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Title: flush river board Post by: AgentChip109 on December 29, 2008, 05:17:58 PM not really too sure wot i want asking, just opinions on how we both played the hand really.
***** Hand History for Game 1347722848 ***** $200.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, December 29, 04:42:27 ET 2008 Table Bribie (50 bb min) (Real Money) Seat 6 is the button Seat 1: mrolli1000 ( $212.00 USD ) Seat 3: BigStick7th ( $184.00 USD ) Seat 6: Laglos ( $197.00 USD ) Seat 8: AgentChp109 ( $658.65 USD ) Seat 10: colddesert ( $241.20 USD ) AgentChp109 posts small blind [$1.00 USD]. colddesert posts big blind [$2.00 USD]. ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to AgentChp109 [ 3c 3s ] mrolli1000 folds BigStick7th folds Laglos folds AgentChp109 raises [$5.00 USD] colddesert calls [$4.00 USD] ** Dealing Flop ** [ 3d, Ac, 5c ] AgentChp109 bets [$6.00 USD] colddesert calls [$6.00 USD] ** Dealing Turn ** [ Js ] AgentChp109 bets [$16.00 USD] colddesert calls [$16.00 USD] ** Dealing River ** [ 4c ] wot u do now? check/fold, check/call, bet/call, bet/fold Title: Re: flush river board Post by: Longy on December 29, 2008, 05:41:23 PM I bet/fold assuming he isn't tricky, something around 1/2 pot. I would make it more pre as well but I suppose if he was a total fold bot, we can steal for cheaper.
Like flop and turn. Reads are pretty key here. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: snoopy1239 on December 29, 2008, 07:23:32 PM He could have an ace and still pay you off, so I bet half the pot and fold to a raise.
Title: Re: flush river board Post by: bolt pp on December 29, 2008, 10:08:34 PM two people say bet 1/2 the pot to fold which is exactly what half the pot looks like, a bet that you'll fold to a RR and if you've got that in mind when he re-shoves you start second guessing yourself, i like closer to 2/3 - 3/4 here.(if i'm feeling adventurous i might bet 4/5 but i didnt want to say that cos i couldnt work out if it was more or less than the fractions i posted)
Title: Re: flush river board Post by: pokerfan on December 29, 2008, 10:08:52 PM standard river bluff situation imo
Title: Re: flush river board Post by: leedsfish on December 30, 2008, 12:15:17 AM he could easy have A2 i would check
Title: Re: flush river board Post by: leedsfish on December 30, 2008, 12:16:13 AM then call
Title: Re: flush river board Post by: bolt pp on December 30, 2008, 12:22:31 AM check calling is the worst line you can take here.
Title: Re: flush river board Post by: TightEnd on December 30, 2008, 12:25:20 AM check calling is the worst line you can take here. why? out of interest the club on the river is a great bluffing card for the foe. Equally a weakish bet on the river by hero with the set here can see you get pushed off by a raise here easily... so check calling will often get you to showdown cheaper? Title: Re: flush river board Post by: noble1 on December 30, 2008, 12:31:15 AM check calling is the worst line you can take here. why? out of interest the club on the river is a great bluffing card for the foe. Equally a weakish bet on the river by hero with the set here can see you get pushed off by a raise here easily... so check calling will often get you to showdown cheaper? this line i prefer also,although i think villain is floating but without reads is a tough one to value bet lead river oop,so check call seems the most logical play in this situation. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: bolt pp on December 30, 2008, 12:40:29 AM check calling is the worst line you can take here. why? out of interest the club on the river is a great bluffing card for the foe. Equally a weakish bet on the river by hero with the set here can see you get pushed off by a raise here easily... so check calling will often get you to showdown cheaper? The club on the river is a great bluffing card for the foe which is why we bet, it takes away the oppoutunity for him to do so + we lose value not betting against Ax as he has showdown value and checks behind(the pots not really big enough for him to be thinking about turning Ax into a bluff here) Title: Re: flush river board Post by: bolt pp on December 30, 2008, 12:45:24 AM check calling is the worst line you can take here. why? out of interest the club on the river is a great bluffing card for the foe. Equally a weakish bet on the river by hero with the set here can see you get pushed off by a raise here easily... so check calling will often get you to showdown cheaper? this line i prefer also,althoughi think villain is floating but without reads is a tough one to value bet lead river oop,so check call seems the most logical play in this situation. based on what? it's a shothanded $1/2 game and we've got no info? Title: Re: flush river board Post by: noble1 on December 30, 2008, 12:54:36 AM check calling is the worst line you can take here. why? out of interest the club on the river is a great bluffing card for the foe. Equally a weakish bet on the river by hero with the set here can see you get pushed off by a raise here easily... so check calling will often get you to showdown cheaper? this line i prefer also,althoughi think villain is floating but without reads is a tough one to value bet lead river oop,so check call seems the most logical play in this situation. based on what? it's a shothanded $1/2 game and we've got no info? what are you basing a 3/4 bet on river on ?? Title: Re: flush river board Post by: totalise on December 30, 2008, 12:55:34 AM yeah, if we are bet/folding we are pretty much assuming that he calls when hes beat and he raises when hes beating us, so betting 3/4--> full pot makes more $$ the times we are ahead... and for us to actually bet in the first place, we have to assume that the frequency with which they call us with worse is >50%, so theres no really harm in betting more.
