blonde poker forum

This is a really random question, and may well have been discussed before, but didn't find anything on the forum..
Anyway, I was playing in the gutshot's 20 quid Sunday tournament today, some 80-or-so runners and. Only the final table was dealt, and the dealers there made a bit of a point of expecting a tip of around 10 percent. I mean, they did so in a nice and funny way, so fair play to them, but I still thought this was a little steep, with first price paying 470, that means they would get a tip of some 50 quid from that guy alone.. anyway, I was chip leader when we were down to three, refused a deal then, but cut one when heads-up, after the two medium stacks teamed up (well, one took out the other, that is), and I found myself being the short stack. Got a very favourable deal, paying both us of 370 and playing for the last fifty quid. (Cheap plug: Read my new blog entry on the tournament, see signature) Sadly a lack of cards and a bluff gone wrong, I ended up coming second, and we went up to cash out, when the other guy suggested to sort out the tipping together, giving the dealers 80 quid out of the 790 we had between the two of us.

I dunno, I mean I didn't really mind then, but in retrospective, surely that sort of tipping must turn quite a few people into -EV players who would otherwise break even or make a small profit? I mean, I'm not opposed to tipping, and when I go to a restaurant I'm quite happy to tip them a fiver or so, if the service was good or the food was nice or the wine was plentiful, but I don't really see why it should be so much more for dealers, instead of say 20 quid or so? It's not as if the tip should depend on the prize money or buyin, really, is it, as in a dealer in the word series is not working harder when dealing than someone in the 20 or 30 quid games I play in? And even there, percentage-based tip is a lot higher compared to say a restaurant waiter or similar service-based jobs where you tip?

I think there are a fair few people around here, who used to work as dealers or who currently are, and would be interested to hear what you think, or if you don't mind asking, what the pay is like as a dealer? As in, are tips the main source of income for a dealer? Just seemed a little strange, as surely the fee you pay to play in first place needs to go somewhere into their direction, too, no?

Tipping dealers is illegal in Licensed Venues, but is encouraged in non-licensed venues. (Those not operated under Gaming Commission guidelines).

This applies to the UK only.

we normally take £50 out of the prize pool off the top prize before the final table is dealt.

I assume you mean in non-licensed venues.....!

i don't believe it is up to the players to make sure the dealers are payed correctly.

From memory, the last time I played a tourney at the Gutshot, they took a slice from the pool BEFORE the przes were announced.

Happens in US too, a staggering amount!

now i tip for a good service

i often give over 50% tips when i i buy a drink in a casino for 2.20 and give the change
i always give atleast £2 for a free drink
i normally tip abut 10% to a taxi driver

i always leave £10 a night for the hotel cleaning staff

if i was playing in a non liecened room that was self dealt till the final
i would give the final table dealer no more than £20 - £30 uptill about £50 if it was a prive over £1000

If you let me get your drinks, clean your room and drive your car, I could give up poker.

another reason i cant making a living playing the game

10% is certainly over the top, especially when only the final table had a dealer.

I would say £40 from the £790 would have been plenty. Although if you felt the "encouragement" to tip was over the top you would have been quite within your rights to leave nothing.

As a rule of thumb 5% for wins of less than a couple of grand is plenty. 2-3% for bigger wins.

In Amsterdam I collected a little over €112,000. I left €2000 plus the change. They seemed happy with that.

Wow thats interesting. So say in the states where tipping is expected and you had a big cash at WSOP say $500k or so, would they expect a 50k tip.

No chance from me!!

LOL I'm not surprised!

I'd be over the moon with a 2k payday!

I wouldn't even consider tipping 10% if the final table was the only self dealt table. Also, as TK pointed out, tipping the dealers is illegal in a licensed UK casino. I tip the hostesses...and always try to ensure they get a half decent amount out of the total prize pool..but it won't ever be ten %..that's just ridiculous.

The main reason I want to win the WSOP Main Event is so that I can leave a $50 tip.

If you play a tournament in a casino the casino charges a registration fee which covers all the casino's expenses including dealer's wages. I've never played at the Gutshot but from what I gather is they do also charge a registration fee and with that being the case I would personally expect the Gutshot to pay the dealer's wages from the registration fee. I would also be most upset if during the play on the final table the dealer started trying to coach the players into the fact that they were expected to tip the dealer. This is purely a seperate argument about the pro's and con's of unlicensed premises, this matter will obviously be resolved shortly in the Gutshot's up and coming legal case which has been debated at length in the past and I wont go into my opinions on this thread save to say for Poker to continue to thrive in the UK we do need more cardrooms apart from the monopoly that the casinos presently maintain via licensed premises. Back to tipping though and I'm more than happy to tip waiters, taxi drivers etc but in this case I definetely see no need to tip the dealer and wouldn't have done so here. I'd probably have got some form of verbal abuse or smalltalk behind my back but having been brought up by playing in licensed premises I still see no need to tip here, thats a personal opinion and everyone is entitled to their opinion and no pressure should be put onto players to tip especially by a dealer during play at a final table.

