blonde poker forum

Hi all...

Not been present for a while so just thought i would say a quick hello..can not read all the posts as way too many to read..but i see some good results  for blondes....I am off to play in St Marteens on tuesday, 1st time out of the country in 15 months, ( due to family commitments)...by the way..back to the subject.. for those of you that know Reece (my grandson)and attended his Poker 4 charity event last May..he is doing ok...the doc';s say he is very advanced for his age, and don't we know it...lol...unfortunatly he faces some major surgery in the new year as his liver is not too hot at the moment. To update you that attended the event at the Western Club in May 2006 in aid of Reece we would like to say a big thanks to all those that donated,especially Spin Palace who donated £3500.00.

 We have received in total £600.00 plus a donation from the Western club owners on the day of £300.00. (who also made their card room available for free)
The hospital that treats Reece was supposed to be getting a donation too, but this has not materialised. But a big thankyou to all those that attended ..so in total the ammount recevied was £900.00....thanks all..xx


Regards Maureen THENUN

 :hello:

Hope you enjoy your trip.

Tx Rooky ..and tx for your donation at Leeds too..xx

Hello Nunny xxx hows Stacey :)

LOL down kev down...she has her ups n downs but she is mostly up.. she is beyond words... a star in my eyes..she copes better than me..xx

Hi Mo,

Good luck in Maartens, have fun!

I'd be there with you but the poker gods decided I wasn't worthy...

Room in the case Donk...for you any day..xx

That girl is an absolute star, im sure you are very proud of her ... send her my love xx

Great to hear from you Maureen - some good news in there and fingers continue to be xed for the future.

Hope things go well in St Marteens - have a blast!

 8)

 :hello:

Best wishes to you and good luck in St. Maartens!

Good luck Maureen  :)up  and  :kiss: to brave little Reece

Tx all.. and messages will be passed to Stacey & Reece..tx all..xx

Good Luck and best wishes to Reece :)up

Cheers Dewi....xx

Hello The nun
Although I have not had the pleasure of meeting you,I have read all your posts about little Reece,after each post I have read,it puts life with my own children into perspective of how lucky myself and Pete are to have two healthy children.

I hope all goes well in the new year with Reece.

And I would also like to say how well you seem to cope with it all,I think people forget that as a grandma you have two things to cope with ,the pain of a sick grandchild,and also the pain of seeing your daughter try to cope with it too.

I wish you all the best and hope you and all your family have the best xmas ever.

Take care now
Shelly
xx

Hi Maureen, lovely to hear from you again and wishing you and Reece all the best.

I missed the event at The Western, but how much did P4C raise for you guys ?

Thanks Shelly.. cope.....well...that's a matter of opinion..one copes as they know how and it is really strange how you do cope.. i would say that in the past (pre Reece) i would have said a very similar thing..or asked the question " how do you cope" ..but you do..you have to..there is no choice..love takes over..one goes in over drive....this is how i am coping..

Tx ..xx

 :hello: Maureen and welcome back!

Glad to hear you and yours are as well as to be expected (and better lol), but do you know how long it should take for the donation to reach the hospital? I would have thought it should have gotten to them LONG ago!

Jane xx

Hi Maureen, you have been missed, welcome back :)

Estimated around 7k in total ...received £640..plus £300 direct donation from the Western Club to Stacey on the day..but this is my estimate...no one said exactly how much was raised. We were told that the event was in aid of Reece alone and that all donations would be spent in liason with us.  The total received in aid of Reece was £940.00, which was paid direct to Stacey.

So you haven't had a breakdown as yet of what was raised?! I assumed, like you did, that it was an event to raise funds for Reece alone, and I'm sure also in the original thread it said you would be consulted as to where the funds would be going.

Hopefully someone from P4C can shed some light onto what has happened! I assumed (wrongly it would appear) that Stacey would have received more than just £940.

A couple of quotes from the original BLONDE thread and the URL to it:

           PAGE ONE


     PAGE FIFTEEN


http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=9505.0 (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=9505.0)

Yes Jane you are correct in that more than £940 was indeed raised although it was not as much as £7,000 and don't forget that half of the money raised in the tourney itself was returned as prize pool. Although some did give a proportion of their winnings back including one person who returned ALL of his winnings!

We are arranging a grant to Booth Hall.

Just to explain we do not give donations as such but grants. Whilst it is easier to give a donation by simply writing a cheque there is then no knowledge of where that money goes and so it was decided at the outset to only give grants for specific named and agreed projects which we have to agree with the recipient. This by its nature does make the process longer. We are in the process of doing this with the hospital concerned but they do need chasing and I have asked for this to happen next week.

I have sent a PM to Maureen to explain where we are with this which I hope will ease her concerns.

The specific grant will be given by Game For Life as the registered charity and will be in the names of Game For Life and Reece. When this is finalised it will be published on our website and as the matter has been raised here I will post confirmation on Blonde also.

I hope that this clarifies the situation as far as possible at the moment.

Andy. (Chairman - Game For Life)

Cheers Andy, clears it up nicely  :)up

Tx for repling to Jane but it still has not been stated as to how much exactly was raised, Trace quotes London poker girl as saying 4750 was raised on the day, does this take into account the money donated from Spin Palace 3.5k plus 300 from the Western club owners which means that the actual rebuys and the auction raised £950.00.

Forgive me, I apologise if I've got this wrong, I'm not the sharpest knife in the draw.
I'm not casting any aspersions here, so indulge me please.

As I understand it, we are 6 months down the line, Reece has received only £640 from P4C, the hospital has received nothing as yet, and Maureen doesn't know how much was raised.

Are those the facts? If so, surely there must be a better way.

6 months is a very long time when you are struggling to cope with a sick child.

As someone who was there and who did a ridiculous amount of rebuys in support of this wee boy I would also like to know why after all this time the hospital has not received a sizable cheque?

I know I put just short of £200 (and im one of the skint ones) in the pot and tighty who was sat next to me put in WAY more than me.

Even taking off 50% for the prize money I have to agree that this sounds a bit fishy.

Perhaps Davey would be kind enough to give us all an update?

Just to explain we do not give donations as such but grants. Whilst it is easier to give a donation by simply writing a cheque there is then no knowledge of where that money goes and so it was decided at the outset to only give grants for specific named and agreed projects which we have to agree with the recipient. This by its nature does make the process longer. We are in the process of doing this with the hospital concerned but they do need chasing and I have asked for this to happen next week.

I thought the the event was to raise funds for this wee boy, his family and the hospital taking care of him....was there not time enough to sort out the hospital before now?

Here I go again making enemies sigh

The Chairman of G4L just did give an update!

where on p4c?

Im not trying to upset anyone anyone here coz as you know James I am a great supporter of p4c and attend as many live events as I can.

I made a point of going to this event and donating as much as I could afford. I feel for Stacey and Maureen and wanted to give what I could.

To find out after all this time its not been sorted is to be honest DISGUSTING.

(gonna end up billynomates at this rate)....snatty can I be in your team next event?

Morning all. I've been offline almost 3 weeks due to a combination of issues - most of them good. APAT developments Event Two, blonde & 425, a blonde deal with DtD, new Techies lined up, old techies sorted, and, on a personal level, an enormous amount of things have gone off, most of them good, including progress on the return of 425, and developments for me at Poker Night Live and elsewhere, news later today or tomorrow, latest. Been playing a bit, too, gotta keep that balance at my age!

So pardon my absence. I'm offline most of today, too, back properly tomorrow I hope, but I must just comment on this P4C & Maureen issue first.

Give me 10 minutes to write up the Post, please.

Both blonde, & myself, have been very supportive of P4C, both directly & indirectly. However, I did not donate to this cause, nor did blonde, this was a concious decision which I explained to Maureen at the time.

Several blondes are P4C Mods, some blonde Mods are tied in with P4C in some way or another, many blondes support P4C. So, an emotive issue, if ever there was one.

The "do" at The Western.

It was Maureen's impression (for Maureen & Stacey, read Maureen) that the money raised at The Western would all go to Reece, directly or indirectly, being half to Stacey to help care for Reece, & half to the Hospital. That was my understanding, that was the understanding of most of the Corporate Donors to whom I have spoken, & most of the blonde donors appear to have been under that impression.

However, the P4C website says, words to the effect, "money raised will go to help Reece and kids like him". And, as Trace quoted earlier in this thread, see what it says at the very end of the sentence.......

".....A couple of quotes from the original thread and the URL to it:


Quote
That is why the proceeds of this event will be spent by Game for Life in consultation with Maureen and Stacey. The money raised may be spent specifically on Reece, they may go to the service providers who have helped Reece and Stacey over the last 15 months or it may be a combination of the two. Every penny from this tournament will either help Reece, his family or kids just like him......"

So, as you can see, it is a little complicated, & there is room for a major misunderstanding here.

What IS clear is that the Hossie, to whom it's apparently agreed that half the money will go, have received nothing. Weekly phone calls to the hossie confirm this. It now emerges that, apparently, the Hospital are said to be holding things up, but the Hossie strenously deny this.  It's sortable, clearly, send them the cheque & it's "job done"! No point in arguing about this - give them the money & it's sorted.

As to Maureen? (Read, Stacey & Reece). This is terribly distressing for them. Never accepted Charity before, & embarrassed aboiu asking whats what, & where did the money go. They thought 50% of the money raised would go to Stacey & Reece directly, but the P4C Website suggests, as I note above, different. But it still may all go to them, in time, we don't know, as there is not much transparency here.

What to do?

I chatted to the Management & Owners of The Western about this. They were appalled that the money raised never went directly to the Hossie & Stacey. (They gave a personal cheque for £300 DIRECT to Stacey, so their money hit the intended target). Remember, The Western generously allowed their premises to be used for the event.

The Western have agreed that we need to solve this problem, & get this money to Reece via Maureen & Stacey, so I have chatted with The Western to see how we can raise some more money, & I will keep you informed.

ALL THIS MONEY, 100%, WILL BE GIVEN TO STACEY. No room for misunderstanding there! Details will follow as soon as I can sort it.

In Posting on this thread, please remember this at ALL TIMES.

Reece remains a very sick boy.

This fund-raising misunderstanding has caused Maureen & Stacey huge personal distress & worry.

I just want to help them, & put this thing to bed in a satisfactory manner. It mut be hell to have a seriously sick child, & Stacey & Maureen deserve our help.

Later this week, tomorrow in all probability, I shall announce new rules for all Charities who wish to raise money via the blonde Forum.

Big thanks go to Tom (Red-Dog) who has been tremendously supportive to Maureen throughout on a personal level.

OK, I have an appointment at 10.30, I gotta go, but I will try & get back on line around midday or just after, prior to going down to Luton this evening. If anyone wishes to discuss this issue with me at Luton tonight, please feel free. I have a whole bunch of info on the subject, and it is not as straightforward as it may seem.

Lets discuss this issue with a view to sorting it, please.

To avoid confusion why doesn't the charity at least send the cheque they promised to the hospital, very easy thing to do - and get that out of the way? How can that be difficult - find out who it should be paid to and send it - I will pay for the stamp if necesarry. You have to assume that the money is just sitting in the bank waiting to be distributed?

If no joy - who are the charity answerable to? I'm not here to make enemies but money should be distributed as promised - come on P4C - reasonable answers accepted.

what an awful situation, made worse it would seem by the very vehicle that's 'supposed' to help: P4C.
i'm appalled that such an organisation can behave in such a manner.
disgusting.

*waves* thenun, good to see you. gl with all this.

Disgusting. How many of us who attended the event would have given so generously if we'd known this would happen? We could have given directly to Maureen to ensure it got to where we believed it was going.

When Tony and I first discussed this issue several months ago, we agreed that allowing a charity to conduct a campaign via the blonde forum burdened us with a moral obligation, a duty of care to try as best we could to ensure that any money raised by our members would be used in the way that those donating intended. That remains our position.

I would just add this, I have been down the "Seriously ill child" route, and I can tell you from personal experience, it is a living nightmare.

Maureen and Stacey have enough to cope with at the moment, so please, for their sake, let's keep this debate civil and sensible.

Message to all


I've deleted a few posts from this thread that use language that goes way beyond what we regard as acceptable on blonde and I will contact those people individually to explain my actions

As we can see this is an emotive subject that not only touches many of us on here who know Maureeen and family but also because many blondes, both moderators and members, have connections with P4C. Many also donated at the event, me included.

The good news is that this should allow an open debate on the issue. For example Andy Donn the Chairman of G4L posted earlier on the thread, which I think is to be welcomed and is encouraging. I thank him for that.

I would ask most sincerely that despite emotions aroused by the thread that the tone is kept civil, inflammatory language is not used and we allow all parties to debate openly should they so wish, so that a solution is found speedily for Maureen and her family.


Thanks

Well said Tighty  ;iagree; :goodpost:

One real minor thing I've been wondering about for a while regarding P4C.


The "Wall of Fame" doesn't appear to have been updated for at least a year and a half?

Does anyone know whereabout on the Poker4charity website they detail how much money was raised at each event and how it ended up being used? I have had a look myself and can find nothing. I would have thought most charities would be upfront about how much money has been raised and who it was donated to. Its the first thing you would expect to see in a post event report.

I can't believe the direction this thread has taken.

Things are being hinted at here that are bang out of order.

My loyalty lies with P4C, always has, always will.

I don't have the answers you are all looking for.

And I can't smooth any ruffled feathers.

Nothing is as it seems folks.

Emotions are running high on all sides, this all could of been handled so differently, but the damage has now been done.

Not much else I can say really, so maybe I just won't.

There is indeed a page on the Game4life site detailing who has received grants from the charity,

http://www.game4life.org/index.php?page=grantsawarded&parent=grants

but what I was referring to in my previous post was somewhere detailing how much was raised in total at each event,

E.g. 2004 NECS - £xx,0000
      2004 Xmas - £yy,000

Why is this info not available? I am not suggesting anyone has stolen anything, but it must be either incompetence or a deliberate decision to not publish it.

i have deleted all my posts on this matter as to the old saying
"INOCENT UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE"
all i know now is that I'm sure 1000000000%  that little Reece will now get what is overdue to him . as this normally is the case when it is brought to peoples attention,and if this is the fault of the hospital then they should be told of this little boy who's been waiting 6 months.......good luck Reece and god bless you mate....
                                                         James

I'm sure you are right - I hope you are Trace - like you I always want to assume the best about people, but it does seem strange that this charity is late in filing it's company return as well......come on gameforlife just reply with answers and this will all dissappear in a flash - not answering makes it all look more suspicious than it is - hopefully.

Andy Don is in the process of posting on this thread.

Does anyone know what the relationship is between Game for Life and Game for Life Enterprises Limited?

Sorry I haven't post again when clearly a lot has been said here - I'm meant to be at the office!!!

There is clearly some misunderstanding here to say the least which I am going to try to clear up. There are also some comments on here (some have been removed) which are more accusatory and I am taking these personally. If that is not the correct thing to do then so be it  but I have personal and emotional reasons for being involved with P4C and Game For Life which I will not air here.

There has been a difference in interpretation or understanding as to what we set out to do in this event. 8.53pm last night was the first I knew of this as a problem however and I have spoken to Maureen by PM and assured her that I will am looking into the event to see if any errors have been made either by us or due to unforeseen circumstance that we can both rectify and learn from.

To the matter at hand.

When Davey confirmed the details of the event I was delighted that we would be in a position to help fellow poker player. I had met Maureen before and liked and respected her which of course helped!

To find out at this late stage that rather than helping at all but to quote Tikay causing distress is very upsetting to me personally.

Now that I am aware of it I can try to do something about it - but as far as I know no-one at P4C knew of the problem until last night.

Turning to the hospital money - matters are I think clear but not as Tikay has outlined them.

I tried to confirm the difference between a donation and a grant in my earlier post. It was a conscious decision to only award grants so that we knew what the money we gave was being spent on as far as possible.

So the money we give is by way of grants for specific projects. Where possible we like to buy what is needed and pass that over - if this is not practical, for example, the purchase of specialised medical equipment, then we will give money but only a distinct and defined purpose. I whole heartedly believe that this is the correct approach.

In the case of Booth Hall we have been asked, more than once, to go via the hospital trust by the people on the Ward who Maureen asked us to speak to. This includes a call this morning that I asked Davey to make to confirm that we had not got it wrong.

This is a matter of fact. This may (I am unsure) be due to the awarding of a grant to the hospital but that is the Charity's rules and I cannot change them. We must also adhere to the hospital's rules.

I do not want a cheque to be sent to the main mailing address at the hospital with no knowledge of where it is going. I want to know precisely what it is being spent on and if possible that it is going to the Ward that Maureen asked us to earmark.

CONCLUSION - I will try my utmost to sort this out and am sorry that I wasn't aware of it sooner. This is important. Tikay seems to have had the time to speak to everyone concerned other than anyone at P4C.

If I had known about this earlier I would have done something earlier and some of the embarrassment and distress could have been avoided.

(Tony- I have PM'd my number - please call me - there are matters in your earlier post I want to discuss with you personally.)

Thanks all for listening. I will post on this subject again when I have positive news.

Andy   (Chairman - Game For Life)

Game for Life enterprises limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of the charity game for life.

This is because of charity legislation on charities trading. For example oxfam shops are run by a wholly owned trading company of oxfam the charity

Thank you

Andy - thanks for the response - I for one would like an even clearer reply. From the money collected on the night what has been already donated and to where? What is remaining and what are the charity's intentions with this?

I understand what you are saying about ensuring that money donated to the hospital goes to the right place - how much is this please?

My intention with these questions is not to accuse, merely to clear up outstanding questions and remove any doubt about the charity from any blonde members minds. I think that answers to these questions would probably achieve that and help future relationships with the charity. Look forward to your reply,
Tracey.

errrrr   they wouldn't have been if some muppet   (me!) hadn't forgotten a signature and they were returned. They are there now.

