blonde poker forum

This week we are going to The Venetian  in Las Vegas...it's our annual holiday to the mecca of poker and winning this tournament is going to get the trip off to a great start.

So lets take a look...

The Tournament

Environment:           Live Game
Type:                       Multi-Table Freezeout   
Players:                    76                           
Buy-in:                      $550
Starting Chips:         $10,000
Prize Pool:                 $41,800
Blinds:                       $800/$1600 with $200 ante
Remaining Players:   9
Average Chips:        $84,500
Chip Leader:            $125,000

We are at the final table of this tournament and we have just busted the shortest stack so 9 players remain...we have been playing for 6 hours. This hand involves a clash between the 3 chip leaders.

History

The standard in this tournament has been mind-boggling at times. We have been shocked by the poor play of some of the participants. An unimproved A-K seems to be the Holy Grail of poker hands for many of the tourists. However, there are also some solid professionals playing including S Dannenmann, runner-up in the 2005 WSOP Main Event.

Our two opponents in this hand are UTG, a sweet and attractive young lady from Toronto...we will call her "Maple Syrup". We shared a table with Maple Syrup earlier in the tournament. She check-called all the way to win a huge pot after flopping quads and won another big pot...again check-calling all the way with an unimproved A-6 of diamonds?? She seems to have no set strategy but rarely takes the lead and the diverse range of hands she has shown make her incredibly difficult to read.

In middle position we have a typical loudmouth American table captain. Although we have not played at his table we have heard him loud and clear throughout. He commentates relentlessly whether he is in the hand or not. He clearly believes he is the best player and is not afraid to let that point be known, he is the current chip leader and everyone at the table knows it!! He is the spitting image of a character out of the sitcom Friends...so we will call him "Chandler".

The Players
Chandler:          $125,000  1st of 9 and in middle position
Maple Syrup:     $112,000  2nd of 9 and UTG
Mantis01:          $110,000  3rd of 9 and on the button

The Hand

Maple Syrup raises to $3,200. It gets to Chandler who makes a big show of how strong his hand is but states that he will cut Maple Syrup a break and only call....but if anyone raises behind he is going all-in and puts his chips on the line to demonstrate this. It gets to us on the button and we look down to see....

 Ts  Js

We have a good drawing hand with position...there is $10,600 in the pot and it costs us $3,200 to call. Do you call here and if you do what are your expectations with this hand? Would raising with position be a better play considering Chandler has hammed up his hand? Would he put you on a monster if you did this and is it worth the risk?

We decide to call and both blinds fold (no appreciation of value here)....the pot now stands at $13,800

The Flop

 8c  9s  9d

What do you think of this flop? Is it good for us?

Maple Syrup quietly pushes $5,000 over the line. Can we read anything from the size of the bet? It gets to Chandler who gets up and starts pacing about?? He returns to the table before declaring she is making him nervous now and so will only call. The action gets to us so what should we do? Is raising, calling or folding the optimum play here? Can we make any real judgements about the strength of the hands out there and if we raise how do we proceed if either of our two opponents re-raise?

The pot now stands at $23,800....further action and the turn card will appear on Wednesday

Pre flop you have to give Maple Syrup respect for a hand, a passive raising from UTG. Chandler could conceivably be calling with a wide range - have you seen him play Ax? I'm thinking a pair here, though - he knows that Maple must be strong, thinks he's stronger, and figures he might not get too many callers because of Maple's image. He might conceivably be playing a drawing hand, hoping to hit the flop big, and giving the big speech so he doesn't need to lay down to a reraise, but from middle position it's more unlikely.

I don't re-raise here, even with position, because I don't think you'll knock Maple Syrup off. If she re-raises you strongly you'd have to think about getting out. If Chandler has woken up with a real hand, is playing it cute, and reraises, you're done. If Maple Syrup just calls, Chandler will be priced in the for the call. Re-raise is too risky, you're getting decent odds, and given Maple's previous post flop action, you might well get paid off if you hit the flop big. Flat call.

