blonde poker forum

Hi All,

The game is 5/10nl, and we are 8 handed, you dont have any of these players on your other tables. ALL comments appreciated.


Relevant Reads

UTG:   He got slowrolled about 15 hands previous by the button in this hand, and his actions so far afterwards indicate he is likely on tilt, making overbets, raising and re-raising, and generally splashing in pots chasing the long shots. Typically he is quite a good player, but has a short fuse, and has let the button know in great detail what his opinion of him is, via the chat box.

Stack: $1,140



Cutoff: Hes only been at the table for 20ish hands, and his stack has gone from the $1k buyin, down to about $890, up to $950 again, and he didn’t reload once. Hasn’t done anything out of line, so no real “reads” apart from the lack of reloading.

Stack: $950



Button : He luckboxed a gutshot on the river against UTG, and then slowrolled him, he has been playing quite bad, definitely a caller more then a raiser, passive and seemingly likes to gamble.

Stack: $2,400



SB: Hero, been playing quite standard, 3-betting quite religiously but you have been a lot more passive postflop with your draws then is typical.

Stack: $1,620




Onto the Action…

UTG bombs it up to $50, Cutoff calls, Button calls, Hero finds Qh Jh...

What are the pros and cons of squeezing in this spot? Given that you know UTG is raising with a very wide range, and you suspect the others know it… is this a good spot to try and pick up the money in the pot?  Also, given the read above about the cutoff,  is it possible to make any inferences about his overplaying style/profitability? And finally, what do you do here, and why?

Action, you called, and BB folds.

Flop comes down 9h Th 3d, and the action is on you:

Given the reads of your opponents, what is the play that you think will maximise your expectation in this particular spot? And why?

More to come on Wednesday

Trouble with a squeeze here is that a pot sized bet might get an AI from utg or called by the button.  Anything bigger than this probably is a losing play as on its own as slightly tilty utg is going AI enough times to make it a losing play I think.

Nice flop.  I lead out with a 1.5 pot overbet, because I can't be sure of a c-bet from utg into 3 players or a bet anywhere else and if called I want to push turn.  Might not be the most profitable line, as a multiway pot might be possible and I am not going to be able to bluff another draw on the river, so interested in the thoughts of others.

I don't squeeze here as I think I get called by UTG, and I'm then OOP with a marginal hand. I'm happy to take a flop

From the basic description I would think the CO is a tight nut peddler type. Probable losing player at these levels

Hitting a monster pot, I can check raise and if called hope for a free river if I miss/check on the turn.

However given what I am playing against, a tilting UTG and a caller/ possible calling station on the button (who I cannot rely on to bet if checked to) and a cut off who also sounds passive I'm more likely to lead out with a pot sized bet, take the lead and prepare to commit if necessary.

and I should add, you say you've been playing your draws passively, leading out here randomises your play, leading a strong draw multi way

I think a squeeze play here pre-flop is a mistake, as indeed your hand is marginal and you are very likely to get called.

On the flop..I lead out here for pot building purposes. I have a monster draw and am looking to get paid as much as possible. I want callers or someone to reraise me all-in here. If I get 2 callers I'll be a happy man. I like the overbet of the pot hereas it is not as scary as a 2/3 size pot bet.
Bet about 1.5 times the pot and  call if someone reraises you.

Squeezing into 2+ steamer with this marginal hand isnt my cup of tea. Calling is fine for cheap flop.

On the flop i want to combine the strength of my hand with a huge amount of fold equity in this spot. GTD this flop has hit a lot of hands, combine this with a the effect a steamer is having on the table and im going to gamble and pray for a bet from utg. You have been passive with your drawing hands so observant oppo's will likely think you have it made, ie 910 or 333. And im c/r all-in here, after a pot sized bet you have to shut down the action here in order to maximise your ev.

Against AA no hrt ur 56%
Against A10 ur 68%
V 99 ur 42%

After you look at the pot odds you wouldnt even fold this if you knew oppo had 99 AFTER he bets.

UTG bombs it up to $50, Cutoff calls, Button calls, Hero finds   ...

