blonde poker forum

i visited the gala casino birmingham last night along with rookieitb and tomtom.the tournament was a £30 freezeout and upon registration i had the pleasure of meeting fellow blondite dik9 followed shortly after by noflopshomer.i then ventured to the bar where i met ifm for the first time and engaged in a couple pints and a chat.
it was a pleasure to meet all 3 blondites which always seems to be the case when you meet anyone from this site (as my mum might say "we must attract the right sort of person")

the casino was nice though the cardroom was a little cramped but you could see the time and effort dik9 has put into the place and he also informed me that the cardroom was moving across to the other side of the casino where the capacity will be large

there was a capacity of 55 for the event split into 5 tables of 11 plus all tables were dealer dealt which was nice except for the obvious crampedness 11 runners and a dealer would cause round 1 table, but this would only be for the first few hands so was not to uncomfortable.

now to my point..........

what are your views on dealers? what is there job and what do you expect of them whilst playing?
on my table we had a lovely young lady who announced it was her first time. i then suggest she was a virgin and she spent the first few hands blushing  :D
for someone dealing there first table she done well, she struggled with the usual sidepot scenario but her dealing was good on what was at times a loud and distracting table.

after elimination (yes im rubbish) i became a spectator to the final 3 tables 1 of which contained the other two itb players that entered with me.
this is where my gripe begins.

i have played quite a few dealer dealt games and dealt a fair few myself as well.
my expectation of a dealer is to deal accurately, announce the flop,turn,river cards, let the active player know what the bet is and genarally keep the table moving and be polite and helpful to all players.

what i dont expect from a dealer is him/her to be to "busy" by that i mean to nosy or to friendly with any particular player on the table.

one dealer in particular who was a very fast efficient dealer wanted to be more involved in the game than his job should allow. he was constantly looking at folded cards, goading players to call or raise.calling people by names ie "its your turn raising machine" or "its your turn your folding"

at one point rookieitb was getting short stacked so waited for his moment to push all in only to be greeted by the line "do you wanna kiss em goodbye?" not from a player but from this dealer!

also another annoying habit he had was that if you won a pot and were in the next hand he would take your blind from the pot before passing you the chips you just won.

all this was done for most of the night under the eye of dik9 the TD who not once mentioned anything to the dealer so i can only assume that this is exceptional behavior for a dealer in this establishment and common practice.

the dealer in question was lucky that im rubbish and that he never had the pleasure of dealing to me at any point because i think i may of upset him on a few occasions pointing all this out to him. but as a spectator i chose to just watch and observe as i didnt feel it my place to say.

am i wrong in what i expect from a dealer? am i being a bit hard on the chap?

comments please

I think this sort of behaviour is born of an employee who wishes he was playing rather than dealing. In any case, they are hungry for action and/or wish to show off. They have no real sense of professionalism, that they are there to do a job.

It's fair enough in a £5 sit n go, where the delear is not getting paid by the house, just a player volunteering, but not when he is drawing a wage.

You see it in Cincinnatis a bit aswell. A splattering of table banter is great, but between hands please.

Dealers who look at folded cards I am seriously tempted to take into the carpark. (To have strong words with, I'm not a violent bus) After all, these guys play in the comps on their nights off.

If someone looks at my mucked cards, they fookin know they've done wrong is all I can say.

Just deal 'e cards eh?

your doing your chips the last thing you need is the dealer asking if you want to kiss goodbye to your chips when u push the rest in lol

I agree that any comments unrelated to the action shouldn't be made by the dealer.  Even if its harmless fun its a bad precedent to appear 'more familiar' with any particular player at the table than another.

On the subject of rookie dealers, this reminds me of an incident in the recent £750DC at Luton which I forgot to comment on at the time.  We had a rookie dealer on our table during this event (there were a few Blondes on the table too, including Tikay, Irish Denis and Roland De Moneybags so they might recall this too) who was very honest about this fact and who clearly struggled to keep up with the action and made many mistakes, including putting mucked cards on the bottom of the deck, etc.

