blonde poker forum

This learning centre is good, I can post my should-know-by-now shit here and it's ok :)

For example,

I'm faily low stack with about 12 big blinds at 150/300.  Folds to the cut off who limps as does the button.  I'm in the small blind with pocket 3's.  The two limpers have huge stacks compared to me (10k+).

Should I shove here?

Absolutely not. Fold quickly.

Hmmm this is probably close with 3's here, but i would shove in an mtt especially if there is antes andthe co & btn have not shown a propensity to call stupid light.

Shove>Call>>>>> Fold imo

why did you post on the lc? I can't be rude and sarcy now. wanted to post

[ ] this is a squeeze play

but I'm probs not allowed to

a squeeze play (pre flop) is when we go over the top of a raise and 1 or more calls, ideally with the original raiser being loose. same thing on later streets but with a bet and call(s).



in the situation in the op I'm not shoving this. you've got 2 big stacks already in and the BB still to act, not a great spot and 12BB is not dessperate enough

100% the reason :D

thanks for the replies

Agreed, except amend "not desperate enough", to "not even desperate, this is cruise-mode stack".

And add, at this juncture of a Tourney, with this stack, get your money in first. With anything.

If ONE of the limpers calls (& we are assuming the BB does not wake up with a big hand), then the second limper is almost certain to come along, as well. How do you like your pocket threes now, facing 4 overs minimum, possibly 1 or even 2 overpairs? Not much.

There, I've said it. Now the Upstarts can flame me, instead of you. Neat, eh?

Cheers.  I usually do wait to get in first but whilst I was in ok shape technically, I was a long way behind everyone else with the average being around 8k.   I seem to get low in the mid stages of comps and was just wondering if I should be looking to do something in these situations as perhaps I was missing an opportunity.   

I just limped in the end, then folded when I obviously missed my set. 

This.

DEF shove!

So what? Don't be fixated by the bigger stacks. Be lazy. Let them do the work, & bust each other. You can find a zillion better spots than this.

I'm talking, of course, about Live Play, not Online.

im shoving here with my hand in the air.


this isnt true, they only have 30x stacks and cant just peel off a 12x light.

this. People still need to find some sort of hand to call you with. My chips are in.

Hmmm, so I am possibly missing a trick.

Why?

I know you and I are going to fundamentally disagree on how much wriggle room there is with a 12bb stack. If we shove we are rarely going to get two calls so the 4 overs arguement is a bit pointless, even if we do get called by 4 overs we are probably getting a great price to triple through anyway.

I haven't done the maths but i would be surprised if folding is better than shoving, we should be looking at whether this is +ev or not. Players always over estimate their edge further down the line, you gain your edge by making the correct decision by getting spots like this right.

I can't see how folding is better than calling we are getting very nice price to set mine 33 as long as the bb doesn't raise a lot in this spot.

...well, if they are half-bright, they KNOW your Range here is enormous, &, after all, as the Thread Title suggests, this might look like a squeeze, to pick up 1,050 of dead money. (25% of our stack).

Pop to the loo, go have a fag, order a cup of tea & a bacon sarny, no need to be panicking yet awhile.

yeah but i was refering to you saying 'the 2nd guy will come along'  if we jam and limper#1 peels, then limper#2 isnt flatting v often at all.

Apologies, I stand corrected, I never realised I'd said that! The Call is fine, in fact, the Call is Mandatory. The shove is, err, "ill-advised". IMO, of course.

Why are we "rarely going to get 2 Calls"? If we get ONE, & we well might, we almost certainly get two.

I repeat, how much do we like 3-3 now?

We don't need to make this play. Call, yes, shove, never. That's never never.

I am not panicking here yet..but do reckon this is a nice spot for me to get my chips in with...because a lot of people think like you do..."He's got more than 10BBs so shouldn't be panicking yet...there are already 2 people in the pot that might call" and "It's 30% of my chips" etc.
I reckon people fold a lot in this spot..and if you're racing, you're racing.

Well, maybe, but he might well come along.

Why run across the road, with all it's attendant risks, when there is a risk-free footbridge?

ship it all in here please, i love this spot for shoving more than i love House marathon on Five US!

But the OP never made it clear if this was Online, or Live.

I'm assuming Live, because that's my "area". I'll also assume you'd Call in this spot, & never shove, were it to be "Live".