Ahh, tipping the Valets in Licensed Venues is another matter entirely, it's legal, & should be encouraged.

 

yes, especially in the smaller buy in comps. quite a few people who show up there only drink soft drinks and tea all night and most of the money the hostesses can make is actually at the roulette tables and such..definetly not the poker table..so to ensure the ones working the poker room get tipped a half decent amount and therefore will want to work in the poker room again tipping from the prizepool is essential IMO.

At the Stanley in Glasgow there are some lovely ladies working in the poker room on a Friday night and Lord knows they are likely to make much less then the ones at the main tables simply because of all the students who only drink the complimentary cokes and never tip on those (after all, they are free)..so a couple of quid from the prize pool is well spent if you want the same great service with a smile every Friday.

one of the reasons i stopped playing live tourneys at the Grosvenor Salford when it went self-deal was the constant arguing of some of the players who dealt and wanted paying for it. Personally i didnt mind dealing as it meant that the game carried on at a decent pace and wasn't too bothered whether i received anything for it - some of the people who dealt did want paying and it ended up always causing arguements as to how they would do it. I actually stopped going after a while because i didnt like it and ended up going to blackpool where they had dealers. (despite it being an extra 90 minutes travelling and a higher standard of player.)

I have never heard of any of the guys in a self deal tourney wanting to get paid for dealing...my reply would be along the GFY line.

this was back in the day when it was ok for dealers to get tips provided you weren't casino staff.

I know a few of the players who entered the tourneys back then weren't there for the tourney - they just wanted to deal in the cash games afterwards as they would get some decent money.

The casino soon changed it so that it was no tips for anyone.

Apparently some casinos still do get the punters to pay the punter/dealers.

Yogi

so after paying to enter the comp with your hard earned money you use your skill to go on to win the comp after hrs of play and dealing the card right up to the final table someone  comes along to deal the final table and wants 10% of the winnings and brings this up when you are playing i am sorry but my reply would have bin 2 words and the 2nd one off    its like studying the form on the horses all morning the going to the betting shop putting your money on a horse then if it wins (when it wins lol ) you go with your betting slip very happy that your horse has won and you are looking forward to putting it all an the next horse lol and give it to the person behind the counter and they say they want 10% off your winnings as they put the bet on for you

I LOVE COW TIPPING!!!!!

cow tipping is a big sport up in the Yorkshire dales after the locals come out of the pub they look for a cow asleep(standing up) and tip it over i believe the record is 2 people to push 1 cow over Lol

the final 2/3 players usually put in a £60ish total tip for the waitresses, I wouldnt expect you to know that though mr. meal for 2  ;)

Oh, and Id usually tip a dealer if he dealt the final table in a self deal tourney when he wasnt in the final, I think taking time out to deal the final allowing everyone else there to concentrate on their game is worthy of a few quid although 10% is pretty high

Argh any tournament should have a house dealer on the final.


Please can these illegal rooms get shut down sooner!! That's all i want for Xmas!!!

So you're sending Santas present of a WSOP win back then?  :)

Well.......i don't play the WSOP but if Santa could promise a win then i might be tempted.....

Flushy, I run 2 tournaments a week in such a place, 100% dealer dealt, TD and Valets, fantastic structures, no registration fee!! Both £30 freezeouts deepstacked, all levels 25/50 75/150 and 150/300, 30 minute clock all through, one starts at 2pm (NLHE) and the other where we experiment with other games is a midweek late nighter. You start off with 6000pts for £30 and CAN IF YOU WANT TO have a £5 lifeline (for an extra 2000pts optional) within the first 3 levels (it is stipulated that the lifeline money goes towards the staff). All drinks and food are free, sometimes I end up doing money and sometimes I make a little (little being the operative word). You can come to our place and for £30 flat, not spend anything else, get fed and watered and your whole £30 will go towards the prizepool. Are we ripping people off? It's done for the game not the money and is not a business venture, everyone has a fantastic day of poker hopefully the staff get tipped, but that is personal choice and no pressure is put on the winners to do so, but it does help, even if it just ticks the staff over for 10 hours of working. If you do the maths, even if everyone has a lifeline it is not a great deal. It is run fairer than casinos as we do not have to pander to Big House game players, and all the staff are ex casino/TV dealers. It is not someone out to make a buck on the back of poker, it is a very nice social day for all, and in completely the right spirit. As you can tell I am not a business man as if i were we wouldn't exist. There are clubs all over the country that are run by poker players, some take the piss and some don't.

