blonde poker forum

In a £75 freezeout there are four tables left

blinds are 200-400

Your hero is chipped up, 20,000 or so and has just moved to the table. hero is in form and capable of outplaying the table with that stack

He has  Tc Td


EP raises to 1,200 with 8,000 back. Hero is unfamiliar with the player.

Flat called in MP with 6,000 back. Hero knows player a little, he's no mug.

Short stack pushes in for 2,900 on the button. Unknown player

Folded to hero

What should hero do here?


Hero and I (also on table) debated the options at length!!

Pushing is certainly an option, as you'd be quite happy winning that pot as it stands.  For one thing it negates the problem of being out of position after the flop.

Question is do you put the EP raiser on a big pair or not?  Surely MP hasn't called with a big pair knowing that there might be other callers after him? 

Without the short-stack pushing for him remaining 2,900 - what would you be looking to do here, or does their shove make no difference to your decision?

The all-in makes a huge difference to the dynamics of the hand.  No all-in allows you the luxury of a flat call and a cheap flop. The all-in forces you to either re-raise putting the early bettors to a decision or simply fold. A flat call will almost certainly be  re-raised. Should you push then you are pricng the EP raiser in and/or the MP caller. The all-in bet could be anything.  If the MP is any sort of player he has flat called in the hope of someone coming over the top so he could shove. Therefore he has a made hand such as QQ and up. If it was a big A he would have re-raised pre-flop. Anyone betting with 1010 in the BB is at best racing (unlikely) or at worst looking for a two outer. You have nothing in the pot, bar the BB, so why bet?

If the MP has flat called with anythinjg less, goodluck to him, but you will get a better spot later on, especially as you are still well stacked.

Let it go

who is logged onto Compo's account?

Someone who knows how to fold?


So hero can't flat call here and try to take a flop for fear of EP pushing?

fold.

with a "no-mug" player raising early and an unknown player calling you really cant know where you are in this hand.

Yes you can reraise but i fear this will only tell you what you already know, that your TT is no good.

If you flat call i very much doubt your early postion raiser will just flat call and is most likely to reraise the 2900 all in.

Your chipped up and stand to lose 8000 chips in this hand, throw it away!

No chance.

But your only really looking to hit 2 cards. If you do call and get to see a flop and it comes 9 high i still think your tens are behind anyway.

Plus this is potentially a 4 way pot, 3 live players with 1 all in player.

Yes you have implied odds i suppose to call the 2900, hope to see a flop, hope to hit and 10 and poentially bust out 3 players but as i have already said, i doubt very much you would gte to see the flop here anyway for 2900.

indeed..you have to fold here.

but seeing as it's a TK tourney hand; "You've got Aces, push!"

The only play that is really out of the question is the flat-call.

If you call here there will only be two outcomes. Either you will go to the flop 4-handed....not good for your 10's, or you will face a pre-flop back-raise...not good for your 10's. Furthermore if you call and hit a seemingly ideal raggy flop you are still behind to a bigger pair anyway. So the time to decide whether you want to commit to this hand is right here and now.

With the chips that you have folding is quite conservative...however it is certainly true that less risky spots will present themselves later on.

When playing tournament poker I often remind myself of one of my two favourite quotes....."Boats are safe when docked in the harbour but this isn't what boats were built for" or "If you want to live you cannot be afraid to die"

Yes there has been a lot of action before it gets to you but grabbing this hand by the balls and coming over the top with your big daddy stack in spite of the action is going to be uber-scary for the rest of the field. Unless someone is holding one of the big pairs you will be going heads-up against the shortie with oodles of dead money in the pot. If you are called by a better hand...you can still win...and if you do loose you still have a competitive 11k....which is more than anyone else in this hand had to begin with.

Pushing and loosing makes me feel a whole lot better than folding and watching a big pot pushed towards an unimproved 9-9. Although people are saying this is scary so avoid it, pushing over the top will be VERY SCARY for the other players and they may well avoid it with say J-J...every time you put chunks of chips in the middle it's scary business but you can't keep opting out of these situations. If it went raise, re-raise, all-in, I would fold then...but not here. There are only 4 poker hands ahead of you right now...you may get one of those hands to fold...you can't get knocked out...and you may win the pot anyway...PUSH!

Why not fold this hand, get to see what the early position raiser was rasing with as he is bound to call the 2900 and possibly even get to see what the MP caller has if he decides to call the 2900 and it gets checked down. You will have got to narraw down their range of hands which is much more valuable in the long term and done it without losing chips.

Knowlege is power!

This is utterly fascinating, more so as I know how it played, & what I done. I'll say no more for now.