I think you have to like the flop. You might choose to like the action before it gets to you even more. By now I'm putting Maple on an overpair - it's a rainbow flop and a passive is less likely to bet enough to deny other players proper drawing odds. With a hand of real strength or a weak hand, as we've seen, she's more likely to check this flop. What does Chandler have? Normally I'd be worried about the big speech post-flop, but if he's been acting up all tournament maybe that means nothing. A slight concern would be a pair of pocket eights (or, more improbably, nines). That's a possible holding for him. If he's loose pre flop he might be playing A9. But actually I might be more likely to put him on a premium pocket playing trappily so he can show us how clever he is later.

I don't think a jack or ten on the turn will help you, so it appears you've effectively got 8 outs and a backdoor flush draw. You're only getting 4.8-1 on your money, but with Maple something of a calling station and Chandler possibly holding a biggie, your implied odds are potentially huge. There is no point in re-raising - you're not ahead here and, worse, you're unlikely to be able to run a stone cold bluff past these two if you don't hit. So it's a flat call for me.

Just call me Mr Passive :)

I hate the call pre-flop..a min raise from a weak player and a loud "I got something and am not afraid to stick all my chips in the middle" from the table moron. You've got nothing here (pre-flop)..absolutely F all...

On the flop there's no point in raising here as neither of the players are likely to fold. A 10 or J won't help you and therefore you're hoping to hit a Q or 7. for 5k You have to call here, especially with the implied odds you're getting against players like this..but there is absolutely no point in raising here.

im calling to control the pot size and have position on both on the turn. This could be the critical hand.

Got to call pre-flop getting those odds....Chandler's ego/over-confidence could be the key to you winning a big pot here if you flop big in position especially if you can bust a possible overpair UTG


On the flop well you've got the draw you call pre-flop to get (not interested in top pair with J10, merely made two pair and straight possibilities)

Raising here in position could buy you a free card on the turn to improve on the river against UTG alone, but reading what Chandler would do if you do raise isn't straightforward...would appear to me that he's the type thats full of bull but this well placed in a comp in these circumstances I'd probably control the pot and re-assess on the turn

Of course the paired board is a worry for down the line, but mixing with the only two bigger stacks than you here by raising on the flop strikes me as building a pot unneccesarily at this stage..as I don't think a miss and a bluff on the turn following through necessarily gets through

Call.

Agree with the call pf as stacks are deep enough and C's bluster will prob stop anyone getting frisky in the blinds.  Raising isn't a great idea as MS has shown calling station tendancies.

The flop is a bit problematic.  I really don't like drawing on a paired board because it is difficult to get all the chips in when you hit as the other players must worry about you having a 9, but in this case if MS is such a calling station we might take some chips from her.  The other problem with paired boards is that occasionally we hit and are still behind e.g. MS holding QQ.

Interesting that C appears to be entirely ignoring you and lavishing all his attention on MS, I wonder if this will change if you call the flop.

My standard plan here would be to call with a view to bluffing the turn if I miss, but I really don't know if this will work here.  Let's say MS checks a rag turn and C bets.  A raise here is going to get C's full attention if MS folds and if he senses any weakness.... 

I'll call the flop bet, but I would really like to have some idea about what they think I have when I call - hopefully C will tell me.

call preflop against these two players as it seems you could get paid off handsomely if u catch a monster, raising the flop would be a huge mistake here as you may not get to see the turn card if one of them pushes. Also you want to hit your hand and then extract some chips. Same therory applies to preflop, plenty deep enough to take a flop in pos with this hand against these two players. Call on the turn. If C and M are not on made hands or are weary about the strength of yours then they may check to you on the turn. You can then choose to peel off another card or have a stab at the pot, all the time taking in reactions from the lady and the tellbox.

Action: preflop: CALL
flop : CALL

Do you call here and if you do what are your expectations with this hand?

I'm happy to see a flop here without risking Chandler being true to his word. We haven't played with him yet, so it's hard to decipher if he would fold to a raise. Also, we don't want to risk being re-raised by Maple Syrup and being forced to fold what is an attractive starting hand.

Would raising with position be a better play considering Chandler has hammed up his hand?