:goodpost:

Yes Tracey I know....but that will take longer.   Bare with me.

James

Andy is answering posts and questions as fast as he possibly can. 

Can we PLEASE have some patience on this thread?

Actually this isn't alway quickly and easily accessible - but given the concern I woudl be disappointed if we didn't hear this sort of information by tomorrow.

No I cant James.

Individual items are not listed in accounts.

In addition can I confirm that I am atrustee doing this on a voluntary basis. I run a business (or try to). While I was writing the above post 5 clients called me. As I am meant to be working I will have to deal with them!

I am trying to help....it is still less than 24 hours since I knew of a problem. If anyone is dissapointed then that is unfortuanate....but I will do what I can!

andy i appreciate you have a business to run,cant you ask "the truth"  davey  to come on here to answer these things questions which really are being directed at his charity???? because if it were my charity, i would be first to answer any questions asked by anyone.is this not unreasonable???

Davey is at the hospital im afraid.

Ang

Can I just re-iterate Trace's comment regarding patience on this issue.  Andy has provided a detailed response and promised to follow up the issue and I have no reason to doubt that he will do so when he is in full possession of the facts that he requires.  Please bear in mind that he has a full-time job in addition to his duties to P4C.

We've so far restricted deletions on this thread to the more extreme posts made but there are a number of other posts and comments on here that are provocative or unconstructive.  I would re-iterate Tighty's earlier request that the debate remains civil and that we allow Andy sufficient opportunity to make further enquiries as he sees fit.

This is a very difficult thread for us to moderate as several people have links with both blonde and P4C.  By all means, debate the issue in a constructive way but please do not make our job as moderators any more difficult than it already is.

Thank you.

Sheriff

He doesn't post on Blonde anymore.

i do understand what your saying sheriff... but what questions can we ask without offending anyone ? this is a very serious accusation,,,they did a charity doo, the people didnt get the money... whats the assumption? they lost it, paperwork,a mix up?? if reece or the hospital didnt get the money where is it ..this would show up on a tax return or a v.a.t. return ....im standing on theres no smoke without fire...

any reason why mate i see him watching a lot lateley

Is that really anyone else's business?

Again that is me and not Davey, I log into blonde on his pc and his log in name.

And be calm everyone -  I'm sure that now the questions have been asked the answers will follow. Lets just wait...... ;whistle;

James, I and the other moderators are asking you to back off a while please, let P4C answer the questions when they are able as promised by Andy Donn. He is an honourable man and is plainly resolved to sort this out for Maureen and family's peace of mind.

If you are then unhappy we can go further at that point

Until then, allegations, insinuations etc have to left well alone.


Thanks

My point is that Andy has already responded and has also committed to return with further information ASAP.  He has also stated that he was unaware of any issue until yesterday evening.

It think its only fair to allow him some breathing space to make the enquiries he needs without further inflaming the situation, hence my previous request.  I don't think it will help anyone on either side to resolve the issues if the thread deteriorates into a flame war, and it certainly has the potential to do so hence the numerous appeals for calm.

Sheriff

Just want to backup what Tighty and Sherrif are saying, the thread was started on a forum on Sunday night, it is now only Monday afternoon and Jaggers is at work, it would be a bit unfair to expect him to have already solved the issue!

Even if it was a direct question to P4C it would not have been sorted this fast, it is not a big time charity with full time employees.

Give Andy his time, i need him to be able to sort this out rather than respond to all the posts on here so he is available to add some dead money to the $100 FO on Blue Square later :D

this is my last post on this till the answers come in.....in no way whatsoever am i saying that andy is at it i want to make that very ,very clear.what i am saying is
1  why has this money not shown up on any overpaid accounts?
2  why has it not been detected on any vat returns?
3  why dont the owner of the charity come on here and defend his self?
4 why hasnt the little boy or the hospital recieved the money?

thats all.
i really dont think that is unreasonable...this is my last post till answered if anyone wants to discuss this further they can pm me because i think i might get my answers on here deleted or i will be banned for speaking my mind......

No one is talking about banning anyone.

Just give it some time please, and hopefully your questions can be satisfactorily answered.

I have asked for this thread to be locked down until Andy can return with the answers to the questions already asked.

As far as I know this is being considered.

Andy has a lot on his plate right now, and so may not be back as quick as you are all expecting, but I can assure you all HE WILL be back with answers to the questions already posted.

I am BEGGING you all, please be patient.

Thank you.

Apart from not being at a computer why should he be expected to answer questions on a forum that has nothing to do with P4C.

I am not saying answers should not be given but this is not the correct place to be askign questions, if you have a direct question, which it seems you do, then i would suggest you either post it on the poker 4 charity forum or contact P4C rather than this unrelated forum.

I share your desire for answers about this, i really do, but i wouldn't stand in Hyde Park and start asking questions about it then be surprised when Davey doesn't reply!

Just to clarify, blonde, (and I would imagine P4C) have no objection to fair questions, as long as they are asked in a civil manner and you are patient in waiting for a reply.

With respect James, an appeal was made on the blonde forum, and blonde members made donations. I see no reason why anyone should object to questions being asked or answered on here.

A fair point. I was not objecting though, i was trying to make the point that this is not the best place to ask. Especially since Davey no longer posts on here.

We will of course welcome questions on the P4C forum too, but they won't be answered any faster on there than they are on here.

But before anyone decides to post on there, please be assured we won't stand for any flaming or accusations on there either.

Any posts of that kind will be met with the same treatment they have received on here.

Trace

Just thought I'd nudge gently - any news yet?

To reiterate from yesterday!

Any news yet Trace?

You want a civil answer or the one I have on the tip of my tongue?


For the record, yeah I do have news, but Andy will post it.

Hooray! Looking forward to good news  :)

I would like to apologize to Davey and Ang for my " jumping in with 2 feet and not knowing the facts" posts.

I honestly thought that these events were a case of counting the cash, cashing the cheques and Bobs your uncle...job done.

I have spoken to Ang via email and I know she is very upset about all this and for that I feel really bad. She also took the time to explain thats its all a bit more complicated than I thought, and as she said "It will all come out in the wash"

I have always admired what Davey and Ang have done in the past and have supported them whenever I could. I will continue to do so as I was never in any doubt about their good intentions, I just couldn't understand the time factor and opened my gob before putting my brain in gear.

Im sure it will all be cleared up shortly....but for my part in all this I would like to say SORRY.

I too am very sorry that Ang is upset Suzanne, but at the risk of stating the obvious, wouldn't it be better if she explained to everyone else what she explained to you?

I've just spoken to Andy Donn, Chairman, Game 4 Life.

He has the requested figures.

But due to having had a hell of a day and being completely knackered, he won't be posting them until tomorrow.

Would there be any reason why you don't get up off your backside and go to him? Let's just wait - Jeez. Sometimes, if you complain, you can wait fourteen days for a reply and that's to a big company who have a complaints department. This guy is being very patient and polite and asking for a bit of time.

Respect his wishes and also those of Trace - just back off. Please consider Trace's request for a lock down. This is quite distressing.

Done m8.

Its not a matter of sides, its just something that needs sorting out.

 :goodpost:

Another post deleted

It looks like there will be a post tomorrow with some facts and figures that will I trust help resolve the issue.

Until then, the mods here will continue to delete inflammatory posts with insinuations and references to matters that are raised off public areas of the forum.




 

for 1, i wouldn't need to get off my backside if the information from POKER 4 CHARITY was TRANSPARENT and open which myself and a lot of other people DONT think it has been......

OK then folks......here are some facts and figures as far as I am able which I hope will clear up the concerns expressed on this forum.

The total amount raised through the poker event after the giving of prizes was £2,437.50.

In addition personal donations and miscellaneous monies (including the raffle) increased this to a final total raised for the event as a whole of £3,165.50.

Other than money paid to Reece for a specific purpose agreed with Maureen and Stacey, this money is still available.

Some is for the awarding of a grant to Booth Hall Hospital and some still to go to Reece. As to how this is or should be split I want to speak to Maureen about this.
It has been suggested here that the split was understood to be 50/50. If that is Maureen's wishes then I am happy with this but this was not my understanding at the time and of paramount importance to me is that the money is granted in the way that Maureen and her family want.

To clarify the situation with the hospital I personally called them yesterday and received EXACTLY the same responses that Davey has in the past. I am therefore waiting for THEM to call me back. If and when they do I will confirm this to you.

I also want to put on record that I am personally distraught not at the questions raised here nor at the suggestions of how we might have avoided this situation, but at the way they have been voiced. I am going to devote time to a separate thread or post to comment on this fully shortly.

I have previously explained how money we raise is distributed by grant rather than by donation and I do not intend to repeat myself.

To reiterate however how the money has and is to be distributed is and always has been something that we wish to do in accordance with Maureen's wishes. As you know she is away at a poker event at the moment and I will hopefully speak to her when she gets back and discuss this with her (and congratulate her on a wonderful final table performance in St Maarten  (I cant find a fingers crossed smilie but insert it here!))

Other questions that are sensibly put and understandable I will of course try to answer.

Andy.

Andy if you say this money is still available to Maureen and Stacey,why still have they not received it, dont you think its been a long time to sorted?
OK if the hospital wont take it (strange) but if you've personally spoke to the hospital and they wont except it, then thats their prerogative.



1 last thing if this is OK to ask ,what was the responce that you had from the hospital when you phoned them about this matter? the EXCACT same answer that Davey newth has had in the past,(you didn't say)and what would have happened if this were not brought to your attention ?

Yes to the first point. I do and if we have delayed this, unwittingly I emphasis, then I can only apologise.

Where I think we have fallen down as it were is in not contacting Maureen to keep her informed as to the efforts being made to distribute the money and take her wishes. Again I would block any distribution to anyone of this money in any way without her express agreement as that is what we intended in relation to the event in the first place.

The hospital have NOT said that they don't want the money, however they have there own rules about accepting grants which we need to adhere to and we are waiting for the specific person who deals with this type of matter to come back to us (and have been for some time.

and to answer your amended post.......

Ive made it clear what the response was. There is a specific person who deals with this and they are not available but will call us back.

To repeat this is the SAME response that Davey has had both in the past and in the last few days when he has called also. I am NOT in a position simply to send a cheque addressed to the hospital. If we still have no response when I speak to Maureen then I will ask HER what she wants us to do.

Am I being thick here? £3.5K from spin palace > £3165.50??? Or was the spin palace donation in US $?

my understanding was as follows:

event on day made 4700, half to prize pool (I was there, donated heavily via rebuys and saw money counted by three people, and then got £500 or so for finishing second. Lets say a standard payout structure gave 2nd 20% or so, so £1000 gross seems about right)

spin palace donated 3500

raffle, further donations made x (not sure)

how do we arrive at 3150 only?


Sorry Andy, but I think a full breakdown may be required.

Andy

Thank you for responding again.

One obvious question which I can see from the content of this thread is that Maureen's original post mentions a donation of £3,500 from Spin Palace poker.

The figure of £2,437.50 you quote in your response implies that the total amount raised (assuming a 50:50 split to the prize fund) was £4,875 which appears consistent with the reports on the thread at the time (which quoted £4,750 as the amount raised on the day).

I assume this figure of £4,875 is therefore the amount raised from player buy-ins on the day, but does not reflect this donation from Spin Palace.  Could you please confirm this is the case and, assuming so, could someone please clarify what became of this donation.  Did P4C receive these funds at a later stage?  Perhaps AndrewT could also clarify the position from Spin Palace's point of view with regard to this donation.

I ask this because this donation appears to me to be the cause of the perceived discrepancy in the amount of money raised from the event.  If it is part of the £4,875 total then that means only £1,375 came from player's buy-ins on the day.  It is a documented fact that one blondeite single-handedly contributed £680 in buy-ins which would mean that the remaining 40 odd players (from memory) on the day only contributed £695 between them.  This appears to be a low figure which is why I assume that the Spin Palace donation is not part of the total you have quoted.

I'm asking this, not to cast aspersions at anyone or to point the finger.  Its just that, with my accountant's hat on, this looks to me to be where the discrepancy lies between Maureen's perception of the amount raised and the figures you have quoted.

Sheriff

very good questions,but still,, regardless whether it be £10 or a £1,000,000 pounds why STILL has there been no payment ? too the hospital or reece ?? nearly 7 months...

From what I am aware Spin Palace's donation what partly for their Corporate sponsorship of GameforLife, this starts at £1000 per year.

As a point of further clarification to everyone, I was lucky enough to win the event on the day.  I've just checked back into my records and these show the 1st prize money to have been £890.  Using my earlier assumptions, this would represent 36.5% of the total prize fund of £2,437.50.  This doesn't look to be an unreasonable percentage for a 1st place distribution so would appear to me to be to be consistent with the figures Andy has quoted regarding the prize pool raised on the day.

Sheriff

and to reiterate, my share of prize monies for second place seems consistent too

any answers to any of the above please ?

I can clarify the position with the donation from Spin Palace as follows.

The donation was brokered by Andrew T, who works for Spin Palace.

I believe it was the intention of Andrew and Spin Palace that the money went to "the Maureen/Stacey/Reece" fund/cause, howsoever it was decided to spend that. (We know that Maureen was under the impression that the money was to be spent 50/50, 50% direct to Reece (via Stacey of course) & 50% to the Hossie).

However, Andrew/Spin Palace never specified that the money was to go to the Maureen/Stacey/Reece fund, even though it was their wish that it would, because they had only got involved because they become aware of Reece's plight on blonde. But so long as it went to P4C related causes, their view is OK, that's cool, though they intended it to go to Reece, and are disappointed if it did not, but as long as it went to a P4C worthy cause, Spin Palace/Andrew are fine with it.

One can now see how these misunderstandings can arise, & why Jagster omitted the £3,000 from the total figure raised for Maureen.

The actual (and most generous) amount donated by Spin Palace was, if my recollection is correct, approximately £3,500, in two payments, being £3,000 for the Charity, (P4C), & £500 to G4L Enterprises Ltd, for Administrative expenses.

what would £500.00 be for expenses when it was all given free by the western  ??

Ok, the bit I don't understand.

You say have offerd a grant to the hospital which they say they are not in a position to accept

Then you say you will not make a donation to the hospital until you have agreed with Maureen how the money is to be split

Then you say you have not contacted Maureen to find out how she would like the funds distributed

What happened to the donation from Spin palace?
 

This is all correct.

I just assumed that when I was asked to sponsor an event, which was clearly stated as being in aid of Reece/Stacey, and put money towards it, that's where the money would be going. As Tikay said, there was nothing explicitly stating this in writing, it was kind of implied, which is where the misunderstanding arises from.


The £500 was a payment to the Game4Life business - as Ang explained earlier there are very strict rules about how charities can operate. They are a business with staff/running costs etc, and the £500 was for this - it has to be paid separately from a pure donation. For example, there was a trophy for the winner of the tournament - this was paid for out of the £500.

I think a lot of people made that assumption, I certainly did.

i was told by ang that she runs this business single handedly on a wage of £155.00 a week.......written in her own hand...sorry if im mistaken but black and white ....is normally right.....

I might be able to help here.

There are expenses involved in an event like this, such as the trophy. There are also travel and accommodation considerations for the trustee's at these events (and when the trustee's meet outside of these events)

Earlier in the thread, Jagster wrote.....

"......CONCLUSION - I will try my utmost to sort this out and am sorry that I wasn't aware of it sooner. This is important. Tikay seems to have had the time to speak to everyone concerned other than anyone at P4C.

If I had known about this earlier I would have done something earlier and some of the embarrassment and distress could have been avoided.

(Tony- I have PM'd my number - please call me - there are matters in your earlier post I want to discuss with you personally.)

Thanks all for listening. I will post on this subject again when I have positive news.

Andy   (Chairman - Game For Life)......."

I would comment thus......

"tikay has had time to talk to everyone". The reality is slightly different, & most folks know I have diary & time problems. But I DO have time to listen to everyone who tell me things, & read all the PM's & e-Mails I have received from various folks about this matter. So no, I don't have time to talk to everyone, but if info is sent to me, or I am told things, yes, I have time to listen.  And given the position I hold in blonde, one can understand why blondeites would decide that I am the person with whom they should rise their concern as to money raised via blondeites. And lots of them did! So yes, I have a handle on folks concerns in the matter, & I believe I have presented the facts as I know them in a wholly fair & even-handed manner.

Jagster (Andy) asked me to ring him & chat, & I have done that. We had a most amicable conversation over 30 minutes or so, & that has improved Andy's understanding of some issues. We have agreed to talk further in due course.

I think it's fair to say that Andy now better understands my position.

I wouldnt have thought there would be a problem in ensuring that the £3000 does indeed end up where Spin Palace wanted it to go. If the other money (the part going directly to Maureen, Reece & Stacey) has not been given out I assume the £3000 hasnt been distributed through grants to other causes as yet.

Edited after a reply posted as I typed. I find the fact that the money has already been spent extremely concerning in the light of AndrewT's post.

I do NOT run the charity single handedly, I am just a volunteer for the charity, Davey is the only one that takes a wage of the £155 per week!!!

Ang x x

This would be great - as I said earlier complete transparency in these issues is essential when there has been a misunderstanding.

There is nothing as clear as real figures, and unless you are a city fund manager it's difficult to fudge the facts. ( This is a tongue in cheek joke about Tightys former career)  ::)

So a full breakdown of monies received, what has been spent already - if any - and where,  and what has been earmarked for other projects if the intention was not to use it for Reece etc.

Lets keep it nice and simple, if you want to send 1/2 to the hospital can you confirm how much half is - thanks.

Tracey

What is really needed is a full breakdown for every P4C event, not just for the Reece event.  A quick look at the Grants page of the Game4Life website shows roughly £10,000 value in grants has been awarded across all grants awarded. How much has been raised in total, not including corporate or private memberships?

