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Title: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: AlexMartin on July 02, 2007, 10:57:13 PM Game #4904336334: Hold'em NL ($1/$2) - 2007/07/02 - 21:02:07 (UK)
Table "Wildcats" Seat 2 is the button. Seat 1: Anderssos ($200 in chips) Seat 2: mysaren ($77 in chips) Seat 3: plump ($98 in chips) Seat 4: krame5 ($150.10 in chips) Seat 5: llcoolgaz ($228.32 in chips) Seat 6: fanvasurt ($188.70 in chips) plump: posts small blind $1 krame5: posts big blind $2 Anderssos sits out ----- HOLE CARDS ----- dealt to plump [Kc Jc] llcoolgaz: folds fanvasurt: folds mysaren: folds plump: calls $1 krame5: raises to $6 plump: calls $4 ----- FLOP ----- [7h Tc 9c] plump: bets $7 Tristar99 joins the table at seat #1 krame5: raises to $18 plump: raises to $62 krame5: raises to $144.10 and is all-in plump: is all-in $30 Returned uncalled bets $52.10 to krame5 ----- TURN ----- [7h Tc 9c][9s] ----- RIVER ----- [7h Tc 9c 9s][6d] ----- SHOW DOWN ----- krame5: shows [Kh Ks] (Two Pairs, Kings and Nines, Ten high) plump: shows [Kc Jc] (A Pair of Nines, King high) krame5 collected $193 from Main pot ----- SUMMARY ----- Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: Dewi_cool on July 02, 2007, 11:04:25 PM Alex I think you know the answer
Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: NoflopsHomer on July 03, 2007, 12:20:42 AM As long as you play sets the same, it's fine.
In a tournament against a bad player who can't fold an overpair you should check/call. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: The_Diamond on July 03, 2007, 04:36:34 AM you played the hand 100 times better than your opponent. How can you be too aggressive if you got your money in as a favourite?
Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: kinboshi on July 03, 2007, 09:42:00 AM you played the hand 100 times better than your opponent. How can you be too aggressive if you got your money in as a favourite? Was about to say - you got your money in when you were favourite to win the hand. Nothing up with that in my book. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: deepreacher on July 03, 2007, 11:36:02 AM even if the stacks were deeper i still try and get it in here.
Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: byronkincaid on July 03, 2007, 11:58:34 AM Quote you played the hand 100 times better than your opponent. please can you explain further, this is a battle of the blinds he's got KK what's wrong with how he played it? I would prob have raised to $8 but apart from that? I'm not a huge fan of limping pre flop in 6 max but apart from that Alex played fine too imo. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: dan on July 03, 2007, 12:53:50 PM I must play my draws too aggressivley aswell then, I do that with a gutshot.
Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: maldini32 on July 03, 2007, 01:14:18 PM Its a double bell buster....and i play it same as you.
Sometimes you just miss :) Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: Moskvich on July 03, 2007, 02:19:48 PM I play it the same too, even though I haven't hit a draw like this since about October.
Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: kinboshi on July 03, 2007, 02:31:53 PM I play it the same too, even though I haven't hit a draw like this since about October. 2005. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: The_Diamond on July 03, 2007, 05:11:13 PM Quote you played the hand 100 times better than your opponent. please can you explain further, this is a battle of the blinds he's got KK what's wrong with how he played it? I would prob have raised to $8 but apart from that? I'm not a huge fan of limping pre flop in 6 max but apart from that Alex played fine too imo. This is a bad flop for Kings and getting it all in there is definitely -EV. I don't like his flop raise at all. More often than not if you raise a weak lead in this situation it will be met be a large 3 bet in which case your options are reduced to fold or shove and if you shove with KK here you're either in a bad race or drawing very thin. Alex played the hand really well because he forced the guy to put his money in on the flop but also gave the guy an opportunity to fold. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: ACE2M on July 03, 2007, 05:12:27 PM I tend to check raise the flop (or get a free card) against reasonable opponents and shove the turn if i hit or not (assuming he called the c/r on the flop), just gives me more chance to win the pot without showdown or win an extra bet on the flop.