Online, of course, it's different, because our Tourney Life is so cheap, we play 8 or 10 a night, hoping to get a nice score in one. Before we go busto.

It's online

would you call or fold here then TK?

The problem with calling in this spot is you are using your money to take on a 7-1 gamble. Your stack is getting small and taking on long shot gambles will not improve matters much of the time. So your stack will get shorter still. Calling means you are looking to get lucky to change your situation rather than looking to play poker to change your situation. If both big stacks have limped it is unlikely they have a pair, so pushing with the best hand is a better gamble than 7-1 imo, because it's odds on they will fold, or at least call with the worst of it. Also if you DID hit your set when all-in you will deffo be paid which isn't true if you just call.

If Online? No idea. Online is not my skillset.

I suppose I'd do the same as Live, & Call then Pass if I dont set.

It's not often realised how different Online is - Tournament Life & survival has almost nil value, because another will be along in 5 minutes, so it breeds a different type of play. Not worse, not better, but suited to the "going".

This really should make no difference to our decision, as long as we are trying to maximise our profit and not take into account enjoying the game etc. Which is pretty much what we should be concentrating on a pha board imo.

What is the correct decision in one tourney is the correct decision no matter how many tournies we are playing. Poker is a long term game.

Of course if you are saying the calling range of our shove are different live compared to online well that does change things.

Good post Mantis, thanks


100% agree with this, some of the stuff that I get online people wouldn't dream about doing live, people can call so light at my end of the buy in range.

We get lucky roughly 1 in 8.5 times on the flop, calling getting correct implied odds to set mine is poker as far as i am concerned. We still are only calling about 4% of our stack off pre which doesn't effect our fold equity on future hands.

No, it should not, but it does, for the reasons explained.

I'd play it the same Live, or Online, but most Online players play much, much, faster, & much, much, less risk-averse. Does not make it right (or wrong), but there's another Tourney starting in 2 minutes, & we may well be 4-tabling anyway, so it does not matter much. In Live, If I drive 3 hours for a Single Tournament, let me tell you this - I will fight to my last breath to maximise my survival. So I ain't dancing for my entire Tourney with 3's, unless I'm pretty sure I can get my oppos to Pass - and in THAT case, yes, I can shove. But that's a fairly rare situation.

depends what tourney as well, i'm assuming it's not a huge buy in in which case limping late and then calling a 12xbb raise is quite common which of course reduces our FE nethertheless we cant sit about all day getting anted to death then wishing we'd shoved the 33 plus if we get looked up by two overs the pot is giving us somethng like 11/8(actually just read he had 12bb so pot odds not that much for the race but it doesnt really matter).

theres 1050 in the pot and its still a 1/3 of the big stacks chips if they want to call so it's a reasonable oppoutunity to pick up whats out there or race for a playable stack if we get looked up.

I shove that live all day as well cos i probs just wanna get to the bar!

Yes, the Call is fine. Optimal, in fact.

i hope flushy isnt eating when he reads this thread

As would many Live players. Thank God.

Anyone care to predict his response?

Evens "lol"?

See my Diary for explanation, by the way.

I know it's easy to say in theory but independent factors such as how long it took you to get to a comp shouldnt impact upon the way in which you play it.

When the field is moving away from you using your dwindling funds to take on an 8.5-1 gamble is maybe a luxury you can't afford. Yes, it's poker but it's not the most appropriate poker for your current situation. Do we use our short stack to chase all manner of draws because we have the correct implied odds to do so? Tournaments aren't cash. They are organic. So you must adapt your strategy to fit your circumstance imo.

Yes, but now think outside the box, & turn what you said on it's head.

Does that make calling & shoving light, Online, correct, just because we are 4 Tabling, & planning to play 12 Tourneys (ffs!) in one session, & thus our Tourney Life is very cheap?

Go on, I dare you. Look at it upside down.

Please shove here- my range here for shoving is huge.

Yup.

We play poker as we live our lives - we just do.

I don't like aggravation, confrontation, or fighting, I go for the easy route every time, I avoid trouble, I dodge bullets...I survive. And ditto in poker.

My money will go in when I'm ready, when it suits me, in the "softest" spot there ever was. Which will be a much better spot than this.

Who needs aggro? Find the easy road.