What are the pros and cons of squeezing in this spot? Given that you know UTG is raising with a very wide range, and you suspect the others know it… is this a good spot to try and pick up the money in the pot?  Also, given the read above about the cutoff,  is it possible to make any inferences about his overplaying style/profitability? And finally, what do you do here, and why?

The squeeze is not a move that I’m making with this hand on this table. The con for me is that someone might go over the top of me and I’m most likely to be folding so why risk my chips in the first place if I’m not willing to follow it up with a call? So I’m calling this and hoping for a good flop.

I’m taking a risk management approach to my play so;
Squeezing = high risk of losing chips/low gain -winning what’s in the pot already
Calling = low risk of losing chips/potential high gain if I catch the flop

Action, you called, and BB folds.

Flop comes down    , and the action is on you:

Given the reads of your opponents, what is the play that you think will maximise your expectation in this particular spot? And why?

This is a lovely flop for me but I’m still thinking I don’t have a made hand although I have a huge selection of cards I could hit. I’m liking this position.
I’m going to take a risk management approach here also;

Checking = Low risk of losing chips/ high gain if I hit the turn – I’m thinking about the possibility I don’t hit my cards at all. There are still plenty of cards in the pack so potentially I won’t hit so I got to decide whether or not I’m going to call a big Raise or an all in? If someone puts me all in here I’m likely to call anyway so the advantage is that I allow other people to enter the pot to maximize it. I’m playing my passive flop way here so its likely one of the players is going to do a raise either because they have a made hand or because they are trying to steal. Either way I think this sounds like a sensible move.

Betting = potential high risk of losing all my chips here as I’m likely to call a raise or an all in/ high potential to win a lot of chips too. My only issue with the bet here is that I might scare the other players off as I’m no longer playing my passive flop game. This reduces my overall potential to win a bigger pot.
On this occasion, I’m checking and finding out what the other players are going to do and make my next move accordingly.

Be gentle as this is only my 2nd attempt at this................................................Its great fun:)

dont you think its more likely that you won't build the pot as you have been playing the passive flop? If you want to hook them in, and it's clear you do, would checking not be the best move? You've made your mind up that you are putting your chips in so why put them off potentially?

So are you wanting to take the pot down on this round of betting? For me the decision making here needs to involve what you want from the round and thats what you seem to be saying?
c/r all in = potential to kill the action and collect the pot with the raise or be called and not hit.
c/ call raise = keep the action open and hope I hit the turn. Even if I dont hit, I can keep the c/ r all in for the turn bet and keep building the pot. does this make sense? it does to me anyway............

Don't like the squeeze play here vs 3, too much likelihood of a call from UTG and if called you're OOP. Once that flop comes down I check raise all in most of the time unless I really feel there will be no action behind me.

Potentially yes, however I find most people who raise a pot pre-flop don't fold to a SB/BB betting out on the flop. They reraise more often than not and that's what I'm hoping for. Also leading out disguises my hand better, if I check call here any heart on the turn is likely to kill my action as a check-call screams flush draw to me (especially if you've been playing your draws passively).

 I want to get as much into the pot as possible and I think if the other guy has a made hand (KK/AA?) he will re-raise me more often than not here..afterall; If I had the FD or straight draw I wouldn't bet out as I've been playing all my draws passively...so I'm much more likely to have a pair  (which he is likely to beat if he has a made hand).


 Also button called and according to our description is a calling station which helps as he might actually take a shot at this and call if we lead out anyways. If we get flatcalled by 2 or more players (instead of the reraise which is what we're really hoping for) we re-asses on the turn.  

p.s. I'm not rooting for a heart to come down in this situation..I would MUCH rather hit a black King to make my straight here. I'd still have the nuts and for some reason people notice a flush much easier than they notice a straight.

I want to get all my money in the middle now, im not fussed if i get a caller or not.

thats why i reckon its quite interesting, I Mean, its impossible to play the hand badly unless you open fold or check/fold, but I donno if getting it in now is the most profitable, given the makeup of the table,  and if it is, what manner is best to get it in..ie bet/calling or check/raising, or is it best to try and keep the pot multiway, getting extra equity from additional callers in the hand? etc etc

I like the big cr as it has the best chance of taking the pot down on the flop uncontested and winning the free money, whilst also giving the pot a decent chance to swell from a utg c bet. I dont want this going multiway down later streets.