3 betting the flop all in with big draws will result in some massive downswings and equally the other way so you need a decent roll and consistency. I just don't like to get all my chips in as a small favourite, I like to keep my variance down. But if your playing it aggresive you have to take it when you miss, after all you were in as favourite. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: The_Diamond on July 03, 2007, 05:18:17 PM I just don't like to get all my chips in as a small favourite, I like to keep my variance down. This is a joke right? You think you keep your variance down by giving up edges? That is actually a great way to INCREASE your variance and become a losing player overall. BTW your edge with Alex's hand is pretty signifficant in the hand above, especially when you play it the way he did, because you create a lot of fold equity. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: ACE2M on July 03, 2007, 08:01:17 PM I just don't like to get all my chips in as a small favourite, I like to keep my variance down. This is a joke right? You think you keep your variance down by giving up edges? That is actually a great way to INCREASE your variance and become a losing player overall. BTW your edge with Alex's hand is pretty signifficant in the hand above, especially when you play it the way he did, because you create a lot of fold equity. we will have to just disagree. I will happily 3 bet all in if thats the way it goes but i definately prefer to make a hand first or scare the life out of them by check raising a little more. depends who your playing really. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: kinboshi on July 03, 2007, 08:14:20 PM Problem with waiting for the turn, is that if you miss, you're no longer favourite to win the hand. So do you want to stick your money in when you're favourite or when you're a dog?
Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: AdamG on July 03, 2007, 08:35:20 PM check raise it on the flop and put it in when ur fave to win!
Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: ACE2M on July 03, 2007, 08:44:16 PM we will have to disagree. tournaments i'm all the way on the flop, i'm just happy to give my ooponent 2 chances to fold the better hand in a cash game.
it works for me. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: The_Diamond on July 04, 2007, 02:12:03 AM we will have to disagree. tournaments i'm all the way on the flop, i'm just happy to give my ooponent 2 chances to fold the better hand in a cash game. it works for me. Seriously, You would push the turn card here? That would be a very easy call for KK. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: kinboshi on July 04, 2007, 08:34:12 AM we will have to disagree. tournaments i'm all the way on the flop, i'm just happy to give my ooponent 2 chances to fold the better hand in a cash game. it works for me. Seriously, You would push the turn card here? That would be a very easy call for KK. It would also be the correct call, as he'd be 2 to 1 favourite to win. Of course, there's more than one way to skin a cat - but I'm always looking to get my chips in when I'm ahead and make my opponent make a mistake in cash games. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: ACE2M on July 04, 2007, 11:29:21 AM I don't want to coin flip for my stack in a cash game. What range do you give him? Does he know your play?
Assuming hes not a moron...The best hand you can put him on for you here is A 10 (discounting a total bluff) and this would offer me the odds i like to get it all in with. Other than that and JJ we are a coin flip or behind. If i have fold equity on the turn then yes, i shove the turn. I think Alex approach is perfect if thats the way he likes to play out his big draws but it is essentially a coin flip for your stack if you consider his range. Of course if you play every hand when you have a small edge the same way then you will win overall but you will have some hard times along the way. Seriously, you keep launching it in on coinflips and i'll wait for 70%ers or at least give the oppo every chance to fold. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: kinboshi on July 04, 2007, 11:36:51 AM I see what you're saying, but I don't want him to fold here if he has KK. I want him to call and make a mistake. I posted a hand similar to this a while back, and listed the odds against different hands, and you're more often than not the favourite on the flop.
But like I said, more than one way to skin a cat. :)up Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: totalise on July 04, 2007, 11:58:42 AM Quote I see what you're saying, but I don't want him to fold here if he has KK. I want him to call and make a mistake. gorrila math you have 55% equity, so if it gets in here.. hero gets back 55% of a $196 pot.. so $107.80, but if villain folds, hero gets the (from the opponent) $18 in on the flop plus the $6 preflop, so $24 net profit on top of a $98 starting stack pre is $122. This isn't exact, but it show that you certainly dont want him to call if he has KK, even if he is the slight underdog, given the money already in the pot. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: Matt85 on July 05, 2007, 10:50:34 AM You potentially have 15 outs on the flop and you're about 55/45 against his range so just get it all in.