This is the easiest shove in the world, EVER, in the history of poker, I have never seen an easier shove to make, so obvious of a shove, please shove.


I reckon you should push here.

T3

This is the softest spot there ever was, and ever will be. You have one player to beat. You can increase your stack by 25% by just clicking the mouse on the right button...

Get off the fence FFS and tell us what you'd do here!!

Can you see a shove here?

Come off the fence Rooks, are you Shoving here?

I dont think that our tournement life is very cheap online in comparrison to live, i think that you play a lot more poker(post flop especially live) if you're just concentrating on a single table, you can make a lot more moves and there is a lot more information availible to us than if we're jamming 4+ multi's in one go which is why folk adhere to a generic stratergy when playing online but the volume of tourneys we can play compensates!  

Gotcha!

So we are agreed then - we play worse Online, because we compensate via volume?

yeah for sure!

It stands to reason that you cant play 8 tables as well as you can play 1

I dont think that concession is  pertinent here though because i  shove here always, live, online, playing 1 or 6 tourneys, it's just the correct play.

Or we play a more optimum game online as we aren't scared about avoiding +EV situations that are marginal.

"Marginal" is correct 50% of the time.......

Without the aid of google, tell me, how often is "marginal" wrong?

Folding 33 here?

Wrong. We all agreed, it was shove or Call.

There wasn't unanimity on this.

Move the short stack.

I like this by Mantis, because it's correct.

The problem with having this rigid attitude Tony is that you only play your best poker when conditions are right for you. But only then. So when you yourself are a shorty you get into your comfort zone and play good poker. But i've read many times how uncomfortable you feel when you're a big stack.

All agreed on that, then.

But this is partly wrong.

So saying this is how I play, and I play like this all the time regardless is very restrictive....because you aren't willing to change gears. And gear changing or being able to adapt your strategy to changing circumstances is a real skill in tournaments imo.

That's a two-parter.

The question was quite specific, & hinged on a key point - his 12 x BB stack, which was sub-average. So I answered it with that in mind. In fact, I ONLY answered it because that is the part of Tourney Poker I excel at, above most others. So it was a question I was in a better position - imo - to answer than most others, because short-stack play is my forte, & I'll take anyone on at short-stack Tourney play, anywhere, anytime, with great confidence, because that's what I do best.

My problem is not short-stacking, I'm brilliant at it. My problem is that I'm always short-stacked, which I'd like to rectify, but can't. That's the gear-change I need, to which you allude. If I could chip-get with the kids, it'd be different, but I can't, I'm risk-averse, & like to sit back & let others do my work for me at the Table. And to be honest, I don't really want to change my style - because I value my Bankroll too much. I'll never win a fortume at Tourney poker - not many will - but I'll never lose, either. And most do. 

So you are right, in that I can't gear-change very well, (though I can adapt strategy easily). But I cope with one gear.

errr you seem to have a conflict with yourself  ;D  but seriously playing some HU poker will bring you out of your nit shell :)

as for 33 in this spot with 12bb 2 limps,the question is are we looking to double up or just to steal,when down to 15bb or less when antes are in play what hands are you waiting for to double up with?

Becoming an interesting thread - I think Tony sums it up. I think I'm reasonably intelligent, quick learner and all that and yet I watch the likes of Flushy, Pab et al play a game that I could never make myself play - however '+EV' it is.

Old dogs maybe but very hard to change your fundamental nature. I'mhappy with the way I play live now, plenty to learn but can make areasonable profit. Online I've had to leave to the young guns cause I couldn't change my game sufficiently to be a consistent winning player.

Also, not totally convinced that what is +EV online is +Ev live given the tiny sample size for a live player - ie we never really get to see the 'long run'. The mathematics telling you your move was +EV as you crash out of tourney after tourney, is not going to do much for your confidence which is a far bigger factor live than +Ev calculations imo,obv.

Will try some gay min betting tonight yo !

Well we'd all like one of those big cock stacks, but I don't want one bad enough to change my style, or game. I'm results-orientated, & I prefer consistent cashes to occasional wins.

There are no Antes in play, or if there are, the OP never mentioned them.

Double-Up or Steal? With 3-3? Steal! I don't want ANY action with this.

Down to 15bb? "Down to"? Jeez, that's nosebleed territory for me!

I'm prob 100% out of step with the whole planet, but for me, 15BB, 12BB, 10BB, these are cruise-mode stacks. Deffo OK to order drinks from the valet.

