blonde poker forum

Full Tilt Poker Game #6292209482: Table Hathaway (6 max) - $1/$2 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 23:34:41 ET - 2008/05/04
Seat 1: codice ($80.85)
Seat 3: PhanaticSlim ($216.35)
Seat 4: trottstar ($310.20)
Seat 5: Foaming_Homer ($200)
Seat 6: Wurtzyboy ($214.75)
trottstar posts the small blind of $1
Foaming_Homer posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Foaming_Homer [7c 6c 3h 5c]
codice stands up
Wurtzyboy calls $2
codice folds
PhanaticSlim folds
trottstar calls $1
Foaming_Homer raises to $8
Wurtzyboy calls $6
trottstar calls $6
*** FLOP *** [5s 9d 8s]
trottstar has 15 seconds left to act
trottstar checks
Foaming_Homer has 15 seconds left to act
Foaming_Homer bets $16
Wurtzyboy raises to $48
trottstar calls $48

possibkly a good fold

you have the nuts but lots of hands are big favourites too your espically against 2 players

maybe a call and shove on a blank turn

definitely a time where you could fold the nuts.

The extra player flat calling maybe means you can call though as it closes the betting. Funny situation on the turn though, if deeper stacked i would like it to check to the raiser and hope to get some of the trottstar money in but it will commit so thats out.   So your only hope will be a blank turn and shovel it in. They only thing that causes a little doubt is that you were the raiser so he could be re popping what he thinks is aces with top 2 and a straight draw or something like that, maybe a total bluff on a scary board if hes capable of it.

Actually just give this up and don't raise with low rundowns again, one of the most unprofitable hands in plo for me.

Jam it in, people assume you have Aces he prob has a set 2 pair fd/str8 draw combo etc. Other guy prob 1 of those hands as well.

long term -EV play, your equity is about what your putting in to the pot in good cases and can go down to being in pretty bad shape. If we make the assumption that both will end up calling a shove which seems likely.

Foaming_Homer has 15 seconds left to act
Foaming_Homer calls $32
*** TURN *** [5s 9d 8s] [4d]
trottstar has 15 seconds left to act
trottstar bets $168
Foaming_Homer calls $144, and is all in
Wurtzyboy calls $158.75, and is all in
trottstar shows [8d Jd 7d Tc]
Foaming_Homer shows [7c 6c 3h 5c]
Wurtzyboy shows [4c Js 9c 9s]
Uncalled bet of $9.25 returned to trottstar
*** RIVER *** [5s 9d 8s 4d] [Th]
trottstar shows a straight, Jack high
Wurtzyboy shows three of a kind, Nines
trottstar wins the side pot ($29.50) with a straight, Jack high
Foaming_Homer shows a straight, Ten high
trottstar wins the main pot ($597) with a straight, Jack high

i'd have probably done that to. You were in a bad spot even when the money went in and a terrible spot to get it in on the flop..

jees I make OPs hand about 9% on the flop - is that right?

yep

But I got it in on the turn when I was 19% to win... ::)

Wow, you can't set 3 players hands up any better - Full tilt rigged obviously

Well I thought I was a half decent omaha player but according to everyone here who thinks the fold is good I can't be.

I can't possibly see how anyone can fold the nuts in a cash omaha game? I'd have jammed the flop in an instant. This might've got rid of Trottstar but once he had his flush draw as well he was going nowhere. You can see that this is what Wurtzyboy wanted to do. He was trying to protect his set against draws.

Even on the turn you're ahead, I know there's loads of draws out there but they've still got to hit. I can see here how the fold may be wise but there's too much in the pot. You're getting 3 to 1 on your money and you don't know that you're only 19%.

I think the mistake was just calling the flop. You know that you're ahead at that moment so get it in.

To put the game of omaha in to it's most basic form (which is the way I play it  :)) if you've got the nuts but there's a draw out there that could beat you then get it in now so that he hasn't got the right price to call.

Why overcomplicate it by thinking long term EV etc. You're winning!! JAM!!!

Or am I just stupid?? ;carlocitrone;

i don't want so say that you are stupid but you are certainly wrong.


Equity is king as is the long term.

basically his nut hand is incredibly vulnerable with no improvement potential. He could already be tied for the nuts with the oppo free rolling a draw, he could be up against a combined 2 hand mega draw as he is here. If you jam on the flop his equity for his $200 is around $60, meaning everytime he makes this move he loses $140 on average. He can of course be in better equity situations but if you took an average i would expect to be somewhere around 20/25% so losing him on average around $75 every time he jams the flop.

This makes sense apart from the $60 equity for the $200. Where does the $60 come from? Sorry I'm not up on all the terms.

also if he jams the flop then would it be correct for the other 2 to call? First to act has top set on a decent drawing board so does he call for $152 in to a $320 pot when he's probably behind anyway with a few FH outs to his credit? If he calls then Player 3 may be priced in but if not can player 3 call with 15 outs (only straights, no flushes) and no made hand? I don't think I would without the flush draw for back up.

Once the turn has been seen then there is no chance of a fold from anyone. It's costing Trottstar $160 to win at least $328 if he gets a call. Once Homer calls then Wurtzy's not far off his odds to hit his FH. (Although I'd have folded if I was him).

It just seems to me that this hand could've been won on the flop with an all in. Thoughts??

PS. Thanks for not saying I was stupid  ;)

He only wins the $600 pot once for every ten times he shoves and gets two calls.

Think someone best get his text book out before we go to Luton!

;tk; (They have a Lala icon!!)