It's more about our position here and seeing what the other two players do. If they both check, then it may be worth taking a stab at it. Plus, we have a creative hand that can hit a nice flop against a big overpair. No need to get too busy here pre-flop.

Would he put you on a monster if you did this and is it worth the risk?

He might put us on a monster due to his speech, but he might also call anyhow. It doesn't really matter though, we're more worried about Maple Syrup.

What do you think of this flop? Is it good for us?

It's not a bad flop. It depends on what the other two players do. If it checks around, we have the option of taking a free card.

Maple Syrup quietly pushes $5,000 over the line. Can we read anything from the size of the bet?

Seeing that passive inexperienced players don't know how to bet legitamtely, it's difficult to tell whether she's betting an overpair or betting small because she feels inclined to do so with A-K, even though it's missed. Judging by her calling station ways, though, I'd say she has the overpair, especially as she's raising pre-flop from under the gun.

It gets to Chandler who gets up and starts pacing about?? He returns to the table before declaring she is making him nervous now and so will only call. The action gets to us so what should we do? Is raising, calling or folding the optimum play here? Can we make any real judgements about the strength of the hands out there and if we raise how do we proceed if either of our two opponents re-raise?

We want to bust someone here so must assume Maple Syrup she has the overpair. There's no point in semi-bluffing, because she'll probably call us down with Ace high, which beats our hand anyhow. Also, Chandler could be hamming it up with a 9, so if we semi-bluff and he raises, we'll have to fold and lose the chance of a free card. I'd flat call and pray for a straight. We only want to beef up the pot in this situation when we've actually made our hand.

Part II

We opt to flat call the $5,000 flop bet so the pot now stands at $28,800 and we go to the turn....

The Turn

The turn card hits the deck and it is the

 7d

The board now reads

 8c  9s  9d  7d

We are watching Maple Syrup closely...she hesitates...looks like she's going to bet and then reconsiders before checking. Chandler checks almost instantly and says nothing.

So the action gets to us....what should we do?

Is checking a good idea to conceal the draw we have just completed? Or should we bet? If we bet how much do YOU suggest? Do you think that considering it is early in our holiday and a good payday will make for a really enjoyable week we should just push all-in and finish this hand now?....remember this pot will give us the chip lead. Does the fact that it is unlikely both players will fold influence the amount you choose to bet? Are you looking to pot-build or alternatively do you think we are already behind?

We decide to bet....and after cutting down $15,000 in chips we slide them across the line. What do you think of this bet?

Maple Syrup quickly reaches for her chips and announces "call". It gets to Chandler and he demands..."Why are you trying to steal my pot with A-10...if Maple Syrup hadn't called I would've set you all-in!" He counts out his chips...looks at me...looks at Maple and calls. What is going on here? Can you put either of our opponents on a hand?

What sort of card are we hoping for on the river and will you call an all-in should it come to it. How confident do you feel?

The pot now stands at a whopping $73,800 going to the river and we have a remaining stack of $86,800....

Further action and the all important river card to come on Friday.

I don't think that, before you bet, you can think you're behind, although you might choose to worry that you might be. It's difficult, this, because there are a number of scare cards on the river that would force you to re-evaluate. I wouldn't be wildly worried about a diamond, but I'd be worried about a 7 or 8 coming, because Chandler might well have a 9. I also wouldn't be too keen on a Q, K or A appearing, because that would fit any of Maple's hands.

I've definitely got Maple on an overpair and I think she is going to check call all the way, unless you overbet the pot, and maybe even then. At this point, with Chandler's check ... well. I'm thinking a single 9 has to lead out here even if he doesn't know Maple's tendencies.

I'm all for building the pot, but I don't want to make it too cheap for Chandler. Maple isn't going to go away. I'm putting in a higher bet than 15k. I'm going to make it pot sized. I want Maple to call and, really, I would prefer Chandler to fold, although if Maple calls with odds of over 3-1 he might choose not to go anywhere. If they both fold, I won't be TOO unhappy. I guess the value of putting in only 15k means that it makes it easier to get away if a scare card does come on the river.