Its fair to say that everyone tried to help him out in the situation he was in but after a while some people at the table got increasingly irritated by this and started to make comments.  Some asked for a dealer change, etc.  After he got taken off the table I made a (hopefully encouraging) comment to him that he shouldn't be discourage by anything he'd heard said.  The fact is that it was unfair on him for him to be thrown in at the deep end in a ranking event where big money is on the line.  Emotions undoubtedly run higher in these events and putting someone in the firing line who will quite easily become the brunt of this is not a good move.  I was dismayed to discover that after giving him a 30 minute break he was then seated at the adjacent table where the same comments soon started to be overheard.  I felt so sorry for him, as he was genuinely doing his best but was clearly suffering from a lack of experience.

I'm not sure how widespread this is around other casinos but its the second time I've seen it happen at a Luton festival event.  I just think that cardroom managers in general need to be aware of this and to seek to avoid it happening, not only for the sake of the players but also for the poor person who's doing their best to get upto speed in very difficult circumstances.  I wouldn't be surprised if the individuals in either case I've seen turned around at the end of their shift and said "I'm never dealing poker again."

Sheriff

I once moved my short stack in on a pot after four players had flat called, I had a bag of spanners and wanted to take it down there and then, but if someone looked me up I figured that at least I would have live cards.

Three players passed, the fourth was dwelling a little when the dealer piped up "You have to call, look at the value"

I called the TD over, he was happy have a word with the dealer on my behalf

The player called with A9, he was miles ahead but I sucked out and won the pot

The dealer, for his part, took the TD's advice on board, held no grudge, and always says hi now whenever he sees me


I think you have to make a stand when you see something wrong going on in a cardroom, but try to be polite about it

As my granny used to say, you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar!

good confident dealers are hard to find and il always help out where i can when i have a novice dealer on my table.
like last night the young lady i had dealing my table was new so i done my best to help her (although she dealt me crap all nite!)

but the other guy had no excuse, he was obviously an experienced dealer you could tell by his shuffling and dealing but was to interested in the rest of the game imo.

I was getting quite annoyed with one lady when there were two tables left, who kept limping and then someone would raise and she would show her cards to the guys sitting next her and ask what she would do, (it was obvious she was going to fold) but she kept doing it every hand and I had to keep mentioning that if she showed the cards to one other person on the table she would have to show them to all of us. I don't find anything wrong with a bit of banter with the dealers within reason, but them to call you a 'raising station/calling machine etc' each round  when it is your turn is unacceptable.

Anyway, you boys missed the real fun, when on the final table in a blind vs blind situation, the SB limped, and the BB raised, the SB then said, "All-in," and went to move his chips before saying, "joking," and flipping over a 72off. The dealer took it rightly as a verbal declaration and the BB made a brave call with pocket nines. (When I say it's a brave call, it's because apparently the small blind might just be a hitman for the Triads.) He didn't take this ruling from the dealer too well, and was escorted out of the building. I ended up finishing third, hit a couple of lucky hands, then got outdrawn with AJ vs AT and JJ vs QJ (though the poker gods teased me on the flop with KQT flop giving me a royal flush draw) in consecutive hands. Straight after I was out, they chopped it.

Most fun of the night though was when ifm moved all-in blind in 2nd position on my BB and I called blind and my  Kd 4s held up against his  8s 6s   ;D

Anyway, despite your reservations about the dealers, I hope you itb boys come back soon. (I was devasted I was not told I was rubbish at anytime)

homer,

what was the prize pool and what did you get for 3rd if you dont mind me asking?

Total prize pool was £1680, I got £200 for third, it was £300 for second and £540 for first, but the two remaining players did an equal split the second I got knocked out. I wouldn't have done a deal HU myself though.

Let me just say first, that it was a pleasure, to meet you all again and special thanks to the ITB crew who travelled up from Luton.
Blondites Rule!!