Except, as Boldie says, who's stolen Compo's Password? My word, his game has come on leaps & bounds in a short time. He played just about 24/7 in Vegas - he worked, or played (2 hours sleep seems enough for him) & he won over $13,000. I tell ya, he's got some amazing game. Weird game too, he's like something between Thewy & Roland. I've played a fair bit of cash with him during our Poker Week trips, and his game has improved out of all recognition. You do NOT want him on your table, trust me. Shocking dress sense, though. Another similarity between him, Thewy & Roland.

This the same compo that was drunk as a skunk at Luton on Wednesday? LOL, that was funny.

Whilst playing last night I was faced with almost an identical situation. After similar action I looked down in the bb to see 10-10 and considered what to do. Every poker instinct I have was screaming at me to push.....but I have been running quite bad recently and this tends to tighten you up a bit. I feared bigger hands (the action suggested this was realistic) and I had plenty enough chips to fold and wait for a better spot.....so I passed.

The two players who had then proceeded to go all-in both showed A-K....and even before the third 10 hit the flop I was absolutely gutted with my fold. I felt tight and weak. And this is not how I want to be feeling at a poker table. If I had have pushed first I would have been called by two weaker hands and won a massive pot. Watching that pot being split between two Ace highs whilst my set of 10s lay quietly in the muck made me feel wretched. So much so that I had to go outside to give myself a good talking to (actually to have a cigarette) which is something I almost never do.

So what was this better situation I was waiting for?? I didn't pick up another playable hand over the next hour and a half. The poker gods always have a habit of doing this to me when I turn my nose up at a solid gamble. They think if I am not prepared to play poker then I deserve to just sit there and not play poker.

So what was this better situation?? Oh yes...how ironic...after my stack dwindled I pushed with 10-10 only to be called by one of the A-K guys I should have dispatched some hours ago with his unimpressive A-9. His rivered (naturally) Ace sent a bitter Mantis packing.

This will not happen again!

In this situation you have plenty enough chips to push and loose (if this actually happens at all) but folding a winning hand because you are scared you might be beat is the worst feeling in poker. Those "better opportunities may never actually present themselves.

This has the feeling of teeing me up for a caning next time we play!! Kind words tho.


Deffo not.

Table moves mid comp can be scary things


tikay had just moved to a new table here, I think I was probably the only player he had played regularly and I play so few hands I don't count.


armed with the info I had from playing the table for two hours, he would I am sure have played it completely differently

exactly with no info on the early raiser and MP caller how can you possibly know where you are. You maybe ahead, you maybe a 20% dog, who knows!

 i would have grabbed all my chips and looked at you tighty , waited for the nod then shipped them in.

 nah , i think if i was Tony in this spot i'd pass , you have no clue where you are in the hand , you have no idea if you make a move , how it will turn out , tbh , you dont neeed to jeopardise your big stack either in this position with 10's , i pass here.

 but i have a feelig utg had Ace Rag suited , MP had KQ and the short stack pushed with 66 and you were raging. lol

No, wrong Compo. Boy of boy, what a pain the butt HE was! He rung up someone (whilst in a hand) & said "hey Bud, I've won so much money at poker this week I can't fit it all in my wallet". He could win the WSOP & stick it all the dosh in his gob though, & still have room to place his foot in, too.

hmmm this sounds like allin call call.  TT vs monster, bigger monster.  Ten on board - ship it!

Pushing = Total luck as to the outcome. Fold and play hands where you have some control.

There isn't that much chance Shorty has a small pair either, it's such a bad push with the likes of 66.

Doesn't pushing put you in control?

I think both folding and pushing have their merits here.  With the limited information we have, I think I'd lean towards the push...possibly.

A few more thoughts about this hand....

As ever, this is all about the specifics of the situation and the table dynamics would call for me to push in this instance.

When you arrive at the table you find yourself in a healthy chip position in comparison to the main protagonists in this hand. While it is true you have little information about the playing style of your opponents they have little information about your own playing style...so all parties in this deal are a little in the dark in this area. To err on the side of caution because of this is reasonable but a bit undesirable for me....let them choose the cautious route if they want!

Even if you were at the table for a little longer...only a range of hands can be speculated upon. Hand range is only one facet of information you use when making a decision and at best this can only be guessed at. In tournament play when tables are broken-up often...pinning the foundation of your decisions on this one pin-prick of information can often be dependant on time scales that just don't happen. In this example Tightend has been playing at the table for over 2 hours and has the luxury of benefitting from good quality information in the area of playing styles...that is desirable...but that is a different tournament journey...can we afford to wait for 2 hours to make a more informed judgement with just 4 tables left? Retreating from a potential winning situation because this one piece of the puzzle is not in place is quite conservative I think.