After you've put the 15k in, Maple's call is consistent. Chandler's call - well, it might be a scared call, but it might also be a boat or even quads. I don't put him on a single 9 with an overcard to the board any more. I really don't like his little speech here - that "oh, I know you're drawing but I'm not going to raise the pot anyway because I'm weak" thing injects fear into my spine.

Whether or not you call an all-in on the river rather depends on who it comes from, what the action is before the all-in, and what card hits. But by now I'm really quite worried that Chandler has us beat, and I'm hoping for a lack of action on the river.

perfect size bet imo. was thinking 15k. I hope for a brick on the river, and call most bets, probably even an all in, if checked im betting between 35-50k to pick up a caller.

What the fk is C on about?  He cannot honestly believe that anyone called the flop with AT. I can only assume that he has an overpair prob KK and is playing ultra weak.  MS could have a wide range, but prob Ax, overpair most likely.

I would have bet a little more, 25k maybe mostly because I might feel obliged to check an overcard turn and I'd like to get paid now.

Sounds like Chandler might have made his hand here, perhaps a full house with Pocket Sevens. However, I can't be sure enough to check, so would bet around 10-15k. Maple is likely to have an overpair, so we need to get another bet out of her before one of those many scare cards hit.

Is there not a case for an all-in here? You might get called by the overpair UTG....

Posted by: TightEnd

That's a fair point Tighty. But does the paired board prevent such a bold move?

I suppose Chandler is the worry here, does he have a completed hand with 77, 88 etc and thats what all the speech guff is about?

I would have bet $20-25k I suppose,but I feel the all-in might not be the worst option

Part III

As the river card comes down I am watching Maple Syrup closely...there is little point in watching Chandler's reaction because he is staring intently at ME. So we have the rather bizarre sight of Chandler looking at me...me looking at Maple...and Maple looking at the board.

The River

The river card hits and it is....

 Ks

Maple glances at her chips and quickly checks. It comes to Chandler who is already cutting down chips...and a lot of them by the looks of it. He prepares $40,000 ready to push and then returns to his stack for two $5,000 chips...puts them on top and announces "Enough of playing softball poker" before shoving $50,000 into the middle. We throw a glance at Maple who is already counting out chips. It is impossible to say for certain what she is planning but it is safe to say that the serial check-caller is definitely putting chips in here...and it does not appear our involvement is relevant to her. So what do we do?

Do we call Chandler's big bet? Considering Maple has check called with a massive range does her involvement worry us? If we call it's because we think we have the best hand right? So why don't we shove here to get paid in full? If we are not prepared to shove why are we prepared to call? If we do call and Maple pushes what do we do then? Does the poor standard of play in this tournament affect your reading of this individual situation?

Now I've got a headache!

I think there's a chance we've run into two monsters here, Chandler with Pocket Sevens and Maple with Pocket Kings. That's a big assumption though, so a call could be justified, however, I certainly wouldn't re-raise. It's a fold for me.

I'd like to think I'd fold - from what you've said I think Chandler may have been overplaying AK but may have had KK all along and maple has in my opinion got at least a full house and maybe quads, definitely think you're beaten by at least 1 of them.

Would find it hard to fold but do think it's the right play (although I wouldn't be wholly surprised if you did have the best hand, board is  just a bit too scary to want to risk your tournament life on it).

Bad bad card, but with the likely overcall this pot is massive - surely C can't be betting a pair here?  I fold - if he is that bad I still have enough chips left to get him later.

well I suppose one of them beats you (KK,88,77 somewhere)but with the likelihood that MS will only check call you can call here

Bad card the king. I think against these two you'll find a better spot. I fold on the hand analysis board and in real life can't get away from it, call and curse.

Im a station and the pot is huge, call :)

The reveal to this hand can be found by clicking the link below. Also at the foot of the page are some concluding afeterthoughts from Mantis which are always fascinating and certainly worth a read.

Many thanks to Mantis for posting this hand, I think it's one of the most interesting to grace this board thus far, and perhaps a bit more fun due to the location and characters. Maple Syrup sounds like a right sort to me, and she's now rich!  ;)

Personally, I think Mantis played this hand well - which (ahem) basically means he played it the same as I would have. Anyway, enough of my babbling, find out for yourselves who had what. How close were you?...