Yes I agree thats good play if you want to take the pot down on the flop. I would venture further though and just call a bet/raise and look to swell the pot further for the next stage of betting. Just a preference for me.

hi all,

thanks for the responses, good stuff so far:

With regards to the squeeze play, I think the better your opponents are post-flop, the less likely you should be to want to play out of position. They can exploit it very well, and it gives you headaches. Obviously the main problem with this is that it kinda makes it hard for you to play great hands oop coz your lack of re-raising previous kinda telegraphs your hand, so you should defo be raising here occasionally, but as a stock play, I agree that calling is prolly best. However, the worse the players are, the less you want to worry about position in spots like this, because being in the SB, you have first action on the flop, and if they are only playing a "fit or fold" strategy, ie, they only call the flop if they hit it in someway, then your positional disadvantage isn't anywhere near as troublesome as it would be against good players... and having a tilt monkey on the table fits this dynamic a lot better.

As for the guy not rebuying, experience tells me that they are usually not regular players, as most of them are auto-reloadin every time they are even 1~~4bb under the max buyin, so whilst its not a cast-iron read, its definately useful to help you with your decision making.

Now with regards to the flop, as i said before, the interesting thing here is that the only way to play this hand wrong is to either open fold, or check-fold on the flop, so whatever you do will make money, so looking at the options, they are generally:

a) check, and push if someone bets...
b) check, and call if someone bets
c) bet, and push if someone raises
c) bet, and call if someone pushes

Given the dynamic of the table, if someone bets and someone else calls before the action gets onto you, then i dont know how much fold equity you have in this spot, and it doesnt really matter as you are an equity favorite over almost any range, as alex alluded to earlier, but maybe its more profitable to just call along, and then put more money into the pot if/when you make your hand. Its not like you really need to worry about reverse implied odds here if you keep it multiway, because any hand that might make a better hand then yours isn't folding if you push anyways, so calling can keep in worse draws/made hands that might stack off if you make your hand, but fold if you push. Thats pretty much what I was thinking at the time at least. Against good players, I would defo just look for a way to shovel the money in on the flop, but given this table, I wasnt 100% sure it was the very best way to play it.

OK, so The first post in the thread details the flop action/stack sizes etc, this is the next part of the play through.

Action: Hero checked (pot $210), UTG fired in a $190 bet, Cutoff folds,  Button timed down for a while before just calling, and then the action came back to hero:

Taking account stack sizes, and the action so far, how have your considerations changed with regards to the best way to play the hand, if at all, and what do you do in this spot?

Action: Hero just called


Turn was the Jack of clubs, to give a board of 9h Th 3d Jc (pot $780)… action is on you:

How good or bad is this turned pair for your hand given the flop action/reads, and what do you do? What are the pros and cons of a “blocking bet” in this spot? Coz that’s what hero did!

Action: Hero bets $225,  UTG amazingly folds, and the button min-raises to $450

Remaining stack sizes are hero with just under $1k,  the button covers, and the pot is $1,455:

Roughly, how often do you think button folds if we push, , how often do you think button would stack off If we make our flush on the river, and how often will our straight be good if the 8 comes? And what do you do? And why?

River play to come on friday

The first thought I had was "why bet out here?" ..and then I got cranky

Your hand didn't really change as you are essentially still looking for a King (which would now give you the second nuts and you'd chop it with any Q that's out there), 8 or a heart.

Like I said the action (check call) on the flop screams FD which is why someone can reraise you. UTG probably doesn't fold because you bet out but he folds because Button boy is still in the hand.

To answer your questions below

a; You won't get any action if the heart comes down as your entire betting pattern screams of the hand you have (maybe AJ hearts even)

B; Your straight would split with any Q and to me button has QQ or a set.

I just don't like the way you played this at all..if you hadn't posted your hole cards here I think 7 out of 10 players would have guessed what sort of hand you're on..Your betting screams it...it is unbelievably bad play with the hand you have in my humble opinion.