Will try some gay min betting tonight yo !

Yes yes, do that. Don't forget the "yo", that's key. Apparently.

so tk how do you intend to use your 12bb and with what hands/situations, as any open raise will virtually commit you to the pot, or do you have a cunning plan?

again i ask , are we looking to double up yet and how low do we let our stack fall?


ps
i tend to look to double up when i am 15bb or less when there are antes in play...

my fault with the antes although i did put a comma in as i was asking a different question of you,with no antes i tend to shove to double up 8 to 12bb....

yo yo

With the 3's, I'm really looking to steal the pot so far, it's a nice addition to my stack and if I can do it again or ideally double up after the steal, I'm in a much better shape than if I fold, wait for a bit then double up.  Really don't want to see the flop with 3's.

As for how low do you let your stack go, well you need to have enough to make the people you are shoving into fold.   M is all well and good, but you need to be playing with people that understand the concept, I play with people that struggle to let go of any ace, yet alone top pair no kicke and thus I tend to play quite tight but I'm missing out on opportunites.

The way I tend to play is clearly similar to Tikay, and live that works for me, but online it doesn't and mid comp I'm often low in chips and need to do something somewhere.   OK, 12 BB's isnt' the end of the world, but the average was more than double my stack, but yes, plenty of time

instashovaments yo

Le Knave?

I will be getting it in from now on, so to speak!

come to luton tonight - not seen you in ages!  yo yo yo.

Love to but can't afford it.

Plus too busy being nitty in $5 comps fml

Will come up one day though, prob in Jan.  Good luck tonight :)

People may point at uber-aggressive players and say they don't want to or can't be like that. But that isn't really the point. Because those people are just at the opposite end of the scale with the same gear-change problems. If Tony reads his "We play poker as we live our lives" post again he will see nothing about the personality he describes suits big stack play. He doesn't get a big stack often and feels uncomfortable when he's there. There could be a link between the two things imo?

Personally I don't play poker as I live my life. If I did I would never win, because I don't like upsetting people. Considering winning pots upsets other people I would really fecking struggle. Poker is a game and to win you need to do what is necessary...and feel comfortable with it. Do you think Evander Holyfield goes round wanting to punch people's lights out in everyday life? He's not aggressive, but to succeed in boxing you have to be able to turn on the aggression when necessary. Just like poker. Mark Goodwin 3-handed springs to mind Tikay.

Much better not to tag yourself as anything if you can. Try and respond to situations with the appropriate answers without prejudice. Because if you do fit yourself into a pigeon hole you will really polarise your range. If Tikay pushed in this spot he would not have 3-3. We know that, and that is bad for Tony, but good for us, we can thin his range dramatically. It is the very reason Tony should push. That is great poker because it goes against the image we have and it fools us into guessing wrong. But the problem in doing it is that it goes against your instincts and so is hard. That's why poker isn't easy.

So much interesting stuff here, but I have a Show to record in 10 minutes, so it'll have to wait until later.

But I have to leave you, for now, with this.....

If Tikay pushed in this spot he would not have 3-3. We know that, and that is bad for Tony, but good for us, we can thin his range dramatically

I may well push with 3-3. But not in this Spot. Position is key when short-stacking. I have shocking Position here. Forget it. Forget it with better than 3-3 in this Position.

"we can thin his range dramatically". Really? Err....WRONG!

I'm looking for a particular spot here, with certain default setttings. Position being the most important. My pushing range starts with 2-3 - in the right situation & position. And I very rarely get looked up. Because I'm a Registered Nit.

Laterz, gay floaters, yo.

Considering winning pots upsets other people

Eh? Are you serious? Since when does losing pots upset folks - except kids, that is?

To win, or Cash, in a Tourney, you are gonna win a few Pots, & lose a few Pots.

If losing pots upsets people, they are playing the wrong game.

