blonde poker forum

A special post-bB4 this week, thanks to Tighty for this one. ;)

£50 rebuy, 92 runners, £13.8k prize pool. Blinds are 100/200
 
Just after rebuy period. Folded round to the small blind.
 
You're playing the part of the small blind with Kd 2h. Your image is that of an aggressive young player with 8,000 chips.
 
The big blind has 9,000 and is slightly older than you, not quite as aggressive, but capable of making a move now and then.
 
You complete the small blind and the big blind checks.
 
Flop:
 
Kh Qd 9s

You're first to act.


1. Is it worth passing or raising preflop? If so, why?

2. Now that you've limped, how much do you like this flop?

3. What is your intention on the flop? Bear in mind how this will affect yours and your opponents decisions later on in the hand.

So this wasn't based on a hand Tikay played?


LOL, definately not!!

 ;whistle;

Hmm, interesting one......

Those that saw the hand, please don't spoil the thread by giving the ending away!

Not for 100 of an 8,000 stack.


Top pair with a backdoor flush draw, could be worse.


Out of position, I might check call this one to disguise my top pair and then bet out on the Turn. If I'm met with resistance, then I'll probably tread with caution from there on in.

Question 1: Is it worth passing or raising preflop? If so, why?

My inclination would be to fold pre-flop. You see a King and think that it may be worth a raise but the deuce that goes with it is decisive for me. Often when you see this sort of hand you will only be playing one card after the flop. So the four factors to consider here are A) A one card hand...B) Out of position after the flop...C) Pot size negligible...and D) Opponent's stack size.

You have only contributed 100 chips to the pot, there is no value in the pot, and your stack size is more than comfortable at present. Although it would be nice to play and win every hand the reality is this is not a favourable situation for you. I would use the 100 chips I have already spent to fold and show the BB the King. This would negate my "aggressive" image somewhat and then I would use this investment to raise into him later when the pots are more juicy.

Question 2: Now that you've limped, how much do you like this flop?

As expected I am using just one card to make my decisions now. OK I have top pair but the dangerous drawing flop coupled with the still insignificant pot and my aggressive image would make me cautious here. I just don't see the need to get into a barny with the BB over this and so resist playing the hand strongly. I don't necessarily want to give up top pair but I do want to keep the pot under control so I check and watch with interest what my opponent does.

Question 3. What is your intention on the flop? Bear in mind how this will affect yours and your opponents decisions later on in the hand.

I am prepared to call a small bet. I feel that if I do bet myself my opponent who knows I am an aggressive sort may come over the top with any piece of it or a 10 for example. Then I have put myself in an much tougher position at this early stage in the tournament than the small pot justifies. If I do bet and he calls I am still not altogether sure where I stand. So at this point I check and see what the BB wants to do. His actions will give me the information to help me decide how to proceed.

As a side note...later in the tournament I would play this hand far stronger than I would now.

There was no Flush Draw snoops, that was a transcription error.  In all other respects, the description is accurate.

Mantis, I love your posts...saves me plenty of typing :)

raise preflop, people give up on pots too easily when the blind---> stack ratio is quite deep, so you take the initiative and then frequently take the pots. How your hand figures against a random hand isn't really that important, because you are normally going to win/lose this pot through agression rather then what happens at showdown.

Now that ive limped, im playing against a random hand, so on the one hand i like my hand a lot, its ahead here almost always, and I'll steal pots here frequently with air, so it makes sense to bet when my hand is almost certainly best (and likely under-represented) What to do on later streets depends on what happens on the flop and what has happened in previous hands.

On the other hand if stacks get into the middle here, im behind a good % of the time, given the fact that live players dont "go broke in unraised pots" without big hands, so at some stage if the pot is growing, I'd be looking to control it.. but theres plenty of time to worry about that if and when it happens. I guess my plan is to maximize my EV and win the most when ahead and (try to) not go broke when behind, but thats standard for most hands.

Good post totalise, I hear what you're saying.

However,


I wouldn't give up the pot because of the ratios. What colours my judgement and leads me to fold rather than raise is the "aggressive" tag I have been given. I always find that when a LAG raises out of the SB in a blind-on-blind situation the BB is loathe to surrender (especially when they can afford to call)....because the rest of the table is looking on with interest. Then we find the size of the pot gathering steam and unnecessarily so.

