blonde poker forum

Welcome. This is the first part of this particular hand, the turn and river will be revealed on Wednesday whilst the outcome and your opponents hand shown on Friday and what might be the reasons for his betting patterns.

The Hand

This hand is from the EPT event in Baden from 2006, there are ten players and two tables left and we are playing shorthanded, with blinds at 6k/12k with a running 1k ante.

Thang Nguyen -- 308,000
Peter Eichhardt -- 600,000
Daniel Dodet -- 217,000
Sasa Biorac -- 228,000
Ben Johnson -- 352,000

Here you'll be playing as the small blind Thang Duc Nguyen holding Aspades 5c.

Your opponent is Peter Eichardt who elimanted the last Brit Peter Gould early on, and is a typical aggressive scandie who has been raising every hand but was stopped once when Daniel Dodet pushed after Eichardt's utg raise. He is also the chip leader.

Daniel, Sasa and Ben all fold round to Thang, who limps in the SB, Peter checks.

Board:

2h 6s 4c

1. What do you do preflop? And why? Do you differ from Thang or do the same?

2. After the preflop action, is that a good flop for you? Out of position, what is your best strategy now?

3. If you plan to bet this flop, why? If you don't plan to bet this flop, why not?

What Thang and Peter did on the flop will be revealed on Wednesday, as will the turn and river cards.

Enjoy, and please post your answers and thoughts here, as well as feedback and any other ideas here. :)

Nemesis has been posting poker hand questions on HMF,a lot of people have enjoyed participating in these exercises and there has not been 1 case of ridicule of other posters opinions.I hope the same common courtesy is shown here.

WOW, I reread that and Isound like Tighty, but I guess you know where Im coming from ;)

I can't believe you dare suggest I talk like that. Things have changed, I was an original poster, listen to me


There, I now sound like I know It!   ;D ;D ;D



(good point though)

Hand of the Week sia  great idea, looking forward to reading the opinions on this hand

hmmm. I suspect he only limped because he was afraid of a reraise from the agressive scandie. Fair enough, but I don't really like it. I'd raise to 30k and follow up on the flop.

Assuming he'd call;
Yeah I wouldn't mind this flop after raising. I'd  lead out here. Bet 50k-ish and see what the Scandie man does. I am ofcourse hoping to hit a three of course but am representing an overpair.

As the way it's played I'd still lead out, bet 18k-ish.

if i was thang i would play it exactly the way he did

but as i am not thang i would of raised too 52k preflop

if called i would of pushed all in on flop because any other

raise would of committed me or given him odds to call with a draw

probably

have you taken into account the running ante's your giving him odds to call preflop with NE2 and on the flop with any draw

i just remembered i am in sb so the preflop raise would of been to 40k still doesnt change the flop though as any meanfull bet would be commiting me to it so get the money in first

1 - Fold. My reasons are that I do not want to play out of position against the chip leader. I have the sort of hand that can lead to trouble if I hit an ACE on the flop. I just really really hate playing from the small blind against anyone even when I have a monster. If I have built up a tight image at the table I may raise here but I am definately not calling.

2&3 Given that I really do not want to play the hand in the first place I don't think my comments on what to do now would be of much use to anyone.

I would fold pre flop.  I witness too many players haemorage chips when they limp with a A-rag because they feel compelled to call a raise after making up the blind.  Plus the fact that I am out of position agasint an aggressive CL is not an ideal situation to be in.  I would rather wait and fine a better situation to get my chips in. 

Those of you who have said you'd raise pre-flop - what do you do if you get re-raised?

If I were a super aggressive Scandie in this situation (on final table bubble with two players shorter than the raiser), I'd be pushing here. Thang's raising range will be very wide, but his calling range should be very narrow - ideal situations for a big-stack Scandie to smack him about.

If I were Thang, I'd only be limping, and folding to a raise.

With this flop I'm torn between check-calling and check-folding. Gutshot and a overcard is worth a check-call, but being in a pot with the table big-stack OOP is exactly the situation I want to avoid at this stage of the comp.

Having a think about it leads me to go for check-fold - there's no reason to get involved in a situation which can go so wrong in so many different ways.

I raise pre-flop to 36k

I would raise here for a number of reasons...