If you have dealer dealt tournaments then Flushy wasn't talking about your gaff.

Certainly that is the case in Nottingham Gala, where there are at least ten full time punter/dealers.

It is the accepted way of doing things there.

Do the Notts (punter)dealers get the reg fee as well?

No reg fee on self (punter) deal tournies there.

Well there wasn't last time I went.

That could well be where it happened one Sunday afternoon not too long ago. No reg fee as Bongo says but then you pay the equivalent to a reg fee to the dealer. Not that he was all that bad as a dealer. Altho he didnt deal me any good cards.

Yogi

Well, it was a house dealer .. three of them, to be precise, taking turns every half an hour or so. I think overall, I'd be quite happy to tip them a tenner or two if I make it deep into the cash, as it is a nice service, but will make a point of not paying those 10% again ..

As far as the legality of those places is concerned: The place is in walking distance from where I live, which is a very important argument for me, but also, as far as I've seen, the only place in London where you can play small stakes tournaments with a half-decent structure and it's almost exclusively freeze-outs rather than the rebuy-frenzy offered by other places nearby.. no justification for the lack of legality on their part, but it's still a decent place for playing poker. (Except for the tipping issue :( )

There are a few misconceptons on this thread.

In LICENSED venues, it's not unusual to have Tourneys "self-deal", & most of you have seen or played in these. But the FINAL has to be dealt by an "official" dealer provided by the Casino, with a Supervisor in attendance.

In these licensed venues, the "self-deal" guys can, & do sometimes, seek payment, & they generally get the equivelant of the reg fee - £2 in a £20 comp or £3 in a £30 comp, typically. These guys generally also frequently remind us "don't forget the dealer if you win".

In Unlicensed Venues, well, they can do whatever they wish, or, more crucially, what the market will stand.

like to know your reasons why flushy?

a number of these venues offer much better tournaments for players than casinos and many are better run.

I suppose the argument, duh it's the law ain't going to wash?

My biggest concern is security. Then it's fairness/honesty.

When i last played a festival event in the gutshot the thing that concerned me the most (more so than starting in the bar next door!) was the lack of security, i can't remember the exact amount of runners but it was well over 100 (tikay probably knows he came 2nd i could only muster 15th) anyway say there were 140 runners at £500 a head there was £70k in the place at the time just sitting there for someone to nick, it would take 3 men tops with guns to take all the cash and be gone!

On the point of fairness i have been in comps in the gutshot where chips go walk about during the break, i also don't like the way 1 player is given a rack of chips and is asked to administer the rebuys, its open to abuse. Throw in the varying amount of chips you get for rebuys/addons which just makes it to easy to take extra cash out of the pool as there is no way of calculating the pool from the chips in play, and not to mention the lack of transparency in what the take really is!


Those are a couple of my concerns, i have many more but those are enough i think to make my case.

Just thought it looks like i have picked the gutshot out, it just happens to be the place i have played at most (outside of casinos) and i think the atmosphere is great in there and most of the people are friendly.


I also happen to believe we are reaching a point of saturation with card clubs. The attendance numbers in Brighton took a big drop when The Big Slick in Croydon opened and Full House in Reigate opened, if they were to close then the casino's would be attracting much larger numbers, which i am sure would lead to a bigger variety of competitions laid on.

These places exist because the casinos have been unable or unwilling to satisfy the demand. If you have concerns about security etc then you don't have to play in them.

Do you really think that reducing competition would improve the product?

Not many of these illegal venues have a good product tbh, however a lot of people don't know any better.

The future i believe is in places like DTD.

And yes Patrick i think the product would improve, with more players they could put on a wider variety of comps as they will be able to fill the place up much more easily.

Bit of opposition...

Ask the chappies who were forced to wait four hours to answer the police's questions when Cincinnatis got raided if that was a good value night of poker?

Are slower blinds always better? Fair enough in fezzie events, but does every live comp need an all-night structure?

Most people have jobs/families etc, and there is a question as to whether a local poker micro-economy can flourish effectively when the best players win all the time. The fish need room to get lucky, win some money, and bring it back.