I can see a lot of chips going into this pot already

N.B. cheers boldie

check call on flop and lead on a blank turn for me

I think I am ahead but don't want to build it until I see a blank on the turn

You're still getting 3:1 on the call preflop though, giving up seems a bit weak to me.

Why not call and fire out on most flops - people seem a lot less suspicious then - especially when their rags have missed.

Although in this case I wouldn't lead at the flop, having a hand that isn't a monster but with considerable showdown value I'd check to the BB with a view to calling a bet and leading the turn if he checks behind. I'd like to give the BB the chance to make a move if he fancies it, and checking would be the best way to do that without the pot getting big and forcing us to make a tough decision.

Tighty - what would be a blank in this situation, or rather what would be a scare card for you?

a blank is any rag 7 or lower

any card making a straight..J, 10, etc I am proceeding more cautiously

I apologise, but there is a major error in the way Floppy described the hand played pre-flop, which changes the arguments. (Yes, I confess, I was the BB, & I must have explained it wrong to him).

I RAISED pre-flop, & the SB called the Raise.

Sorry for the confusion. It's a memory thing.

OK, with that knowledge - my Raise pre-Flop, & the SB's call, take it from there please.

8 doesn't make a straight, does it?

That's still a huge % of the deck to be scared of  ;carlocitrone;

I would say with the raise from the BB pre-flop it's a clear fold for me pre-flop. Howvere..since it's Tikay..he probably has Ace 4 thinking he has pocket Aces. ;)

Fold pre-flop

Exactly.......

You did not raise preflop.

no, tikay did not!

That memory of mine......

1. I find it much harder to stick in random blind steals live than online. Purely because I find myself played back at more when the blinds are still relatively small.

Online the blind has to just click to fold their nothing, lose next to no chips, and within half a second he will have a couple of new cards in front of him. Live, it all seems a little more personal, and stack after stack seems to be won and lost in meaningless blind contests.

I'm tempted to just call.

could floppy please update the original post with exactly what did occur.

its hard for people to make choices or give views if they are being fed different info by different people.

Recap:

With a stack of 6k, you've limped in with Kd 2h, and the big blind who is playing a stack of 9k has checked. (Blinds 100/200)

Flop:
 
Kh Qd 9s

You check. Big blind bets 400. You call.

Turn:

3c

You check. Big blind bets 1000. You call.

River:

6s

You check. Big blind bets 1700. You ?


1. Would you play the flop/turn any differently? If so, how?

2. What are the advantages/disadvantages with this check/call strategy?

3. What sort of hand do you put the big blind on?

THERE WAS NO RAISE PREFLOP!!!

I heard this story at the time and i am pretty sure the slag who told me it said there was no raise pre flop, he also played it perfect.

personally i am of the camp fold it or raise preflop here

make it 600 preflop or fold as on most flops you will have no idea where you are

what sort of flop you want to see against 1 player who has ne2 cards

I'm with Mantis on this one...limping preflop was bad enough. Calling a raise with it ...well I dunno. I don't like it.

this check call strategy doesn't give you any info...you are just hoping that the BB has nothing here. all you do is pick up a bluff. If you had a monster it would be OK but in this case you have top pair no kicker so I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish here. at no stage during this hand do you show any strenght at all and you are essentially just bleeding your chips away against any half decent opponent.

Big blind can have any two cards..most likely a better King possibly even two pair.

i am thinking that the only way you could possibly win the hand here is if you pretend you had a monster all along and checkraise all in on the river...the only question then is..do you think BB can lay a decent hand down to that move?

All edited.

Everyone else, stop confusing each other, and me! :D

For Boldie, and any others who may be confused...

lol...does anyone actually know what happened with this hand????...why not post a new hand and just keep it one where it is clear what the action was?? lol

Floppy's post above is now 100% correct.

On the river, I think you really have to flat call if you have chosen to flat call the turn.

I would not have raised pre-flop, that was piss poor.  :D

3. I think it's very tough to put the big blind on anything (as there was no rasie pre-flop apparently)

I doubt he has a hand a hand such as QJ, T9, QT and so on coz he would have just checked behind. The river bet either has you beat, or it is a stone cold bluff.

I'd prefer to check raise the flop. I don't like betting out because if you're called, you're out of position on two streets with not the biggest of stacks.


I don't like it. You're working off guesswork and ought to find out where you stand earlier on. There's a good chance your opponent has nothing, but it's costing you a bet on every street to find out.