Read 2+2 and search for 'sklansky bucks' and be glad you did. Obviously its player/image dependant how you play draws in general but in this situation getting it all in on a non paired board can never be wrong. Pushing lots of small edges = Big edge. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: kinboshi on July 05, 2007, 10:59:26 AM Quote I see what you're saying, but I don't want him to fold here if he has KK. I want him to call and make a mistake. gorrila math you have 55% equity, so if it gets in here.. hero gets back 55% of a $196 pot.. so $107.80, but if villain folds, hero gets the (from the opponent) $18 in on the flop plus the $6 preflop, so $24 net profit on top of a $98 starting stack pre is $122. This isn't exact, but it show that you certainly dont want him to call if he has KK, even if he is the slight underdog, given the money already in the pot. OK that makes sense. So I make more profit if he folds, but I still make a profit (although a smaller one) if he calls? Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: totalise on July 05, 2007, 11:06:11 AM Quote I see what you're saying, but I don't want him to fold here if he has KK. I want him to call and make a mistake. gorrila math you have 55% equity, so if it gets in here.. hero gets back 55% of a $196 pot.. so $107.80, but if villain folds, hero gets the (from the opponent) $18 in on the flop plus the $6 preflop, so $24 net profit on top of a $98 starting stack pre is $122. This isn't exact, but it show that you certainly dont want him to call if he has KK, even if he is the slight underdog, given the money already in the pot. OK that makes sense. So I make more profit if he folds, but I still make a profit (although a smaller one) if he calls? yah Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: Smart Money on July 05, 2007, 08:27:46 PM Recently I've been looking at how I should play draws against certain opponents.
Most poor players give you virtually no fold equity, and so if you're both deep then I think it's often better to play passively until/unless you hit against the calling stations. E.g. You call a pre-flop raise and make a pair + flush draw on flop. You suspect you're up against AA/KK, so basically you're 50/50 to win a showdown. If you know your opponent won't fold, then it makes no sense to commit your chips on the flop. In this situation, it's better to just call down any reasonable size bet and hope to hit trips/2 pair/flush. However, against a decent regular who is capable of a fold, then your best option is to at least raise the flop. In Alex's example, the shortest stack is only 50BB so there's no need to mess around, and he played it perfectly IMO. Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: AlexMartin on July 05, 2007, 11:01:35 PM Recently I've been looking at how I should play draws against certain opponents. Most poor players give you virtually no fold equity, and so if you're both deep then I think it's often better to play passively until/unless you hit against the calling stations. E.g. You call a pre-flop raise and make a pair + flush draw on flop. You suspect you're up against AA/KK, so basically you're 50/50 to win a showdown. If you know your opponent won't fold, then it makes no sense to commit your chips on the flop. In this situation, it's better to just call down any reasonable size bet and hope to hit trips/2 pair/flush. However, against a decent regular who is capable of a fold, then your best option is to at least raise the flop. In Alex's example, the shortest stack is only 50BB so there's no need to mess around, and he played it perfectly IMO. Thats the poker equivalent of Hansen saying i made a great defensive tackle. Happy me :) Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: Smart Money on July 06, 2007, 10:06:51 AM LOL.
Just remember to transfer me the $20 we agreed. ;) Title: Re: Do i play my draws too aggressively? :) Post by: kinboshi on July 06, 2007, 11:05:08 AM Recently I've been looking at how I should play draws against certain opponents. Thats the poker equivalent of Hansen saying i made a great defensive tackle. Happy me :)Most poor players give you virtually no fold equity, and so if you're both deep then I think it's often better to play passively until/unless you hit against the calling stations. E.g. You call a pre-flop raise and make a pair + flush draw on flop. You suspect you're up against AA/KK, so basically you're 50/50 to win a showdown. If you know your opponent won't fold, then it makes no sense to commit your chips on the flop. In this situation, it's better to just call down any reasonable size bet and hope to hit trips/2 pair/flush. However, against a decent regular who is capable of a fold, then your best option is to at least raise the flop. In Alex's example, the shortest stack is only 50BB so there's no need to mess around, and he played it perfectly IMO. 'Tis praise indeed - like the analogy. |