I must say personally that I find it very odd that the Spin Palace money is not going to Reece/Stacey/Maureen as it was intended, even if it was implied not specified in writing

I am pretty certain from the tone of speeches and conversations at that event that every layman attending was under the assumption that the generous spin palace donation was for the cause for which the event was held.

I though accept that there is a misunderstanding on this and do not apportion any blame for it. It does though highlight that greater openess in such matters would be welcomed

Agreed - and if it hasn't been apportioned to anything else surely the charity wouldn't have any ojections to it going to the recipients the majority of people thought it was going to in the first place? Thsi is why I think clear info about what has already been used would be very helpful - saves a lot of confusion.

Dingdell, it appears that the donation has been spent

Insofar as P4C & Maureen/Stacey/Reece/The Western are concerned, (as opposed to wider issues raised by, for example, Alright Jack) the entire debate is really encapsulated in this paragraph by Tight End.....

"....I am pretty certain from the tone of speeches and conversations at that event that every layman attending was under the assumption that the generous spin palace donation was for the cause for which the event was held....."

I have not spoken to a single individual who thought anything else - everyone understood/thought/assumed that all the money was being raised specifically for the stated cause - improved care & quality of life for Reece.

And from such acorn-size misunderstandings, mighty oak trees grow.

Like when you think you have Aces?

sorry, tony but everyone is going on about how much,, i know this is a major factor,but surley a more important note is that why hasnt the money been given !!!!!! this stinks and i feel sick that this could happen to a little kid in need.come on p4c sort it out please

James (Sofa----king),

It's my belief that all the money (about £7,000 including the Spin Palace donation) raised on behalf of Reece will indeed find it's way to him, & to the Hossie (split 50/50). I'm an eternal optimist, & I've spoken to all sorts of people on this matter, & it's my hunch that it IS gonna be sorted.

Agreed.

A lot has been said on this thread and appreciate that there are still plenty of questions to be answered. However as Maureen is now away I don't think we are going to make too much progress in reaching a satisfactory conclusion. I am of the view that we wait until she gets back and discusses this further with Andy.

As a person that runs a charity, www.sfcharity.co.uk and have also sponsored a P4C event, in my opinion only, I think the key issues are:

1. Company Stucturing
My charity is not owned by any trading company (such as G4Life) as 100% of all the administration expenses are paid for by my company, sf group, so 100% of all proceeds go to the "good causes". P4C does not have the benefit of a "subsidising company" so have set up G4Life to act as the management company, I have no problem with this as long as ZERO profit is made from the administration expenses and a full breakdown is available to the public.

2. Expense Estimates
Estimating expenses for an event are not good enough, the exact cost should be retrospectively charged with evidence and full back up. Personally, I do not like this set up, I prefer to donate to charities that do not pass 100% to the "cause", OR for a specific item.

3. Proceeds
If this was an event for Reece and the Hospital Ward, all proceeds should have been given to Reece and the Hospital within 7 days of the event. If it was a general P4C event, where P4C allocate the proceeds, this should have been made 100% clear and from these posts, it could have been made clearer.

4. Giving Money
Not donating the money because you have not been asked for it, or do not know where to send it, is not good enough.

5. Customers
In any organisation, commerical or charity, your "customers" must be treated better than this. In this case, the customers are the donators, and the donatees, and there is enough bad feeling here to make P4C review its systems and transparancy.

6. Resources
Running a charity is a serious job, not a part time job. You are asking for people's hard earned money, and their trust, being busy in your own commercial business is irrelevant.

7. Being 100% Accountable
One complaint from a donator or donatee is "1 to much", a charity must be 100% accountable. To continue raising money for good causes, you must maintain the highest possible level of credibility, P4C has not.

8. Specific Projects
I agree with G4L that donations should be spent on specific projects but what the proceeds from an event are going to needs to be made 100% clear to the people donating in that event.

In summary, I believe that P4C / Game 4 Life needs to improve its administration procedures, communciation and transparancy to its donators and donatees. I do not believe for a minute that anything "unethical" has gone on here, just poor systems and controls. I am sure that this thread will will prompt P4C to take a step back and review its operations. P4C and G4L should not take this personally, but listen to the comments. No rational person can argue that this particular charity project has been handled well.

Rob 
 
 

 :goodpost:
With yet another request for transparency come on G4L do your stuff. Provide the info and put peoples minds at rest.

There have been a lot of posts since I last logged in.

I have already given as much assurance as I can that all of the events surrounding this matter will be investigated and action taken.

I have spoken to one of the other trustees and can confirm that we are taking steps as soon as is practical to put this in order as far as is possible. This will not happen overnight but WILL happen as fast as it can.

There are other people to speak to and information to gather. As soon as we can report further we will but in the meantime I have to ask that you give us the time to deal with this in a correct manner.

I have spoken to Tikay (as he has said) and to other people involved the event and believe me action will be taken to rectify this.

Andy

And I think, at this juncture, we should indeed give Jagster some time to respond in depth, as he has suggested he will. We should also appreciate that Ang has her kids to look after, & her hubbie is in hossie, so I believe Jagster should be our point of contact.

I havent read through the whole thread yet but dont understand the hospital not being able to accept any money, I worked in NHS finance for ten years so have a bit of experience in this.

Hospitals have what are called trust funds for any donations that people wish to give that are ringfenced off totally from normal budgeted funds (and saving cuts), generally if you donate to a Ward then the Ward will get those general funds to use as they wish, normally it would be used for equipment whether a tv for the patents a new blood monitor or whatever.  However you can specify what your donation goes towards for example large donations from a will might be specific that it has to be on a capital project for children or whatever.

I am surprised there is any issue around this aspect of the donation as this is pretty standard for any NHS trust.

I have been at a P4c event and seen how passionate davey was about it, I would be very disapointed if anything untoward is going on.

Edit after reading the thread,  there are semantics over a grant/donation I think above still stands you can make a grant (its money to a trust fund however you want to dress it) and specifically say what it must be spent for, again this doesnt seem unstandard from my experience.

Any further news on this yet?

more than 24 hours I suggest, as I expect there are some big issues being addressed

they distribute big issues as well ?

Any news?

I have not brought the Lap top with me this time as we need a complete break, so i have not option at the moment to reply in full regarding my so called confusion on the funds raised. I was told that this event was an event with a difference to what P4C usually hold as it was in aid of one single person opposed to the usual events held for ie a hospital etc...Yes we are very dissapointed that at least 2 of the cheques were mislaid and also all of Stacey personal bank details were mislaid as Davey did request them in order to set up a DD. This did not materialise, but when i return and speak to Jagster i will post further. Reece faces some major surgery that is not very succesful in be Uk very soon, his livers are also failing so it will be a hard time for us. thanks for everyones su;pport. Regards Maureenx

I would like to add, I too would like to see where Spin palace donation went if it has been decided without any consultation with either Stacey and myself to spend it on other projects. Sorry if we have offended people with this event but rest assured after this is cleaned up as it were i will no longer post on here if I have upset too many folk but this is my Grandson here who is a very sick boy and I am so frustrated that this has taken to long to see funds and it does make one feel like we are beggers. this is the first and LAST time we will ever accept charity.

Please don't say that Maureen. people want to help and Reece may need it.

I know you are upset and frustrated, but I think I can safely say no one on here blames you for anything.

Hi Mo,

I hope this mess is sorted out quickly and to your satisfaction, Reece, Stacey and yourself deserve better than this.

Please concentrate on enjoying your holiday and take down one of those comps, you deserve the break and should be enjoying yourself.

Patrick

 ;iagree;

Maureen

You have offended absolutely no one. I am sure you will always be extremely welcome on here

Many blondes were proud as your friend to attend the event at the Western and donate what they could. They all share your anger and frustration I expect.

;iagree; please carry on posting Maureen , we all feel for what you and your family are going through  :)

I am sure P4C will eventually be very gratful you have highlighted their shortcomings and that is why they have posted their intentions to change the way they do certain things in the future.

Sometimes people have to ruffle a few feathers, tis a good thing as long as its done in the manner 'most' of this thread has flowed.

Have a good time Nun :P

Maureen, I don't really know what to say. I can imagine how hurt and frustrated you are feeling right now. I believe you have been let down by p4c so far because if I remember rightly the p4c tourney at the western was mid-may this year and it's not December and not a lot has been done. I attended that event specifically because it was to help you, Stacey and Reese and I think all of the other people that attended were under the impression that all money raised would be going to your family and the hospital.

I can see what a tough situation you are in here but please carry on posting on the forum. I don't think you have offended anyone, I mean, how could you? You were only asking where the money had gone/what was being done with the remaining funds.

Good Luck with everything, especially Reese's new surgery. I'm thinking of you and your family.

Sophie xx

Maureen i have never met you,but i know a lot of people that have,and they have all  said you are horrib oops ,the most genuine, caring family loving lady,a friend could want, if you decide not to post on here again,i will never speak to you again,we all at blonde were very moved and touched at little Reece unfortunate circumstances,but i would just like to say that most of us here would love to be able to help in some way whether it be kind words,a listening ear,or a few quid.
now you go and sit by the pool and enjoy a nice long island in the sun.and forget all about this business,
 I'm sure that  POKER 4 CHARITY  will have put everything in order in a day or two,as now that everybody is aware of their situation. its just very unfortunate that POKER 4 CHARITY    forgot,mislaid,misunderstood, or for some other reason,didn't sort this out sooner so that this didn't blow to where it is now...........

god bless you and your family and of course little Reece I'm sure he will be in all our prayers....

Maureen- no one judges you in any way regarding this. This is not your fault, and Blonde would be a sadder place without you. This will get sorted, I for one feel strongly that this will now get sorted out - if it doesn't it won't stop here. Questions will be asked and calls made.

Take care, have a good break and bring the spondoolies home!  :)up
Tracey

BUMP

hey come on, the last post on the thread is 7pm, its now midnight on a friday night

Please don't be unreasonable

I have complete confidence that answers will be forthcoming but it is just going to rile people to see bumps and requests for news every few hours.


ta

1. The time on my computer is wrong
2. Not being unreasonable, just taking peoples minds off another thread........I know the answers are coming.

Likely to be no posts from P4C this weekend at all, they have an event in Scarborough.

Is Malc-M still part of P4C

Regards 

M

No mate he stepped down a while back

North Angel requested that the PM's sent from her to Maureen (The Nun) and copied here be removed.

We consider this to be a reasonable request and therefore, we have removed them.

There is however, no reason why Maureen, (in the intrest of fairness and clarity), cannot post along the lines of "Ang PM'd me and said....etc, etc"

Angie PM's me on the 6th of December saying that a full breakdown of how much money was raised at every 2006 P4C event and how it was spent would be available within two hours...

Ang has now PM'd me again to say she didn't appreciate me posting the above post. It is now not Ang who will respond with this info, but Andy. Sorry Ang, but its better I let people on the thread know this rather than have them thinking you are ignoring it...

Either they are ignoring it, or my watch is fast!

I understand the reason for removing my posts and are fine with this. I will not post more on the issues for the time being.

It was not the Posts themselves Maureen, it was the reproduction of PM's which we felt was likely to be deemed as provocative, and which had resulted in a complaint. It is a fairly difficult thread to Mod, (and that's putting it mildly!) but presumably the goal is to ensure Stacey & Reece get what they are entiled to - however that's interpreted - rather than to fall out with anyone, hence the action we took.

This whole thread is now farcical.

I agree Fred this is not an Ideal thread.

Having looked at the P4C and G4L website. I hunted down the grants page.
I'd like to ask G4L or P4C what % of each £ donated actually ends up going to a good
causes. Could you donate 10% in the £ to good causes and still be a charity?.

Hope it's OK to ask such a question.   

Just like to say good luck to all those involved in sorting out things quickly
and amicably.

Seasons Greetings

Regards

M

Hmmmmm, P4C have not handled this well which brings hope that the issues being faced are down to incompetence and nothing else.  I am not sure how they can let such a period go buy without responding.  Each days delay makes them look worse.

I explained previously why there would be a delay. Unfortunately it is the nature of threads on forums that earlier messages can get lost so I will explain again.

I have gathered over this week a host of information, some of it contradictory but all of assistance.

You all know what I am doing as you have had my assurances on this matter. I have met some blondites but by no means all and I hope my word is good enough on this.

I am meeting with Tony K later this week and will be meeting/speaking/corresponding with Maureen as soon as she returns.

One thing that I have always done I hope is that when I am dealing with someone on a personal or private matter I do not discuss it with others, even less post it on a public forum, without that persons express permission. I have always thought that correct, some might not agree with me, but I will continue in this way.

The most important person in all of this is Maureen (and family). This affair came to my attention a week ago. If Maureen had been here I would have spoken with her then. I will do on her return. Following that I will let all of her friends and supporters here know about it - depending on her permission.

I have friends here, including Maureen. I hope to god that I still do after all of this. I have promised that I will sort this out and I will.

Andy.

I have stayed well out of it on this thread (until now) because I have been known to speak my mind a little too much on issues like this but I think you need to get your act together. The way maureen has been treated is unnacceptable and at the end of the day she has enough on her plate to be worrying about this sort of thing. Rob said that charities need to be fully accountable and this in fact is part of UK Laws covering charities. I have not attended any P4C bashes so none of "my" money has been missused but i would feel conned if I had. Everyone who went to this do seemed to be under the impression that it was to help Maureen out and even the corporate sponsor was under the impression the money was to be spent either by Maureen or on Stacey, surely it cant be that hard to spend a few grand?

I will not post on this thread again as it seems to be getting abusive at times but I would suggest to resolve this issue you give this every spare minute you have before one of the parties involved contacts the charity commision and starts something way worse than a thread on a forum.

edited by me- stuff it I will continue to post on this thread if its not resolved. It makes me feel very uncomfortable all of this but why the hell should I be party to silence because its a touchy issue.

Bandwaggon? I'm from Bolton (as you well know) not Burnley and I didn't realised you are now ruler of the world and I am not allowed to comment on something.... ah I now see you have decided to remove your post having a pop at me for fear of really getting me involved in this, probably wise.

When a thread about women mods can reach 28 pages inside a day (yes I was involved with a lot of jesting and winding people up on there so am partly responsible) yet a thread which in effect about a "missing" £xk can only reach 11 pages in a week you should realise that a lot of people have been biting their tongues on this. I feel a lot of restraint has been shown by many blondes on this issue and this is a situation that if not dealt with will not just go away. Dress it up however you want but there is no "bandwagon", questions have been raised and when a question is raised about a charity they are either answered by the charity itself or by the charity commision after an investigation.

just for clarification, the post to which ariston refers was removed by the poster, not the mods

 ;iagree;

Swoon...................................THUMP!!!!

great question M

there are so many bogus charitys out there mate,its unreal.

(im not saying that p4c is bogus by any means)(i think they have raised money for good causes)

i know there was a young lady that used to come to one of my warehouses every friday with flowers,she had a badge on that said she gave half her profits to
ty hafan, a massive charity in wales,i must have spent ££££££ with her,after about 3 years she got expossed to only giving a 5% donation (every now and again)(when it suited her)   
i hope this has answered your question mate.
 

seasons greetings to you too

Trace, who asked you to remove your post?

Is it a secret then?

Only if asked to remove it via a PM.

post was up for less than 3 minutes and I have recieved several pms from people all wanting to know who posted then removed. I know none of the mods would have asked to remove the post so I would assume its Ang (forgive me if I'm wrong). None of this is any of my business as I have given nothing to P4c (which I am really glad about to be honest- I donate to charities direct before anyone thinks I'm heartless) but I will say just reading this whole thread has left a very nasty taste in my mouth and there isn't usually smoke without fire. Any charity should have a full set of accounts available when anyone questions its integrity (I haven't questioned anyones integrity but several people in this thread have). If the funds are all still there then a week (the length this thread has now been running) is more than enough to have sorted this matter out imo. If I had donated in anyway to P4c I would have already contacted the charity commision to let them confirm everything is above board as anyone reading this thread can clearly see there are several "grey" areas that need to be explained.

Like Ariston, I havnt commented on this topic until now.
I really hope p4c get this sorted asap and Maureen gets ALL the funds from the event at The Western.
Then i think questions like below need answering asap.

Answers to simple questions like these would help p4c no end.
And to be honest things like this should be on p4c website in the first place to stop any questions being asked in the first place.

Just a thought but I have an old stars account (empty) that I don't use anymore. If any of us would like to help maureen out maybe we could transfer "donations" to that account and I will gladly give someone like tony the password so he can transfer the funds to himself and see maureen gets all the funds str8 away. I am sure maureen wouldnt accept this but if we all did it through an old dormant account then all donations would be completely annonamous so she wont know where the few $s have come from. I think we should try and make this christmas as special as possible for the little one and if we could do our bit in any way I am sure it would be appreciated.

If tony agrees to this I will give him the account name and password and he can change the password so only he has access to this and will make sure all the money donated will go straight to maureen. I for one would love to give something to help make this Christmas as special as it can be under the circumstances.

Thanks Russ, I know that many people on here would like to donate in some way or other, I'm sure something can be arranged. The fact remains though, people have already donated, and are anxious to see that the money they gave goes where they intended to go, and were led to believe it was going.

great idea m8,or what you could do is put the money in that account let me play on it for a few days multiply it by 20 then give it to mau,,,,,,,,,,,ok second thoughts, stick with your idea lol.nice gesture ariston.

nice idea Russ. As someone who donated that day at the Western I'd donate again in a flash.

 However as RED emphasises I would like to see all money raised that day go to where we all want it to go first and foremost and await adequate answers to all the points raised along with everyone else.

On a wider issue, as raised by several people, open disclosure of policies as to expenses and costs must be a key objective now that it is seen to be operating below what I consider to be good business practice.