Now to the point above-

Your post is absolutely true and as a poker man, you have found him out, he IS an ex cardroom player, and has been playing around Birmingham for over 10 years, this does not excuse his comments during the game like "It's your turn your folding" of which I did not hear, but I can imagine the guy saying, so I believe. The dealer in question, was the TD before I started at Gala, and this was his first time in the cardroom since I started, (he is also a very experienced dealer, and DC would remember him dealing at his club in Moseley, in the good ole days LOL). Now this is where I have a little problem, not towards you or him but to the "NEW attitude of casino's (when I was trained, we were told not to engage in chit chat and to only answer questions when we were asked, however the "NEW" customer service guides of which he had recently just completed the course encourages banter with players and to befriend all, smile, greet (on first name terms), and make them feel relaxed and at home etc) This is casino's new approach, and may work in the pit, but chat at a poker table from the dealer should be kept to an absolute minimum IMO, but the customer service course, does not go into the ins and outs of poker (well at least I don't think so? I am due to go to my course in May) The dealer in question was also debriefed on this and sent back to the pit immediately after I watched the game as I felt uncomfortable with his demour.

To the other points you made-

Dealers are quite entitled to look at players folded cards, however there must be a legit reason for doing so, if there is a legit reason, then to avoid the player automatically assuming he is being picked on (if innocent) dealers will disguise this in a number of ways, even if it means looking at others cards as not to show a player he is under observation. But I would hazard a guess the motives from this dealer for doing this would be personal, and therefore unacceptable. Goading is bang out of order, I agree. But I did not see him get into that situation, again, not to say he didn't do it.

Regarding the taking of blinds out of a winning pot, this is how I expect my experienced dealers to do this, they are trained that way. It is a courtesy and also speeds up the game, rather than wait for winner of pot to stack all of his chips up then realise he has to post them. The cards can be dealt whilst he is staking them up.

ITB I am really sorry that you saw it that way, and can only apologise, and in all truthfulness it is meant to be a low stakes "Friendly" cardroom, it just got a bit too friendly and I can see your point of view entirely. Time for a rethink when cardroom expands.

Speaking of our friendly cardroom, NoFlops He was a very brave fellow countryman to call the above "All-in Joker", as most countrymen would have folded their pair of nines to him, which would have left me in a tight spot? And a different dealer to above should be commended for not reacting after a chip was thrown in his face full pelt. (For those that do not attend, this is definately not a rowdy cardroom and was a complete one off. So don't be put off!!) Just glad it was the final table so not many people saw it, needless to say customer in question will not be there to see you :)

All-in all a strange night, especially as gaming board inspector was having a look round LOL

Congrats on 3rd place finish BTW Mr Homer

Quote "...dealers are quite entitled to look at players folded cards..."

My response would be NO, NEVER!

I've had a couple of occasions where this has happened to me, and I always make a point to the dealer and TD that this should not be allowed.

Too right Rich, Vin is a top guy. Hope he was alright after that episode.  :)up

If their is a question of any collusion, who would spot it? And bring it to the TD's attention as we have to watch more than one table??

Would have preffered the full quote Winkie as it is taken a little out of context

You're right dik9.

What I should have stated is "apart from when collusion is suspected."

I disagree, The dealer looking at folded cards are our best defence against collusion.

Of course the dealer should not comment on the folded cards unless he suspects foul play

Yeah he is fine thanks, just a bit shocked...as anyone would be!
A few Italian swear words flew about though in the staffroom :)

There may be some case for this provided that....

A/ Dealers were given some training as to what to look for (besides AA and KK being mucked)

B/ Dealers were not allowed to play in the card room on their days off.


For the time being, I'll continue to scream bloody blue murder if my mucked cards are looked at in Cincinnatis.
These dealers having a look-see might be playing against me the following night.

Everyone knows I haven't got any friends so who am I gonna collude with.  :D

As stated he is a very experienced dealer (but it may have been more to do with boredom than anything to be fair, in which case it is unnaceptable)

And as a licensed member of staff not allowed to play anywhere

well done on your 3rd place mate.
yes we will return dont get me wrong i enjoy the competition which was well run by richard just thought it was let down by the antics of one dealer.

i know the lady your on about and she was doing that on my table. after 4 limpers i raised 700 on the bb with A8 to take the blinds only for her to hold her hand for all to see deciding what to do and the guy next to her said if id of had one of them id gone all in lol. so instead maybe folding she called and proceeded to call be down to the river and out kicked me with A9.
a tad naughty i know but it was the bad play of myself refusing that her ace was bigger than mine !