Anyway back to the dynamics. If I had less chips I fold. If my opponents had more chips I fold. If one or both opponents went all-in before it reached me I fold (it's horrible to decimate a big stack by calling all-ins)...but in this instance I get to use my big stack aggressively (that's what it's for) and there is absolutely nothing to suggest I don't have the best hand right now. The crux of the matter is that my opponents can dent me IF they do decide to take me on but they can't cripple me. So with the chips I have I am much more inclined to want to get involved aggressively than to retreat passively.

Putting it another way what would you do if you look down to find Q-Q? The bigger pairs still have you mullered! In fact there is a good case to fold Kings here because Aces still own you!...but isn't this the case every time you push a hand pre-flop without the bullets? You don't have the nuts right now so you could be behind. At what point are you going to draw a line in the sand? I push kings and queens here so by that rationale it's very difficult to find a good enough reason to fold 10s.

If I win a tournament and walk out of the casino with a couple of grand me and the mrs will be eating in a classy restaurant, not getting a takeaway...why?...because we can! This situation is no different...you can afford a bit of luxury so it's time to splash out a bit. And putting your chips in first, as ever, gives you those all important two chances to win. The beauty of pre-flop play is that whatever cards are turned over you wont be drawing dead, and that's IF the other players have the hands or the will to tangle with you.

This brings me on to another important point. As students of the game we become a little obsessed with turning over in front (I am massively guilty of this syndrome). While it is certainly true that it gives you the best chance to win a pot there are absolutely no guarantees. Turning over the best hand is a +EV play in the long run...true...but as ever a tournament is not a long run deal, it is a flurry of activity over the course of a few hours...then it ends and the universe resets itself. What works long term is insignificant in comparison to what does the job on any particular day. I haven't won a tournament in a couple of weeks now and yet EVERY time I have pushed I have had the best hand but still lost. It becomes a little tiresome to constantly remind yourself that you win with that play in the long run...you are out...end of. So theoretically I may want my opponent to call with his dominated ace but in reality I don't want the call...because his call signalled the end of my tournament!

The other thing is that a +EV tournament play is always going to be a negative emotional play. Why? Well because when your A-K stands up against your opponents A-Q you feel nothing....it's what was supposed to happen. But on those occasions when a queen hits the board it's a killer. So turning over in front can only make you feel bad when you loose.

Because of my fanatical approach to turning over ahead I very rarely experience the fist-pumping joy of coming from behind. A good suck-out for a big pot is one of the best gambling experiences there is and like I said you get weary watching your opponents punch the air as you reach for your coat.

Tournament play is never going to be an exact science. Sometimes you have to dance with the devil to get to where you want to be. Anyone who wins an event is going to have to confess that they got lucky (probably more than once) on their way to victory. So while it's true you have scant information about your opponents look at the things that are working in your favour. You have a solid hand. You are pushing first and asking a big question. It's pre-flop so you have chances to win if called no matter what. You are using your chip advantage to take the bull by the horns and win the event. You have plenty enough chips to take this gamble on and loose. And most importantly, if you do find yourself behind, you set yourself up for a +emotional experience should you suck out. You can afford the classy restaurant right now so it's time to splash out.

If things go wrong you find yourself still very much alive and it's time to tighten your belt a bit. Back to take-aways for a while. At the very least when you pick up A-A and cutely over-bet it you find yourself quickly called by a mug with 10s...who has quality information about your pushing range!

excellent post mantis

Control for me consitutes having more of an idea of what our opponents have and acting accordingly, this is just blind hope the shorty/initial raiser doesn't have a biggy. When you have plenty of opportunity to play poker I don't like it.

My thoughts exactly

But having read Mantis' post I retract all previous statements :). Or maybe not...It's a toughie.

I do find though that if you have absolute faith in your flop play then it is better to avoid situations like this. Lol at my confused rant. OK I FOLD NO FURTHER COMMENTS.

Well a word about blind luck and control. EVERY time you put a chunk of chips across the line pre-flop you are committing them to the subtleties of luck. If someone raises and you re-raise with A-K you are hoping you don't run into Aces etc...and I agree with Kinboshi in so much as pushing uses an advantage you have in chip power to try and control the situation. If one of the ep players decide to call with queens they are now committing to the very same blind luck that YOU don't have a bigger hand. This is the nature of the game we play.

The comments about post-flop play become hugely relevant when we find ourselves in a deep-stack situation. With us and our opponents nursing in excess of 50x bb each post-flop guile becomes the skill-set you rely on to progress. The dynamics of this situation are much different here though. The other players have a few thousand each and so have scant enough to be pressured post-flop no matter how cunning your play. Because our opponents rest in this amber/red bracket of stack size pre-flop play becomes far more significant. The...I can knock you out and am prepared to put you to the test BEFORE we see the board is a route I want to take often here. It would be nice to see the flop before committing but this is far more pertanent for shorter stacks...I don't have to give them that luxury...so I wont. And yes there are 4 bigger pre-flop hands out there but there is an awful lot more hands my 10s beat right now!