1. I probably have the best hand right now, so why not seize the initiative?
2. If I limp I would fully expect my aggressive opponent to raise with position and chip power.
3. If my opponent raises I wouldn't call - so I would be thinking either raise myself or fold.
4. I am out of position
5. To acquire some information

After the flop...

Not a great flop for me, but then again probably not a great flop for my opponent who has just called my raise. I represented a hand pre-flop and so I would lead out again with a bet of half the pot. I may still have the best of it and I am on a draw to improve so I continue taking the initiative here.

If you decide to limp pre-flop the complexion of the hand changes I think. If you lead out after the flop, into an aggressive opponent, on that board, I would fully expect to get re-raised as standard. What are you betting with that you wont lay down to a re-raise from the chip-leader? Betting out with a flopped straight would be a good play though!

By limping pre-flop Thang has potentially got himself into a sticky situation now

1. He can lead out now, get re-raised, probably folds
2. He can lead out now, get a call, doesn't improve, and check-folds
3. He can check-call with nothing
4. He can check-raise with nothing
5. He can lead out again on the turn with nothing

All of these options are not great and this is why I raise pre-flop.

ALways raise this pre, don't care if he's aggressive refuse to be bullied your hand is likely best. Having limped from the SB and seen him check from the BB i'm a bit worried about this flop, but it's also not that bad for my hand. Would be nice to know how I have been playing up to here, depending on that could be any of Bet/fold to RR Check/Fold or Check/Raise. I would never be in this situation though you can't limp this hand in this situation IMO. IF your raise gets called jam the flop. it's not that bad a flop for you in a raised pot. IF you get reraised, it's up to you. THing is he knows u've seen him being aggressive so you arent tryin this with utter toss you can't let aggressive players make u play hands that should be raised weakly.

i would proberly fold to a reraise due to the fact there is no hand i am a big favourite against
but i would certainly not give him a walk if i gave the BB a walk when i have A5 in the SB i will be letting him have a walk more often than not

the amountof time i steal the blinds in this postion makes up for the few time he comes over the top and if you let players know you can laydown in thee postion you will get players coming over the top of you when you have a premium hand too

1. I limp preflop and make up the bb - if my opponent is as aggresive as you say then my plan is to limp then check-raise. If he is as aggresive as you say then he may well reraise me if i raise and then i cannot call and have to pass. By checkraising preflop i have the opportunity to win more chips but if my opponent just checks out of the BB then i get to see a flop anyway and can reassess the situation.

2. Now that my opponent has flat called it isnt particularly that good a flop - i know my opponent is aggresive so i check.

3. My thinking would be that by showing weakness that my opponent may well take a stab at trying to take down this pot being the "aggresive scandie". If he checks then i get to see a free card, if he bets between 25-40k then i smooth call with the intention of trying and force him off the pot on the turn and if he bets more than 40k then i'm going to pass.

What you're saying is correct but what can often happen in a battle of the blinds is that neither player believes the other player has a hand.

Small Blind Raises with Ace rag thinking he has best hand

Big Blind thinks to himself "He's at it. He's raising me with junk my King rag is probaly in front here". So he re-raises

Small Blind think thinks to himself  - "He thinks I'm at it!! He thinks I'm stealing his blind with any old crap, well I've got an ACE and I know I'm in front" Re-Raise

Big Blind then thinks - "This guy wont take a hint will he?"  "I'm ALL IN!!!"

So before you know it you have created this monster pot with a pish hand out of position and are being put to a marginal decision for all your chips.

There are some great players out there who can figure it out and make the right call/fold when this battle of the blinds unfolds but I'm not one of them. I'd rather just fold like a wee girl and have the button on the next hand.

(1) I like to mix it up, but I see no reason to automatically raise here. If you do, it reeks of an Ace, you'll probably get called and you'll be in weak position with your opponent having a good idea of what you might hold. Also, if he has a stronger Ace, which can easily make the call, you could find yourself in hot water if an Ace hits due to your shabby kicker. I'm happy to limp here.

(2) I think it's a pretty decent flop for what you have. I'd have a pop here.

(3) You've got a draw and a probable over card, so why not make a bet and see what happens? If I get called though, I think I'd consider myself beat (rainbow flop don't forget) and put on the brakes. Not sure I'd want to fire a second barrel out against the chip leader unless a high card came that might scare him off.