under no circumstance do i want this post to look like an attack on richard or that im digging at his tournament running. id like it known that the tournament was well run,tables were balanced efficiently and correctly.chips were changed up at right times and as a tournament director he was overseeing the play regularly.
the only thing that disappoints me is that richard allows a dealer to behave like but i can see how tough it may be to eradicate this with the circumstance richard explained.

i understand the "new attitude" that casinos are trying to adopt and want the dealers to be customer friendly but im sorry this dealer wasnt being customer friendly.he may have been b to a couple of players on his table that were obviously his mates but he was more rude and abusive with his comments to more newer players which i think defeats the idea of encouraging players to return to the cardroom.

i have been a bookie for a large part of my working life and have been on and have trained many courses in customer service and i cant imagine saying to a customer whose just putting his last £20 on a horse after doing the rest his money "lol do you want to kiss this note goodbye before i put it in my satchel?"
i think the guy would realise i was mugging him off dont you?

as for looking at cards im sorry i dont think this is necessary especially with no evidence of collution or any request for this by another player on the table.
i dont for one second think this dealer was looking for any form of collusion i just think he was looking so he could see who folded what to see if his mate who was playing had bluffed successfully or not.and with the faces he was pulling while he was looking suggested he would do well in a gurning competition :D

as for taking the blind out of a winning hand i understand this may speed things up but i feel if i won the pot i want to recieve the full amount if only for a few seconds of which i think imentitled to and if i was on the table i would request the dealer stopped doing it.
im not sure whether i have come across dealers doing this before or not but i dont think its a widespread casino dealer thing.

i have no problem with card rooms being friendly and i love a bit of trash talk and banter at the table and give as good as i get but i think the line is crossed when the dealer gets involved.
whether the buy in is £30 or £3000 it should be no different the rules should be the same.a good dealer runs the table keeps it moving and shows no favouratism and certainly shouldnt comment on a players actions.

looks like things got a bit out of hand after we left but im sure richard sorted them out correctly like any good TD does.(all in a nights work eh mate)

All taken on Board, and can completely understand where you are coming from.

The taking of blinds is an old school thing and something I agree with though, its like on blackjack, when someone has an 11 and hands over £20 and old school dealer will double for you as that is your intention and then give your change back. The action is going ahead regardless so therefore we do it out of courtesy. I cannot see why you want all the chips only to be giving your blind back? But if you mention to the dealer that you don't like it, then he won't take it, and everyone is happy.

Rude and abusive is definately something that needs to be addressed also his gurning :D Will have words!!

Was this chap called Tom?
The dealer on my first table was continually rabbit hunting after folks folded and when someone was dwelling up he would place his hand behind the pot and start to push it to the raiser before the other person had folded in a "your folding he's won" sort of way.
He didn't bother me at all as few things do dealerwise but i could see how these small things could annoy others.
Well done floppy, i see my doubling you up blind did the world of good ya big fish.:D
It was fun and i shall be coming back if only to get my revenge on the pillock that called my allin for all of his chips with J7 FFS!

The only thing that actually annoyed me big time last night was when someone would raise, and then everyone folds and they would always show one card which was always an ace, surely the most pointless show ever. "Wooohooo, I've got an ace, I am the bee's knees."

P.S ifm - Watching that young lad with the iPod come to our table and proceed to donk off his entire 12k on our middle table in two hands, firstly after making a big raise and getting something between 3-1 and 4-1 to call and instead folding, then bluffing the rest the next hand on tilt with 7 high. Bloody hilarious.

Yeah daft play because when he went allin after the big pot he lost EVERYONE on the table knew he had rubbish and was steaming.

I had a go at a dealer at one of the london clubs, for looking at my cards i'd folded
and I told the TD who told him off , but it never stopped his attitude after that

Dealers should be courteous, friendly and knowledgable , but they should not look at cards unless there is a showdown situation or they fear collusion,but they should always get the TDs approval anyways

If they only ever look when collusion is suspected then looking becomes a kind of insult to the player.

AS RED_DOG says, it's has the potential to be a good defence against collusion.

If they have to check with the tournament director before looking at cards, it becomes impractical.

If there were a random check every now and then by a dealer, it wouldn't insult anyone (or be less likely to) and it may serve as a deterent.

I'll reitterate, not in places where the dealers also play please.  ;tk;