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/11932 (http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/11932)

people who pass this hand i doubt will be long term winners in mtt play. If C has us then Its truley unlucky, we have called preflop to hit a big hand in position, We have hit the nut straight and only a house beats us.

I'm not sure about that action man. I think each situation in tournament play is unique and the situation is often more than just the cards on display. There are many other factors to take into consideration here. Hitting your card and then mentally committing your tournament life to a hand that is beaten by 7 other hands regardless of the other factors involved is a debatable mentality. It seems a bit one size fits all to me.

I don't think you can call this bet. If you believe you have the best hand you MUST push. But in order to push for your tournament life you would need to put the other two on hands you can beat.....what are those hands??

If you fold and make a mistake you are still is a strong tournament position but if you call and this is a mistake you are out. Successful tournament play is about more than just one hand in my mind.

These statements contradict each other.

If you decide to play then calling is fine. The extra 30k or possibly 60k of chips you potentially lose out by pushing are far less important than denying yourself the opportunity to recover should you be wrong. If you win this huge pot without raising, then even a relatively incompetent player should be quite capable of winning this tournament from such a strong position. If you call and lose, without committing your last $32k of chips then you still give yourself the chance to spin these up to a win or improve your position at least.

It's the classic case of the depreciating value of chips in tournaments, risking chips of great value to win chips of far lesser value.

I don't agree JungleCat and I also fail to see the contradiction.

You place a lot of value on your remaining $30k tournament chips and that's fine...but what about the minimum $50k tournament chips you are about to commit to this pot? How much value are you placing on those? You are about to call off the majority of your chips HOPING you have the best hand, not only that, considering your other opponent is already COUNTING CHIPS, you are also HOPING it doesn't get any more expensive. For me that is a lot of hope. Especially considering your strong position.

If, as you say, a competent player can win with $30k then the same player can also win with $80k. If you call the $50k what are you going to do when faced with the push from UTG? Are you now folding....and if you are why did you call....and if you're not why didn't you push?

I think the time to decide if you have the best hand is before you commit a cent more on the river. If you don't think you're ahead then folding leaves you in a strong position, but if you do think you have the best hand then why are you just calling? This is a crying call where you are not sure where you are and just hoping for the best. That might fair enough for some but when you place much value on $30k....to treat $50k with so little regard is in fact the contradiction you speak of.

this has been a really good HOTW.

Snoops nailed it huh?

Obv, just because we may lose the pot this time doesnt mean it is a bad call long-term given the circumstsances. It is absolutely crazy pushing here. We can call and leave 30k back if C beats our hand then we have 30k left to attempt a recovery, if our hand is good then happy days!  I dont understand this, "if we decide we have the best hand we MUST push" idea, if we push the river it may put MS off calling with what may be AA or AK, and lose the extra value as you have seen her counting chips. Why do we want to push if we think our hand is good? obv our hand is succeptable to a house or quads so by calling we are giving ourselves an 'extra out' if we are wrong and C does have a house we still got a chance of clawing our way back into this. The Push would be a worse move than a fold here. Still think its a pretty standard call. C Could even be bluffing the river or maybe have 56s and have the ignorant end of the straight.

I've never really been a fan of the 'you're ahead most of the time here' sort of mentality. I think there are too many factors involved in poker that stop us from making generalisations about situations. Every hand is independent and should be treated as such.

Ok, i'll explain as best I can :)

You put a lot of stock in your analysis on a flexible approach, giving yourself options, which I think is a good approach to have. Yet strangely here you are concretely committed to the idea that you MUST commit all your chips here or fold. There are situations where this is the case, but this is not one of them in my view. Poker is not a black and white game. You do not say I AM AHEAD HERE or I AM BEHIND HERE with 100% degrees of probability in the majority of cases. You just assess the situation as best you can and make what you believe to be the optimal move.  Raising isn't optimal in my view, as the gain from the extra 30-60k chips is so small when you are ahead, whereas the loss of your last 32k chips is significantly more important.