Does anyone seriously enter a Tourney expecting not to lose a single Pot? Avoiding getting upset, & tilting, because you lose a Pot, is a given if you are to enjoy this game. And that's the only reason to play poker, whether you be an amateur, or a Pro.

good points on TK's image, although depends on what sort of players you are playing.At the lower buy ins they are not good enough to notice if TK has not played a hand for 3or4 orbits imo.


to make players nowadays fold to a shove the accepted min is 8 to 10bb in general,also to survive another orbit when the blinds and antes are in play then shoving any 2 cards 1st in from late position should be in your poker arsenal but the ultimate goal is not to drop below 8bb imo otherwise you can forget about running deep in mtts imo.The main goal is to try and double up though when you are short stacked is it not?

i got this far. zomg tikay if i didnt know you better id think you were levelling. passing this spot is like burning money.

poker is a great game where lots of different strategies can work. isnt it fun. :)

edit, just read your diary.

Tony, you have a mild manner and have many years playing the game. So dealing with the highs and lows comes easily to you. But this is a skill, not a natural given. Don't underestimate yourself. Last time I played, the guy I c-raised thumped the table so hard my big stack toppled over into his. Made sure it took me ages to pick them up as well. He was pissed off because he wanted to win the pot and was put in a difficult situation. I was very happy he had this pain. Whether someone thumps the table or not they want to win the pot bad. I would say if losing pots doesn't upset people, they are playing the wrong game. But that's different to being emotional about it and tilting about it.

They know about his image.  He makes sure he mentions it at least 4 times every orbit.

omg this thread tilts me so hard!!

Right so you are not trying to maximise the profit you make from the tournament you are trying to maximise the time you spend at the table, the OP i believe was asking which was the 'better play' in respect to making the most money not spending the most time in the comp, i think so anyway.

Tourney life? Forget this concept it means nothing, you make +EV or the best -EV plays you can again the aim is to WIN MONEY not HANG AROUND.

Hard to WIN MONEY,if you haven't hung around a tad - FACT

I have played with you a fair bit and have read a lot of your hands over the years i think you short stack game is appalling bad, i don't know anyone who has played as long and as often as you yet still plays a short stack so bad.

What do you think is good about your short stack game? Remember the aim of the game is not to stay in as long as possible.

There is a big difference between hanging around and winning chips.

Oh and as to the original question...

Folding is 0EV
Flatting is +EV
Shoving is ++++EV

[X] most poker players think they play a great shortstack

[ ] most poker players crush high stakes SNGs

Well the answer to all of James replies is much the same.

To the best of my knowledge, you can't win a Tourney from the Rail.

Or, to be less ironic, I actually take Tournaments in little stages, aiming at a certain, achievable, target, then re-targetting, one step at a time.

Hanging round v winning chips? You have to do one before you can do the other.

The aim of the game is not to just stay in? Well, if you plan to win, or even cash, you need to stay in.

This is like the whole 2012 discussion, we will never agree.

You are stuck with these beliefs and no matter how many people far more knowledgeable than you about the subject tell you otherwise you will still believe in Nostradamus playing to survive rather than win money.

I'm shoving here. The fact their stacks are large means they're more likely to be limping with marginal, but very foldable hands. Along with the blinds, antes and the cracking fold equity, this is a perfect spot to push your strack in. You're likely to pick up lots of dead money without having to risk an all-in showdown. To be honest, I'd probably shove with any two.

Just to change the debate a little, what would everyone do with 33 here in exactly the same scenario, except you're:

1.  UTG
2.  In middle position

Poker is often about pressure. The problem with this thinking is that you can be pressured a lot of the time by people who don't place the same emphasis on survival. This is ok if you get hands. It can work at full tables when the opportunities to use other skills will be plentiful. But take that attitude to short-handed poker or short-stack play and it's tough because the opportunities and the hands are rare. Aggression is the key in both scenarios imo.

Yup, it's unlikely we'll agree on this. We'll both get by though.

As a curiosity, would you care to explain your criteria for "far more knowledgeable"?

UTG. Bin.

Middle (unopened) - shove.

Not one person has mentioned "position" in this Thread. Well, just the one.......

No, I don't get pressured, ever. You forget one thing. I play with my own money, always, so I play the game on my terms. And my default setting is to act, not react, be proactive, not reactive. So I'm far more likely to shove in Position with ATC, then to react with 3-3 in THE worst spot on the Table.

What happened to positional sense, & play? Does everyone ignore it now?

Was pretty much typing in the same as Tikay, just not hitting reply in time

With regards to position, by shoving all in preflop, don't you to a certain extent negate all effects of position?

Yes - but, as you correctly say, "only to a certain extent".

Seriously. What The Fuck?