In particular, just as an outsider but one with a financial background in analysis of companies, I find the transfer pricing policy between money raised in the name of P4C at events and then given by G4C to good causes to be opaque in the extreme.

Its a bit close to christmas for my liking to wait. I will kick in a donation to start the ball rolling. I am not willing to wait for P4C to answer the things being aimed at them as this could well be the little ones only christmas. Please could one of the mods contact Tony to check he will facilitate this as I would like to help out as I am sure many others would. The account is sat there and can be put to a good use. I dont want to facilitate it myself as I feel tony would be the most appropriate guy to get the money straight to Maureen without a fuss being made.

tikay will be online later, send him a PM Russ.


And for final clarification, no blonde moderator asked for trace's post to be deleted in which she referred to the thread as a "bandwagon".

A very good gesture Russ.

Sofaking, 20x! You wuss i could spin it up to at least 50x!

i woulda only played three hands though lol

LOL Fair play!

Having looked at the P4C and G4L website. I hunted down the grants page.
I'd like to ask G4L or P4C what % of each £ donated actually ends up going to a good
causes. Could you donate 10% in the £ to good causes and still be a charity?.

Ok

PLEASE can you answer this question when you have some time,
It is important as I have actually donated in good faith to the
G4L P4C charity.

Best Regards

M

There's a policy?

wrong word possibly.

yes is the simple answer to the question

some charites in the past have gotten away with donating less that 7.5%

i have been a big supporter of P4C

but i am a littel upset to hear that 10k was given to good causes but wages at £155 a week (£8060 a year)was paid

any charity i have helped out with in the past have given atleast 90% of all money raised to the needy

i personally would like to see full accounts of what money has been raised and how much have gone to the needy

how much is awaiting distrubtion and how much has gone on expenses

if more than 15% of money raised has gone on expenses then i feel its time to wind up P4C and for a more effient process put into place

I don't think people coming on and expressing their disapproval is jumping on the bandwagon. People have a right to express what they feel.

I travelled down from Scotland to play in that tournament, spent an amount of money that may not be a lot to many high-rollers, but it was a lot for me. Fizzing, would be the best way to describe my mood when I heard this news.

Also, having personaly solicited doantions on behalf of P4C earlier this year, in the form of sponsorship, I'll feel kind of silly if not enough of that money has done any good.

I stepepd down as a mod on their board last week, I was originally intending to be quiet about having done so. Torn between my personal outrage, and loyalty for P4C. Having thought about it, I think my loyalty lies with the charitability of uk poker players, and not the organization that is it's current face.

I think the people behind the charity are good people, and all the poeple involved mean well. I'm pretty sure about this. I'm not confiedent that it is being run effectivelty though.

Questions have been raised here and in other places, questions that need to be answered. Over and above the Westerngate scandal, how much money is spent on expenses and administration, and how much is really put to good work.

People who raise concerns here are not "anti-charity", they are not being indignant for the sake of it, they're not waving pitchforks and this is not a witch hunt.
UK poker players are generous people, if this charity is not working, we need another one.

i may not be as well spoken as these guys above me but i can assure you my heart is as big as a lions.
the only thing i can say in my own words on this subject is

                I CAN SEE THE LIGHT !!!!!!!

I said that after too much whacky backy one night.

But then again, I also saw a few goblins and fairies too.

I have already said that I understand why the post containing personal messages had to be removed and that maybe I have gone about this in the wrong way but at the end of the day ask yourselves one thing, if you had been part of an event to raise money from blondes in aid of a member of your family i feel them blondes had a right to know how much we had received,therefore, all i did on my origianl post was to let all the kind hearted folk who did donate to the cause know how much we had received and to say thanks as i felt that after such a long period we probably would not be seeing much more money. It was on this site that i first came into contact with p4c and it was on here that most of the folks got to know about the event hence my post on here and not P4C.. Maybe i should just every month pm'd Ange/ Davey for the money, but in pm's from them, where there was misplaced cheques , either ange was poorly or then davey was poorly then they were moving into new office premises so i sure as hell am not going to myther people for funds when they are ill. At the end of the day like i stated in my post that was removed i have not accused them of stealing monies all i say is that we are appaled that monies raised have been spent on other causes opposed to Reece.

What I don't understand is why P4C felt the need to divert funds from this appeal to other causes.

It seems like everybody who attended, as well as Spin Palace themselves, thought that their substantial donation was solely for this cause, so what motivation is there for sending it elsewhere?

I just want to say to Maureen, sorry all this has been happening, and I hope that it ends in you getting a result that you are reasonably happy with.

**hugs**

heid
xx

Has it been spent elsewhere thou.

My thoughts are with you and Reece Maureen and I hope you make Christmas as special as it can be. I don't personally care about any of the other stuff in this thread, the main thing is to give the little one as good a time on this earth as possible.

I can add a bit more now as i have topped up my internet card as we decided against bringing lappy, bad move.   Ariston .. i know your idea of raising funds is totaly from the heart and we thank you so much, but please can we request that this doesn't go ahead we are all very emotional at the moment and apprehesive about all this and exactly what we have started off here with  my origianl post.  A lot of you have pm'd me and I thank you all for that too but I am unable to answer everyones at the moment due to this internet jobby here, but when i get home on the 18th i will.  

the spin palace donation was quoted earlier in the thread by North Angel as going to two named other good causes

no problem, if those are your wishes Maureen then I wont go against them. I can honestly say this is the only time i have ever had a lump in my throat at any thread on here, when it comes to kids I will always try to help out if I can. It is disgraceful imo the position you have been put in and I wish you all the best.

It has made us all a bit nervous of accepting funds to be honest, and so many folk on here have already donated towards Reece on the original day.

My thoughts were that if any donations were put into a central stars account (ie my old dormant one) then the lump could be transfered to you direct completely annonamously. Nobody apart from Tony would know who had donated what and there wouldn't be a fuss. Obviously though I understand your position and I hope I haven't caused any offence with my suggestion. Charity is a strange thing to accept and I was only suggesting it because of the extremely special circumstances.

I am meeting the Chairman of P4C on Wednesday, at his request, to discuss this. I don't know why it falls to me to meet him, but I'm more than happy so to do, & I will travel up to Stoke to have the meet. I am confident we can sort this out.

I will Post on here as to how the meet goes.

makes me feel a bit better about the situation as at least it will be sorted before christmas.

That is unforgiveable.

its seems barmy to me too

I cannot after this time recollect the exact words used in the speeches that day, but P4C did nothing to dispel the view of all of us that the generous spin palace donation was heading towards family and hospital

http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/publications/cc20.asp (http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/publications/cc20.asp)

As I am the one who says it as I see it in almost every circumstance I will be the one to say what a lot on this thread will be thinking (forgive me if I'm the only one).

Wheres the money from the do that was for Maureen and Reece? £940 just doesnt do it for me.
If the rest of the money is still there for gods sake take your chequebook to the meeting with Tony and put this matter to bed once and for all.

nothing else needs saying as far as I'm concerned.

Ariston - pm'ed you.

firstly i would like to say..my sympathys go out to stacey and reece and the rest of there family..i hope everything works out well for you all....
i have known andy donn (jagster)about 5 yrs.....he is an honourable man and if he fails to keep his word to deal with all of this..it will be the first time i have known him break his word..i ask that people give andy the time to do wot he needs to do...i spent the weekend with andy..and i know how upset he is by it all and how determined he is to ge tto the bottom of it all....

this very public debate on this issue will tarnish the reputation of those connected with game4life...but until we all know the facts..was that a very fair thing to do..i think not...reputations can take a lifetime to build and 1 careless word to shatter....until all the facts are known i beg that people cease from speculation..wait for tikay to meet with andy and pray that everything is sorted to everyones liking...speculation at this point will only cause lasting damage.....

for those of you that dont know me..i am not a member of game4life...i attend there events..just like i attend many other events...but i do know those that run game4life...and i know how hard they work..and that is why i beg for all specualtion to stop until after tikay has met with andy....


anyway ive had my say now...hope ive not offended anyone in the process....

seasons greetings to u all..................................

That figure will be slightly higher as there will be employers costs to add.

I think that they have had more than enough time to put this thread to bed.  The questions being asked should not be that difficult to answer.

I think Satcom's got a point.

Jagster's meeting with Tikay tomorrow, this has been known and arranged for a few days, I really doubt that pushing him for answers before that is particularly helpful.

I find it odd that people would begrudge someone £155 per week (even with employers ex's and other ex's on top) whatever the % of the total budget that represented.

If wages = money given to good causes then, since it's not a zero sum game we can say that money given to good causes is greater than zero - this is good. There may be a line where this makes no sense, ie taking 1 million to raise 1 million is probably slightly unjustifiable, taking 10k to give 10k to good causes is 10k up on someone sitting around doing nothing and nothing being raised.

All the points about transparency and clarity are fair and like Satcom, I've met all the people at G4L a few times so am very hopeful this will be resolved -  and I hope my confidence that it will be is well placed.

But getting antsy about a wage of £155 per week is just a bit silly

I don't have any problem with that wage, and I have only met 2 folks who have, though both of them speak from  a position of considerable knowledge & experience in this field. The wages are not the issue, in my opinion.

Yr right that it's not been made big mention of but it was mentioned a couple of times - the nature of the thread may mean that people silently assent to the view that the amount given versus amount taken is not appropriate.

So I give my tuppenceworth. There are bigger issues maybe, but they've been well covered in what's been written so far

Yes, I see now, point taken.

This may be true where charities don't already exist. You could argue that new charities, with their additional expenses, actually detract from the total amounts disbursed. If P4C didn't exist, would it have been possible for Maureen's family and the hospital to receive donations? Of course it would.

I cannot see this thread going any further untill Tikay travels to stoke.

regards

M

Most charities pay their employees although some do work on volunteers alone. Although when you attend a specific fund raising event you would expect one hundred percent of that money made on the day and all donations (IE. Spin Palace) should go direct to the cause that the event is for.

If the money is taken away and wages deducted from the total, this then (to me) becomes a sort of business, these people not wanting to do it out of the goodness of their heart. Although any costs the charity incurred in setting up the event should/could be deducted from this total. Or maybe the charity could of donted the setup costs of the event.

Either way its a total minefield and I hope that it gets sorted for all the people involved. I don't know anyone involved and have not attended any events (not that I didnt want to - just didnt know about them) but I would feel agrieved if someone took wages out of my donation on the day, in fact I would be furious.

The Spin Palace Donation was a two-parter - £3,000 to the Charity, & £500 to "the business", for, one assumes, expenses. I have no argument or quibble with the £500, though I think that doing it that way does muddy the water considerably as it makes the "how much in the £ raised goes to Charity" an impossible question to answer. For the purposes of "The Western Affair", the Spin Palace donation has been accounted for as £3,000 towards the total of just over, by most calculations, £7,000.

Wages for Charity Workers? I have made my point on that, I see no problem with it, not at all. But Rob Yong, who knows a thing or two about running a Charity, tells me he strongly disapproves of charity workers being salaried, if the salary comes out of "donated income". I think Iron holds similar views.

Anyway, lets await tomorrow's meet. I feel an obligation to continue to mediate in this thread to keep it fair, balanced, & even-handed,&  I'd like to thank my fellow Mods for doing the same. You cannot imagine how many PM's on the subject we have fielded!

i have no problem with people taking a wage for raising money

my problem is the ratio between expenss and the money going to good causes

ideally IMHO the good causes should get 90% of money raised as a minimium but

think 85% is a reasonable figure during lean times

Thanks Iron, & my apologies if I misrepesented your views.

Are you saying, in effect, that between 85p in the £ & 90p in the £ is, in your view, a reasonable ratio? (Thats 85p or 90p to Charity, 15p or 10p as "overheads/admin costs").

seems about fair to me tony that figure although I would probably prefer to know before I donate anything. If a diclosure is made that says 90p in every poiund is going directly to the cause then at least everybody would know where they stood.

LOL percentages not your strong point boss?

close tony

i am saying that i think 90p in the £ miniium is the good causes get

when times are lean (ie  high unemployment etc etc) i would go as far as 85p but thats exeptional circumstances

if a fund raising charity cant manage that then its time that the fund raising took a different direction

Quite the opposite Mr ifm Sir! But in these matters, it's imperative to ensure there are no misunderstandings. Trust me, I'm in territory I understand fully here.....

The main problem with the wage issue for me is this

The amount the charity takes as wages/administration costs is neither here nor there, IF the people making the donations have free and open access to this information at all times. Then, they themselves can determine whether this is the most cost effective way of making a donation.



If the amount taken is a set figure, i.e. a wage instead of a %. It seems to me that this could result in a situation where in any given month, the amount raised could be say. £1000, and the wage/admin bill £800, so only 20% of donated money would go to the beneficiary.

IMHO, it then becomes a business and not a charity.


If people know where their money is going beforehand, and have the ability to check that it did indeed go there afterwards, no one could possibly complain.

I think as Ariston said there are a lot of people biting their tongues at the moment.

I was 1 who went to the Western/p4c event and a few other events too and I, like many others are waiting for the outcome.

No amount of money is going to make Reece better but I hope we can all pray that he keeps on fighting and will pull through.

So can we maybe turn this thread around for the next 24 hours and wish Reece all the best and let his family know that we all feel for them and hope he will get better soon.

Seconded. Reece is not at all well, & it must be just awful for the family.

We wish them all a peaceful, content, and healthy Christmas, & 2007.

Re Simon Aces Trumpers post.

Thanks all, not too sure what to say after this thread too. We need to await Tony's meeting. Being over here is a problem as i am a bit cut off. It just shows how warm hearted you all are. We will be so glad when all this is over and the presure of it all subsides so that we can face whatever the doctors decide needs to be done to Reece with clear as minds as possible to give both Stacey and Reece the support they need. Reece is still home with Stacey as she is trained to admin some of the extra antibiotics he requires at the moment but it is because of these infections he keeps getting that a decision had to be made in the new year as to which surgery they will attempt.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank both Red Dog and Mrs Red for their support and Tony for trying to sort this out and meeting Jagster today. Whatever the outcome a very big Thanks.XXXX

I Havent ever posted on this forum and have chosen not to until now. To the people that this money should of been paid to, and i beleive will be going to in the near future, you have my deepest sympathies, no one likes to see children ill and it truely was a worthwhile cause that this money was raised. I am a staunch supporter of P4C so much that we started raising money down in cornwall for the past 6 months, i have attended many of the poker4charity events and i beleive alot of children benefit greatly from this. I know for a fact that both Davey and Ange have been unwell in recent months so perhaps they are guilty of letting things slip a bit. The tone of some of the posts on this forum and others around the Net is very disturbing though, alot of people have been treading on ice with some of the comments they have made, I have personally deleted many messages as a mod on p4c of people accusing davey of what basically ammounts to theft.

Maureen, Stacey and Reece, i am not a spokesperson by any means for poker4charity, but i truely believe this matter will be resolved very soon, and i wish you all well for future.

As for the people on this forum that have vented there fury, i respect some of you opinions and hope you are all satisfied soon.

With regards to the people that have been sending pms to others threatening to give Ange and DAvey the hurt back that this has caused maureen i truely commend you on this act, you really must be proud of yourselves.

If my post offends anyone then im sorry but to send people threatening messages is horrendous.

welcome to the site oneeye


for the record, the mods on here were made aware of the existence of threatening messages (but not their content), which of course we abhor

anyone receiving such has two options

a) if they go into their profiles, there's a menu on the left that includes 'Personal Message Options' from where you can add people to an ignore list

b) use the button near the PMs that reports any inapprropriate PMs to administrators in extreme cases only.

Hi there im glad you were made aware. It is nice to finally post and i hope i will be doing under better circumstances in future.

You do seem to have some genuine nice people on here, i have met and have played many of them at past Poker4charity events, and i hope to do in the future.

With regards to the big people that have sent these threatening PMs big up.... your mothers will be proud

Also I think it is worth adding that ANYONE who is reported to us, and proved to be using the PM service on blonde to send Malicious threats to members would be banned permanantly from the forum.

Thanks kev karen says hi mate.

Sorry to post like this kev but when my friends are threaten i feel it should be highlighted in this thread.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh Karen ..... :) 

With regards to the Threats, we really are pretty powerless to do anything about them unless they are reported to us.

In many cases we encourage people to take any petty arguments to PM's to keep the boards free of such things ... those normally sort themselves out with no problems.  But malicious threats to members or their families will not be tolerated under any circumstances.

  i  just want to clarify,that being    a" BIG"   21 stone guy, and an
ex-boxer,
that i hope you wasnt implying that I HAD made any THREATENING pms to anybody . as a lot of people on here know that i am "BIG" and people are very aware how very anoyed i am at this situation. ive never made a threat in my life sir.
 please dont take offence to this but i do know how some people might read it,
                     coz i am pretty "BIG" ask around

as to the topic any good news tony ? hope so mate

i think he meant big is a differnet manner

as in small minded people sitting behind a screen and sending anonamous threats acting like ronnie and reggie


and not as in big in the colchester kiv waistline or the ironside muscluar size way

thats ok i hope you are right m8

I didnt know you were "big" mate. Only yesterday tikay said to me that I could take you  ;)

lmao,ive never lost ,ever,42-0    i coulda been a contender hehe
   take me where ? out for a pint ? i hope it wasnt the other lol you better start warming up, i aint had a row for days.   


                                                      (.
                                                        o )
                                                      (.
                                 

Evening all.

I'll keep this as brief as possible, as I need to be up at 5.30 in the morning to catch the 0700 London train.

As you know, "Jagster", the Chairman of Game4Life/Poker4Charity (I forget which) invited me to meet with him this evening, & we met in Stoke-on-Trent at around 6pm, for a meet that lasted about 3 and a half hours. 

Tom McCready (RED-DOG) came with me, & Jagster (Andy)was accompanied by Tony Banbury, who is a G4L/P4C Trustee. I had met both Andy & Tony prior to this evening once or twice, at P4C fund-raising "dos" which I used to attend.

