling me you would wait for the disconnected player to return?

All very interesting stuff.

red some off the things you say are fantastic.just look at the sentence below and really read into it and think.



You ask two people if they had ever commited a crime of any kind, one says yes, and the other says no, which one would you believe, and and therefore deem the most honest?


makes u think?
well it did me  :D

In reply to the original post, I would always declare a card I had seen and have it a as burn card / misdeal.

This reminds me of playing a live game in Manchester last year. One bloke at the opposite end of the table to me held his cards in his hand at all times, and checked by lifting this hand up and down (he'd probably seen Bad Girl Pham holding her cards like this on TV). However, he hadn't mastered this technique,  each time he checked he clearly exposed his bottom hole card to all at my end of the table. After he had done this twice I politely pointed out to him what he was doing, and I was then berated by the players on either side of me who said I should have let him carry on doing this. I disagree completely but I guess this is the attitude you'd expect in Manchester!!

However, with regards to disconnections online, I have a different viewpoint. I will happily take someone's chips who is disconnected. Why? Because any time I disconnect nobody is going to wait for me. And yes in this case I believe two wrongs do make a right as in the long term others disconnections and your own disconnections should even out. If you always wait for peope to reconnect then they aren't going to remember you and return the favour at a later date when you disconnect.

Playing live last week I was involved in a hand where I held 56 and my opponent 76.  Two sixes came on the flop and all the money went in.  Turn was a Q.  There was some talk that it would be a split pot.  The river was a 3 (I think as I was getting my rebuy out at this point).  The dealer was splitting up the money at this point and my opponent (an experienced live player) said nothing.  I did not really look at the board while this was happening, as I assumed I had escaped, until the player next to me started to point at the cards as if he was about to say something.  I then noticed that it was not a split pot, but by that time the dealer had split the pot and my opponent was saying nothing.  The player who was about to point this out said nothing and to my shame neither did I.  It was during the rebuy and it would have cost me £20 as I would have lost all my chips. 

Should I have spoken up ?

I would have had to, yes.

A similar thing happened to me at The Vic last year -  until the river it had been a split pot but I won with the last card. The dealer started to divide the chips, no one said a word, I asked to the table in general why he was doing this. No one answered. I asked again no reply. Evenyually I pointed out to the dealer I had won (I was doubting myself because of the dealers actions) and he passed me all the chips.

My opponent - who I meet often at the tables - didnt say a word and admitted that he knew but "if the dealer doesnt see it who am I to correct him?"  Since then I have always thought less of him - has no affect on him I'm sure but I do believe in this karma thing a bit and if he runs his life like that totally I am certain it will come back and bite him on the bum eventually.

Funnily enough I have recently been working with a clinical psychologist and we were talking about shame - people are often not ashamed of things unless they think they may be found out. For example littering at 1 in the morning is easier for some people than during the day because they are less likely to be seen. This is probably the same with on line poker - raising a disconnected players blinds from behind your computer is less shameful than cheating at live tables.

It all goes in degrees to - if it was for a wsop seat I'd be more likely to do it...

my view made on another thread a while back about online disconnections...


About the turning over of exposed cards then if i definately saw a burn card exposed or a card as it was being dealt then yes i would mention it - so long as i was 100% certain of what the card was. We had a gentleman at a game at the circus last week who 3 times said he saw a card exposed as they were being dealt and when the card was turned over he was wrong on all 3 occassions. To me this was just as bad as now everyone had extra information as to one of the cards that would definately not be appearing on the flop.

If i was sat next to someone who was revealing their cards when they were looking at them then i probably wouldnt say anything at the table - if that person cant keep their hole cards out of the view of the general public then that isnt my problem. However if they are doing it on a regular basis without realizing then i would probably have a word with them during one of the breaks.

A little pet hate of mine is people who show their cards to their neighbour as they are passing them, their neighbour has passed - they look down to see yet another "bag of spanners" pick them up, show them to their neighbour and say something like "see - told you he keeps giving me this rubbish" as they are being mucked. I always complain but it normally continues and no-one gets punished for it.