So the dynamics of this unique situation suggests it's time to get the hob-nailed boots on and give them a good pre-flop kicking if you ask me.

Awesome

Great stuff Mantis thanks

I will leave the great man himself to describe what happened next......

I thought it was an easy fold..untill I read` Mantis' posts...made me think twice about how to play this sort of thing in the future....

You're talking about my post, aren't you?

;D

I had similar thoughts to Boldies its an easy fold in the first instance but when you take time to think the situation through like Mantis has you can make a strong case for pushing also.  Even if we push and we are wrong we still have a healthy stack that can allow us an opportunity to play.  Reading between the lines I think TK has chosen to fold and has found himself up against two aces and a small  PP, and sods law dictates he hits a 10 on the turn.

Having thought it through I am going to fold.  I think I might have been ahead on the flop and the turn with my 10's but some cruel outdraw on the river would have done me thats the luck I carry at the moment.

So Tighty, you gonna tell us what our Hero did? (I remember my action clearly, & I remember the Board, & I remember ONE Opponents hand, but I can't recall the other guy's hand).

Once you describe what happened, I will explain why I did what I did. That I CAN remember, because it's a basic facet of my Play in Tourneys. I'll also explain an error I made here, in this play, &, identically, in a subsequent Tourney.

Hero folded, concerned about the Original raiser's subsequent action if he flat called with his pair of tens, and wary of being dominated if he pushed


Original raiser flat called the all in, as did the MP cold caller

Three of them saw this flop

 Kd Kc x, blank on the turn and  Td on the river (irrelevant once tikay has passed, results orientated to focus on it really!)

It was checked down all the way


Short stack pusher revealed  Ac Kh to triple up

the MP caller of the original raise showed  9d 9c

Original raiser mucked, hand unknown


I with the info I had knew Orig raiser was a poor loose player, happy to open raise from anywhere with a wider variety of hands and then fold to pressure, but of course tikay did not know this

Without tighty's info im still folding here EVERY time!

Unless you know the players, pushing with 10's after an early raise and call and a shortstack all in HAS to be -EV surely.

There is a basket of evidence to weigh up in these situations, & they vary in importance, but they all count to a greater or lesser degree. They include.....

1) First Raiser. Whilst I discard all this "be wary of EP Raiser, he could have a monster" nonsense (generally, few folks play THAT well), the fact is, the Raiser I am always most wary of is the one who has acted first, but for a different reason. I have info on 2nd, 3rd & 4th to act - because THEIR actions take into Account Original Raiser. I have no info on the original Raiser, his R could mean A-T, 6-6, KK or AA. We just don't have much to go on, do we? We have MUCH more info on those who acted behind.

2) I never knew the player, so no clues there, either.

3) I was in good shape, & this was a huge risk, based on very little info. I think I can play my way to this Final.

4) I generally shy away from big boom crash bang multi-way hands. Many successful players do the opposite, & accumulate mountains of chips. Good Luck to them, but it ain't for me.

5) In an ideal world, we'd never see a flop, we'd win them all pre flop. We can't lose if we don't see a flop. It ain't an ideal world, but even so, I try to take my Pots quick & early, & if everyone is intent on colliding head-in in Pots time after time, fine, I let them, & am happy to sit back & watch. I want small Pots, lots of them, & without flops if poss.

6) I was facing two players, neither of whom I knew. I reasoned I could well be facing EITHER an overpair, an Overpair & two overs, or two "two overs". I'm thin against that lot if I'm right. And do I need to take this gamble, here & now? I thoight I could find a better spot.

7) My strength is my weakness. I avoid confrontation as much as I can, I dodge bullets, I prefer small uncontested pots than big boomers. I can accumulate chips safer that way, little "orphan" pots (nobody wants them, I'll take 'em with position), so if I meet strong resistance, I think very carefully, because I think I can get there by an easier route if I take my time. The problem with this is that I go deeper, & make more Finals, than most players. But I get there low-chipped invariably, & my Database is littered with minor cashes, because I don't have enough chips to "play" when the Blinds get big. I have altered the balance a bit this year, I'm less conservative, and as a result, I have made less Finals, but I've finished much higher. My last 5 fessie Cashes have been 1st, 5th, 3rd 2nd, 1st, & I won three small Events in Vegas. Am I better off though? I'm not sure. I don't set out to win Tourneys, I set out to win enough cash to continue playing Tourneys. (OK, OK, fire away!). There are plenty of Multi-Winners on the Circuit right now who have to borrow the Entry Fee to their Tournaments. I don't borrow to play, it's my money, & I guard it with my life. It's a balance thing.