The entire meeting, after a slightly "cool" start, was good-natured.

We began by establishing the various "names". What you & I know as "Poker 4 Charity" is split up as follows....

Game 4 Life - Registered Charity

Game 4 Life Enterprises Ltd - Trading Company.

Poker 4 Charity - A Fund-Raising arm which feeds donations into the two G4L divisions, if I understood it correctly.

Next, we looked at the ratio of income to donations - how much in th £ raised goes to good causes.

The Accounts for the first year of Trading, for the period ending December 31st, 2005, have been filed in the last 3 or 4 days. The ratio of cash raised to cash donated to good causes was, in the year 2005, approximately 30p in the £1 - so for every £1 raised, approx £0.30 went to good causes, the rest in expenses & administration. Some unexpected costs arose in year 1 to depress this ratio. I believe some £30,000 was Raised, so £10,000 or so went to Good Causes.

Year 2 (to December 31, 2006) is almost complete, & it is expected that the ratio will be largely unchanged, due to unexpected legal & other costs in 2006. So £0.30 in the £1 in 2006 will go to Good Causes, similar to the 2005 ratio I believe.

Now, on to the cash raised for Maureen.

Andy presented me with a cheque from GAME 4 LIFE ENTERPRISES LTD, which we eventually agreed would be made out in my favour, as we do not know Maureen's surname, & we wanted to put a lid on this affair tonight. Once Maureen gives me her surname & home address, tomorrow no doubt, I'll send her a personal cheque from my account in an identical sum to the cheque Andy gave me.

The sum of the cheque is £3,565.50, made up as follows....

Amount raised at The Western, excluding the Spin Palace Donation.                £3,165.50.

LESS £600 paid to Maureen thus far                                         £600.00.

                                                                                                             £2,565.50.

PLUS Donation from Spin Palace                                                                 £1,000.00.

CHEQUE VALUE                                                                               £3,565.50

The total Spin Palace Donation (excluding the £500 that went direct to the Business for expenses) was £3,000. It remains a matter still to be decided how much of this was intended for "The Maureen Cause", & how much was intended by Spin Palace to be a Corporate Donation to the Game 4 Life "General Fund". This will be resolved by G4L in due course.

It was always my belief, as stated on this thread several times, that we could, tonight, come away with this cheque, & I am most grateful to Andy & Tony for facilitating this.So, "Plan A" has been achieved, & I'm much pleased.

The intended donation to the Hospital  ("Plan B") will have to stay in abeyance until G4L/P4C have decided what to do with the remaining £2,000 from the Spin Palace donation.

As to the other more general matters raised in this thread, you will need to be a little more patient please. We have secured over £3,500 tonight, plus £600 already paid, so we are on the right road, & much progress has clearly been made in the last 7 days. Acknowledgement must go to G4L/P4C, & the pressure caused by the blonde thread, for this progress. The other matters, we are assured, will ail be addressed in due course.

Finally, a lesson for blonde is that I think we need to impose Guidelines for Charities wishing to use the blonde Forum for fund-raising. We will Post these very shortly, once, in consultation with the blondes, we have agreed what they should be. I will ask Tighty to set up this Consultation process with the blondes. For my part, I shall insist, & this is non-negotiable, on full-transparency. I think this whole matter could have been avoided if greater transparency had been in place.

It remains an awesome thing that the blondes went in force to The Western & donated so much money. Let's now hope young Reece soon gets better.

That's me done for tonight, I gotta be up in 5 hours.

PS - "Thank you" to Tom (Red) for giving up his evening tonight to help sort this.

Please give all those at G4L /P4C a bit of time to address the outstanding issues. It won't happen overnight, & they have worked hard to get as far as we have, so give them a bit of time to get their heads round the remaining issues please.

Thanks are due to Andy & Tony, too, they have, in my opinion, worked hard to resolve these matters.

Many thanks for sorting this out tikay.

A|nd sorry sofa nothing in my posts was aimed at you.

There we go, much better!

I am pleased that some progress was made this evening and I wish Maureen and her family all the best.

Ariston has said that a lot of people are biting their tongue on this thead and he is spot on. I have found this thread uncomfortable reading at times and am very disturbed about how P4C have conducted themselves. Now we discover that only 30%, 0.30p in every £1.00 actually gets to the good cause. In other words it costs 0.70p in admin and "unexpected costs" for every £1 given. Does anyone else find this surprising?
This is at best poor management and at worst ....... well I had better bite my tongue again.

jezza

Very very pleased to hear that it has been sorted out and Maureen and her family are receiving the money they deserve. :)

In my opinion, 30% isn't enough to go to good causes. I'm a bit disappointed at that.

As far as I am concerned its a good start but i like others find it discusting that 70p in every pound goes on fees/administration instead of to good causes. If this is the best the charity can be run I would suggest it ceases trading as one ASAP as now these figures have been disclosed I would doubt anybody would support future events.

Very well done to Tony and Tom for going to this meeting and getting a cheque but I still feel a lot needs to be done about the future of P4C. I for one would still like to do something for Maureen and Reece as do a lot of people who have pm'd me but i will leave that entirely to you tony, if you decide extra funds are required please let me know how I can help.

Well done Tony and Tom. upmost respect for you taking time to get things sorted.

I must add I find that only 30% going to the charitable causes and the rest being swallowed up by administration and expenses is totally disgraceful,
Its only my opinion but im entitled to it

Just to add. I'm not sure whether this percentage is similar to other charities but it does seem very low, in my opinion. If anything came up similar to this, for example, we were raising money for a specific person/cause I would rather just donate my money straight to them from now on, so I know that 100% of MY money is being given.

Can't help wondering what % is given by Rob's charity. Maybe interesting to find out what goes to good causes from a "reputable" charity. I am sitting here in complete and utter shock at the 30% figure. I can't believe anyone could even try to justify 70p in every pound going on costs. All I can say is please everyone keep calm and keep the thread as reasonable as possible, I am sure tensions will be running quite high at the revelations.

ive not posted on this thread till now. FIrst of all well done to tony and red dog for working it all out. They have given up theit time and it only goes to show what a great bunch of people inhabit the blonde world. So well done.

The amount is a great amount to be receiving but like others i find 70% of funds not going to the causes appaling. I dont know what the normal amount for a charity is but like poppet says i would rather give the money straight to the person to avoid these costs.

Finally i didnt know about the event and only know what i have read here but its my understanding that most people at the event felt all the money was going to Maureen and reece which still leaves £2000 of spin palace money in the wrong hands.

It is great that a decent amount has finally reached its destination but still not the full amount and still not in a way that leaves a sweet taste in the mouth.

Well done once again tikay and red true gents giving up your own time for the benefits of others.

 :goodpost:

I remember reading somewhere a year also ago that that the rspca runs at an administration cost of 85%. Unfortunately alot of charities do have high admin costs, Game4life is a very young charity and the admin will be high as it has to establish itself a foundation. It needs support from poker players from around the world if it is to become as big as daveys dream.
    People really need to open there eyes up and look at the positive thing in all of this not the admin costs, but the fact that 2 people of worked incredibly hard and some good childrens causes around the country and world are £10,000 better off.

Without the hard work of the people that give thier time and energy this wouldnt have been possible

if the rspca runs at administration costs of 85% I would also be appalled at that. However they raise millions each year and also run shelters etc which come out of those admin costs so are actually caring for animals out of their costs. It doesnt wash with me mate and the fact you say childrens charities are 10k better off just doesnt do it for me as Davey has made 8k a year in wages alone. Please dont try and justify what most of us on here find absolutely appaling as it makes you look rather silly.

Rob posted this earlier about how he runs his charity.

As a person that runs a charity, www.sfcharity.co.uk and have also sponsored a P4C event, in my opinion only, I think the key issues are:

1. Company Stucturing
My charity is not owned by any trading company (such as G4Life) as 100% of all the administration expenses are paid for by my company, sf group, so 100% of all proceeds go to the "good causes". P4C does not have the benefit of a "subsidising company" so have set up G4Life to act as the management company, I have no problem with this as long as ZERO profit is made from the administration expenses and a full breakdown is available to the public.

2. Expense Estimates
Estimating expenses for an event are not good enough, the exact cost should be retrospectively charged with evidence and full back up. Personally, I do not like this set up, I prefer to donate to charities that do not pass 100% to the "cause", OR for a specific item.

3. Proceeds
If this was an event for Reece and the Hospital Ward, all proceeds should have been given to Reece and the Hospital within 7 days of the event. If it was a general P4C event, where P4C allocate the proceeds, this should have been made 100% clear and from these posts, it could have been made clearer.

4. Giving Money
Not donating the money because you have not been asked for it, or do not know where to send it, is not good enough.

5. Customers
In any organisation, commerical or charity, your "customers" must be treated better than this. In this case, the customers are the donators, and the donatees, and there is enough bad feeling here to make P4C review its systems and transparancy.

6. Resources
Running a charity is a serious job, not a part time job. You are asking for people's hard earned money, and their trust, being busy in your own commercial business is irrelevant.

7. Being 100% Accountable
One complaint from a donator or donatee is "1 to much", a charity must be 100% accountable. To continue raising money for good causes, you must maintain the highest possible level of credibility, P4C has not.

8. Specific Projects
I agree with G4L that donations should be spent on specific projects but what the proceeds from an event are going to needs to be made 100% clear to the people donating in that event.

In summary, I believe that P4C / Game 4 Life needs to improve its administration procedures, communciation and transparancy to its donators and donatees. I do not believe for a minute that anything "unethical" has gone on here, just poor systems and controls. I am sure that this thread will will prompt P4C to take a step back and review its operations. P4C and G4L should not take this personally, but listen to the comments. No rational person can argue that this particular charity project has been handled well.

Rob
 

I think the important thing here is that you COULD read somwhere what the RSPCA administration costs are, and then make an informed decision whether to donate or not.

I been doing a bit of googling, it ain't easy to find this info about any charity as far as I can see. Happy to be proved wrong. What is the average % for a UK charity? Been reading about some American and Scottish charities that have been way way worse than P4C.

I'm feeling pretty disillusioned about giving money to charities now and that can't be right.

Before everyone gets carried away with the 70% admin fees - my opinion I will keep to myself,

PLEASE PLEASE take a look here :

http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/SIRList.asp?Begin=A (http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/SIRList.asp?Begin=A)

It is the charaties commission website where you can view charity trading accounts.

It takes a bit of working out where to look, but basically pick a charity, then click to se other information about the charity, then scroll down till you see something that says view financial information, pick a year, and there you can see the full financial statements

You may never give to charaties again.

I think that sums up my feelings exactly.

Yes the world is £10,000 better off... but it should've been so much more.

Unbelievable !!!!  its gutting when you give what you can and most of it ends up somewhere else  :(

Im pretty sure that both ange and davey are a little embarrassed, at how things have happened. I know for a fact both of them havent been well for months now, and the charity has probably taken a back burner. The thing is the money to reece,stacy and maureen has now been sorted. and the money raised from the blondes is great. Raising money in the poker world isnt an ideal place to raise money. Dont get me wrong there are some very generous poker players out there.

And the reason i can back davey and ange on what they do is as follows

 I run the cornwall No1 cosmo club, which is an idea of daveys that local poker players get together a couple of times a week to have a game of poker and raise money for game4life. Now we have been doing this for a little under 6 months and by the end of next week we will have raised over £2000. Not a large sum granted now for all you doubters out there let me go through what this cost for me to set up.

Tables 9 large and 4 table top .........£810
chips 6000 assorted........................£330
copac cards  40 packets                 £200
assorted chip trays/buttons             £30
cheap van to transport the stuff around £300
laptop to run events and keep records     £450
tax on van                                            £97
insurance on van...................................£37 pm £220
poker manager software                         £49
Trophies to keep players happy................£200
diesel for van.........................................£80
and other incidentals                    around £400

that would make a round figure of around £3166

Now on the scale of things am i right to be doing this, apart from a bit i shouldnt have many large costs in the next year. Poker tournements take an awful lot of setting up and its only been recently that the poker tournaments davey runs have been run in casinos. where the overheads are limited. Also the fact that people say i want a tournement in london or cardiff, or scarborough or where ever, then there is the travelling expenses for all invloved. It also got to the point where Davey had to get offices(at a very cheap price i may add) because his house was over run.

So when someone says to me that the exspenses to the ammount the causes received ratio is bad i say to you look at the big picture. Yes in the ideal world it should improve and if Game4life is given the chance to continue im sure it is something that will be looked into.

Well written post, it's nice that someone can say that.

I don't think most of the people here are questioning either the commitment, or the ethics of the people behind P4C and G4L. It's their buisness practises and competency that is being called into question on the most part.



As for the good childrens causes being £10,000 better off, I find fallacy in that.

People that run the charity arn't wholly responsible for all the money raised. Those parting with their cash, the individual donators have a large part in it too. Some people give away a more or less set amount of money to charity every year. In that mini-system, all the people who run charities in this country are responsible for, is which one of them gets it.

I'm not being hypothetical here. When I talk about "some people" I know they are real and I know they exist. The reason, I am one of them. I've done a reasonable amount for seemingly good causes this year (to ease my guilty concious of all those villages I burned down in Nam) it just so happened pretty much all of it was for Game 4 Life. If it wasn't them, it would have been somebody else.......

All very good and well and no doubt Dave and Ang have put there all into this but it just isn't financially viable in my oppinion. I will not support any future activities run by P4C after all this. I think after these revelations and the way Maureen has been treated many people will feel the same. Yes Maureen has now got some more money but should all this have been needed? The fact you have almost been shamed into giving the money over is a disgrace as is the fact your accounts from 2 years ago have only just been done (again only becuase you have been shamed into doing them imo).

I once played as a "bounty" in one of their online fundraisers and managed to rack up around 40 rebuys by going allin blind every hand. Its good to see that out of the $200 or so I spent in that satelitte $60 went to good causes.

One more point, then I must go to bed.

I cannot see why the second years figures will only be 30p in the pound, for this reason :

The first year will involve alot of legal and professional fees - these can be very expensive.

The second year would not have these expenses, so the ratio of donations/money given to good causes should be better.

Maybe Tony got the wrong end of the stick? I dont know, but would be VERY suprised to see the 2nd year the same as the first.

Again, I am not voicing any personal opinion I have, just trying to give the benefit of my knowledge.

You may well be right that it just isnt financial viable. Its is entirely anyones choice to support these events and for those that do my heart goes to you.

There are alot of issues that need to be addressed and the delay in getting the money raised to the right people on this occassion was unacceptable, unfortunately things happen, and thanks to tikay and jagster part of the issue is rectified. I would have thought it would be time to put this thread to bed now. I say anyone that doesnt want to support game4life in future that is there choice and i respect them for that. Now you will have to excuse me its bed time and i have to be up early in the morning to go shopping with one of the nurses for the clic ward in treliske hospital truro to go and buy presents that we will be handing out on christmas morning.

The problem was Paul that instead of 10+ events in year 2, there have only been about 4 due to the gaming commission coming down hard before the Cardiff event.

I am sure that this number will rise as time goes by, as you say Paul the first year is always going to be poor with all the setup costs.

Frightning.
So we're off to a charity poker tournament at the weekend.

Return train tickets - £50
Hotel for 2 nights - £70
Drinks on Friday and Saturday nights - £60
Food and other lesser expenses - £30

It's a tenner rebuy, we play fairly loose, and have seven.

Buy-ins - £80
Raffle tickets - £10


So we've done £300 quid at the weekend, but that's ok, it was for charity.

Half the buy-ins are paid out as prizes, so we've only donated £50 of this £300.

Of this £50, the charity needs 70% to cover it's expenses, so while we were feeling quite pleased with ourselves for spending £300 on "charity", the amount going to do any good is only £15!!!!

When Children in Need comes along, we don't feel any need to swing them a oner no more like what we always used to.


So has £10,000 been raised for good causes, or has £10,000 been taken from good causes?

Still....it was a good weekend wasn't it?

Sigh,

I think I'd rather pay tax....

That just about sums it up in how im feeling at the moment.

OK im a bit thick on these things but i would like to ask something.

If only 30% of donations actually get spent on charity...was only 30% of the funds raised at this event destined to go to the Reece/hospital fund?

I am not trying to cause trouble..its a genuine question.

I'm not as sure as you james. I think any events they now organise will have a shadow over them and there may only be a loyal few in attendance. I would rather go to a charity function where I am sure my money ( I don't have a lot as it is) is going to good causes and not being swallowed up by poor management. I Imagine there may be a few Charity dos at d2d and I bet rob will ensure a very high % (if not all ) of money collected gets put to good use.  Their heart was in the right place but I think P4C has been miss managed and too much money has already been wasted. Any money I give to charity in future I will make sure to ask how much of my pound is being swallowed by admin etc.

...but it probably wouldn't have happened without a stink being drummed up on this forum.

Not a happy state of affairs.

To the charity's credit, and in large part due to some diplomatic and very kind middle-manning form Tikay and RED_DOG, it looks as if half of all monies raised on that day have been passed on to Reece's family, as was the original understanding of all who attended.

The large remaining question is whether or not charity poker tournaments are feasable.

I'm guessing no charity AIMS to spend 70% of all monies raised. They have their expenses, a lot of which are fixed costs, and try to raise as much as possible. If Poker 4 Charity had raised £100,000, instead of £30,000, the £20,000 grand in administrative expenses wouldn't seem so bad.

I've been to a few P4C events.

Looking at the tournament in Motherwell, they had 18-ish runners. That doesn't spin much. The prize pool was barely a grand, so the charity got £500.

My understanding is that two people travelled up from England to run the event. While good people who generously donated their time, their travel and accomodation expenses eat a huge chunk of that £500. My problem here is that a local person can generously donate their time in a similar manner, and put on a 2 table poker tournament with 0 expenses.