If I get disconnected when playing online I expect players to notice and to take advantage of the situation and would not see them as cheating me out of my money.  Likewise if i am heads up and my opponent loses his connection I would not wait the full 15 seconds every hand before raising and do not consider that cheating, nor do I feel angry when it is done to me.   If I did I'd make sure I had suitable backup connections, ISDN or modem.

In live games I would tell people if I had seen an exposed card, never crossed my mind not to.

nope , unless i knew the person then i would wait

internet is a different kettle of fish and disconnections happen all the time

I'm taking a break in my morning sit n go session to contribute to this debate. A session in which a player disconnected heads up, and I stole every single one of his blinds, without hesitation, to cake 1st place.

I believe it's important to draw a distinction between cheating and acting honourably.
Cheating is defined by the rules, in online poker these rules are clearly laid out. In live poker, less so, but positive moves are currently being made to rectify this.

Taking a course of action that is in the spirit of a fair game (but would not necessary be against the rules of said game to refrain from doing so) is a great thing and good for poker. Those who conduct themselves with this kind of honour are to be commended and I hold them in high esteem.

However, when they expect this behaviour from everybody, and condemn or look down upon players who fail to act as they would, that's when they fall out of favour with me.

You are within your rights to expect everybody to abide by the rules of the game. You can't expect them to uphold a moral code that you yourself have invented.

This is a really interesting thread, looking at the reasons for why people do things honestly.
It was mentioned that people want to win fairly, or not at all. I understand and respect this. Indeed when I'm playing live, that's the code I follow too.

The way I see it, there are two main reasons why I play poker. A desire to compete, and to make money.

Online I play 20% to compete and 80% to make money. It is, after all, how I earn my bread.

Live, it's the opposite. 80% is to compete and the desire to win, while just 20% of my motivation is to make a profit.

This is why in live poker, I'll announce when I've seen a card I shouldn't, return extra chips I'm not entitled to from a side pot if the main pot I've just won has been calculated incorrectly, and correct the staffs errors if they've given me too many cash chips than what I've paid for etc... I'm with all y'all on that.
It's mostly because, like other posters, I want to win fair and square, or not at all. Perhaps a little for indulgent reasons too, I want the respect of my peers. If, at the end of a tournament, my heads up opponent is feeling unwell, I'll be more than happy to voluntarily pause the game while they go outside to get some air and compose themselves. If this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, brucey bonus.

My prime motivation for participating in an online poker contest is neither the joy of competing, or to earn the respect of my fellow competitiors, it is purely financial. I'll abide by the rules set out to the letter. Never will I knowingly make use of a program or service banned by the online site I'm playing on. Never will I actively collude with other players to take advantage of a disconnect. However, I'll not give a second thought to honour or any percieved sense of fairness if it's not covered by the rules. I'll do everything I can, within the law, to win the chips.

A few years ago, when my financial situation was somewhat precarious, my girlfriend at the time lost her job in a restraunt. It was because she'd accidentally undercharged customers in their bill. At the time, the loss of the job made things that little bit harder for us.
Today, if I'm in a restraunt and they've missed the drinks on the bill, I'll make sure the error is rectified. The restraunt prices may be extortionate, but I know that when I sit down, they are all clearly listed on the menu.
I'll never look down on anybody who chooses not to do this. It is, after all, a personal desicion for me why I take that particular course of action.

While I have barrel loads of respect for those who opt to wait for a heads up opponent to sort out their connection. I'd ask them to respect and understand that I have reasons for not doing so. To neither look down on me, or brand me a cheat.

Now I've finished writing this, I'll go back to playing sit n gos. If another opponent disconnects on my ass heads up, I'll raise their blinds even faster than before.

;chieften;

 :goodpost:

Purely in the interest of debate this. Personally I have no clear views on who is in the right or wrong here.

Let's imagine Bad Boy Pham had a particulary obvious tell that the whole table picked up on. Say he nodded his head every time he hit a flop, and shaked his head every time he missed it. He'd get pushed off most flops and doesn't win any extra on his good hands.

