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Having given this hand some more thought, I had them on KQ and not a house already - presumably because I was ahead of KQ.


So, would anyone lay this down?


Game #3232902443: Hold'em NL (£1/£2) - 2007/02/23 - 13:52:23 (UK)
Table "Geisha" Seat 2 is the button.
Seat 1: Fiemille (£174.29 in chips)
Seat 2: rednesh (£195 in chips)
Seat 3: ChillBeer (£88.63 in chips)
Seat 4: fathead4 (£249.36 in chips)
Seat 5: TheWeak (£228 in chips)
Seat 6: M3Boy (£198 in chips)
ChillBeer: posts small blind £1
fathead4: posts big blind £2
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to M3Boy [As Qs]
TheWeak: calls £2
M3Boy: raises to £8
Fiemille: calls £8
rednesh: folds
ChillBeer: folds
fathead4: calls £6
TheWeak: calls £6
----- FLOP ----- [3d 8s Qd]
fathead4: checks
TheWeak: checks
M3Boy: bets £20
Fiemille: folds
fathead4: calls £20
TheWeak: folds
----- TURN ----- [3d 8s Qd][Qh]
fathead4: bets £80
M3Boy: raises to £170 and is all-in
fathead4: calls £90
----- RIVER ----- [3d 8s Qd Qh][Ad]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
M3Boy: shows [As Qs] (A Full House, Queens full of Aces)
fathead4: shows [8c 8h] (A Full House, Eights full of Queens)
M3Boy collected £410 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot £413 Main pot £410 Rake £3
Board [3d 8s Qd Qh Ad]
Seat 1: Fiemille folded on the Flop
Seat 2: rednesh (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: ChillBeer (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: fathead4 (big blind) showed [8c 8h] and lost with A Full House, Eights full of Queens
Seat 5: TheWeak folded on the Flop
Seat 6: M3Boy showed [As Qs] and won (£410) with A Full House, Queens full of Aces
****HAND ENDS****

I am asking because I got slated in the chat afterwards, and on reviewing the hand, a made full house is a likely holding, going by his bet, in the knowledge that I have a Queen.

Well, the flat call on the flop is pretty telling... but I'd still have done the same as you.

I'm not good enough (or is it stupid enough?) to lay that down.

Is this not the hand that took place between Gus Hansen and Eric Siedel for $197,000 recently?

;)

Never feels like enough opportunities to turn the tables on the poker gods.
Smile and make the most of it.

Double smile if it's made people more likely to call in the future.

(No I wouldn't have laid it down - it's one of those situations where you know you may be behind but it's going all in anyway)


Jak.

nope, perfect turn card for you hand, if you playing 6 handed cash properly, you must go broke with this hand IMO, or lucksack the river, one of the 2

Cheers Pab

Cheers everyone else.

No disrespect to others, but really wanted Pab's opinion.

im still 'learning' a lot about cash games myself but thoroughly enjoying it!

Very similar but that came runner runner queen.

How do the words "lay down" enter your thought process with this hand?

He has led out for more than pot on the turn after calling the flop, this is rarely a FH as he scares shit load of action, he could be super scared of the FD or trying to find out if 99 is good, i give him credit for KQ/QJ/99 at best. Maybe even a FD putting pressure on you if you hold AA/KK (i imagine he has you down as a TAG) so when he bets out more than the pot on the turn i am thinking about vegas and the fucking Mirage rather than Kinnish's truck.....


VOC

He's outplayed you, you got lucky, next case.
Make sure you write down this example of luck Paul. Might make you feel better when the next abd beat comes along....................

 ;scarymoment;

Does everyone agree if the stacks are bigger without that river you just call his bet on the end? I know with the stacks you have to go broke here but if they were much bigger i'm not sure i'd even be reraising the turn given what I had seen. I guess it would help if u'd noticed him play a set similarly on the flop before. Surely he would reraise the flop with KQ to find out where he is rather than just call down 3 bets in the hope it's good? Or am I being stupid? :)

James, tbh im never laying this down. I asked cos i want to progress up the levels and it seems that winning players at high levels rarely loose big pots - from the games i have watched

