blonde poker forum

Hi all,

Once again any and all comments are actively encouraged:

5/10NL, you are 6 handed at a 10 handed table.

You have been at the table for about 2 hours, and the villain in the hand has been playing with you on another table, but only came to this table about 5 minutes ago.


Reads

Villain

Has been donking around with a lot of min-raises preflop, very rarely if ever making a raise of more then 1*BB.. The times he has raised it up more then 1*BB, he has shown up with a fairly wide range of hands, but predominantly he has shown down strong preflop starting hands like JJ/QQ/KK/AA and AK. His aggression factor is low on the flop/turn but increases remarkably on the river, which is quite unusual for cash game players. His hand reading skills seem to be quite adept.

His stack; $908.75

Hero

Playing very snug at this table this session, there was a maniac earlier on the table that was throwing a party, so you toned back on the aggression and went into a trappier mode. The maniac has left, so you are beginning to wind it up again. On the other table you were playing with hero, you are stuck 2 and a half buyins through pretty reckless plays and trying to run over the table and failing miserably.

Your stack : $2,570


The hand:

Villain min raises from UTG+1, and you have  Ahrt Jh on the button

1) What’s your play here given reads?  If you have been snug, is AJ the kind of hand you want to see when you are starting to open up your 3-betting requirements? If not, what kinda hands would you prefer.


Action, you make it $60, and villain calls.


Flop comes down 6c Jc 4h


Villain checks, and action is on you.

2) What are the pros and cons of checking behind on flops like this? How does this change if your opponent is very aggressive?


3) What is your move here? If you bet, how much? And what will you do if villain raises? And why.


next installment on Wednesday.

I really don't like AJ at all 6 handed.  I find the main problem is that I am never quite sure what my opponent thinks about my c-bet on a jack high flop.  They seem to believe a c-bet on an A K Q high flop a lot more and if called on these flops I find it easier to draw conclusions.

Raising pre-flop is ok as I would find it an easy fold to a reraise and taking down the pot is greatly improving my PT stats for AJ.....

As far as my opponent is concerned a min raise calling a reraise is usually a drawing hand of some kind and with this in mind I'm c betting the flop, I prob bet about 1/2 pot.  If called I will in principle be looking to check turn and call river if bet into, but the turn card is obv very relevant. 

Not to happy about checking this flop to an agg player because the preflop action has to some extent defined the hands, so not sure what an agg player would be representing in order to bet.  If the pre-flop action was me raise/agg player call from BB, I might check this from time to time, but would prefer to c-bet. 

If I c-bet and get raised, it really depends how much.  He either has a set or a big draw if he raises, so I might call and wait for the turn.  I might also fold vs some players particularly those that play draws passively.

1) What’s your play here given reads?  If you have been snug, is AJ the kind of hand you want to see when you are starting to open up your 3-betting requirements? If not, what kinda hands would you prefer.

Wow I 3-bet this 100% of the time against a min raise but thinking about it... If we have a tight image are we not turning our hand into a bluff? He's prob gonna fold worse hands so we aren't getting any value out of this good hand on the button that crushes his range. I guess if we call there's a good chance the BB may come along for the ride as well. If they (SB or BB) have AQ+ they prob squeeze so if one of them does just call and we get an Ace or Jack high flop we're probably good and may get some action from AXs or something.

If we are starting to open up our  3-betting requirements, are we not better off doing this with ATC/suited connectors so we create a looser image and can get value from QQ+ and AK.

2) What are the pros and cons of checking behind on flops like this? How does this change if your opponent is very aggressive?

OK if he has missed which is likely he will prob fold to a C-bet. If we check we might get him to call or bluff later streets with a worse hand, we are only scared of 2 overcards as we have an Ace. We are controling pot size with TPTK which is fine. Cons are that we might give him a free card to hit a flush or poss I guess straight draw. If opp is aggro then we should be more inclined to check, I would rather call a turn and river bet here than a flop check raise.

3) What is your move here? If you bet, how much? And what will you do if villain raises? And why.

I like a check. We can bet the turn if he checks again. If we bet and he raises then going on your read "His aggression factor is low on the flop/turn" it may well be a fold especially as the board is so dry but there's always that chance he's on a flush draw or a bluff so it's a frustrating and tilt inducing thing to have to do.

These questions are interesting cos I would normally unthinkingly 3 bet then C bet this hand and that may be the best way with a looser image but with a tight image a more passive line may well be correct.