Because of the way the K-2 has played the hand, I think it's impossible to know because he's made no attempts to really try and educate himself about the strength of his opponent's hand. It's all a tad passive for my liking. Although I think there's a decent chance he's bluffing here, I think most of the time you'll be behind to something like two pair.


Having got to the river and played it like you have, I think you have to call and hope. Doesn't make sense to check call the previous streets if you plan to fold at the end, especially with such a raggy card hitting the River.

Does Rookie or anyone else know whether there was a raise pre-flop??

Im not even going to bite.....................


ARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH what the hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am reasonably certain that there was no raise pre-flop now so back to the hand...

If you call the river bet you will have check-called over half your stack with King deuce. Whatever the outcome I am not happy with playing like this under tournament conditions. Do you call the river bet?....well you have to. If you thought you had the best hand flop/turn you have to call. The deuce was very unlikely to have improved our hand on later streets so it was just a question of showing down top pair and hoping it's good. It is a bit of a blind call though because like Boldie says, we have scant information here with which to make a decision.

If I do play this hand I would probably use the 1000 turn money to check-raise the 400 flop bet. At least you will get an idea of where you stand.

The only information we have about our opponent's hand is the BET AMOUNTS.

Flop...bets the pot. Personally I discount a big hand here e.g. straight, set or 2 pair.

Turn...bets about the pot. Still think he's got 1 pair..(or nothing) and wants me to go away

River...about half the pot?

So he's wanting to push me out of the pot on the flop and turn but offers me a far better deal on the river than I got on previous streets. A half price call so to speak...why?

My inclination is one pair flop and turn with the 6 making 2 pair on the river....so something like K-6 or Q-6. This is why the check-call mentality is a dangerous choice in tournament play. Of course it could be that he has nothing and just looses his gumption to pot it on the river...but we wouldn't know because we haven't asked him a decent question throughout the hand.

So he's wanting to push me out of the pot on the flop and turn but offers me a far better deal on the river than I got on previous streets. A half price call so to speak...why?


It was a value bet, & I did not want to lose my customer.......

i was watching the hand, being on the same table


I thought you looked uncomfortable throwing in the last bet. That combined with the reduced size of bet relative to the pot certainly got me thinking about whether it was a true value bet or something that had to look like a value bet to make him pass, if you like


Personally, I liked the idea of check call on flop and lead on turn line from yr opponent

The way he played it, I think has to call the river, eyes closed,

That was my reverse psychology - my patented "I look uncomfortable" bet when really I am extremely comfortable, designed to elicit a call, see?

Well you got your customer, very well played sir!

True - but keep schtum on the outcome until it's revealed please!

You will have to show me a hand now though. I figure...you didn't loose me as a customer with a pot-sized bet on the flop...you also didn't loose me on the turn with a big bet when the 3 hit. There are 4 suits and no draws on the board now but I still call. You must know I have a hand from the flop....and a hand that is strong enough to call pot-sized bets. So this information tells you that a bigger bet may be called. So why go smaller now?

Either way you have to call the river. Nothing has really changed from earlier streets and you have called bigger % bets then, so call and not be surprised either way at all.

For example it wouldn't surprise me if you show 10-J for the flopped nuts and came out betting it strongly. Once you had got your "customer" you couldn't loose. But this is the danger of playing hands like K-2 and check-calling with them.

Best strategy fold pre-flop.

If you do call I would check-raise the flop to get some definitive answers.

On the end you must call and get it spectacularly right or see what a pig's ear you've made of it!!

The reveal is now up here:

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/9548 (http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/9548)

Feel free to post your comments/thoughts here.

I think if he's going to bet that River on a bluff, he needs to bet more.

Absolutely Snoops. The river bet was like a dying man taking his last breath.

Once the turn has been called (signifying a made hand) Tikay must push.....or check and hold his hands up.

Yup, I got mangled well & truly by the boy, no arguments.

I bet the flop & turn, & made a bet on the River which was designed to represent strength, "PLEASE call me". He did........

I was not surprised to be called by top pair, but amazed he could call me with his kicker, having played it so passively, he had to have either a draw, or a big hand. I  assumed!

Live & learn & all that, & fair play to Rookie for outplaying me. I can't make that call, not ever.

I can with a read on the player in question ;)

Well, as I said....

Live & learn & all that, & fair play to Rookie for outplaying me.

Misread by me.