blonde poker forum

This hand was posted on another forum yesterday and sparked some lively debate, so i thought i'd post it here too. I was not involved in the hand so not sure how it turned out, but that isn't the point of the post.

Anway it's a strong table, 30 left, 18 get paid:

Table 12 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:04:26 ET - 2007/02/20

Seat 1: SB (18,473)
Seat 2: BB (18,215)
Seat 3: HERO (11,426)
Seat 4: UTG+1 (25,671)
Seat 6: MP (23,995)
Seat 7: Hi-jack (12,034)
Seat 8: Cut off (14,140)
Seat 9: Button (20,226)
mjorgenson13 antes 100
BB antes 100
the HERO antes 100
UTG+1 antes 100
MP antes 100
Hi-jack antes 100
Cut-off antes 100
Button antes 100
SB posts the small blind of 400
BB posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to the HERO [Ad Ks]
HERO: ??

I think there's arguments here for making a standard open raise (2000-3000), for limping with the plan to push if someone raises and also for open shoving. I think i'm more inclined to standard raise though and if we get called be prepared to shove any flop as open raising looks stronger than shoving. Thoughts?

How bad is calling, and then pushing all-in if there's any raise?  Or is it too transparent?

I'm lumping it in here.

I like that play too and think it works in this spot. Even though the Hero only has 11,400 the biggest stack at the table is only 25000. If we limp and there's a raise from the blinds to say 3000 (both blinds playing around 18k) and we shove there'll be c.16000 in the pot and it'll cost them around 8000 so we may get called by a wide range of two high card hands and weaker aces that we're ahead of, and also may get a fold if they think we've got aces or kings.

I'm pushing here.

It might pay 18, but I think the pay structure is irrelevant 18th is usually about money back.  Who tf enters a tournament to win their money back? 

Anyhow with stack position and blinds next and then presumably going up again soon, your M is even lower and this is a strong starting hend - certainly better than you are liekly to see in the next few. I jam all in here 100% of the time and want a free round.

You can't afford to get fancy and murder any chips here. AA & KK are less likely as we hold one of each (and we still beat KK 1 in 3). If someone wants to race they are welcome to try, but mid pairs should find it difficult to call.

If it's a tough table you are unlikely to get them to make a mistake by going AI - you won't get called by AQ.  However it has the advantage of picking up the blinds with limited risk. 

A standard raise isn't that much different as you will probably only be called or raised by a hand that would call an AI, plus if you are called and miss you have a difficult situation to deal with.  So I think a standard raise is an inferior play to AI.     

With limping there is a slight possiblity that you could be raised by AQ or raised by a pair that folds to an AI.  The flop isn't that difficult to play against the blinds - they will check to you and a bet of 1600 should take the pot, fold to any resistance unless you have hit a monster.  The blinds should be aware that you could have limped with a big pair, so if they show any interest post flop they probably have a big hand.

There's not much between limping and AI and probably the best option depends on what you have been doing previously and the other players.  If you have limped before and folded to a raise, then limping probably is best.  If you've pushed or raised a lot, that might be best again.

id be pushing unless your at a very aggressive table with people raising with alot less

there's alot of dead money in the pot. but not quite enough to risk shoving and losing coinflip. i much prefer to limp and reraise all-in if there's any raise. it's a powerplay baby. never fails.

Im shoving, maybe this is because i play sng's instead of mtt's.

I like the standard raise, you allow medium pockets to call preflop then shove on any board where they hopefully fold.

Limp then re-raise all in. So many players aren't able to lay down their AQ, AJ or even AT once they've stuck in a raise.

Just stick them all-in.

You don't want a raise from a Middle Pair who is then unable to fold to your all-in (and it's about 50/50 whether there's a pair out there.) Even best case scenario (Vs AX) you're less than 75% favourite.

There's 2,700 in the pot (blinds + antes + your call) so I'd have thought it's better to pick up 25% with as minimal risk as possible.

Pushing for more than 10xbb pretty much declares your hand as AK. It's rarely correct to push when you have over 10BB imo. (unopened pot)

I raise to 2500/3000 here and fire a pot bet on the flop if i am called (unless i hit then i might get cheeky)

Fair point, but at that stage and with blinds due next, I might open push with JJ too from first position. You hold something like 88/99 and are playing a stack just enough to have me covered, you suspect its AK, are you calling? Similarly, if you make it 2000 with AK and someone jams behind you, again probably a medium pair, do you now want to race with your AK?

Sure there could be a few donks pushing with AQ, but its not a spot I like to play with that stack when out of position. I have Ace high and I don't want a call, but I know that I probably have 2 live ones if I am called and that I am likely to be racing. Assuming I miss the 7 high flop, I now have to decide whether to jam or not oop. If I check, he bets, I pass and waste 2000. If I bet, he jams I lose more. If I jam, he now probably calls with his mid-pair anyhow. I just prefer to avoid these spots and I don't mind if it looks face-up.

I'd generally push, a standard raise and if someone calls leaves you too short stacked, can you call a ragged flop and if you raise have you got enough back to push them off? If there are players who like to raise an unoped pot(particuly if they are late to act) then I call/raise.

I limp-raise here on most tables where there has been some action. If the table has been folding a lot then I'd just standard raise and bet any flop/call any all in.

I'm a relatively inexperienced MTT player, but there are a couple of points here  that I don't understand.

On a tough table, an M of 5.5 isn't panic stations, or is it ?