 ;yippee; ;yippee;

I think the limp/reraise is also a nice idea as mat says, but it shouldn't "reek of an ace"...whatever they smell like :P. Or is my raising range in this situation too wide :(...probably down to J9 here i raise most of the time

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt  :D


1. What do you do preflop? And why? Do you differ from Thang or do the same?

Taking into account the fact that I'm playing as myself, I'm clearly the worst player at the table, so it's in my advantage to be all-in pre-flop. Eichhardt has raised every hand but folded when Dodet pushed (I take it that's all-in?). I'm marginally ahead of a random hand and I'd imagine his range for calling half his stack is relatively tight but I've no idea what the odds are of him having it are and I don't want to have to deal with a re-raise. I either pick up the blinds, get called and draw out or get beat, worse case I net sixth place in an EPT event. May not the coolest move but I'm boomsticking this every day of the week.

2. After the preflop action, is that a good flop for you? Out of position, what is your best strategy now?

Seeing as 1 leaves me a lack of post flop options - If I'd done the same as Nguyen then I don't like the flop and I check fold here. Looks like a textbook description of the kind of flop that gets you in trouble when you play hands like A5o.

3. If you plan to bet this flop, why? If you don't plan to bet this flop, why not?

No bets, with 12 rounds in chips left there are bound to be better spots to be monkeying around with the chip leader.

great thread already guys, keep it coming


Flushy? totalise? thoughts please!

I'd be more inclined to play J 9 here than A5.

I was playing a tourney earlier the night, and although not anywhere near the same level and I foung myself in the SB with A 5 suited.  Agaisnt my better judgement I called and flopped two pair OOP I was content to led the BB bet into me and he duly did.  I waited till the river and check raised him he thought for an etrenity before calling with A6 - he flopped a bigger two pair.

I just don't feel comfortable playing weak aces in the blind.

This isn't the final table, there are two tables left. Both are five handed. Does this change your shove policy?

I have to say I have fully looked at this hand, and I found it fascinating, I try to understand why the players do what they do but the reasons I come up with may differ from everyone elses, so I don't think there's a truly right or wrong answer, which makes this all the more interesting for a debate as opposed to other hands.

 ;whistle; D'oh, different matter, I play turtle, call and fold to a reraise. Still don't like flop, check/fold and wait for a better spot. Don't know why I'd change my tune though, a lot of my original assumptions remain true. Be interesting to see the rest of it.

as we all no the blind vs blind situations kill alot of tourney players ..we all know the easiest way to win a tourney is not to be all in so dont f*** with a crazy scandie  in a blind vs blind..also alot of people will prob not think any raise or re raise perflop from peter is v strong and prob put there chips in when he could have you beat all ends up and just because you think he is a lag you do all your stack with  Aspades 5c with a good chance off winning  when you only have 13k invested ,,, thats the bottom line of it all really

obviously been as we are playing as thang duc we have tag image i think so any way lol

i call preflop simple reason if you raise he will be feeling confident that you have a pair or some sort of ace  so being as he has you on a hand he will call and try play you off the hand++ i dont wana raise with  Aspades 5c againts a mad scandie just incase he raises you have to pass.

on the flop you got to remember that you only have 13k in the pot with a gutshot and a over whicch is good but you dont want to get to  frisky with the chip daddy,, if like thang done jus make up the blinds aint realy that bothered about it as you are playin with a mad scandie.there will defintly be a better spot to get the chips in.


look forward to see what happened floppy

I do agree with this sentiment.

However, let's assume you have been playing solid poker so far. You are putting in a pretty smallish raise of 36k, into the current big stack, an aggressive opponent, on the final-table bubble. So I think in this particular situation your raise would carry additional credit, and get through.

Raising here announces that you have a hand and simply asks your opponent a question. We do actually have a hand so asking the question is perfectly justifiable.

I think raising a standard amount here and seeing how your opponent re-acts is the right play pre-flop. By calling you are just inviting your aggressive opponent to take the lead in a pot you could quite rightfully win. We are giving our opponent too much of an edge if we call or fold here.

mantis i like your thinking apart from the fact your missing the fact there is a running ante meaning he is getting better odds to call or raise by making it 40k you are now betting nearly the full pot

at this stage 4k might not seem like much but its huge and will effect the bb thinking imho

I've only skim read the replies so this may have been mentioned before. But does the fact that an aggressive Scandie who's 'been raising every hand' suddenly now checks pre-flop, when in position smell funny? To me it does.