The tournament in Cardiff had a few more, around 40. The thing that bothered me there was that I was told they had paid for the use of the hall, and paid for the buffet.

If both events had 150 runners, or close to that, the expenses would have seemed trivial when you looked at the final figure raised. That they didn't, that they arn't working, a change must be considered.

A charity is a buisness, and a buisness that isn't working needs to stop trading.


The viable future of UK charity poker tournaments probably lies in small local rotary-club like operations, whose expenses needn't even include a poker set out of Cosco. I know a few people who have their own poker chips, if you ask them nicely, they might let you borrow them.


Not saying there isn't room for a large central charity, that distributes the monies raised to good causes, and helps organize corporate sponsorship. If this costs 20 grand though, then it needs to do much better.........

Im pretty sure that the reson why the admin costs for the second year havent come down is due to the decline in interest

Cardiff in april had only 40 runners although alot more said they would come
motherwell had 18 although alot more said they would come
Newcastle the ness and necs had a good number in fact, the had to turn people down, until on the day many people didnt turn up
scarborough 54 runners people enevr turned up again.

 How many people here have signed up to one of the p4c affiliate deals, or signed up to the 1% club( you give 1% of your poker winnings) or in fact recycled a mbile phone through the scheme p4c are running. Who here has purchased a christmas present via the online affiliate shops.

Instead of people slagging off the way a charity is run, there are ways in fact that you all as poker players could turn the charity around, without actually having to pay your 300 pounds to go to one of the events

As i said the 70% admin costs of the charity is inreasonably high at the moment, but as a whole this charity is likely to have these expenses regardless. If threads are being generated around the internet saying what a rip off game4life is and interest declines further then im pretty sure that the expense ration will decline further.

Davey has worked tirelessly over the past couple of years to try and make the game4life charity a success, giving the poker players of this country and the world a chance to give a little back to childrens charities. And if it isnt supported as much as it should be then that cant be helped.

I suggest that instead of slating the charity support it and then things would look altogether rosier

That's the solution, more of us need to join the 0.3% club.

whats it gonna take ?
i have had a titfull of this, its turning in to a JOKE.
why still are there some people who cant see the light ?are people scared of this charity?
tank hit the nail on the head p4c is not just aimed at making money for charity as it should be.
 when he said about when you spend £300 quid going to one of theses "doos" only £15 ends up at the charity.JOKE,
"this charity is not just about making money for good causes its about meeting people and having a good time on the way."which in my eyes is "BSh1t"
well done tony and tom,i bet that was an eye opener,glad Reece will finally get something,if not all.
AS TO PEOPLE WHO STILL DEFEND THIS CHARITY JUST THINK WHEN YOUR AT THE NEXT DOO COZ THATS WHAT THEY ARE ("A DOO") JUST THINK THAT ONLY A SMALL % WILL END UP WHERE ITS SUPPOSED TO GO..
         """ AND THATS IF IT GETS NAMED AND SHAMED INTO DOING SO !"""



just 1 thing to add,OK if the  admin costs were high  % for the first year?
but why the second year too?????????? this is wrong all wake up at smell it...

not the solution at all, i appreciate your less than witty reply tank. Alot of blonde members will probably never donate or attend another penny to game4life and that is entirely thier choice i and i respect them for that. The point i am making is administration will appear high if a charity hasnt a large income.

Heres a for instance if every blonde member recycled an old mobile phone through the recycling shceme, then not only would each indivual get up to £40 in argos credit but the charity would make up to £15144.5  this is entirly free money .

On a bigger picture if everyone who played poker in the uk donated a phone, and correct me if i am wrong the estimation is over 4 million then that would be in excess of 14 million pounds.

Then for daveys £8000 a year wages he had generated 14 million and you all think he is a legend.

This is my point

I am sure alot of people think the same thing sofa but you have to be patient for the answers, as stated on this thread they will come once tikey has met the person and formulated a response. I dont think you help yourself the way you post, it puts people on the defensive right away and takes away from your valid points.

Be patient and let them come up with a detailed response, making judgment calls on things you dont fully understand is very dangerous and potentially can have massive negative effects on people. Remember these people are not bad or criminals ffs.

£300!!!! was not spent at the charity event, they were tanks costs,i.e hotel, drinks and whatever he spent. He actually only spent £90

at the event. of which a percentage went to the prizepool. How can you say we are now responsable for people's travel and beverage costs??

now hang on a minute you only get £40 for a mobile phone which is a 8800 and if its full working order.these phones sell for £300+ on e-bay so you must be  getting brainwashed  mate.
and dont forget game 4 life 2u . co . uk
will get a draw out of this.   (phones)
what type of person gives away these type of books free if you become a AFFILIATE of this site?
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The charity does not get £40 from each phone donated, at the moment we get 35p per phone donated, it used to be £3.50 but that was at the start of their campaign, the donator of the phone gets the full amount that is stated on their website.

Cash withdrawn by you since start of campaign  £1486.25  << what was donated to the charity.
 
Cash paid to donors who have supported your campaign  £6898.19  << what was given to the donator.
 
Argos credit paid to donors who have supported your campaign  £2900.4 << given to the donator if they took argos vouchers.

So what the donator receives far outweighs was has been given to charity.
 

what i am saying is instead of going to one of these" DOOS" and spending £300-400 and only £15 ending up at the good cause  STAY HOME AND SEND £50 DIRECT TO THE INTENDED PURPOSE

Some people might enjoy spending money for a weekend away where they can meet up with old friends and have a game of poker and a laugh and if some of the proceeds end up going to charity then even better - rather than just sitting at home.

oneeye who said £40 for a secondhand phone mate ?

Yes Chris (oneeye) may have received that personally for donating a phone, but that is not what the charity receives.

ok matt fair point.

 ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated; ;frustrated;

 :goodpost: ;tightend; ;tightend;

so just to carify
£60,000 was raised "FOR CHARITY"    well done
£16,120 was wages (1 person)           not so good
£24,000 was admin costs (lotta paper) very bad management


total raised              £60,000
charity end up with    £19,880   if it got there? ive got to have my doubts as to seeing only one case the reece fund.....sorry.....
this is 2 years of charity work ?

sorry if offended i cant bite my tounge i speak my mind this is my opinion.

Ange is correct i received £38.75 to be precise for the phone i recycled and i couldnt get on ebay. I wasnt aware the ammount paid to charities had changed so i apologise for that.

Yes alot of phones you can sell on ebay, so go do that, if that is what you want to do.

I dont know how many p4c functions you have attended sofa or if in fact you attended the event for reece and how much you spent. But it isnt about the money you spend, its about getting away for a weekend, meeting people you play with on the internet and in the process raising money for a worthwhile cause. If people in actual fact turn up to these events when they say they are then maybe more money would be raised and the admin costs of the charity wouldnt be so bad, in proportion.

 This is the point i am trying to make

How many more times is he gonna be allowed to imply that the money has been stolen?

i have never attended any of the p4c events as to be honest ive allways thought that any money going to charity should get there ,i.e instead of spending it on hotels or booze OR WAGES AND ADMIN COSTS thats MY decision,,, BUT i have donated direct to the people that have needed it whenever there has been any fundraising to do with blonde members you can ask tony kendal,not that i need to explain what i do for charity but if you point the finger then i must answer.

WHO SAID STOLEN?YOU THERE BEST FRIEND,im saying it hasnt gone to charity its gone on other things,NOT CHARITY OK.

I don't think he was implying that the money has been stolen, I think the point is, that we DON'T know where the money has gone... lack of transparency Trace, is what we are all saying.

THANKYOU ginger

I am not pointing fingers in the slightest mate, i am just curious. I can understand everyones frustrations and i think the money going to reece should by now be resolved. I wish reece and all members of his family all the best. As for game4lifes admin costs, the %age may appear high as i have said several times now, but im sure it will be reviewed. The time it takes for money to be paid out by charities can be a long time sometime. If you google the way that children in need pay out money you may be suprised at how long it can take and they have a multy million pound income.

peace be with you all and a merry christmas and happy new year to you all

DIRECTED STRAIGHT AT TRACE,
trace you really think i got it in for p4c dont you?
i know these people have given time for charity
i know they have tried something new
and i know that it hasnt worked
that is what im trying to say to all here
its not working
whether you think they have stolen money from this charity or not money was not accounted for ,so in my eyes where has it gone ?
not on the intended purpose ok.

Flippancy aside, with the 0.3% club, I think there is a real problem here.


This is probably true, which leads me to ask, at what point do they decide that what they are doing is not working and call it a day? When 70% becomes 100%? Has that point not arrived already?

To what extent are individual donations subsidizing these events? We will probably continue to cry out for a breakdown of how much was made at each event.


Yes, he has done a lot, worked very hard, but if what he's doing isn't making money, the approach needs to be changed. Of course it's unfortunate that this is all being questioned when he is not at all well. I wish him the best of health. (While it appears as if I'm dissing him, to my credit I've succesfully resisted a huge temptation to use a variety of insulting analogies in this paragraph to assist me while making my point.)

From the section of the post quoted above, it would not be clear that the man didn't invent the whole concept of charity, and without him we would be spending all our money on chocolate underwear.

I'll be brief on that here, because I've already spokern of my opposition to that idea earlier, that the donaters themsleves are part of the equation, and may give to good causes regardless.
 



I do think that a poker charity is an excellent idea, if it can pool the generosity of poker players as a group. Too frequently the media image of the poker player is not a favourable one, it makes it harder for tabloids to cast dispersions upon our breed when it is clear to all the work we have done.

Voulunteers who donate their time and incur their own expenses in raising a bit through sponsorship, or running small scale poker tournamets in a rotary-style club, like the good work being done in Cornwall. Or through personal donations, be they as part of a one percent of winnings scheme or otherwise. There's no reason why money raised in this manner can't be passed on by a group of voluntary trustees in a poker charity, and this money be goven to good causes at a rate of 100 pennies to the pound. There's no doubt in my mind an organization centered around this idea could exceed 10 grand a year quite easily.




You can't tell me poker players arn't a generous bunch. Blaming the UK poker scene for not turning up to the events en masse is all well and good. Maybe they just get too much practise at seeking out value at the tables, so instinctively stay away from P4C.

Tell these people it's not working? The Photo's in the thread are not there anymore, but they were amazing!



Dave and Ang, you must be very disheartened at this thread, but i urge you to continue with the excellent effort you both have put in to this. I agree that it should be transparant and sure that the details shall in time be posted on your forum for all that care to see, can examine and decide for themselves. I am at a loss as to why a weekly wage of £155 can be disputed, after the time and effort put in by yourselves.

Admin costs do seem a bit high, but can totally understand them with our present legal system and gaming laws, and the amount of times you have been let down after incurring expenses to travel to meetings to arrange events and being let down by third parties time after time.

Get well soon both.

Maureen, Reece and Stacey, my prayers are with you all, and hope that some light will eventually be seen at the end of the tunnel. My best wishes for a hopeful future. x.

For those people that have turned their back on P4C, if it makes you feel better buy a present for Christmas and take it down to a children's hospice and see the smiles it generates.

Merry Christmas All

Hi Paul,

I am sorry to say that the quoted (& estimated) figure of £0.30 in the £1 for Year Two IS correct, & will be confirmed by Jagster & Tony Banbury if you wish to contact them direct. Believe me, every word I type on this thread is double & triple checked for accuracy! If only I DID have the wrong end of the stick! Feel free to validate my figures with Andy (blondeite The Jagster) or Tony Banbury.

The reasons for the disappointing % in Year Two was accurately described by James (Flushy) in a Post two or three after yours. Lower revenues were the cause, & with fixed costs remaining "as was" the result was, inevitably, the lower %.

Guys, MUCH progress has been made in a week. Maureen has a cheque on the way to her, we have secured much improved transparency, and you guys now know enough to make your own decisions in advance of any donations you may wish to make. As a side note, we have all learned much about the world of Charity, & will, as a result, give more selectively in future. (I am talking ALL charities now).

The thread has been exemplary, especially considering it's such an emotive issue.

Please lets keep the thread cool & reasoned, then we will be able to continue the debate in a constructive way. And surely we all want that - it's good to talk!

This in my opinion is casting aspersions towards theft!

PLEASE!

Let's move on. What's done is done.

Jagster will be reporting back to us in due course, he has a day job, so let's give him a bit of breathing space please.

There HAS been progress, as I outlined earlier, so I think we should all be in a slightly better frame of mind now.

Come on, lighten up guys, the worst is behind us.

Let's direct our positive vibes to young Reece. When he gets better, then we've really had a result.

tony i know you say whats done is done but bloody hell mate dont you think it leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths ? knowing that people been giving to charity for 2 years and now finding out that only 30% goes to good causes? it has had to come to this to get to the bottom of things ?
if maureen wasnt brave enough as it is to have to come out in no uncertain terms and say look guys you gave this money for a good cause,but we still havent had it.
is this right? or wheres it too?   
                               i hate to think where the money would have gone if blondes never banged on the door to find out (im not saying they are stealing it trace)

                                                                 it could have gone on anything,but not the intended destination of the people that gave on this day.......

Sofa,

I know you won 46 fights, but didn't you go back into your corner when the bell rang? ;)

I don't think his fights ever lasted a round.

yeah after about 30 seconds coz the other guy was kippin

from what I now know of sofa I'm just glad I didn't ask if that was his real picture when he first joined  ;noflopshomer;

Somewhere amidst this 46 round barn burner, sofa-king has become a hero member.   ;applause; ;applause;

Top 500 charities spend around 9-10% on fund raising and administrative costs.  The average is 15-25%, anything more than that is a bad value for money.

I've avoided posting on this thread as i'd had a 'small' chat with the nun before she went away.

I now just want to say well done to the blonde masses for forcing this through, and giving so generously in the first place, and well done to tk and dawg for going out of their way as true friends of the nun, and securing the cheque.

Most of you probably know the nun and Stacey, there both very proud people and this must have been a very difficult time for them, on top of reece's condition. I know the nun feels awkward by all of this, but it is my opinion and i'm sure the opinion of most here, that if we were to lose touch with you and you didn't post anymore, then we would all understand, but that maybe p4c would have won... Why should their failings deny US of your wit and insight, and YOU of all that is great about blonde. Please don't drop off.

Finally, i hope you all manage to have a lovely family christmas,

Lots of love to all, Matt. x

If the Nun stops posting, I will personally go round there and make her come   online!!

Hello.

For those of you who do not know me, my name is Tony Banbury and I am a trustee of Game4Life.

I was present at the meeting last night, and may I thank Tony & Tom for their attendance in what proved a most constructive meeting.
I FULLY AGREE that the time in getting the money to Reece was totally unacceptable. I also FULLY AGREE that the charity does need more transparency.
However - and you can call it what you want - but some posts on this forum clearly insinuate wrong doing, and it is wrong to make that assumption when the posters clearly have nothing of substance to back it up.
Davey & Ange have worked tirelessly to get this charity up and running. They have had so many obstacles to overcome in their quest to make a success of the charity.  But still, after identifying this forums concerns and trying our best to sort it out as quickly as possible, the "Bear-Baiting" continues.

Both Andy (Jagster) & I have agreed to do what we can to sort out the problems, and if trust your "Spiritual Leader" Tony (Kendall - no offence intended)

Then you can allow us the time needed without the ridiculous rantings.

I confirm that in the past I have been paid my expenses to attend trustees meetings etc. (which is in line with the law in running a charity - as advised by the charity's solicitors), and I have been further paid fuel costs when I have transported the equipment to events in my own company's vehicle (I claimed just the direct fuel costs and not included any other costs such as depreciation etc. which IS allowed).

I am unable to give as much time to the charity through pressure of work, and it is my intention to resign my position of trustee as soon as possible. But in the meantime I intend to NOT claim any expenses.

On that subject and having spoken briefly to Andy (Jagster), I offer to sofa----king (and ANY other person suitable/acceptable to hold such a position in the eyes of the Charities Commission) the opportunity of a position on the board of trustee's.  They will then benefit from FULL TRANSPARENCY, they can then have the benefit of all the information available, and can work toward getting the ratio of money generated to monies going to the good causes up to that magical 85-90%.  I would expect of course that any person from the forum would not want to claim ANY expenses toward attending as many Trustee's meetings as they saw fit (as that would eat in to the monies intended for good causes), neither would I expect them to claim ANY expenses toward attending events wherever they may be in the country (again, for the same reasons), and also they should understand that this WILL eat into their time which should be spent working/running a business.  I look forward to hearing from you all by either PM or email (all enquiry's will be dealt with in the strictest confidence (but then again, would that not be transparent?)

Also, let me give you this scenario to consider:
A person (mentioning no names) has a charity that pays out 100% to good causes (lets for arguments sake say it raises £50,000), that person has a company who picks up all the admin costs.  If its admin costs etc. come to £25,000 then that can - and IMHO should be classed as income.  Therefore income equals £75,000 and to good causes equals £50,000 therefore the REAL percentage in the pound is 66.66%. A great achievement, but still far short of the magical 90%.

Things need to improve at Game4Life we accept that. Now give us the time to resolve it eh?

In closing, may I wish you all the best over the Christmas period, and hope you have a prosperous new year.

where did you get that figure from tantrum? If that is right then it shows the 30% figure up for the disgrace it is.
Thank you for taking time to respong bigslick but I doubt anyone on here (beyond your small band of close personal friends) would want to be a trustee of a charity most have lost faith in.

That doesn't make sense to me.

thanks for the offer of trustee for this organisation,"but no thanks"
but thanks for sorting things out for reece, with tom and jerrytikay
i hope you to have a nice christmas

The bigger a charity is, the more it will benefit from scalability. The costs do not increase in proportion with money raised, therefore it is inevitable that small charities incur admin costs which are a bigger % of their overall income than the likes of the NSPCC etc.

in this case then the company that would pick up the admin costs would be better of doing 0 for charity other than donating £25k (without any hasstle?)and no cost or time ?