I rarely play Hold 'Em Cash (and only "Live"), so this is a bit above me. But here goes.....

1) I'm NOT Raising with this, I'll call though, even a decent sized bet.

2) I want to control the pot size here, so I'm check-calling for a street or two. I am just not comfortable with any of this, & I'm reluctant to get too deep. I'd much rather call pre-flop Raised (in Cash) with very bad cards, low-suited connectors for example. I really don't ever wanna get too involved with A-J, & it's a bigger nightmare if we catch the A, given the chance of A-Q & A-K being out.

3) I check, if he Bets I am done with this. I just dislike this as a starting hand. A-J down are usually folds for me, though I'd call if suited, & if it comes two flushers, now we go to war.

Tony,

your in position.. when i said check behind , it means checking the flop after he checks, sorry if it was unclear.

My apologies.

Well in that case, I suppose, reluctantly, I have to stick a flop bet in, but I'ain't chasing here, any RR interest from him & I'm outa here, especially as you mentioned he has a tendancy to bet the River strongly. I'm just very anti AJ I suppose. I doubt if I've ever gone broke on A-J, except when a shorty in Tourneys.

Hi all, heres part 2

Action is, you bet $80, and he calls.

4) given pre/flop action, what kinda range are you giving him at the moment. Would you think it more/less likely he is drawing given the reads outlined earlier?


Turn is the 6h , making the board 6c Jc 4h 6h  (pot $295)

Again villain checks…


5) what is your action here? Is now the time to slow down and exercise pot control or are we missing out on too much value?


Action, you bet $200, and villain calls


River comes Qd, to make a final board of 6c Jc 4h 6h Qd (pot $695) and villain now shoves the rest of his stack in, $558.75


6) What kind of hands would you assume he has here, and what is your action given reads?


7) Assuming the river was the 2h instead of the Qd, would your action on the river be different if he pushed all in?



Reveal to come on Friday/Saturday

As he calls your flop bet, I think he is likely drawing although a passively played AA/QQ is a possibility (although you indicated that he raises bigger pf with these).  I think he 4 bets KK preflop for fear of an ace, doesn't 4 bet QQ in case you push or AA in case you fold.  He could also possibly have JTs or JQs or Axs, 6xs 75s. obv a set is in his range.

The turn isn't good although it gives us a draw and makes a set less likely it could have improved 6xs.  I would've checked the turn and hopefully pick of a bluff on the river.

When he calls the turn bet I am quite concerned, surely 6x reraises because of the 2 flush draws and the draws fold because of the paired board?  So this seems like a made hand of some kind that is scared to raise or doesn't feel the need to: QJ JT AA QQ 44 64 66.

I'm folding to his river push as the turn bet call makes me think I beaten (JT is the only hand in my range I'm beating).  If he has hung in there on a draw and pushed the river when he missed I'm going to get him eventually.

Good point about the 2 on the river it shows a possible flaw in my thinking, i.e. I am looking for hands that beat me -QJ- that fit the present action and not all hands that can be deduced from previous actions.... That being said my fold is primarily based on his calling of the turn bet and not the river overcard.

loads of long winded replies making me tired, who is everyone trying to impress???   call pre flop, and bet 3/4 to the full pot on the flop simple

if you check the turn you have an easy call here. now you have a difficult decision. i lurve to call but whether or not you are ahead here, who knows ???

I think you have really missed the point of the hand of the week threads,so how about you ignore them in future, because sloppy useless comments like this are no use to anyone.

hear hear. i can't be botheed to ype one but i like reading them.

Ditto.  I don't think my replies would do any justice, but I love reading these threads to understand how some of the better cash players think.

Fourthed. It's not WHAT you do in a given situation, it's WHY. That's how many of us are improving our game, by learning why we do things in poker, questioning accepted concepts.

If I'm told to bet half the pot in a given situation, I'm gonna ignore it, because I need to understand WHY I should do that.

Posted by: action man


Just a thought....But it may be the hours you keep that make you tired rather than the nature of the posts on this thread. I don't think it's a good idea to try and understand complex poker strategy when you've just rolled in from the casino. Come back tomorrow after a good night's sleep and a relaxing bath and maybe you can start coming to terms with some of the theories on offer here.

Good stuff as usual Totalise.

or maybe your deep in a multi on stars, and fancied a look on the h.a board to see if anyone misplayed AA by shoving after a raise and an all in, thats all.

 OK I'll give this a stab.