Another reason why in my post i said that i would have gone for the limp then hopefully check-reraise option preflop. He had been consantly aggresive but seemed to then back down when someone came over the top of him.

I would either flat call planning to push to any bully raise from him preflop. Though sometimes chicken out.
Doubt I am raising into him with such a marginal hand, can't take a re-raise.

Postflop, if he checked preflop instead of re-raising then i am giving this one up, this flop is just horrible in my eyes, he could have a pair or any draw, or even have a monster after his uncharacteristic check preflop.
I am beating the likes of Q8 or K5 or 8 10, all hands he would have raised preflop IMO. Even if he had 83 off he has a draw.

But the moment he checked preflop my gut feeling is "sneaky bastard alert!".

Wish I had this much time to think on mansion lol, the above took more than 30seconds.

Thanks for all your thoughts so far. Here is the 2nd part.


Blinds 6k/12k with a 1k ante.

Thang limps in the SB with  Aspades 5c, Peter checks.

Board:

2h 6s 4c

Thang bets 12k, Peter calls.

Turn:

5h

Thang checks, Peter bets 40k, Thang calls.

River:

7c


1. What do you think of Thang's flop bet? And what do you perceive from Peter's call?

2. You hit 2nd pair on the turn, what now? If you intend to call here, what will you do on the river? Will it depend on the river card itself?

3. What do you believe Peter is holding? Overall, how do you think Thang has played the hand?

flop bet is too weak cant gain any info from the fact it was called
on the turn just give up played it weak from start to finish give up and remember to play the next hand stronger


i think peters 40k bet on turn is weak too but could read it as a please call me or a i have nothing bet but impossible to tell from info

1. Purely from a 'take a stab at a pot' perspective, there's nothing wrong with leading out generally, but he's trying it against the wrong sort of opponent. Against a tight player, you've a good chance of taking the pot, and even getting action here gives you a good idea of where you stand. But 12K into a pot of 30K isn't going to make Peter fold the majority of his hands, and won't give Thang any real info. Peter's call could mean anything.

2. Now Thang's flop actions bite him on the bum. The turn card gives him second pair, top kicker, but that could be a mile behind. When he checks, Peter will bet close to 100% of the time, so, again, Thang learns nothing. However, Thang's calling of the bet does give Peter a lot of info - he knows Thang is properly interested in the hand now. So Thang goes into the river out of position against a player who knows more about the strength of Thang's hand than Thang knows of his opponent's holding. See why I originally didn't want to get involved on the flop? The pot is now 134K and Thang has no idea where he is. He's in a world of trouble. Every possible river action has risks. He doesn't know if any money he puts in is a bluff or a value bet, whereas if Peter bets, he'll know whether he's bluffing or milking.

3 Peter saw the flop for free and his actions so far are consistent with playing position and his opponent - they could be with any two cards. Thang has allowed himself to drift into a horrible position.

i concurr

I think that not raising pre-flop is coming back to haunt Thang now

To be honest I think he's making a bit of a mess of the hand.

He didn't raise pre-flop with what could well have been the best hand, decides to bet the flop with nothing, and then checks the turn when he DOES hit something. Pre-flop and the turn are two opportunities to announce he has SOMETHING. He does nothing. The flop is clearly the least opportune time to make this announcement and yet this is what he does. And not in a very convincing way.

I think check-calling 40k on the turn, money that could have been used to raise pre-flop, are the actions of someone who hasn't a clue where they stand but are reluctant to give the hand up. Calling the turn bet is a mystery actually. What card is he hoping to see? I imagine he will hope to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. But is his aggressive opponent going to allow that to happen? I doubt it.

5-handed I think you must play any hand strongly. Checking and calling should be reserved for hands when you feel sure you have the best of it. Is this how Thang feels in this hand?

It wouldn't surprise me if Peter flips K-8 after Thang check-calls a river bet. This is what usually happens when you play weakly. Thang can use his chips to raise pre-flop, he can use them to continuation bet on the flop, and he can use them to check-raise the turn if he thinks he has the best hand. Weak betting and check-calling is not the best short-handed poker I have ever seen.