I am unable to give as much time to the charity through pressure of work, and it is my intention to resign my position of trustee as soon as possible. But in the meantime I intend to NOT claim any expenses.

rat/ship????

If rob was to ask me to help run some charity poker events and assured me 100% of the money raised would be going to good causes then I would gladly give up my time for free. I would also support an event of this kind as a player to. I will not however go to any event where for every £10 rebuy I have only £3 goes to good causes.

I think there's an inevitable problem with expenses in running any relatively small scale charity, which has a wide geographic reach.

Running a charity that raised £30k p.a. in your local town would probably be pretty cost effective, but when the geographic reach is national or international it simply can't make sense.

It would be unfair to expect all trustees or other active suporters to pay for all their own travel, accomodation, and subsistence costs, but choosing where to draw the line is tricky.

Should all flights be Ryanair, all hotels bargain basement, eating at McDonalds only? Probably not.

Should all flights be Business Class, all hotels 5*, fine dining only? Probably not.

I'm aware of many recent poker oriented fundraisers that have been run successfully online, going back to the Hurricane Katrina events. Instead of a tourney being $10+1, it can be $10+5, $10+10, or whatever.

Given the simplicity of getting an amenable online site to set up a one-off event, and the virtually zero cost of marketing through forums and blogs, that seems a much more viable business model - and one which is not open to suspicion of abuse.

If P4C doesn't have the critical mass to operate cost effectively in live events, I'd suggest sticking to the online arena would be a wise move until the numbers dictate otherwise.

Also now I have reread the last few pages I take offence at the comments about poker players. Sure the £20k admin costs wouldnt look so bad if you had raised £14million but the fact is you haven't. You can't say its our fault your business is poorly run because you haven't collected enough. To blame the generous players for your inadequecies is very poor imo.

He's obv talking about Rob Yong but he's saying that Rob pays all the expenses out of his own pocket right? surely that's a good thing? that means that if you want all your donations to go to good causes give your money to Rob's charity. seems weird that someone from P4C is effectively advising us to donate to a different charity.

Sorry m8. Let me try to make it clearer.

I have a business of my own. I can offset against my company's tax liability a charitable donation. However to ensure I have not just pocketed the money, the inland revenue would want to know where I have sent it to.  The charity receiving said donation would then need to show that donation coming in. That money would go into the "income" of the charity but not going out to good causes.

What I am saying m8 is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to pay out 100% to good causes. A telephone call needs paying for, as do stamps, stationery, etc. etc. etc.

Also, if we are going to compare charities, can we have like-for-like comparisions.

And finally, does anyone know how much the Chief Executives of NSPCC or British Heart Foundation or RSPCA earn?

I'm now going to work to try and earn a living.

Unfortunately nobody associated with P4C has represented themselves or their organisation very well on this thread.

Thank you, I deserved that.....did'nt I?

Yes I think you did actually.

did we deserve telling its our fault your charity is not working because we havent donated enough or attended enough events?

I am uncomfortable with the way this thread is going, whether you think the spokes people from P4C/Game for Life have done them self any favours in their posts or not, facts are that they have at least been good enough to post. I dont feel that personally attacking them is any way to get answers or encourage them to provide them.

Perhaps we should afford them the decency of trying to explain their position without jumping straight down their throats with flippant sarky comments.

By all means ask questions, but can we at least ask them in a civil way ?

SHUT IT... X

Leave it Tony, it's really not worth it!

among others:

http://www.charitywatch.org/toprated.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/programmes/money_box/transcripts/06_10_16.txt

http://society.guardian.co.uk/voluntary/story/0,,1946511,00.html

http://www.give.org/standards/newcbbbstds.asp


although charity watch is an American organisation it can be appplied to most UK charities.

if p4c thought that it was not being run to well,due to illnes or to busy or stressed out,surley if they would have asked for help  or advice they would have got it .or just cut out so many events around the country ?

RSPCA around £100,000 - £110,000 the NSPCC seems to be about the same, as per the accounts of 2005 and 2003 respectively.  Assuming the Chref exec is the highest paid person in the organization.

Roofer Matt, long time no see .... how are ya ... and GFY xxx

Rob Yong's Charity. I don't think we can or should be comparing that with P4C/G4L, we are talking apples & pears.

But in answer to a point made above, it's my understanding that exactly 100% of money donated to Rob's Charity does indeed go to Good Causes. But that's totally different, it just is. Rob is a philanthropist, he has a business which covers ALL the costs, so as I said, it's apples & pears to compare it with P4C.

Also, to compare P4C with the BHF, RSPCC, or RSPCA is a bit out there too.

REALLY??   

Well, yeah the RSPCA is animals, not children.

Ridiculous Rantings maybe?

I cannot waste my time anymore trying to communicate with (IMHO) a fool with NO knowledge of what he is on about.

I will no longer post anything else until we have investigated this matter

ok I am now getting pms saying that the online site refunded my rebuys as they felt I had gone to far. I cant even remember which site it was played on as the 200 immediately went in a hand of plo so me saying I gave 200 to the charity was incorrect as in effect the site gave an extra 200 donation by proxy.

Seems they want this as some sort of revelation against my character but when i had the 40 or so rebuys I didnt know the site was going to refund me did I? I hardly asked them to do so.

Tank your right to compare P4C to NSPCC RSPCA etc is pushing it, in fact I would go as far as saying to compare P4C to a charity is pushing the boundaries.

Sorry TK, didnt mean to suggest you were lying or misquoting figures

We too want TRANSPARENCY!


oh Russ Come on - that last sentence is not on - and pretty damned unfair!

Ariston, I think you read the comments wrong (and are being unfair because of it). I've attended some P4C events & have seen the people who have organised them at the local level, very upset at the amount of people who'd said "I'll be there" and not turned up. That's not a criticism of the people who did and donated, or a criticism of generous poker players, it's just a contributory factor to events not making what was envisaged.

I've been heading to an event where the accommodation was block booked, but the casino closed less than a WEEK before, with the trophies and the tables still in the casino. Alternate accomodation had to found, after a new casino was generous enough to put on the event at a week's notice. The original hotel refused to refund any money. I can't see how the charity could have envisaged these sudden changes & associated costs.

Tank's made a good point, that possibly the tournaments should be downgraded, to reduce costs & allow them to be more locally run, and meaning more of what's run is made as a donation. HOWEVER, having known of a player lose in an early round of a Head's Up tourney and blame it all on a ruling, then threaten to sue the charity for the overall prize, there are dangers in that direction as well.

In general I do think there's some very unnecessary insinuations on this thread, and I think P4C has hit a major decision point on whether to continue in their current form, change, or even close, but the repeated sniping & abusive comments made to the people trying to clear things up are not helping anything & TBH totally against the spirit of blonde.

A fool who has no knowledge?

 If P4C runs any events with any success next year I shall be very surprised. If the charities commision gets involved with this there would be hell to pay so I suggest you watch who you are calling a fool. Poor poker player maybe, but I ain't no fool and this isn't just some random attack on you. I have played poker with Maureen and although not a close friend I find the way you have dealt with her to be completely disgraceful. How you can defend the figures you have given yourself in this thread is beyond the realms of reality- the people who have donated at various events have a right to feel cheated.

Russ, take a chill pill, please!

This ain't getting any of us anywhere.

trace how can u have a few pops at me, get me wound up then tell me to take a chill pill. you have seen first hand how hard it is to get me to lose my temper but this issue has got my blood boiling. I can walk away from most things but not something concerning kids and charity.

answer a simple couple of questions trace.
do you think the treatment of maureen and reece has been fair?
do you think if i go to a P4C event that if I have 40 rebuys at £10 a time only £60 actually reached good causes?

simple questions trace seeing as you are one of the main defenders.

You not helping, same as sofa...

Let it go, your pissing most peeps off with your tone of posts.

Everyone please


Whether your blood is boling or not we, everyone, need to keep the debate on substantive issues and refrain from personal attacks, jibes and causing this threat to spin out of control

There are serious issues here that should be addressed, cloaking them in personal vitriol helps no one.

Thank you

I think it is now time to lock this thread, and ban any talk of P4C on this forum.

It is obviously a topic that certain people have very strong feelings about - why continue to argue?

ok i will bugger off and calm down and come back later on. If my posts have gone to far i appologise but where I come from we say it as we se it.

Apology not necessary Paul, & I was certainly not suggesting you were calling me a liar. But i wanted to stress, that the figures I quoted were accurate, based on what two Trustees told me last night, & that, naturally, I am, being extremely careful with my choice of words on this thread.

We are cool, Paul. Can I have one of Charmaine's mince pies now, please? In the bath, that is.

As do I russ.

But there comes a time when it is obvious the two sides will not agree and things just get out of hand.

I also think most people have had their say.

And that damage (rightly or wrongly) has been done.

Russ Im mainly asking you to take a chill pill before you have a sodding coronary, and some of your comments are getting a tad nasty.  There's no need.

Of course my sympathies go out to Maureen, Stacey and Reece, but at the same time this could have be handled so much differently!  I have heard two side of the story and all is not as plain as you seem to think it is!  << Don't try to draw me on that 'cos it will fall on deaf ears!

As has been stated previously this is a new Charity, overheads have been high, given chance everything will settle down and more will go to the causes. 

I do volunteer work for the Charity - I do what I can when I can and I do it happily and freely, I defend this, not 'cos Ang and Davey are my mates, because I love and approve of what they do!

My apologies if this post doesn't answer your questions or make sense, but I am in the office on my own and it's a little chaotic to say the least.

My 1st post on this -

Obviously there are issues, and in time these will be sorted I hope

In the short term lets wish Reece, and any other children in the same situation a Very Happy Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!!

In my opinion you are now threatening me.  I am not prepared to accept that.  I understand you live quite close to me, and will be happy to meet you face-to-face to discuss this further.

PM me to sort it, but please do not hide behind this forum.

I will be offline for the next hour or two - I gotta job now, you know! (Tell you the truth - guaranteed - I am due, in 5 minutes, in the Make-Up Depaetment......trust me, it's true! I may be a while in there).

Look, I am not prepared to "ban discussion of P4C" on blonde, as there is still much to discuss.

Lock the thread? We rarely do that, & I'm totally against it. However, if the thread spirals out of control this afternoon, the Mods have the power to Lock the thread for an hour or two if they feel it apropriate, & they will have my full backing.

But let's not descend to that, it ain't necessary, let's move forward, please. Good progress HAS been made, & that's all down to open discussion on this Forum, proving "it's good to talk". So let's keep talking, please. blonde style, that is.

xx

Not bad - considering the show isn't until Friday..........

That job must pay good too - not many miracle workers left nowadays!! ;D

thats right i dont want to help a charity that dont work,i want to help maureen and reece thats why im ranting ok pal

For pity's sake  give it a rest!

Is this an Ariston/Sofa--King tag team or something? ? ? ?

not a nice thought, ariston and sofa in lycra....


shudder....

I dont hide behind nothing and the tone of your post is far more threatening than mine. You want to meet thats fine but dont be expecting it to be pleasant as I see your post above as nothing more than a veiled threat/challenge. I had gone away to calm down and come back to this?

DING DING DING

End of Round One!


Gentlemen back to your corners please.


I'm throwing the towel in for both of you!

lmao i cant lycra to fit me

pack it in, everyone. Please.

Last warning before I put the lycra on myself.

tighty would you let someone challenge you like that on a forum you spend a lot of time on? I notice he hasnt offered to meet sofa with his 46-0 record, obviously thinks I'm some sort of pushover. I never threatened him but I don't take threats like this lightly mate.

thread locked

enough

Your not helping thats the point, or maybe your pretending to be thick and the village idiot?

MMA 4 Charity?

thread unlocked. Please be civil. Thank you

and here is Maureen's message......

"Hi all, as i have said before i have Ltd access to the net as we chose not to bring the laptop and the cost here per hour is  $8 ph.

Firstly i have to say a very big thankyou to Tony and Tom for going out of their way and sorting all this out for me. THANK YOU BOYS XXX

Whether or not you think i went about this the wrong way at least it is now being / been addressed. I too was shocked to find that only 30% goes to the actual cause, maybe i was so naive i never bothered to ask. IMO i think that this should be stated prior to an event to eliminate any confusion.I am very sorry to hear that people are resigning from the charity that was set up with the intention of raising money for children, I have now this on my conscience. I do not want people leaving the charity because of this, If the charity is run more efficiently surly no one has to resign. There are still poorly children out there and it really saddens me that i have caused this. Yes , i was PM'd and accused of accusing folk of stealing money from the cause but if my posts were read correctly at no point what so ever have i said any such thing. I wanted the people of blonde that donated to know how much and where the funds were going , and i stand by this.

It has become a very heated thread but lets keep it civil. Everyone is entitled to their say, after all this is a forum and people should not be scared to post or ask or even give suggestions on ways to improve how the charity is run. I suppose once the breakdowns of all past and future events are made available then people will be able to see exactly where raised money is spent and where improvements can be made. I guess these figures are made public , but with not having a lot to do with charities to that depth maybe they arn't made public, i don't know, Anyone ?.

When i return home i will sit Stacey down and update her on all this as she is totally oblivious to this thread, she has way too much to cope with to have her worrying.She asked ,before i left , " mum will i be getting anymore money " well know i can answer that with confidence ...YES TX to blondes.

We will post here how Stacey chooses to spend it. Reece can not go on holiday or too far from home due to his machines at night plus we get a bit nervous if we are too far from his allocated hospital, but Stacey does rely heavily on her  car which she has to meet monthly payments on, therefore some of it will go towards The payments. Also nappies are a huge expense as Reece has such a short gut he has no control over his bowel and gets very sore so we have to keep him dry. Stacey is also a single parent so her funds are limited you can all rest assured that this money will make life easier for them both.

Thankyou all from a very emotional Nun..XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX "

Jeez. Am I the only one with tears running down my face after reading that?

God Bless Reece, & Stacey.

Sounds like a plan Maureen , the money will be going exactly where its most needed  :)
Love to you and yours and may the new year bring lots of goodluck to Stacey and Reece  ;applause; ;applause; ;applause; ;applause;

I do like a happy ending.
 ;applause;

A whole bunch of Posts since last night have begun with "thanks to Tom & tikay".

I have to say, I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable with that. I was asked by P4C to attend a meet to see if things could be tidied up. I asked Tom to accompany me, & I'm glad I did, he's a brick. Tony & Andy showed up, we debated for 3 or 4 hours, & then went home. Andy (Jagster) & Tony (TheBigSlick) were both 100% open & honest. They held their hand up & admitted things could have been handled better.

The cheque for Maureen was pre-prepared when we arrived, it was not down to Tom or me, it was already written, effectively the Forum debate had done all the work.

I have not spoken to Tom today, but I'm sure he feels the same as I do. We just wanted to see Maureen get what was, in our, & most blonde's opinion, rightfully hers. (Effectively Stacey's, for Reece). But we never did anytrhing to get the cheque.

Thank you Andy and Mr B for sorting this out.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Well thank goodness the money has ended up where we all thought it should be going.

Happy Xmas to Maureen, Stacey and especially little Reece.

Very nice to see things have been tied up nicely for maureen stacey and reece. I wish all you family well in the new year, and it is good to see that moiney raised by the blondes in conjunction with Poker4charity has gone to a good cause.

All i can say is Tikay a big up to you for not taking the credit for resolving this, and as for the forum making this  happen you may be on to something. Personally i would have thought that a few discrete enquiries months ago via email, or pm may have rectified this sooner, instead of what has now led to a whitch hunt, people and their families being threaten and all sorts of insults. And the very charity that aided in the raising of this money being put on the line.

People power certainly does work.

Shhhh!!! ffs! You're ruining our street cred!!

With the greatest respect sir, you seem as determined as everyone else to put forward your point of view.

We do not tolerate threats or insults, if you have evidence of this sort of behaviour please forward it to a moderator and appropriate action will be taken.

If you want the fire to go out, don't keep poking the embers.

I do not want a slanging match and will not become involved in one but i have stated my reasons and i stand by them as i said in my post. End of.

this is my last post on this topic unless something is directed at me.

firstly, i would like to say good luck to Maureen,Stacey and of-course Reece,
i hope everything goes OK for you all and have a nice Christmas and a very good new year.

secondly, i would like to thank the people on blonde who have persued this topic
and didn't let it fade, you all know who you are.

thirdly,i am so,so,glad that Maureen brought this to the attention of blonde members,if it were not well this could have gone on and on.

fourthly,last of all i know that the newths must be very upset by all of this,but also,a lot of other people that have done work for this charity,
 and from blonde and other forums are upset by this too.
I'm not saying that all of this could have been stopped earlier.but people learn by there mistakes,and I'm sure there has been a few in this case.

i hope there can be something learnt from all of this, by all of us on this forum.
as i have learnt something of which is very valuable this is>
 
  "you can never judge a book by its cover"
   "and what goes around comes around"

god bless you all and yet again >>>>merry Christmas        
    real life                      James "rock hard" fisher
    laddies and here              aka    sofa----king
    p4c                   aka   the-sausage
    blue square                aka       23spades
    bet Fred                aka   one punch jimmy
    full tilt                  aka      Paul jackson
    from now on i am one name on all "SOFA----KING"

I for one am glad this is all sorted, the stress this has put everyone under involved with P4C/G4L

has hopefully come to an end. I will not be posting again on this matter or any other thread on this
site.

Good Luck to Maureen, Stacey and Reece.

All the details of what money was raised for this years tournaments will be available on the P4C site.

All we ever wanted to do was to make a difference by raising funds through the poker community
and things could have been handled differently looking back now.

I have found out who our true friends are in the poker world and would like to thank them for their support.

