blonde poker forum

I hope Moorman doesn't mind me cross posting this from P5s but it created a lot of debate over there and figured it might over here too.

Full Tilt Poker Game #2479866567: $1K Monday (17684361), Table 13 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:31:31 ET - 2007/05/21

Seat 1: kamodadragon (2,590)

Seat 2: cumicon (3,155), is sitting out

Seat 3: rmedlin2 (2,090)

Seat 4: Rick the Trick (2,875)

Seat 5: DonTmaKeMEDoIT (3,000)

Seat 6: MoormanI (2,520)

Seat 7: Skill Game (4,700)

Seat 8: Liverpool811 (2,855), is sitting out

Seat 9: SirGutShot (6,370)

SirGutShot posts the small blind of 20

kamodadragon posts the big blind of 40

The button is in seat #8

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to MoormanI [Qc Qd]

cumicon folds

rmedlin2 folds

Rick the Trick folds

DonTmaKeMEDoIT raises to 120

MoormanI calls 120

Skill Game raises to 480

Liverpool811 folds

SirGutShot folds

kamodadragon folds

DonTmaKeMEDoIT calls 360

what do i do now? only read is skill game has been pretty agro so far.... most likely holding for him imo is ak.... i fear dontmakemedoit has aa or kk... results to follow.....

Surely you should be re-raising pre?

if dontmakemedoit has KK  or AA  as you suspect , surely he is reraising here rather than play  OOP  vs 2 opponents

you FEAR they have AA or KK? by a 3 bet preflop from mid position and flat call of a raise? are they rockiest most green fish person in the world? i'm assuming they are else you wouldn't be able to make such a read. so yeah. flat call and min-raise him on the flop if he bets into a J high or lower board.

I think you need to trust your read and fold

Re-raising pre-flop gets some quality information about where your hand stands in the scheme of things.

By not raising Moorman misses out on this crucial information and gets caught in a squeeze play situation.

Skill Game could pick up A-J or 10-10 for example and decide to buy the pot. The blinds are still small, neither of his opponent's have shown much strength or commitment to this pot so the situation is right for this kind of move.

Later on when the pots are more juicy and the players are tighter then flat calling here is o.k....if a little risky. But early on when the blinds are small and players have a need to get involved far too readily I think a re-raise is definitely the order of the day.

If another raise comes in after this then our decision becomes easier. but more likely, only the original raiser calls and we go to the flop heads-up and with position.

What to do now? Well I am inclined to push all-in based on the fact that Skill Game could have made this move with a range of hands and the other guy only flat calls. So I would re-squeeze here. To flat call this action is not the best move because if either opponent has AA or KK they get the rest of my chips on a raggy flop anyway. So why give either the opportunity to catch something when you could realistically take the pot risk-free now? If we do get a caller we could often have the best of it and if we do find ourselves up against A-K then the extra value in the pot makes this a welcome gamble.

reraise all in is in order

rotflmfao

is this a $1k buyin
or $1k gtd pot


id go for call if a grand buy in asses the flop

if a grand gtd ALL IN, reg for summit else

 ;D

isee its $1000 buyin
ouch

its actually tougher than i thought
theres a case for allin,call or fold
in preferencial order id go for call, allin then fold

lol @ morman in a 1k gtd pot.

 lol @ mormon playing poker

As this is a 1K buy-in I would be playing above my usual stakes. I'd call here though and spike the Q :)

The problem with pushing now is that it will allow our opponents to play perfectly i.e the worst we will get called with is AK.

I doubt that the first player has AA but he could have KK.  I thnk his range is JJ+ or AK.  Second player TT+ or AK.  I would call and fold on a flop with an Ace or King.  On any other flop hopefully the 2nd player c bets and the first folds and I go AI, if he has AA or KK nh gg.

Why not shove preflop then if you are looking to c/r all in anyway?!? You get AK to fold to your shove anyway.

ur beat beat beat, its a fold.

Still don't like the flat call here. What sort of flop will be good for us?

If we press the queens on a non A or K flop then we get A-K to fold...true, but on a non A or K flop I would much sooner have all the chips in the middle already.

Why wait to see if you get outdrawn by A-K? If A-K wants to catch one of his 6 outs then he should be asked to pay in full pre-flop. With the extra value in the pot Q-Q vs A-K is a good gamble for us.

If the flop comes low and raggy calling pre-flop means we are committed anyway. A-A and K-K still get our money, as does any set or 2 pair that we allowed in here.

So folding or pushing are the only options. By not re-raising pre-flop we don't necessarily have any quality information about Skill Game's hand and so can't say with any confidence that he has us beat. The first player's flat call into a potentially multi-way pot with significant action already leads me to also discount a hand that beats us. Re-squeesing here seems like the best play based on the information we have.

yes and that's a good thing because the A or K could come on the turn or river and that's you properly F'ed and thinking to your self "Why didn't I just flat call and get him off the hand on the flop?"

I can't fold here...Simply don't like it..but a push is the worst possible way to play this hand this early in a big tournament. (in my humble opinion)

I agree that this situation is far from desirable, particularly so early. But the reason we are faced with this tough decision is because we flat-called the original raise. I think re-popping the original raise pre-flop gives everything far more clarity. I also think spending 480 chips to re-raise, define the quality of your hand, and hopefully isolate one opponent with Q-Q, is a better use of tournament chips than flat-calling the 480 chip bet into a multi-way pot.

In this hand when the action gets to Skill Game he bumps it up to 480. This is 4x the original raise when there is only 300 chips in the pot. I consider this to be a bit of an over-bet and he is looking to buy the pot. So I think I am ahead of him.

The second guy's flat-call could signify strength or relative weakness, it's hard to say. I am inclined to take a gamble here and say he's got a pretty hand but not a monster. There are now 1,140 chips in the pot and I can re-raise both of these guys for a further 2,040. I think that there is a realistic chance that both could fold and I take the pot risk-free...I definitely think Skill Game will fold.

The problem I have is that Skill Game having 10-10/J-J and the other guy having a big suited ace fit the action perfectly and if the flop comes 2-5-10 it's game over. In fact, whatever the flop comes it is very unlikely that I am going to improve...so why do I want to see a flop?...and give these guys a chance to catch up!

I may get called by A-K, and he may catch an A or K on the turn....true. But if you offer me the chance to pay 2,040 to play Q-Q Vs A-K for a 5,580 chip pot with no A or K on the flop I would take that gamble in a second. If there is no A or K on the flop A-K goes away...not good really...and I only take a pot that I could realistically have taken pre-flop, but without the risk.

I'd push. You're only worried about Aces and Kings, but there are plenty of weaker hands that will call, especially because you haven't previously represented anything big. Also, there's some dead money in there.