My comments refer to my Tourney play, I play Cash totally different, almost the very opposite.

Now, the hand. With hindsight, I think I shoulda called to see the Flop. As it happens, I'd have probably had to let go, (which is not relevant in the decision process Pre) but of course, the Ten Rivered.

At Walsall, in th £300, I made the same mistake, of saying to myself, "it's PASS or RAISE", when in fact I should have Called. (With JJ). The flop came A-Q -x, & that's then an easy Pass. Instead, I gambled my whole Tourney on either getting him to Pass (his AQ as it happened, which he called my massive RR Pre with) or taking a coin-flip. I don't WANT coin-flips! I've been indoctrinated by the conventional "Raise or Pass, don't Call" thinking, & I now realise that's sometimes wrong.

Ok, well the result of this particular hand has been revealed and I am under no illusions that it could very well have swung either way. I know that the way I approached this hand would certainly be categorized as high risk.

I am a tight aggressive player and so like Tikay don't advocate wanging huge chunks of chips about on a regular basis. This will more often than not lead to disaster. In this hand I am not particularly happy about pushing all-in with the 10's...I would prefer not to...but feel compelled to. I do believe in the adage that to win a big pot you must commit a lot of chips though and I'm not adverse to winning a big pot or two.

I have two basic tournament principles that compel me to play the hand this way

Firstly, I want to win. But this is not a bolshy I want to win...to show I'm the best or anything like that...I just think that this is a pure way to play the game and it makes decisions easier for me. Whatever the result I am always satisfied with my attempts to do my best to play the game as well as I can. In order to win...the game requires me to accumulate all the chips in play...so I never have feelings of being satisfied with my current chip count. If I don't have them all I still have work to do. So I tend to approach every situation without worries of losing what I have....because what I have isn't enough.

Secondly, and most impotantly, I have one fear playing poker, and that is missing the opportunities that present themselves to me. To miss an opportunity is to not play the game as well as I could. I may not get an opportunity in 3 hours and will sit there waiting patiently for it, but at other times I may get a flurry of opportunities all at once. I feel that it is my job to recognise those opportunities and take advantage of them no matter how tough they may be. So my approach will constantly change dependant upon each unique situation. If the game requires me to risk 1k I will do it and if the game requires me to risk everything I will do it. Often I hear myself say "I have to call" when faced with a big decision.

The thing that strikes me most about poker is that people worry. This is why bubble situations are so profitable for aggressive players. I like to exploit this worry. So while many will worry what hand the other players might hold in this example I just do what I think is right. When you get a big stack you can't be knocked out so you are free from the shackles of worry and so I don't think fretting about what could be out there is a productive thought process. I illustrated many scenarios where I would fold the 10s but all things considered my instincts compel me to push here. Like I said I feel a whole lot worse folding a winning hand and missing an opportunity than loosing a pot. I have often missed a big opportunity because I have talked myself out of it only to dribble out to a dissappointing finish a few hours later...and this isn't a conclusion I enjoy much.

This is a fascinating hand and a truly wonderful thread.

I have now seen what happened before replying but my thinking was I push all in in that spot. After reading the thoughts and looking at the pro's and cons I think Tikay made a great point at the end, what is wrong with flat calling?

If you move all in you get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he calls.

If you flat call you prob get to find out if your oppo is super strong coz he re raises.

So why not call and get the info cheaper and at a less harmful price?

Passing feels weak but is it given the intricacies of the potential re raisers behind you?


I really think this is a wonderful hand as I don't think there is a horrid way to play it and I'm sure given this spot numerous times I might raise/call or pass.


One question I did mull over is this.....would I play this differently online against a comp I had travelled hundreds of miles to play in and I think I would deffo move in online but probably not in the live game.

food for thought

GREAT point Phil.

Online, I push for sure, there's another comp a-waiting if I bust out.

But Luton is around 2 hours drive each-way, & so I play much more conservatively.

How daft is that? It's true though.

 ;scarymoment;

Of course, if I'd gone the Mantis Route & pushed, I'd have collected a monster pot.

I can't actually recall if I even finalled or not.

Thats exactly what I was thinking, and Im worried that that shouldnt be the case.

It should not be the case, but it is. (With me). I need to get it out of my fat head somehow I guuess. It's why I so rarely bust early, too. I think, "ooh, I've driven al this way, I'm having a ball, great table banter, I don't wanna risk busting yet". Daft, I know. Then, when I end up low-chipped, it's push with anything time. Fascinating, this game's twists & turns.

yes, thats it in a nutshell.