If I had played my JQ like this (and I have done so on many a occasion to be honest) I would almost be beyond caring as to what else to do with my money in this hand and just lump it all in now..screw it...just give it away here and reraise all in..


call and pray you hit..check-fold if the river doesn't bring you what it needs to bring you and go to the cash machine..take out 200£ and flush it down the toilet..then ask www.toiletpoker.com/forum if you flushed it properly.
You're telegraphed your hand beautifully so button would have to be a complete donk to not put you on a Jack with the flush draw.


(Forgive me but I've given up smoking so I'm a  tad cranky and therefore a bit more outspoken/ruder than I ussually am with things that only annoy me slightly..I'm hoping to be over that crankyness by the time of BB5 and will buy you a beer to apologize but this really drives me nuts. You're not a bad player and this simply can not be found to be the right play by anyone..even your good self.)

of course, but when ur at a table with a steamer and someone that probably doesn't play too good, how important is this? thats one thing that is interesting here. If I had a table full of pabs and Geeforce's, I'd defo play it different. Situational poker and all that



lol

", because any hand that might make a better hand then yours isn't folding if you push anyways, so calling can keep in worse draws/made hands that might stack off if you make your hand, but fold if you push"

I honestly think you lose money by flat calling on the flop. Heart comes only a moron is gonna give you action and gives you problems if you pair one of your hole cards on the turn, as in this example. Hands that might make a better hand than yours are prolly folding i reckon. Nut flush draw might pass to large c/r ai on flop- if the betting goes as played, he wont be getting anywhere near 3-1.

As played on the turn you have a horrible position. He prolly has either 10J or (more likely) 89. I doubt you get paid if a heart comes and you need to ding a K or 8 to scoop here. But obv you have to call now, ur getting the right price for a pure heart draw, add a possible 6 (poss even 9) outs and keep being a station ;)

I would have committed myself on the flop here, $190 with $450 or something like that, calling any shove.

I do think we have some fold equity here.  Players like the button sometimes miniraise with a hand that is nowhere near the nuts, in this case prob 2 pr but might be as little as KJ.  So I think we can get a fold at least 20% of the time when he has 1 pr.  I also like pushing for future payoffs vs the button.  So its push for me. 

i am never squeezing pf. UTG will call with any hand that dominates. def value in the call tho.
on the flop its a check raise for me, not allin, but commiting myslef. with huge draws its far better to build a pot with 2 cards to come than with 1. yes u may kill your action, but also you may prevent your action being killed when you complete a flush and scare off 1/2pair. it gives you more chances to win the pot and maximises pot sizes at a showdown.

what do you do if you get called on the flop and the turn is a blank in this spot? (assuming button is the caller) you have abot 1k left on the turn, just shovel it in?

thats the prob i have with this line.

OK, final part of this HotW… Action was you just called the minraise

River was the 2h, makeing a final board of   9h Th 3d Jc 2h  (pot $1680)  and the action is on you:

Given the turn play, what line do you take here? What kinda hands would you assign him based on his mini raise on the turn?

Action: You checked, and villain again times down before betting $400.

with just under $1k remaining in your stack before the river action how good/bad is the river check, and is this a trivial value raise?

good comments all, and the reveal to come on Sunday. This wasnt one of the better hands ever played, that much is true lol

In terms of long-term equity, i think ship has the best results. He obv has a big hand, you just have to hope he has folding issues.

I like the check on the river from you here. Given you have telegraphed your hand all the way through like Telly Telegraph winner of last year's Mr Telegraph of the Year competition, at least it introduces a bit more confusion to him that a mere value bet

He bets, he must think he's value betting, hopefully not with  Ahrt Kh. I think I have him on KQ actually judging from a turn mini raise.