Merry Christmas to Everyone.

Ang

I have been a trustee for a charity as was my dad (a different one) for many years. At no time did either of us take any expenses or get paid for our time. That was our 'donation' to a good cause. We were trustees doing what we could when we could and making money for the charity in the process. We did this because we knew that every penny counted and anything we took out of the charity diminished the benefits of others and we could afford to drive to meetings, fund raisers etc without taking any money for it.

As a business owner I now have to look at what expenses are sustainable for my business.

It seems obvious to me that this charity cannot sustain paying staff and expenses, whether part time or full time. This charity is too small to allow this to happen. Larger charities whose chief execs are often responsible for fund raising of millions can afford to buy in expertise but a charity the size of P4C imho is too small to sustain these type of expenses.

If a charity cannot sustain paid workers then it has to rely on unpaid volunteers - that is after all what charity is about.

How this level of expenditure and drain on donations has been allowed to happen after year 1 I'm not sure, but surely the trustees should have recognised the problems and made desisions accordingly.

As for no longer taking any expenses, I am gob smacked, in a charity this small to take any expenses in my mind is questionable in the first place and the fact that this has been entertained for 2 years beggars belief. If you can't afford to be charitable and not take any expenses then pass the job onto someone who can.

Well, I am not sure it is sorted out.

I'm also frankly shocked at the fact that Ange can pull it around to her and Davey finding out who "their true friends are in poker".

This isn't about friendships, loss of image, and people being slighted. This is about people being misled, and promised things that take an age to be delivered.

A more humble apology followed by no wallowing about friendships would have been light years more appropriate than what Ange posted.

 ;iagree;

To all posters on this thread

Having read all comments on the above, some constructive, some not, the only thing i can remember throughout is TK's comment about tears in his eyes.

I am of a similar thought, and feel the same

P4C was and is a good idea, i think we all believed in it, we may be disillusioned at present, but each of us believed at some time we were doing good through playing poker.

Whatever has happened recently, do not lose site of the fact that everyone of us set out to do good

With this in mind, we need to continue

My advise is to turn this thread into something positive, learn by mistakes, and give something back in the manner you originally intended

This whole thread started over a young boy that was ill, and we wanted to help....................don't let 26 pages of comments and advice go to waste, use them for his sake.

Maureen, we have never met, but my heart goes out to you and your family, i hope my post does some good

 a very good post sir.

it really takes the biscuit....

mcveeeeeeeeee welcome to Blonde hunny.

As you have said this whole thread has been about helping Reece and his mum and now thankfully that has been sorted.

I think what Ding said is spot on.

The charity doesnt get enough income to support a wage and as much as I appeciate it was Davey and Ang's dream to make this charity bigger and better at the end of the day it is a charity.

If I decided to set up a charity I would do it as a volenteer, if I decided to help out I would not be doing it thinking I could earn money out of this.

Charity work is just that....putting in a few hours to help others.

As we know both Angie and Davey have been ill so maybe things slided a bit.

If Ang or Davey had asked any of the p4c supporters for help I'm pretty sure they would have been offered LOADS of support but I for 1 wasnt asked...was anyone else?

I think p4c is a GREAT idea and thats why I have been to several events but I would like to say that as a supporter I have went along to several DO'S knowing that I paid £xx to hotel costs...£xx travelling costs and then what ever I could afford on top was rebuys and booze.

I assumed everyone else was the same including Davey and Angie.

Im sorry...I love Ang to bits but if I had realised 70% of my rebuys were going towards Ang and Daveys hotel bill then I would not have went to be honest.

Good Post Suzanne, I totally agree

Given that I have always preached "communication is all" & "it's good to talk"....I can now confirm that.....

Maureen PM'd me her address, & I have Posted a cheque to Stacey, c/o Maureen. The cheque is in an identical amount to the Cheque Andy gave me from Game For Life Enterprises Ltd earlier this week.

I am informed that someone from P4C or Game4Life have been in contact with the Hossie & pledged £2,000. As & when that £2,000 is paid over, all the money raised by the blondes at The Western will have been paid across.

Good to hear, thank you

Yup, nearly there now.

great that maureen and family are now sorted.

As you know or some of you may know i have been raising money for game4life and on thursday next week the 21st december we are handing over the money we have been raising. £300 pounds will be going to out local childrens hospital to buy the kids that are in hospital on christmas day a little present. also we will be handing over nearly 800 pounds to the greenfields school, that teaches autistic children and children with other mental and learning difficulties and sends them on camping trips. we have got for them a marquee tent for the kids to  eat in during bad weather on thier trips, and a decent lap top. and i say that is 100% of the money we have raised in the past 3 months going direct to the children. By the way tikay we are looking for some celebrity to award our player of the year trophies and stuff, unfotunately we couldnt find one, so if you fancy a trip down to cornwall on thursday 21st please give me a shout

I am slightly confused, Sir. Is the money you raised to be given to Game 4 Life, or is it being given direct to the Good Causes? To whom are you handing over the money?

I have also PM'd you.

Congratulations on the fund-raising, whomsoever you give it to.

the money i have raised, i tell game4life about and they have authorised me to make the grants we have. all the grants will be shown of the grants page. Over the last week or so, the negative side of game4life has been shown, and i would like to highlight the positves. Just so people dont lose complete faith

I am sorry, but I just don't understand this. I have PM'd you.

If figures like what you are talking about (where in effect you are making a donation completely separate to anything from G4L) are included in G4L accounts then that means that the % from their events is even lower than those quoted earlier. If these items are listed on the homepage as you say it appears they might be?

Yep

Regards

M

How can you turn a positive into a negative. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that maybe the future of the poker tournaments p4c oranise would be to have smaller local ones where the outlay is nothing. Well this has been happening for 6 months in fact, with the cosmo club idea. We raise money for game4life, granted not much, a little over 2k in that period all of which does go directly to game4life, and through their books. So there money we have raised for the last couple of months is the money that is being donated. I live in cornwall and have identified on behalf, of game4life on daveys word, worthwhile causes and will be making the awards thursday. How can 100% of the money we have made going direct to children make the charities figures worse, or am i stupid.
They arent listed on the grants page yet but will be when we have made the award, and taken photos. But then whatever anyone said on this thread in defence of game4life or poker4charity is gonna be shot down, so i really dont know why i bother.

2k is a lot of money raised, that's good work you've been doing down there.

Maybe you'd be better running independantly from G4L, time will tell.

well done on the money raised.my son is autistic and its nice to see people raising money for a specialist school.
i have not commented on this thread and will not voice my opinions,but i will say dont let situations like this thread make you feel weary about donating to worthy charities.

I'm not taking naything away from your work - I think you have done brilliantly.

In your earlier post it seemed to me that you were saying your grants have been acknowledged on the G4L site. What I was saying is that if you are giving 100% of money raised then to reach the G4L average that was given to tikay the other events would actually be operating below that figure. Hope that makes some kind of sense.

Best of luck

I have been keeping rather quiet in this thread...actually haven't posted a thing but am a bit surprised at how this was/ is all being run.

I read first that only 30% of all money raised actually went to the cause it was raised for (IMO this was already far too little) and I agree with a previous poster that; Although the people who run P4C will undoubtebly have the best of intentions, if you can't give more then 30% of a fairly small amount you probably shouldn't be running a charity or atleast need to reconsider your strategy

If I then read that someone has raised 2k and gives it all to the actual cause but has that go through P4C/ G4L's books I can't help but think something is very wrong in the set-up of G4L and P4C no matter how well-intentioned it is.

To theoneeye well done on raising money for very worthy causes and giving it directly to the cause. I would however consider not doing it through anyone else's books, especially if week by week the books look the way they do in this case.


I have to say this whole saga is exactly why I scrutinise which charities I give to in addition to my usual one and if I were to come across a charity who's numbers and %'s are as P4C/G4L's appear to be I would never consider giving my money to that particular charity as I personally would consider it to be a waste of money.

 the 1k that we are giving away on thusday hasnt gone through the books yet cause we havent donated it till thursday, so if 100% of it has gone directly to the children then at the worse it will increase this years percentage by 3% so this years will then be 33% .May not be much on statistics but its an increase. The reason why we dont do this on our own is i truely believe in what Ange and davey are doing and with the right support then the ratio of money going to the good causes will increase. Lets be honest when u start a business u dont truely beleive that you will beleive u will be making 100% profit in the first year. and with game4life it has taken investment in time and money to start it up. Im petty sure they now have a great foundation and setup and the future looks good for the charity, with the right support. I say start this post up this time next year and there will be a dramatic improvement.... but then i am an optimist ;cheerleader; ;cheerleader; ;cheerleader;

you wouldn't expect 100% profit in the first year no but then again when runnning a chartiy you shouldn't expect any profit. Also this doesn't happen to be P4C's first year.  You are someone who should be commended as you have raised a lot of money and have given 100% of it away to good causes, if P4C was anywhere close to 100% this thread wouldn't still be going and certainly wouldn't have got so big. Running at a figure of 30%  is just not viable for a charity.

In the following scenario.....

Corporations donate prizes (ie, a buy-in to a big event), and poker tournaments are run to win these prizes.

Players are getting full value for their buy-in, as if they were playing a satelite.

Then the organisation running everything could get away with a figure like 70% administartion costs.

The prize donater gets publicity, the people get full value for their poker money spent, and good causes get a little bit (30%) too. Everyone is a winner.


This wasn't the case with P4C, half the buy-ins went to the prize pool, half the buy-ins went to charity. In effect, every time you have a £10 buy-in, you are making a £5 donation. They also make money by individual donations too, like when someone does a sponsored wot-not. Money donated in this manner should be able to get to good causes without someone taking a 70% bite out of it. Voluntry trustees can pass on donations with no or almost no expenses.

i is clear to me from reading all of this thread...that most of us care deeply about giving money to good causes...so here is a simple suggestion....set up a blonde committe of say 3 people....open a bank account....and get each member of blonde to pay £1 a month into that account..then say every couple of months the committe nominate 3 good causes to dontate mony to and ask blondes to vote on where the money should go to....there would be very little overheads....which would ensure a high percentage of money to charity...this i think would work well....

i am sure everyone on blonde can spare £1a month...and the money would be going to charites close to blondes hearts

And I'd add that satcom has also written to me via PM & offered to help with this proposal.

However, blonde is not a Registered Charity, so we can't really do it.

We are certainly more than happy to help with any charity appeals, & even "adopt" a chaity - providing it is compliant with the Charity Guidelines we Posted on Friday.

But thank you, satcom.
xx

http://www.monkeyworld.co.uk/topic.php?TopicID=12&Template=standard

 ;pokergods;

 ;)

would it be possible to hold a monthly charity torny on blonde....with the winner deciding which charity gets the money....

I don't see why not, though it's a matter for Colcheter Kev & The Baron to comment on, as they look after the Cardroom. Let's see what they say.

It's very kind of you to offer, by the way.

think it would have to be the winner of the said tourney could give the tourney to any charity that complied with your new cahrity guidelines though or there would be no point in having them. That way every player who enters the tourney would know that any money donated is going to a good cause ( or a large % of it is).

Yes it is possible, we would just have a comp with a withheld prize pool, blonde would have to take responsibility in collecting the prize pool and sending any proceeds to the winners charity.

it would take a bit of administrative planning, but it is a good suggestion and one that we will certainly look into.

Only draw back I can see is that the winner wants the money to go to a cause that is controversial etc ... perhaps the way around this would be for a thread before the game where every entrant named his chosen cause before the game took place.

perhaps the way around this..would be to have a list of charities that are permitted and the winner can choosefrom 1 of those chariies

or perhaps everyone can give the buy in to a charity of their own choosing first then we play a free tournament for nothing? (or a blonde t-shirt and cap) ;)

I thought we were doing that already i've been donating for weeks now.   ;grr;

And what happens if someone chooses a charity that is controversial in the thread in the lead up to the tournament? If i wanted the winnings to go to an abortion clinic do people opposed to abortion not play in the tourney or do they object on the thread?

Whilst i dont want to sound negative as i think any idea of trying to raise money for charity is a good one. However i just dont think it would work trying to do it in this way as people are not going to be 100% happy with other peoples choices.

If someone wants to give money to charity then just do it, dont sit around waiting for a poker tournament.

GO ON THEN, NOW - GO PICK UP THE PHONE!!

;D

Either that or you could get nemesis to do a poll of charities and which ever one got the most votes............. :D

me to..my donations have been going to the "bananas for monkeys" fund...I recieved an email for that a while ago and ever since then the money has automatically been taken out of my account...strange really as I never filled in the form.

Always read the small print!

 ;whistle;

Opening of email is sufficient requirement of consent for regular payment to be taken

hmmm, another idea maybe?

add one letter ("k") to the above sentence and rearrange two of the words.................


there - much better :)up

As a present once i recieved an adoption certificate for a baby orang at monkey world. Its my favourite animal and i really appreciated the thought.

I nominate P4C.

I'll get my coat.....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA   that's sooooooo chuffin funny!



NOT!

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

sense of humour? sorry I forgot you were female and had it removed.

if it was a P4C coat would it only keep you 30% as dry as most other coats?

Sigh....

Maybe someone from P4C will step up eventually and say what the hell has been going on, because quite honestly waiting this long is a joke.

Can people really be blamed for doubting P4C/GameforLife more and more each day?

Sorry, forgot to add something else. Trace, you are absolutely correct, it isn't funny at all.

I agree - it's not funny that under the guidelines Blonde has bought in it looks like P4C wouldn't be eligible, lets hope P4C can improve and make the grade.

I should hope that anything more regarding P4C will only be posted on P4C site.

The original issue raised in this thread has been resolved, anything else shouldn't now be posted on there IMO!

I do find that taking the p*ss out of P4C is bang out of order, but it's quite obvious none of you give a Flying F***!


Oh yeah I forgot!


HAPPY CHUFFIN CHRISTMAS!

time of the month Trace ?

middle isnt it booder?

BINGO  BANGO  BONGO!!

Why should it all be posted on P4C? So it can be all deleted/moderated? Angie has said (on p4c) that all the questions would be answered on here, so IMO I see no reason why the it should 'continue' over there (other than it's easier to be ignored)

I also think you are severely mistaken in thinking people don't 'give a Flying F***!' , this thread would hardly have reached 29 pages so far if that was the case.

obviously paying out of my own pocket to travel to Ireland....twice...to support them doesnt count.

Boodie I wasn't having a go at you!

I was having a go at the insensitivity of Dingdell's post.

P4C aint posting another word on this thread regarding P4C business.

Maureen, Stacey and Reece have received their monies - the sole intention of this thread.

Any other info  WILL be posted on P4C, but there is a perfectly legitimate reason why that isn't going to be any time soon!

yeh they gave Maureen, Stacey and Reece their money after being shamed into it so thats it thread over and they can be left to do this again the next time with someone else. If only life was that easy Trace.

Just a couple of questions if I may Trace.

Is it official that P4C will not post again regarding this business, do you have the authority to say that?

How can you state categorically what the sole intention of this thread was? I thought it was so that the people who had made donations to P4C could ask ANY fair question.

You allude to a "legitimate reason" why questions won't be answered "any time soon" Can you at least tell us what it is?

Guys, just keep it civil, please. So long as it's civil, the debate can continue as long as you wish. Once everyone has had their way, & it's been thrashed around, it will die a natural death, like all threads.

Thank you.

threads over tikay, they handed the money over so that should be the end of it- Trace says so.

If you are feeling sensitive about this issue Trace then that's understandable - you have put a lot of time and effort into something which doesn't appear to be as great as you hoped. If my post (an attempt to keep the lgihter mood that was beginning to appear on this thread) upset you I'm sorry.

However - I do care that P4C doesn't meet the criteria - I wish there had never been any question on that - as I'm sure you do.  Don't blame or get angry at me, I have not caused P4C to make these mistakes - and I don't think you have either.

At no point have I personally attacked you over this issue and I would expect the same courtesy from you.

Tracey

i thought you would at least understand how futile it is to try and negotiate or be friendly with a hormonal female dingdell.

when did P4C take trace on as their official spokesperson btw, think its a major blooper that myself. Maybe someone with a little more diplomacy would be a better choice....someone like bernard manning or chubby brown.

 rotflmfao but  :redcard:

 ;popcorn;

oops silly me  ;djinn;. Ariston - I;m sure we have never met - I'm looking forward to when we do. Is a big sloppy kiss wrong?

You really are lucky!

depends where you kiss me  ::)

grosvenor Luton?

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

well i was there last week and you missed me. I prefer to be kissed further south to be honest.....maybe the vic (not as far down as Brighton obviously).

I am a brighton specialist but tend not to play there when I'm not working. (only really funny to those who know me - sorry)

I tried asking over there and you shouted me down for 'putting pressure' on P4C over this issue. It's simple - if the figures exist, put them up - this should be a cut n paste job and we shouldn't have had to wait this long. If they don't exist, why not?

as a platnium member of P4C and also the purchaser of 2 items through the auction thats around £1000 worth or reasons why i give a flyingF***

now its been suggested that the costs and expenses of trustee meetings have added to the costs of P4C in this day an age i think that the costs of such meetings should be cut by video conferencing and if the consitution of G4L dont allow for this then its needs altering

i think someone is trying to get this thread locked down,by arguing lol.
somehow,i dont think this will happen,, good post tony kendal.

relax trace its only a forum

Hi - Geoff from The Western Club. I saw a post on the hendon mob forum and linked to this post. What is the situation with P4C and the proceeds of this event because obviously in hosting the event we feel responsible if the monies have not been allocated properly. Can someone let me know what has happened (or not) please.

geoff@thewesternclub.com

Thanks and A Happy New Year

The Western Club

Geoff, I've forwarded your message to tikay.

Thanks Geoff.

I will try & give you a bullet-point resume by e-mail, as requested.

I'll get it done today I hope.