blonde poker forum

live FT, the player involved has a huge stack, a few hundred individual chips of various denominations.

he picks up a handful of chips without counting them out and throws them in the middle, stack was dirty so there's a mix of colour thrown in. the amount is unclear but it's obvious that it's quite a bit more than a min raise.

before the dealer has a chance to count out the raise the player grabs another handful and throws them on top. obviously the initial raise should play but we now have no way of knowing how much that was.

how do you rule on this as TD?

I'd allow the minimum raise only.

There's no way to determine the initial raise and it stops him from being such an arse in future.

but that penalises anyone sitting behind him with a big hand surely

I'm with Wardonkey.  There's no way of determining the initial bet, so the minimum raise is the fairest to the rest at the table.  He should also be warned not to do it again under threat of being moved to the car park.

ok, let me change it slightly.

1st handful of chips goes in, obv a big raise. next player to act has already looked down at KK and immediately announces call before the first player throws another load of chips on top.

surely it cannot be correct now to make it a min raise? that is certainly not fair to the 2nd player

Supposed the best he can hope for is min raise but if he didnt say anything then its only a call, no matter how many chips he places in the middle if he dont say raise he dont get one.

I seen a similar situation, the player acting this way had his betting privaledges removed for the hand and he could only call or fold.

this would surely only apply if you were playing a made up game in made up land.

the fact that it's a raise is probably the only bit that isn't in doubt here

minimum raise and a warning imo

OK gats but when reading original post it was not fully clear that he had announced raise but if we are to assume he did then fine.

Thanks for the sarc.

he hasn't announced raise. that has no bearing on whether it's a raise or not as he has clearly put in more than a min raise

I do think that the min raise and a warning is the only way to go here but can't get away from the fact that that is seriously unfair to the player in the 2nd example who called the big raise only to find out that it's now a min raise and they've given away the strength of their hand

well surely if play has been pulled back to the wally, then the player who called would be able to reraise? seeing as his action was to call a much higher bet.

But yeah it sucks that he has given away the strength of his hand and now the wally can fold, tough one.

Take all his chips to the middle and send him to the car park!

How does anyone know how many chips to return if he is held to a min raise? Is the dealer going to have to go through all the action to that point?

I'd say min raise and all else in the pot is his lookout - tough - thank god I'm not a TD though.

If the dealer has an approximate idea of how much the first raise was that amount could then be allowed to go.

Definitely should get a warning to stop acting like a cock

+1 +1 +1

This is an entirely different situation. If you make it a min raise now then you are opening the door to an angle shoot.

In this situation you have to try to approximate the amount of the initial raise and return the rest of the chips.

The stacks should not be 'dirty' in the first place, it's each players duty to display their chips in such a manner that everyone can get at least an approximate count from their seat. The problem would not have arisen, or would have at least been easier to deal with if this had been the case.

If he didn't announce a raise then it's a call at DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/) for certain sure. http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/tournamentrules.php
#11

 That's pretty real.

err no it's not. in what way does rule 11 have anything to do with this situation?

it's talking about a single oversized chip which is about as far away from what this thread is about as it's possible to get

Throwing in multiple chips negates this rule.  Which is what happened in OP.

I stand (bow) corrected

How about Rule 32?

As an aside - how common is the practice of throwing chips into the pot at the casinos? I see it lots at my low level games. It was an eye-opener to see the rules strictly applied at DTD.

yes, the situation we've been talking about is effectively a breach of rule 32. initially the player has raised as per 32 (1) which is fine and the amount put in should be the raise. they have then however thrown a load more chips in so it's impossible to know what the correct raise is and therein lies the problem.

there's no problem with throwing chips into the middle as long as you're not splashing the pot. the chips that you put in need to be easily distinguishable from both the main pot and any other players bets

How about counting the total chips he's lobbed in and halving it? If his stack was mixed randomly and he took two equal sized handfuls that would seem to give a reasonable approximation

Then slap him and tell him to play nice

usually multiple chips count as a raise under tda rules, especially where the amount is larger.

although i personally think any table with people throwing chis in like that isnt under the control of the dealer and many slappings should be ssued

Azi

So he dont announce raise, he splashes the pot with his raise and then he string bets, this is one classy fella!

out of interest why do you include not announcing raise there? string betting and pot splashing are no-nos but there is no requirement for a player to ever announce a raise unless they're not putting in the exact amount, I very rarely do it.

Just about everywhere i play if you dont announce raise then your motion is a call, but i do agree if you are obviously laying more chips they speak for them selves.

No comment on what the correct ruling should be against the plonker.
However, I'm not sure that the guy with KK is dis-advantaged in this particular position given that, according to the amended post, the original raiser put the second lump of chips in after the KK announced call. This surely indicates that he likes his hand and is prepared to call a raise so the KK actually has more information than he would normally have.
If the KK is happy, why not allow the full bet to stand? Also, give the KK the chance to amend his decision. Surely there is a chance to raise now and the plonker may be pot committed - impossible to say without chip counts obviously.
None of this negates the fact that the string/splash betting plonker should get a penalty too after the hand.

Also question, How many people are to act after the KK or is it just the two of them?

tricky one but If I was td I would leave the chips there and tell player b that the initial raise is a min raise which he has now called, the remainder of the chips in front of player a counts as a bet in the dark on the flop. I would then give player a (the plonker) a warning and if he does anything similar again he would get a one or two round penalty.

player a will not have the option of taking any of the chips back they all go on the flop so player b is not at any disadvantage.

however many you like. this is not a real situation, I was just wondering about it and how people would rule

What you would you do is someone raised behind after that Ariston?

if someone raises behind that the chips stay in the pot counting as a call ( and any remaining chips count as a bet in the dark on the flop assuming the KK doesnt reraise which is now his option. If the KK reraises then the chips still stay in the pot counting as a call although if he has to make up any difference he has the option of folding for the extra but must leave those chips in the pot...also if he doesnt have enough chips out there to cover the reraisers call he has the option of making up the difference or folding but leaving the current chips in the pot). This should penalise the numpty enough.

Ditto.