If you were to point this out to him whilst the game was in progress, would the other players have a right to be upset?
It's his responsibility to protect his hand as it is his responsibility not to nod his head up and down evey time he hits top pair or a set.

Great post Tank

One comment though, You can't expect the person who didn't pay for the drinks to know your girlfriend would get the sack

Just as you could never know that losing one more game of poker could cause your opponent to commit suicide, or beat his wife up

Both unlikely outcomes don't you agree?

I am in no way defending myself here, or accusing others. If I get disconnected I EXPECT my blinds to be stolen

The main difference between our points of view seems to be that I tend to do what I think is right, while you tend to do what the law allows

When people air their differences on here, some people think it's an argument, but knowing you as I do, I'm comfortable that you will accept my comments as they are intended, in the spirit of the debate

It's not the fault of the customer, or the restraunt (although they were maybe a bit harsh) rather it's the dozy bint who didn't total up the bill properly.  :D

There's probably indulgent reasons why I do it too. I want to appear a flash git and impress the knickers off my dining companion most likely.

I would just like to point oot.....


...I think that's only true for me in the context of online poker. Makes me sound a bit bad otherwise  :D

Good post Tank.

I must admit, I do have differences in what I view acceptable in a live game compared to online.  The two variants have differences and, in some cases, you can't simply expect a 'rule' from one to easily transfer to the other.  For example, in a live game the 'one player to a hand' rule is paramount but its impossible to enforce online and it seems perfectly acceptable for someone to sit behind you while you are playing (look at the Poker Godfather programme that was on the Poker Channel - imagine someone doing the same in a live environment!)

Taking advantage of an opponent disconnecting is another example.  Regardless of the reasons for them, they occur all too frequently for it to be worthwhile taking the 'honourable' route and waiting.  Does anyone here sit and wait for someone to reconnect in a full ring game?  I doubt it.  In that case, why would we treat a heads up situation any differently?  The difference I see here is that people sit down at an online table/tournament and are aware at the time of how the software will treat a disconnect.  Some tables have protection, some don't (most sites have removed it from tournaments due to the widespread abuse that used to take place).  The key thing is its known up front and is a 'risk' you take when you sit down, the same as the risk of some idiot taking all your money with 74o!  ;goodvevil;

Personally I find the opposite problem to be the one which is morally unacceptable.  Deliberately disconnecting to get a free showdown without putting more money in the pot is the lowest level to which an online player can sink.  If I see this anywhere I report it every time without fail (and I hope that others do).

Personally, if I get disconnected in a tournament I'd expect that my opponent(s) would be taking advantage of it until I can get back online.  I wouldn't expect them to do otherwise and, in the same situation I'd most likely do the same.  I don't see this as 'crossing the line'.  Taking advantage of a feature designed to protect players in order to 'bend the normal rules of poker' is an entirely different matter.

Sheriff

Lol, If you read it another way, it makes me sound worse!

Who's to say that what I think is right, is right?

So many good, well resasoned arguments for stealing the blinds of the disconnected........

Arggghhhh!!!!

Looking back at my last post its suddenly occurred to me how I balance most of these decisions in my mind - would I like it if the situations were reversed and I was the 'victim'?  If the answer is no, then I don't do it.  If I'm indifferent then I'll go ahead.

I would guess that we make many of our moral judgements in this context, not just at the poker table?

Sheriff

Okay, here's some advice for those that have been disconnected. (Coz I'm all heart on this issue  :D )

There is a diffence between "sitting out" and being "disconnected" as far as the sites software is concerned.

If for some reason you can't click on your screen, say your monitor has exploded or the dog has run away with your mouse, your computer is still connected to the internet. The website will treat you as "sitting out" rather than disconnected. When sitting out, your hands are folded immediately and you'll likely have been practically eliminated from the tournament upon your return.