This is clearly a different issue. The issue being whether you should call given the combined strength of Chandler's bet and Maple Syrup's apparent physical tells of strength. Although i am just going by your description of chandler, I think it's safe to say you are beating his range with a straight. He's an aggressive player, and if you don't look up aggressive players with straights you'll be bullied mercilessly out of most tournaments you enter.

Maple Syrup, again has a history of calling down bets with both weak and strong hands, although clearly here she would have to be off her rocker to call two big bets without something to show down, so I would expect her to be tabling a decent hand if/ when she calls, although this could conceivably be a hand you beat.



I actually said a competent player would have all but locked up the win should they WIN this pot as they would be the runaway chip leader, so gaining another 30-60k in chips is of little benefit, whilst losing them is of quite big importance from a tournament perspective.


 

Sorry but this isn't logical. It comes back to the earlier point. You have a strong hand, yet one that is potentially vulnerable as it is not a nut hand and you are facing strength from two players. If you have a very strong impression that Chandler/ MS has a house then you fold but closing your eyes and saying "I am ahead" or "I am behind" is not a good idea. YOU DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE! Often in poker that's the case. Being aware of that fact makes you a better player. When someone makes a late position raise in a tournament you look at 45s, his stack size and how many chips you have left and reraise him  on a resteal, you do so because you feel you have a high chance of making him fold, but of course you are aware that from time to time you will have read the situation wrong and will walk into a big hand.

So, ok, look Chandler up, giving yourself a smallish but workable stack should you be wrong, but please don't put in a virtually valueless riase.

If you decide to call rather than fold/ raise, you are put to a decision should you be check raised allin by maple syrup the initial preflop raiser. It's a tough one too. Are they capable of doing this without a house? I would say it's very unlikely and I would assign an extremely high degree of probability towards them having a house if they check raise given their history of immense passivity. So sick as it would be I would probably give up the straight if check raised, despite the obviously excellent pot odds and the fact you do have a strong hand. Some players might well disagree with this though.

Remember though that she is quite capable of calling with a worse hand and will likely play all hands but houses passively so a small subsiduary benefit of calling is it increases the chances of calling with AA or other hands you are beating.

With this hand, although the results were nicely orientated in your favour, if you put AA in Maple's hand and A9 in Chandler's, the hand could quite easily play out in identical fashion.....

A well explained point actionman.

In fact Chandler holding the ignorant end of the straight would have been quite fitting...lol

My feeling at the time was that pushing all-in wasn't a road to go down because I wasn't in any way confident with the hand. Then I thought why call such a big chunk at all if I am so anti-pushing. So while agreeing the push is bad this leads me to also believe the call coupled with the potential push from the active player was also a bad move here. Having said that it's certainly a close decision that could have swung either way.

The reason this sort of hand is posted is because the decision is marginal. If hands were straightforward then it would be a pretty bland discussion. So as it goes this week's thread has been pretty successful.

The difference in attitude between calling for lots but not committing for all is the dilemma that contributed to my fold and it is interesting to see the reaction to that here. It is a question of confidence. Why call so much if you are not confident? Why be almost committed if you think you could be beat?

In this hand the stakes were very high, so whilst I agree you cannot be certain you are ahead...how certain do you need to be to make this kind of call? For me it was pretty damn certain...for others it will be not so certain...and that's because the decision is marginal.

Aggressive Chandler had been unusually passive in this hand and Maple was not even hesitating when faced with such a big bet. So I do not think this is a question of blindly making a decision about where you stand. I am saying look at the tangible evidence this situation presents and make an informed decision from it. With such a big decision I think it is better to have a firm idea of where you are in the hand. So by asking myself at the time "Would you push" answer "No I think I may be beat" I then couldn't justify the call on that premise.

I think the mathematical pointis an excellent one. But I am using the push as an indicator of confidence not to demonstrate a +EV play. And whilst I agree that nothing is certain there has to be less risky situations than this to be uncertain.

Another excellent, well explained post by JungleCat, so thanks for that contribution.

However
being potential results-orientated to prove a point is surely worse than being results-orientated to prove one....lol. But I fully understand how marginal this was.

Did C have Quads?