Sigh, i know ill take flak for this and tbh i dont g.a.f but some of the advice on this thread is plain poor. Its a tough decision, but its a definite fold.

I've loved the thread, & it just shows how opinions on a seemingly straightforward hand can vary so.

If the exact same situation cropped up again today, I know for sure what I'd do.

Call. Or maybe Pass. (As I did).

But I can see the equally valid arguments for pushing, too. I think the way different people play identical hands is more than just poker strategy, it reflects the way they are in life. And I suppose that's why I'm rarely seen with a big stack in tourneys.

Thank you for all the comments, every Post was worth the read.

This has to be right up there in the best ever PHA thread list for me. It completely made me rethink my strategy when holding something like tens here. I'm not saying I'll be pushing everytime I find myself in this spot but I'll definetly consider it as an option before (probably) folding :)

you finalled, outdrawing me with 5 left and then doing a 3 way chop!!

shortly after the hand tikay and I were chatting and I said he should put it in PHA.......well he forgot but I thought it was an interesting one!

Nice thread!

The fascinating thing for me about this thoroughly enjoyable thread is that one of my posts illustrated how when faced with an almost identical situation in an actual live tournament....I folded. My instincts compelled me to push but I reasoned myself out of it with a lot of very valid what ifs...this is the heart of the matter for me and is the reason I post on blonde.

I am an instinct/feel player and just want to refine those instincts and reason them out logically and in hindsight. T J Cloutier said that your first instincts are usually right and I kinda like that observation. Don't get me wrong though...I also process a whole host of information when making decisions...but this information concerns the specifics of the situation...and is information I consider healthy.

Like I said people worry....and I don't like it when I talk myself out of what I think is right because worry is infecting my decision making process. Stuff like not wanting to go out because I am enjoying myself and the journey home etc is how almost everyone thinks because we love the game and don't want the experience to end. But I am trying to hone my thoughts and trying to train myself to think only healthy things that make decisions purer. To reason out why I should follow my instincts rather than reasoning out why I should avoid them. This I think is poles apart from recklessness and will lead to me being satisfied with each decision...whether the result goes in my favour or not. That's just what I particularly want to achieve whether it be a good thing or a bad thing.


Considering you opt to fold Alex I imagine this is comment about my posts. Just for the record let me reiterate that it is not my intention to advise anyone...other than myself. Like I said it is my hope that I can quantify my instincts by putting things down on paper and gravitate more towards this aspect of the game....because this is what I want to achieve...rightly or wrongly. There is far too much of who's right and who's wrong and who's got the biggest balls in poker. This concerns me not because proving who's right would be a nigh on impossible task. Poker is a personal game.

Some fellow members have commented that they have taken something away from this thread and that isn't particularly a bad thing. I have certainly taken something away from it...particularly reading the in-depth words from someone of Tikay's experience. Even if that something is just to educate me about the mindset of other players. If you just say that's wrong and don't explain why nobody gets the opportunity to take anything away.

If I was going to advise one thing about this hand though I would say that the flat call in the bb is really not a road to go down. You are oop and have a weapon. To not use that weapon and sit in a halfway house of decision making is noncommittal...with live players still to act behind you. You would neither get the mathematical odds to make the call and if a 10 doesn't flop you will rely on the charity of the shorter stacks to check it to the river AND you are still behind to the bigger pairs that prevented you pushing in the first place as well as smaller trips you just let in cheaply...this is a position I would not relish and one I feel is completely unnecessary....you never know a 10 might appear on the river.

I don't mind the push or the fold (think I'd be pushing here though), but I don't understand the idea of calling here.

Those who think the call is the right play, what are you hoping for on the flop (other than two more tens ;D), and how are you going to react to the inevitable bet that comes on the flop?

The idea of calling here makes me nauseous.

Im definitely NOT criticising the thought processes that you have gone through. Its obvious you are a smart player with good analytical skills. I just think that in this particular situation the risk/reward relationship is not good enough. Wasn't knocking you as an individual m8, never would single out anyone, but i disagree so strongly with a push that i had to post.

OK I advocated a call, as I knew UTG raisers range was wide and his modus operandi was not to CB if missed


with tikay's info the call was to be made on the basis that a) if UTG re-raises you can let go, b) if not then it could be checked down or you let go if ncessary

I accept that against most opponents this is pretty unlikely

Ok I see the philosophy but...

1. Tikay made a good point about the better quality information he gets from the 2nd, 3rd and 4th players to act after the initial raiser. Imagine how flat calling here fits into that equation. YOU are now giving information of stunningly transparant quality to the very same initial raiser. And armed with the information that you have a hand you are happy to multi-way with YOU hand him the very information he needs to take the initiative and move in with say A-K. I feel that there is absolutely no need to furnish one of your shorter-stacked underlings the luxury of this free information or indeed the opportunity to close you out with his shorter stack and inferior hand.