If, however, the internet connection is severed, the website will give you more time to sort yourself out. If you're on the bubble or beyond, it can give you 120 seconds for the first hand before it folds and 60 seconds for the 2nd one. This should give you plenty time to wrestle the mouse back off the dog (or un-explode your monitor) without harming your stack too badly. It's for this reason that you should consider a contingency plan if you somehow can't click on the betting action buttons. It may be an idea to deliberately sever your connection (by janking out the modem wire thingy at the back) so the site treats you as having disconnected, rather than just sitting out.

I'm speaking in the context of Pokerstars and their software, but similar things are true of other sites.



Post Script - Don't play on Crypto  8)

What contingency plans do you have - phoning a friend to play the game is obviously not one of them?

With the possible exception of fellatio.  ;scarymoment;

Sever the internet connection by removing my usb modem's wire from the back of the PC, then firing up the laptop.

Just as an aside to Tank's post, it goes without saying that the Cryptological software allows precisely zero extra time for a disconnected player to reconnect. In fact after the first hand is folded following the disconnection, all following hands are turbo folded.

Another reason why Stars is the bees knees.


(Note to Pokerstars - Give ;chieften; free stuff)

RED-DOG needs to watch out.  You are quickly taking over as the funniest person on this forum!!!

For anyone confused by Tank's reply (I had to think about it for a bit) you need to pick up on the bit in my earlier post below:


 rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao

Sheriff

No contest, RED_DOG can make us laugh without using naughty words.

But you've both now given me 'coffee spat all over the monitor' moments now!

However, I acknowedge your right to defer to the original king.

Sheriff

This is great stuff, as I expected


There is one person at Luton (old guy, miserable, always thinks the world is out to get him) who routinely shows his neighbour his cards (assuming neighbour to his right has just passed) when he is passing to a raise pre flop. Or when he is passing to a bet post flop. As if each hand is a remarkable pass etc. A sotto voce comment usually accompanies this action.

Now whether he likes it or not this is giving information to the remaining players yet to act and those already acted.

He has been warned to stop but no further action has never been taken

The player sees nothing wrong with what he is doing.


What would you suggest the cardroom maanger does about this gentleman?

Had to look that one up.......

Spoken low or in an undertone, as not to be overheard

Says, "Mr Kendall, I know your eyesight is poor but you still cannot ask your neighbour to read the cards to you."

I thought you were language cognoscenti.

you seriously didn't know "sotto voce"? You know "fellatio" though!

No Latin GCSE?

Is that the Godfathers right hand man?

Huge gaps in my knowledge I'm afraid Tighty.

Increase his medication?

it should be enforced but cardroom managers are often cutomer led and unless a real fuss is made en mass i see no reason why they would do anything about it.  Why antagonise a good long term customer unless they have to?

Obviously as he gets even older and his longevity comes into question perhaps they will rethink it!

Im not sure what it tells others though as he does it routinely anyway.

I get more wound up by players teaching at the table. Or on a recent on line cash game a player predicting that I had a full house when I made a big bet on the end, I was sucking a fish in beautifully, and the fish folding because of it and costing me $75.

If someone ignores repeated warnings, you have to follow through at some stage with punitive measures. After all, a poker player is likely to know a bluff when he sees it.

Even if it is just a small infraction of the rules.

Here's what I would do...

Inform grandad next time he sotto voce-ies (or whatever it is he's doing) that it's his last chance and next time he'll get a 10 minute penalty.
If his offences persist, slap a 10 minute penalty on his ass.

Any loss of buisness I'd hope would come back fourfold when players come to realsie they are playing in a safe enviroment where the rules will be fairly enforced.

Actually, I'd probably just leave Grandad be on that one. Choosing your battles and all that.

He would be aware of my dissaproval and be on the recieving end of a very heavy "tch" or "tut tut" after every infraction.  :D

Twas ever thus. Man commits the crime, and a dumb animal suffers the consequences.

lol

I can't spell post-ee-ree-or.  :(

Tell me about it!!! :'(

stupid organ grinder!!

i think that it only works on some sites. i played a stt on crypto and the guy got disconnected and his blind past to me so i sat out but it carried on taking blinds from both of us with neither ofus winning them, they were just dissapearing