I ship it in now, and trust he has enough, both in terms of a hand and in terms of curiousity to call

Definitely ship it and hope for a call, if he does have 2 hearts with 1 higher than yours then that's just real bad luck. In this situation ev for shipping must be quite high compared to any other action.

you have to get your chips in here I think..folding is once again disgraceful and flatcalling is bordering on cowardice..(although as the hand played out he MUST know you have the FD so thinking he would only bet here with a better Flush than you has some value as a train of thought) You can't mess the hand up any more than you've already done...as long as you don't fold here you're doing the right thing :)

charming! i take it your still off the fags?  the point of hand analysis is to look at all play over a range of hands whether its good or bad? So the analysis should be on the cards without the  insults to the posters. if that was me you were replying to, i wouldnt post again on here. infact it put me off posting anything else on here. constructive critisism is one thing, being rude is another all together. it takes new posters a bit of courage to make a relpy in the first place. like my original reply took me ages. i had to check and double check because i was worried about being slagged off. im not trying to cause conflict here, i just want to be able to post with peace of mind and learn about all the ways to make a play, not just the 'right' way

i would agree with alex and flea and ship here.

I call

yeah still off the fags...still cranky as hell..and just a bit baffled as to why the above post was insulting really. If my first post was critisized I can see why (which is why I issued an apology in advance in that one) but I reckon the one you quoted is fine Mad...especially as I say there is some value in making a flat call here as well as a push.

Anyways..Sorry if I offended anyone..Lord knows I don't want to put anyone off using the PHA board...also, If I hadn't known totalise to be a good player but say a completely new player I of course would have responded differently.

i was talking about the cumulation of the first and second replies. is it okay to apologise in advance then use insults? lol  Totalise is big and bad enough to expose his own play and can take the kind of reply you made. what im saying is that lookers on like me are put off by this approach and are not confident in the first place around replying. add that to  potentially being told you play toilet poker and us less experienced thinkers just wont come back to post.
anyway, why dont you try NRT? your wife must be up the wall by now:)

NRT?..nonono..I will not replace one habit with the other..I'll either quit smoking or I won't..I'm not going to be one of those pathetic people who need little plasters or pills to get them through the day. I have much more respect for smokers who just continue to smoke than for those pathetic plaster wearing "atleast I'm not smoking" idiots you see everywhere these days.

My wife..she knows I'm a miserable sod at the best of times..but I'm always nice to her..she accepts my crankiness like the kind-hearted-patience-of-a-saint-like-person that she is, which is why she is by far the better person in our relationship.

like i said..didn't mean to put anyone off posting..and noone will ever again be told they should go to toilet poker.com.... :)

boldie,

your comments were slightly over the top, you know I wont care, but a lot of less frequent posters might be put off, thats the previous posters point I think.


As to the hand,with regards to telegraphing my hand, how much does it really matter in this spot, against people that you suspect aren't that great at hand reading? I guess the whole thread IMO could be condensed into this line:

"its ok to play in an exploitable manner, when people dont know how to exploit you"

and I figured there was a pretty good chance that id win about the same if I hit, and lose a bit less if I missed, given that the reads/flop action in this spot make me think that this pot somehow, somewhere, was gonna go to showdown. Against exceptional players like geeforce/pab etc Id almost never take this line, but these people weren't exceptional.

The reveal to this hand and a nice little conclusion from totalise can be found by clicking the following link:

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/12367 (http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/12367)

Cracking hand of the week this one, shame I've only just had a chance to read through it. Many thanks to totalise for his efforts.

once i have checked the flop UTG bets 200ish and 1 caller. my rr will be to about 650/750. if i get a flat caller here i will be suprised, but def not too uncommon. if the turn blanks i have about 900 back, i am not affraid to fire a second bullet here, will would mean i am in, or all but in. i think its way too big a bet to check raise all in on the flop, poss the worst hand that will call by button is top 2 (and thats marginal). this play gives 3 ways to win the pot, flop, turn and showdown. it also maximises winnings, and losing 1 and a half buyins with a str fd is very standard (certainly not overplaying)

gr8 response.  :goodpost:

Yeah, I agree. Queen-High isn't a good hand to reach a showdown with! You have to show you're committed on the flop, and exploit the current strength of your hand. It avoids tricky OOP turn decisions too.

Regarding other questions:

*I'd never make a pre-flop squeeze play OOP

*Turn shove only gives you fold equity against tight/good players

*You should be betting out on the river. In villain's position, I am checking here 90%+ of the time. If I bet (as villain), then I'm folding to a raise. You will win more long-term with a river value bet.