The river comes a 7 and now Thang's meek play has lead him into a whole host of trouble. What can he beat? If he bets out and is called he looses, if he bets out and is re-raised he folds, if he checks how can he call a big bet? He is now at the mercy of his big-stacked aggressive opponent....nice!

indeed!

I limp in preflop - I do this because if I get reraised I must fold and that quite likely. If he checks we have a better idea what he might hold.

I lead out on this flop, 20K or so - I might have the best hand but if i dont it is probably only to a pair and I still have an over cart and st8 draw plus I can represent if a high card falls on the turn. If i get reraised, a good reraise would almost certainly win it right there unless he had a made St8 or top two pair.

1. What do you think of Thang's flop bet?
Pretty much with everyone else, the 12k bet isn't doing anything other than building the pot from what I can see, if there is a rythme or a reason to it it's beyond me.
 - And what do you perceive from Peter's call?
From Peters call I think I would rule out any PP between 77-QQ, too much danger of an overcard falling and I be looking to shut it down here with any of these hands

2. You hit 2nd pair on the turn, what now?
I'm still check/folding. I don't know where I am and I don't reckon 2nd pair is changing the situation much.
 - If you intend to call here, what will you do on the river? Will it depend on the river card itself?
If I'm calling here then it has to be with the intention of hail-marying it on the river regardless of the river card ( but my baws would have to be huge )

3. What do you believe Peter is holding?
Put a gun to my head and ask me to name a hand then 22, other guesses would be 33,44,66,KK,AA.
 - Overall, how do you think Thang has played the hand?
Me no likey. If he correctly reads Peter for having nothing or takes him off a genuine hand on the river then I'd guess thats why I'm not scaring the wsop any time soon.

Sometimes its worth looking for simple explanations rather than complicated ones.  I think Peter doesn't raise pre-flop because he has a bad hand and feels that Thang might be setting him up for a raise if he bets.

The flop comes down and he calls the small bet with a drawing hand - something like 95.  On the turn he hits his 5 and when Thang checks he bets his pair.

 

For those of you wondering what happened at the end and what Peter had, be sure to click the link below for the final reveal.

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/9131 (http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/9131)

Thanks to everyone who took part and be sure to give it another crack on Monday.

IMO you are wrong on nearly every point.

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."

Elaboration please...or at the very least, the rules on how to play Scottish... ::)

I was actually saying i thought the guy played the hand well, i would have done the same as him on every street. It was your analysis that i thought was all wrong, not the guys play.





BB4 a game of Scottish is on the cards.

I don't really get why raising preflop is considered a good play here?

Surely creating big pots oop with marginal hands against aggressive opponents is the way to bleed chips pretty fast....

If your opponent was very weak tight then raising could be ok as you should be able to understand what he holds more easily.

I'd say it would be far superior to raise with a hand like 67s or 9Ts as your later decisions in the hand are likely to be more cut and dried and less likely to land you in hot water and you disguise your hand.

The only way to disguise a raggy ace is to limp with it. As a result I like the limp preflop too as it controls pot size and gives the ace some disguise.

I don't know if the river action is described somewhere? If it went check check then it could be argued Thang played the hand well by getting his chips in ahead on every street despite being OOP. Of course there's always the chance he would've got blown off the pot on the river if Peter had missed.

what happened to this week's hand of the week?

Yeah where is the next one?

I thought this thread was really interesting. It shows the very different attitudes that exist between players.

For instance this train of thought is a world apart from how I think. Not knocking it of course.

I raise pre-flop because I feel I have the best hand. A correct assumption in fact. So why not raise with the best hand and take the initiative here, particularly when you are going to be oop throughout the hand?

I am not necessarily looking to create a big pot. I am giving myself a chance to win the pot right now. I am asking whether my opponent wants to play against me with a weaker hand. Does Peter want to call a raise with his Q-7? If he doesn't...I win the hand. If he does...let's go.

I just can't see how you limping pre-flop is controlling the size of the pot. As soon as you limp your opponent is in total control of the size of the pot. If I was the BB in this hand, same conditions, chips etc...I raise your limp. So now I control the pot size. Are you calling my raise oop? If the BB checks it is he who has decided to keep the pot small not you.