Assuming it's not then why would anyone want to push ?  You either want everyone to fold, or to be called by AQ, AJ or worse.  You want small/mid pairs to fold.  But this is a tough table, who's going to call an all in with AQ or AJ ?  So, given that you're not panicing about your tournament life, why risk it when you're only going to be called by better hands, or at best, put yourself in a 50/50 situation ?

If , on the other hand,  you are soiling your underwear, then you need to gamble.  In which case you don't want to scare off the punters with an all in, you want to to make it attractive to call, then try & double up.

In both cases, surely a flat call is the best choice ?  Or maybe a minimum raise.  Something that keeps your options open ?

I've said stupid things in the past, so don't go easy on me if I'm talking rubbish, criticism helps me learn. 

Bollocks to M's, this is panic stations and a premium hand. I aint ever letting go here.

you have to see the cards to the river PUSH

Maybe it isn't panic stations, but you have a good hand, albeit an unmade hand at the moment. You are oop and if you do even a small % of your stack here and then lose your BB/SB in the next 2 hands, it really will be panic stations as your stack will soon be an autocall from atc.

Thats why its panic stations now.

Ok, if we were to fold here ( just assume ) & fold through our blinds, we'd have 10K, still an M of 5.  Then we have position on our side, and we can push, with position, and use our fold equity, with any 2 cards, if it's folded to us.

If we push here, and don't get called, we'll pick up 2000 chips, which again leaves our M at 5.5 after the blinds have passed.

If we call & get pushed off it, we'll have an M of 4.5 after the blinds.

Assuming , on a tough table, there will be one or two players we wouldn't want to tangle with OOP, wouldn't we be better off seeing their reaction before we commit.  If Mr Tightarse calls or raises, would it be wrong to put it down ?  Whereas if Mr Floppybot tries to raise us off the pot , we come straight back over the top.

The all in looks to me as if you don't want any callers.  So you're only getting action if you're in trouble.   If you don't get action, you're increasing your M by 1, which isn't going to win the tourney.

If you think in terms of doubling up, I still think you're better off either seeing a flop, or seeing who wants to play against you, before you commit to the hand.

Sorry this is badly explained, but why play a move that's designed not to get action if you want it, or will only get you a 50 /50 gamble at best ( or increase your stack by a comparatively trivial amount, ) if you don't want action.

My instincts say I'm wrong, and a push is good, but I can't argue a logical reason for it.

You have more than 10x the BB after the BB's have passed so there's no need to panick. M is bollox it doesn't matter what it is..M has always been bollox and scares people into making poor moves. If you are comfortable pushing then you can push. (I wouldn't) I limp raise here as it's a much stronger move and just incase 3 people decide toraise reraise and be all in you know you're WAY behind.

You are only way behind if someone holds aces. We will crack Kings one in three and if someone has aces we are very unlucky since we hold one of them.

Muha; we should be thinking in terms of winning the tournament and not cashing, but you can't win it here, you can only lose it. Ok maybe you are more likely to lose by placing our entire stack in the middle, but we could go broke post-flop anyhow. What I don't want to do is put 2-3000 out and then pass. You say it looks like you want a call - too bloody right I don't. I rarely do want a call. In fact if I could plod through a tournament where the only time my hand is on its back is the last hand of heads up, then it would make me immensly happy, reality suggests different. What I do know though, is that if I am called (and all in means most hands should find it difficult to call our medium stack) that I am likely about 50% of the time to double through. The blinds and antes are worth collecting and I am never disappointed to do so.

Then never pass. easy.

AK is a huge hand, never just try to get the blinds with it when you are a mid stack, the best scenario is to be in the blinds/button and be able to get a re-raise in, if we can't manage that then with this stack we want to make a raise that looks like we will pass to a re-raise. Induce the PP AQ/AJ type hands to make a move, or to get people calling with broadway to peel a flop off.

If you just ship it in you tell the table "i have AK goodluck to you all" AQ now gets out of the way, KQ can't call the raise to try to flop a pair etc, you can't fire a 2nd bullet at PP's on the flop anymore.

Do your best to get action with AK whilst keeping it easy to play, always CB when you are this short and do it for an amount that commits but not an obvious moron bluff, say you make it 3k and the button calls, you now have 8k left and the pot is about 7k. Lead for 5k on a J83 flop, it looks like its a thought out bet, just pushing looks like a pre-determined course of action.

While your comments might be valid for some tables, if you read the orginal post, we are dealing with a tough table - they are not going to reraise or even call an UTG raise with AQ.  They are not going to call with a PP hoping to hit a set.   

So if they don't call with AQ or PP's then they are only going to play with AA-QQ? In that case we are raising small and folding to a re-raise (basically a complete bluff) i don't think so somehow.

Tough opponents does not mean total nits.

yes

This is probably the most sensible post from Flushy ever!!!!!

Crikey, lot of opinions here. The raise to 3k is the best option imo. Leaves your options open and gives you opportunities. The problem with limp/re-raising is that the table is strong. If you limp UTG you are broadcasting to the table that you have JJ+/AQ+ and a raise from a tight table is unlikely.
MY choices in order of strength.

1) Raise to 3k
2) Ship all-in.......i call with AQ in late position here as its probable UTG is feeling the pinch and panicking.
3) Limp/Re-raise. I appreciate on a table of normal aggression this is the BEST play. But calling, then seeing a flop of 567 and having to release a premium hand here isnt the best play.

 Im with Highstacks here, you want to win the comp and get chips, play it aggressively.