YOu want to shove unopened from MP to get through 4 ppl + but when there is two limpers from LP (dead money 90% of the time), you want to pass. Position is irrelavant, you arent playing flops ffs.

Well given that we are pushing it all in pre position matters not given we are hardly going to be outplayed post flop?!?!




People who have studied the game for the last few years, who have tried a variety of different styles, who have moved through all the levels of the game and seen the game change dramaticly but have adjusted to continue wining and lets say have played at least half a million hands.

I'm not that tough to beat, even OOP!

have to agree with TK there,sound logic if you think about it....If you shove any small pair when 2 big stacks are in already and you have no reads is it sound advice to tell someone to shove them in every time when you have 12bb, i'd thought that it was dependent on reads [if limpers are weak etc etc] with 12bb no antes.
Survival is a rarely used concept online because a lot of players are playing 4 to 8 mtts at the same time sometimes and in my opinion certain players take the volume/maths things to far in online mtts to justify there plays.

it is hard to justify it as +ev as we do not have cash positions or how many players are left..

To Kin, UTG no antes its close for me i probs jam but a lot of things can put me off, from Mid easy jam.

From the SB with an overlayed pot and no-one showing any aggression even from LP then wonderful spot to shove.

Position isn't impotant when you push is it? Much less important than the situation anyway. If the position is so bad then calling and playing a pot from here with a short-stack is just throwing money away. You may not get pressured Tikay, which is again a skill, but the limpers might. You have the stack to do that now, but if you keep dribbling money away on long shots oop you soon wont.

I think I'm shoving anything down to 5-4 suited here.

should we take into account the buy in level here ?? because if we shove to steal , 1.4 to 1 odds for a low buy in opponent even though it represents 33% ish of there stack is an easy call for them :) also there limp range can be pretty bizarre at times..

A consideration if we had J3s but given we have a pair a call is not that bad anyway.

I wouldn't shove to steal. I would shove because I think I have the best hand. A hand that doesn't play well post-flop, oop, with a short stack. Getting a call from 2-2 or A-3 would be nice.

Shoving ranges mathematically don't change that much from utg to mp interestingly.

After a muck about with sngwiz using cEV as an equity model.

Utg looks about -.5% shove
MP is about neutral equity.

OK - I was thinking along similar lines.  I shoved in a tourney not so long ago when fairly short from UTG with 33.  I was thinking afterwards that maybe I should have waited for a better position (i.e. I don't have to get through a whole table hoping they don't have a huge hand and so I'm in big trouble).

yeah. infact id rather get the call and have a workable stack than operate with this flatliner.

as an aside, at what BB level do ppl think flatting>shoving? 17bb+?

read op and just need to shout shove

The UTG opener has got like half the average stack himself and it's the last hand of the night and he's just opened for more than 10% of his stack. The guy doesn't need to be an idiot to call, he just needs to say feck it let's try and spin up a stack for day 2, and people do that in every live tournament. Easy to do after 10 hours of poker when the pot is massive. Easier than stacking when you miss anyway.

feck it wrong thread

looooooooooooooooooooooool quality

I quit smoking New Year. FACT!

this bit was funny as hes just been grimmed out of his life roll
Bryan says:
hf doin whatever... im gonna play the HU matches and watch the incredible hulk and go to bed I guess

This.

But I read every post and don't comprehend how we got 7 pages of nonsense.

smoking what?

'Tis blonde.  7 pages is just warming up...

needs more love

it's the most replied to thread in the Learning Centre.  Obviously an important topic ;)

You not seen TK's diary?

just read the entire thread. its amazing how objective some people's thoughts are. The ability to learn and to adjust are abs paramount to a players winning potential.

Stopped reading after July 2007.

Ya about right imo.

crack

dont give it up then, it's great

I know its an old thread but i enjoyed the read.

Any changes TK ?

I'd shove!! You need to go up a few Gears when your short stacked in a tourney. 10 BB and all in is a must before long. Assuming BB has a blind hand then the other 2 limped, i doubt they'll call you for 1/3 of their stack.

I done it in a tourney yesterday with 14,000 at 800/1,600/100 from BB. 7 out of 8 limped, i shoved with KQ and when every one folded and i was up to 26,100. almost a double up without a call.

I've just read this. I'm a pretty nitty player, but even for me this is a shove with one hand in the air moment.