If Peter does call then my raise pre-flop has set up my post-flop continuation bet. Is my opponent going to remain interested in the hand on the flop with Q-7? I personally don't think so. So if I didn't win the hand pre-flop I win the hand on the flop. Not raising means missing 2 chances to win a hand that Thang lost. That is why I raise.

I don't think a raggy ace is strong enough to disguise. E.g. He raises you fold.

I said in my posts that he played the hand poorly and would probably get outdrawn on the river....he got outdrawn on the river.

So although I don't agree with this post I still found it interesting. More importantly I have put the reasons why I don't agree.

Sorry Boldie, with Snoopy and I both doing updates over the course of the week, we've not had time, I'm sorting out one for next week though.

Anyway here's my own personal reasons why I think both players did what they did, not saying I agree though:

I think Thang limps with the intention of re-raising, mainly because if he raises and gets re-raised he's stuck. Eicchardt merely switches gears and slows down, when the flop comes Thang bets because otherwise Eicchardt will bet and Thang will lose the initiative, Eicchardt calls, I believe, just bluff any card on the turn because if Thang has any piece of the flop then any turn card is a bad card for him. Thang hits the turn and check/calls because he thinks he has the best hand but still can't bet it and is scared of the gutshot, whereas Eicchardt follows through with his (now semi-) bluff. The river hits Eicchardt and now he has a hand good enough for showdown, obviously if he missed he'd have probably fired another bullet.

No worries mate...just that we really enjoy hands like this to analyze...some proper thinking to be done abnd interesting opinions to read.

Yes you have the slight best of it. Could be argued that position negates the small % you are favourite here but fair enough you are ahead preflop.


Laggy scandinavian calling raise with weaker hand hoping to outplay your hand with position? I agree unlikely. He's most likely waiting for aces.............. :) 

By raising you are increasing the pot size. I could go into details about why, using citations from maths texts concerning the execution of various mathematical operators. To cut a long, probably hideously dull story short though, I'll leave it with 2*2=4.

The size of the pot on future streets is a function of activity on earlier streets. This CAN result in checking creating a LARGER pot by the river, for instance a check may encourage an opponent to fire 2 bullets rather than one at a pot. In general though, creating a larger pot preflop and on the flop will result in a significantly larger pot by the river as bet sizes will also increase. If a pot is 10k preflop, the size of the pot by the river will generally be smaller than if the pot is 20k preflop.





Yes, being in position offers you a much better opportunity to control pot size, that's life in poker. It goes to show how important position is. Using tools like the check raise, slowplay and small lead/ 3bet are ways to counter it but there's no denying a good player has a big advantage in position.

So you raise if I limp....Position raise.... When i spot you breaking your Oreo without putting it to your ear, I check raise you allin and you pay the stupid cat his money. ..

This is hypothetical. Maybe I limped to exploit a position raise by cr'ing, maybe I limped to play possum only to make a play at a later hand.

There are different reasons to limp in blind situations that don't necessarily mean weakness. But as a general rule you extend pot control and with marginal hands with some sort of strength, I like it as you disguise the hand.

Being results-orientated is not a good way to analyse hands(see later) but you'll notice this aggressive opponent didn't raise here, so the pot was kept small with a marginal hand. Hmmm interesting.....


Right, so raising preflop and continuation betting a random board is keeping the pot small?

By the time you continuation bet the flop, a half pot bet to full pot bet  is 40-75k. This is a decent proportion of your chips that you are now putting in blind. If called you will be playing for the bulk of your stack most likely if you bet on future streets.

"Is my opponent going to remain interested in the hand on the flop with Q-7?"
It's a good read that he has Q7! Wow, it's almost like you could see his hand already.... Give my regards to Lois Lane and Lex Luther. I hope you use your x-ray vision for good though and not just to look down Jennifer Tilley's top.

You don't know his hand. It is almost random. You are betting a large % of your stack with little or no information on his hand.

By raising preflop you have a situation where you stick a large amount of chips in blind out of position, with possibly the best hand, yet one where you can be blown off without knowing where you are.

Against a weaker opponent then raising is probably not so bad as you pick up the pot much more often preflop and he is  less likely to play back at you so your decisions are more cut and dried.


You increase the strength of a marginal hand by disguising the situation when an ace flops as you now have a relatively STRONG hand  yet one he will be less likely to beleive and more likely to put chips in,  in bad shape.