2. If you call and the ep raiser pushes you fold having literally thrown 2k of your chips away. Although this is a smaller amount than pushing and committing 9k I think it is actually a more reckless way to spend your money. We are still talking about 10% of your stack that you invest and you put it in hoping and without control. When you are sitting on the big stack you have the ability to control every hand you play so why would you hand the control and the intiative to someone else?

3. If you call a 10 probably wont come...but over-cards probably will. You could still be check-folding the best hand if one of your opponents pushes a draw here. Dumb play I know but it happens all the time.

4. If your opponents do ALLOW YOU to check it down....what happens if a 9 hits the river instead of the 10. You have now allowed the guy holding 9's a free and easy suck-out. This is horrible. Trying to save money has cost you money! Again there is absolutely no need to permit this to happen. You have the chips to control....so why just passively allow people to beat you?

5. If you push the guy with 9's may decide to take a stand and make a value call thinking that you are trying to bully. If this happens you have forced your opponent into making a mistake and charged him in full to chase you down with the worse hand. After the flop any action from you will probably spell the retreat of inferior hands such as 9's and so once again trying to save money will cost you money.

6. And finally if one of the bigger stacks is actually holding A-K you will be pushed out of a pot you would have ultimately gone on to win....costing you money.

I think this is compelling evidence to avoid such passive play. The big stack gives you a weapon to control situations so that tool should be used. If you make a couple more of these passive plays and drop to say 12k you have lost the chance to use this powerful weapon without really using it at all.

I disagree with you being able to control the play by pushing with your big stack.

If i was the EP raiser and held JJ i would see your big stack raise as a sign of weakness and it would make my call with the knaves a heck of a lot easier. I know this seems out of context but in one of your earlier posts mantis you suggested by pushing with the 10 10 here you are putting pressure on the EP raiser who may even have to fold JJ/QQ as you have put them to the test but honestly i think the raise all in with 10's is overall a weak move and is not going to force anyone with even JJ to fold.
Im not trying to be awkward but as your opinion is so different (in fact the opposite) to mine then im very interested in you analytivcal thought process here.

Not at all I appreciate the comeback. But like I have always maintained many big tournament plays are marginal and hang on a knife-edge. I posted that I make the exact same play with queens so couldn't justify folding the 10's. With queens I am still behind to kings and aces IF that is what the ep raiser holds (more often than not this wont be the case). So by your rational you will then commit with jacks against my queens and are in big trouble. That's scenario 1.

We don't know for sure what the ep raiser held but the fact he didn't shove after the shorties all-in suggests jacks are unlikely.

Scenario 2 and again following the same train of thought. The original raiser folds after I push (there is nothing to suggest he has a monster)...then the 2nd player who ACTUALLY has 9's would see my big stack raise as a sign of weakness and this would make his decision a heck of a lot easier...so makes a value call and finds himself dominated.

Scenario 3 is that the original raiser calls my all-in with jacks and looses to my rivered 10.

Scenario 4 is that I make a complete balls-up here and loose the pot

If you only flat-call the shorties all-in...the jacks push...you fold and waste the 2k by allowing jacks man to control the situation. That's why I find calling a non-starter. This thread has been so interesting because the situation is so very very marginal and folding is a perfectly reasonable play to make. The action I see before it reaches me leads me to believe I may very well have the best hand. That said I want to put the decision to the field....I'm seeing all 5 cards for 9k...I can afford to take the chance I'm not beat...can you? Occasionally jacks call my tens, sometimes jacks call my queens and sometimes nines call my tens. It is a knife edge play indeed but the control comes from my ability to be able to do this without the fear of busting out...that is a luxury the others don't have.   

You could make the same move with QQ or KK.  JJ has a hell of a decision to make calling for his tournament life here.

(edit:  I need to read and type more quickly)

Thats how I saw the hand.

That's incorrect Richard. I had K-Q, you had the temerity to move with A-7. I called knowing I was ahead. My hand held up. ;)

Seriously, thanks for Posting this thread Rich, it's a great read.

I've thought again about the optimum play for me in this hand - I now believe my Pre-Flop release of TT was correct. I tried to cash by dodging bullets & un-necessary confrontation, & even though I would have won this hand if I pushed, I still, I'm reminded, chopped the comp. So mission accomplished.

But what's right for me is not necessarily right for other players, we all employ different routes to success. Or failure. I think 6 or 7 players out of 10 push with the TT. And they'd have taken the hand, of course.

I'm so proud to be part of blonde some days - this thread demonstrates why.

Agreed, there is a lot of waffle with little actual justification, this is where flushy rules "instafold"

Posted by: ifm


hmmm....