The money is too shallow at this point.

If all the money goes in on the flop from all three players which it looks like it will. Floppy will put in $200  and on average will receive 9% of the pot back roughly = $60 a $140 loss on his $200 investment. When the money does go in floppy can expect on average 19% of the pot back about $120, still a loss on average of $80 from his $200 investment.

Would you fold on that flop with either of those hands if the action plays out with Floppy jamming? You shouldn't. If you fold your expected return becomes 0. Now figure out what your average return will be if you put it all in, if this is more than you are left with if you fold to the jam then calling a jam is more profitable long term. Of course there are variances in the hands you are up against but you should take estimates based on your read of the situation.

When you raised from the Big Blind preflop apart from the dream flop of  2c 3c 4c what were you hoping to hit on the flop?
Personally if I'd raised preflop then hit the nuts on a dangerous board I'd want to try and get my whole stack into the pot to try and either take it down on the flop or try and get heads up. As it happened a 2nd flush draw appeared on the turn and now I'm not sure if I'm prepared to call when potentially I could be losing to half of the pack with flushes and thats without redraws to higher straights & any sets looking to house up. My own feeling is that I wouldn't have raised from the Big Blind then a call of the raise on the flop would have been cheaper and now I could definetely get away from the hand on the turn and probably only do about $26 in the coup.Its probably me just being a nit and not wanting to get involved in a big pot with a bag of spanners.

Anything that leaves me with a wrap (pref. rainbow, at worst with clubs). Trips. The nut straight.  A raggy board like K-7-2 or A-8-3 that I can usually taken down with a bet, a low paired board where I can rep the overpair and at this level ppl don't float. Decent two pair on an non-threatening board. Full houses, Quads, Straight flushes...etc

thats why not raising low rundowns is better play oop imo. Although it's deception value against average opponents is huge, so raising them a low % of the time is a perfectly reasonable play for me.

The action on the flop is telling you that aren't getting rid of anybody with a jam as what can raise and what can call will have the right price to stay in. So a fairly quick estimate should tell you it's a bad proposition to jam.

Given the action and the stack sizes though it's inevitable once a semi blank hits the turn and floppy is unlucky to still be in such a bad position on the turn, it's fairly rare to be holding the nuts and still be in such bad shape.

Where are all these numbers coming from?? Is any of this based on not knowing what the other guys cards are?? Obviously with the information we've got here then it's an easy fold but if you call with the nuts for $48 on the flop then still have the nuts on the turn how can you possibly fold?

Like LLevan says it can't get much better other than hitting the perfect "dream flop".

What would you want to see on the turn? At least half the deck was going to make this a dangerous board (any pair, spade, diamond 10 J or Q) so try to get rid of everyone on the flop. If they don't go away then start praying.

I agree with LLevan. Don't get involved in the first place with this hand. Once you've bet the flop and been pot raised then it's time to get away or commit 100%. Your hand isn't going to get any better so either jam now or escape quick.

Stuart. Did one of you text books tell you to shove with 7 4 off?? ;D

lol @ nits talking to lag


This is deffo a raising hand, at these games you can make sick BB/100 with a PFR around the 30% mark

you just aren't paying attention then. This an extremely fucked up hand and i am illustrating the figures because we know the result and can so figure out exact numbers. But given the action any reasonable plo player will be able to figure out that he may well be in dire straights on the flop or at the very best break even/tiny profit. Jamming the flop is abysmal play here. And if you read other posts you will see that i am saying that i would get it in on the turn also, i never once stated you should fold the turn.

i bet floppy is break even at best raising this type of hand out of the BB

Meta-game benefits then make it a very positive EV

Having an image as a lunatic @1-2 PLO is so good.

are players observant enough at 1/2 for the meta game value to be of significant value?

For sure, they know if you are raising 1/3 hands!

Luckily they don't realise you play tight post, so they just assume bottom 2 is always good.

Please don't misunderstand me here. I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything I'm just trying to understand the hand. I was reading an article recently that spoke of omaha anomalies where hand A is fave over hand B, B is fave over C and C is fave over A which interested me a lot and I like to understand the figures. I find omaha intriguing and am enjoying learning it.

Given the exact hands then yes this hand is bad long term and I understand that. But if we don't know the other hands then I can't understand how any play other than all in or fold can work on that flop. If our hand can't improve then surely we're either trying to maximise the win or get away? I can't see any benefit in calling but please tell me if there is.

I would be interested to know what is Wurtzyboys EV if we jam against his raise. Should he call? Also if he does (or doesn't) then should trottstar call? These are all based on knowing the hands.

By the way, just so you know, my instinct (newbie instinct) would be to call in either situation in an online cash game because the all in could be on any old rubbish and I've got outs anyway. Just wanted you to know now so you can ridicule me if I'm wrong  :)

Lets be fair though, this is the worst possible shape you can ever be with the omaha nuts.

Passing isn;t always the correct play is it.

Is it likely to be profitable in the long term raising preflop OOP with hands like this. I don't mean to be rude its just I feel you would be better off raising with hands like these in position either on the button or cut off and then once the flop has landed you can re-evaluate your position.
Maybe its because online play has changed the way people play hands OOP but to me having been brought up on live play position was the most important thing and even more so in cash games then tournaments. Judging by a lot of the comments on this thread maybe I should be looking to change my game and mix it up more and not just look to make moves when I'm in position.
Another trait I've noticed online recently in Hi/Lo is the number of times people won't put the Lo nut hand down when they've got no Hi hand and they wind up getting quartered and do money unneccessarily in pots.