I wish i could say this was true with me..................... but id be lying, lol

will try and explain a bit more why when im not playing 4 tables

Would have to (sadly) disagree with this view. Plenty of intermediate level players (myself included) are learning that the slow-playing mentality is entirely void most of the time. When you get dealt massive hands you want to get paid massively. Most people are so worried about scaring off all the action that they slow play their hands and the pot doesnt get big enough for them to stack anyone. Leading out with made FH's, Quads and nut flushes is a nice play a lot of the time in cash games where you are always looking to stack someone.
Instead of thinking "how do i get paid without scaring off everyone". Your thought process should be "how do other really big hands pay me off when i hold the nuts/near nuts".
If the money is a lot deeper, i lay this down to the right player in an internet cash game but not here obv. What does he think you have? A Queen. Thats why he pots it. But @ 1/2 these players are rare............they have normally moved up.

 

RF. Your analysis may be spot on in many tournament situations, but I'd have to disagree with this assessment for a cash game. With 4 players seeing the flop following a raise, then you have to assume there's a good chance of some PPs being out there, especially in cash games. KQ (QJ less likely) are possible holdings of course, but the only times 99 bets out here is at 3am on a Saturday morning after a Kebab.

You have to be concerned about a set here but one factor that makes this a near-impossible lay-down is the pre-flop action resulting in an already large pot on the flop. By the time you are faced with the turn bet, the pot is already too big to let go off. (This is precisely the reason why you don't want to see a flop with more than one or two players in cash when you hold AA/KK.)

For my money Smartmoneys reponses to Cash game situations are the best on this forum. Absolute quality, dont give away too much.  :respect:

I couldn't agree more if he had led at the flop, but the guy check called the flop then overbet the turn. This is a way of killing action not creating it, if they guy had led then led again you could make an argument for passing.

Several ways to play a hand as you well know mate. I like his play here. He finds out where he is on the flop, testing the water for action. When he finds out the flop is only going to be played HU he needs to find out how best to be paid. If m3boy bets £20 into that pot (of roughly £20) on that flop what is he saying?
He is saying i have a queen/overpair son and im not gonna give you the odds to draw to a weak flush. (imo bet was too big on the flop) (£15 does same job). Once opponent realises that you have possible overpair but most likely a queen he wants to max profit.
Second Queen is going to kill action from an overpair anyway. The hands the second queen helps are AQ/KQ which are not going to be able to fold. Massive overbet on the turn is designed to max hands which contain a Queen. After all, AA/KK no longer pays this hand off anyway. Far better to stack a guy with a queen here than win an extra £20 of a guy with AA/KK on the river.

Gd debate though. How'd Brighton go? I was still k.o'd from the 24hr jobby. Next one ill come down for with a bit of planning.

In a 6 handed cash game this hand plays itself at almost any level, with full house vs top trips ace kicker on a non-flush/straight board, you are not playing agressive enough if you dont get stacked. It could have played out a few different ways but all the money should go in on the turn somehow. If you dont get stacked with AQ here you are playing too passive IMO

Fantastic post, you are 100% correct i see the method too it now, this is probably why i am a bad cash player.

Brighton no good, AA got smashed up, then managed to lose £1100 in the cash, couldn't make a hand stand up in either game! Come for the Rendezvous festival its better.

Pab, against most average opponents i get stacked by his play here. Against known good opponents i might find a fold.
Tell me a hand that he wants to overbet the turn with that you beat (assuming he is a strong player).

Cheers flushy.

At the risk of exposing our mutual appreciation club :P, I agree completely. Against certain opponents, a fold here is possible if he wants to force the pot.

No, thank you! I have never learnt as much from a single PHA post as that.

Instafold.

lol not really. Dont think I'm putting him on a Queen though, to be honest, although some KQ QT holders do play it just like that.
I think Hansen Seidel was AQ v 88
and A8x QQ Seidel 888 all in river.

That's right. Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeRQeIdymYM

Hansen took so long to call the turn bet, it's clear he figured his top two pair could be behind.

For the record, I think the best way to play this hand [the one in the link] in Hansen's position, when you suspect you opponent has a set, (at least at an online $1/$2 table) is to min raise the turn. This tells him exactly where he is at a much cheaper price than calling the turn, and then calling the river bet. (When he's re-raised it becomes an easy fold.)

 rotflmfao