 First up we have 3-bet A,J suited on the Button and received a call from a player that can be described as tight passive(until the river that is).Can we put his range at 88+,AJ+,very possible I think going by the hands he has shown down on the other table.

 Then he check calls both the flop bet and the turn bet.What does he have to make these calls?. Can he slow play an overpair like this? especially after the turn pairs the board and brings a flush draw.I don't think he can,he has got to bet/raise the turn surely.JJ is unlikely but not impossible.At the moment I would put him on 99,10,10 or even AJo/s.

 Now comes the river and a push from him.What the hell has got to do this with?Can we really evaluate his pre-flop calling range to include JQ,not out of position surely?Did he really play QQ,KK,AA this badly on the flop and turn? not at this level he would get eaten alive no?.Can we give him credit for 44,66 or JJ here? 3 specific hands that the action doesn't necessarily suggest.

 What we also have to consider is what does our opponent think of us.He has been at our table 5mins but has been on our other table to see us piss away over 2 buy-ins.Does he think we are at-it?Did he widen his pre-flop range becuase we were on the button? If he did, does this include QJ or 6x even? Can he afford to give free cards(or cards at our bidding) when Holding QQ,KK and AA even on this board?.

 Now we have come to decision time.I don't think his pre-flop range would include JQ out of position to a 3-bet.It takes a brave/foolish man to play QQ,KK,and AA this way and I don't think he is either brave or foolish.44,66 or JJ(QQ as well) does he think our hand is strong enough to call a push(our range is quite large).Or does he do this thinking we can't call?I'm going to discount AA/KK/QQ and QJ here because I can't see him playing these hands this way.He is either very strong or very weak.

 There are now 3 hands I don't want to see but there are more that I beat so on this basis and the fact that I've been lagging it up on the other table which my opponent has seen then I think I'm good, enough times to make this a call.

 I would not be surprised to see 88,99,1010,or even AK here but very pissed at seeing AQ.

1) What’s your play here given reads?  If you have been snug, is AJ the kind of hand you want to see when you are starting to open up your 3-betting requirements? If not, what kinda hands would you prefer.

Given that he donks around on min raises and tends to show strong hands when making a larger raise, especially ones that might dominate you, I'd stick in a re-raise to try and take the pot there and then. If he calls, then we have position.

2) What are the pros and cons of checking behind on flops like this? How does this change if your opponent is very aggressive?

Unless he's hit a set, I am pretty sure we're ahead here. It's more likely that he has a Jack or a middling pair, so I'm happy to keep him in here with a small bet.

3) What is your move here? If you bet, how much? And what will you do if villain raises? And why.

I bet $60, which probably goes against anything anyone else says.

4) given pre/flop action, what kinda range are you giving him at the moment. Would you think it more/less likely he is drawing given the reads outlined earlier?

Could easily have a set, but I'm thinking more along the lines of K-J, Q-J, 8-8, etc.

5) what is your action here? Is now the time to slow down and exercise pot control or are we missing out on too much value?

I'd bet again. The Turn is a good one in my opinion, as it doesn't fill a flush whilst simultaneously makes the chances of 6-6 less likely.

6) What kind of hands would you assume he has here, and what is your action given reads?

I'm worried about about 4-4 or Q-J now, although the chance that he's bluffing a flush draw make this a tricky decision. The fact that he tends to get busy on most Rivers would lean me towards a fold.

7) Assuming the river was the two hearts instead of the , would your action on the river be different if he pushed all in?

Except for a busted flush draw, a bluff doesn't really make much sense from the way he has been betting, so I still think I'd opt for a fold. Very unlikely he has the flush, but I'm worried about 4-4.

On behalf of totalise, this is what happened:

"I called, villain had 66 for quads, and I doubled him up.

The mistake in the hand given his stats/reads is in betting the turn, with his high river aggression factor he is quite likely to bluff the river if he whiffs a draw, it lets him value bet worse hands, and it controls the pot so that you don't lose as much when you have the worst hand. Also typically players that have stats that increase markedly from flop to the river are more likely to be prone to slowplaying, so given all that, betting the turn got me into a spot where I inflated the pot more then necessary, allowed him to outplay me and doubled him up."

I have a little gem that someone told me a long long time ago for smaller cash tables. Never call a big big overbet on the river without the nuts or near nuts. You will save a lot of money. Was good advice that.

Cheers for posting this totalise, very informative and good for all of us working on our game.

Yep, good hand that, don't think you can ever assume someone has quads though and fold.