When I was at school Thursday afternoons brought a double dose of History with Mr. Hall...a real history fanatic. He was a good guy but quite a wacky individual. For instance, he would always wear two watches, one on each wrist. Whenever we would ask why he did this he would give the same reply...."To tell the time!"

He only once gave a different answer..."Why do you wear two watches Mr. Hall?"

"In case one stops!" he exclaimed...a fair enough answer.
 
One of my quick-witted classmates responded with "What if they both stop Mr. Hall"...to which he immediately replied..."That reminds me, I must get a third!"

Mr Hall was an amicable, easygoing individual and was certainly smarter than the average bear. He was psychologically astute and had an answer for everything. One Thursday afternoon we had been instructed to turn to pg. 56 of our history textbooks and indulge ourselves in the delights of The 100 Years War. During this so called "quiet time" one of the other pupils had the temerity to lob a rubber from the back of the class....it neatly dinked off Mr. Hall's bowed head. The usually placid Mr. Hall went absolutely berserk, bits of chalk went pinging off desks and the stack of exercise books on his table came fluttering down all about. Everyone kept there heads down trying to look too engrossed in the Holy Roman Empire to notice...but in reality we were just staring blankly at the pages waiting for the storm to pass.

Let me say that I attended a rather strict Grammer School...not a modern day inner-city comp where you may find some 6ft 14 year-old squaring-up to his dishevelled looking teacher before demanding "What yer goin do about it sir!!" At this school the merest hint of insubordination would lead to a lengthy stint outside the headmasters office waiting to be "seen". This was not a place you would want to find yourself. You would often stand for an inordinate length of time (perhaps 2 hours or more) as other pupils went by licking their fingers and touching their faces to sizzling noises. I am quite sure the lengthy wait was part of your rehabilitation package and it was somewhat of a relief to eventually get in to see Mr. Harvey (who was actually the devil himself). The generally accepted tactic in his office was don't speak...nod a lot...look like you're going to cry...mumble "sorry sir" and make a quick exit.

Anyway I'm waffling lol...so back to Mr. Hall.

Following this near heart-stopping one man riot do you think anyone lobbed a rubber in his class again? No sir, not on your nelly. For the rest of the year history class was a silent and cultured hotbed of academia. We had all seen what Mr. Hall was capable of and we certainly didn't want a repeat performance. He never lost his temper again...I like to think and am quite sure he knew what he was doing.

So how does this all relate to Tikay's tournament hand?

Well I am firmly in Tikay's camp of wanting to play low risk poker. Every time you risk chips you could loose them and so I also want to avoid confrontation whenever possible. And a number of fellow members have talked about the risk/reward ratio of pushing all-in with the pair of tens.

In pushing with the 10s I am hoping to avoid confrontation not encourage it. With a short-stack all-in many players have a tendency to let their hand go. They do this because they know they will be seeing your cards and this I find often tips the balance. Flat-calling can only set me up for confrontation so I use my big stack to avoid it.

Most importantly though is the fact that yes you are taking a risk but the reward is not just the pot on offer in this hand. Thinking that is a mistake. By moving with the big stack here I offer the other players a glimpse of the medicine they can expect to taste if they choose to tangle with me in future pots. The all-in may be scary for us but it looks damn impressive to the other players. After winning this hand I will have oodles of pre-flop credit with which to take pots down uncontested. Tikay may be able to achieve this with his stature and image alone but I feel the need to put the idea into my opponents mind that you tangle with me I don't back down. And this idea will dwell in their heads for a long time I find.

If someone does play back at me the information I get is much clearer. I am probably up against a monster so bail-out.

Using Mr. Hall's psychology of control can be a real winner. A rare burst of dominance can really pacify the table for you. Taking pots down becomes much easier...I see reluctant folds all the time after this move has been performed and your passage to the final is often more free from confrontation than it could have been.

This is why I say use the big stack while you have it. Not often, but just enough so the other players have doubt. When you put doubt in their minds it is THEY who opt to avoid confrontation WITH YOU not visa versa and this can only serve to maintain your dominance.

High risk indeed but just wanted to say that the rewards are not just the chips here and now. Sometimes the push can be a means to avoiding confrontation, paticularly future confrontation, not to indulge in it.

To be fair, I'm not used to playing with a big stack, so although I agree it's a much different game, I need more practice at it........I take your point about using the deep-stack though.

I've really enjoyed the "waffle" to be honest, & so have many. It's not so much knowing the corect decision, it's why that matters, & it's fascinating to see so many different theories bandied about. We had opinions in favour of Passing, Calling & Pushing, all of them explained. If the situation arises again, I'll have a deeper insight, & so will others.

Great stuff, thanks to all who contributed.