Cool. I'm surprised you don't win the lottery every week with this insight. I guess you spread them out a bit so no one gets suspicious. Now that's good thinking sir!

You don't know the river card till it comes out. Being outdrawn is not necessarily a bad thing in poker and certainly not a guarenteed mark of poor play. Usually the reverse in fact.


Fair enough! Me too :)

Good thread though i must say.

Fair play for the re-post JungleCat. I appreciate the time taken to respond in a comprehensive manner.

I have my thoughts and explained them fully and you have your thoughts that are completely different but have also explained them fully. That's a pretty good poker forum thread right there.

To avoid arguement I wont dispute the superhero tag you give me.

I am tying my actions into the actual holding of Q-7 now that it has been revealed, this is true, but I did demonstrate how I would play the hand before I knew this. And nothing changed. So I played the hand out fine in my eyes (x-ray or not)

Good Luck

I have just re-read this thread and think that the range of views that exist amongst different types of players is very interesting.

I advocated raising pre-flop and after digesting everything I stand by this play.

This is why....

A number of players resist raising because of the LAG Scandinavian in the BB, his chip power and position. But I think that the equation...Laggy Scandy + Big Stack + Position = Will Play Back At You...is too simplistic for me to accept. If you take this view then you are not giving your opponent credit for having any depth of thought other than "I am a laggy scandie and it is my job to outplay you every hand".

When I set about analysing this hand I didn't think about what THANG SHOULD DO I imagined what I WOULD DO. I am a TAG player. So I have spent the day playing a select number of hands strongly. It has not been easy to knock me off a pot and I have always shown down strength when I have pressed a hand. Short-handed play is ideal territory for me and I am now intent on capitalising on my TAG image.

The reasons why some people are cautious here e.g. Short-handed, Laggy Scandanavian opponent with chips, Final Table Bubble, Poor Position etc....are THE VERY REASONS I CHOOSE TO RAISE. I hold the view that my opponent will consider these factors and wonder why this TAG is raising into him at this point. He wont just play back at me because he comes from Scandanavia. He will deduce that I am raising with a genuine hand and a hand that I think is worth raising with IN SPITE of the circumstances. In addition I suggested raising 36K. So I am not pushing him out of the pot I am inviting him into it. Why is this TAG doing this here?? He looks down to see a random hand...let's say Q-7. I just don't accept that he is going to want to play silly buggers here. If he re-raises pre-flop he is all too aware that he could be facing an all-in from a player that pushes strength. Does he want to take that risk? He also knows that I know he is a LAG. If he does call with his unpromising hand this TAG IS going to bet the flop...that's for certain. Is he going to play back at this TAG on the flop with his Q-7?

Although I respect my opponent and appreciate his style of play I give him credit for having similar thoughts about me.

When we get into these short-handed bubble situations the TAG has a powerful table image to exploit. Importantly, the fewer players at the table, the less relevant cards become. It becomes more a battle of wills. If he doesn't respect my bets after seeing my play throughout the day then he IS going to be doing his chips to me sooner or later, that's for certain. BUT HE DOES KNOW THAT. So IMO he will just walk away pre-flop or on the flop and look for a better spot.

Short-handed you must impose your style and your will on your opponent rather than fearing what he is capable of. Let him fear what you are capable of. Just because he comes from Scandie Land doesn't mean I am going to be licking his balls during this session and giving him a free walk every five hands.

FACT - TAG's raise with strength.

FACT - This TAG thought he had the best hand here. CORRECT.

The LAG would do well to remember that.

If the SB is a tag i am MORE likely to play this hand in position, you raise i call the flop comes bricks i can almost always get you off it.

So you make it 36k, i make it 90k, you are going to Jam with A5? No you pass and wait to 'trap me' by then i have taken 200k off you and end up doing 90k back to you....

Nothing I like more than an opponent who doesn't know whether he's coming or going

Next.

I won't always do the same thing every hand.

With the stacks the way they are i am 100% not folding, probably calling about 70% with Q7 and re-raising 30%

Surely this level of uncertainty is not good for your game.

Like i say things are situational. If i am a short stack i will pass this hand. If i cover the SB 2-1 and he is a lag, i will let it go. If i have a 2-1 lead and he is a TAG i will play.