If we starting going down that road whereby "but he knows he can push us off the hand with a raise".. then we can bet and then call, but we dont have any reason to assume he will turn reasonable hands into bluffs Check calling here is likely worse than check/folding because his valuebetting range is probably better than our c/c range, and hes not going to bluff that often... what hands does he get to the river with in this manner, that will bluff the river if we check? In general, better hands bet, showdown value hands check.. given the board texture, and the flop/turn action. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: bolt pp on December 30, 2008, 12:59:42 AM check calling is the worst line you can take here. why? out of interest the club on the river is a great bluffing card for the foe. Equally a weakish bet on the river by hero with the set here can see you get pushed off by a raise here easily... so check calling will often get you to showdown cheaper? this line i prefer also,althoughi think villain is floating but without reads is a tough one to value bet lead river oop,so check call seems the most logical play in this situation. based on what? it's a shothanded $1/2 game and we've got no info? what are you basing a 3/4 bet on river on ?? I thought i explained what i'm basing it on already?(if not read what totalise has just posted) I'm just a bit confused as to how you can so specifically put him on 2 bricks here? The idea he's floating supports your river line of c/calling but even if you were playing at the table you'd have to have a pretty specific read on the guy so it really isnt based on anything solid other than you sort of want it to be the case as it's the only hand he can have that would make the river c/call +ev. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: snoopy1239 on December 30, 2008, 01:00:57 AM I'm happy to bet half the pot. Any more, and I think he may fold many hands that we are beating. I'm not worried about being reraised by a weaker hand, that rarely happens in this situation from my experience. As for checking to allow him to bluff, I don't like this either as most hands that call bets on the turn and river of this board will have a some sort of piece and simply be checked down.
Title: Re: flush river board Post by: Royal Flush on December 30, 2008, 01:02:10 AM Lead 50% snap the raise!
Inducing ftw! Title: Re: flush river board Post by: TightEnd on December 30, 2008, 01:03:47 AM Lead 50% snap the raise! Inducing ftw! I believe the term you are looking for is "gay bet to induce shove yo" no need to thank me. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: noble1 on December 30, 2008, 01:05:02 AM yeah, if we are bet/folding we are pretty much assuming that he calls when hes beat and he raises when hes beating us, so betting 3/4--> full pot makes more $$ the times we are ahead... and for us to actually bet in the first place, we have to assume that the frequency with which they call us with worse is >50%, so theres no really harm in betting more. If we starting going down that road whereby "but he knows he can push us off the hand with a raise".. then we can bet and then call, but we dont have any reason to assume he will turn reasonable hands into bluffs Check calling here is likely worse than check/folding because his valuebetting range is probably better than our c/c range, and hes not going to bluff that often... what hands does he get to the river with in this manner, that will bluff the river if we check? In general, better hands bet, showdown value hands check.. given the board texture, and the flop/turn action. i can see your logic a little bit,but with no read on what villain has actually got a 3/4 pot bet wont be called by anything that we are beating,where as if we check call we induce bluffs and he may think his ace or 2 pair is good... thus we keep a semblance of pot size control oop against someone who we have no clue of his holdings..and keep our losses to a min if indeed we are beat. With a good read jam it in if we are fairly sure we are ahead but i cant see the point in spewing cash by guessing.. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: bolt pp on December 30, 2008, 01:16:04 AM yeah, if we are bet/folding we are pretty much assuming that he calls when hes beat and he raises when hes beating us, so betting 3/4--> full pot makes more $$ the times we are ahead... and for us to actually bet in the first place, we have to assume that the frequency with which they call us with worse is >50%, so theres no really harm in betting more. If we starting going down that road whereby "but he knows he can push us off the hand with a raise".. then we can bet and then call, but we dont have any reason to assume he will turn reasonable hands into bluffs Check calling here is likely worse than check/folding because his valuebetting range is probably better than our c/c range, and hes not going to bluff that often... what hands does he get to the river with in this manner, that will bluff the river if we check? In general, better hands bet, showdown value hands check.. given the board texture, and the flop/turn action. i can see your logic a little bit,but with no read on what villain has actually got a 3/4 pot bet wont be called by anything that we are beating,where as if we check call we induce bluffs and he may think his ace or 2 pair is good... thus we keep a semblance of pot size control oop against someone who we have no clue of his holdings..and keep our losses to a min if indeed we are beat. With a good read jam it in if we are fairly sure we are ahead but i cant see the point in spewing cash by guessing.. "I can see your logic" "But i cant see the point by spewing cash by guessing" you clearly cant see the logic, DUCY? Title: Re: flush river board Post by: totalise on December 30, 2008, 01:17:28 AM yeah, if we are bet/folding we are pretty much assuming that he calls when hes beat and he raises when hes beating us, so betting 3/4--> full pot makes more $$ the times we are ahead... and for us to actually bet in the first place, we have to assume that the frequency with which they call us with worse is >50%, so theres no really harm in betting more. If we starting going down that road whereby "but he knows he can push us off the hand with a raise".. then we can bet and then call, but we dont have any reason to assume he will turn reasonable hands into bluffs Check calling here is likely worse than check/folding because his valuebetting range is probably better than our c/c range, and hes not going to bluff that often... what hands does he get to the river with in this manner, that will bluff the river if we check? In general, better hands bet, showdown value hands check.. given the board texture, and the flop/turn action. i can see your logic a little bit,but with no read on what villain has actually got a 3/4 pot bet wont be called by anything that we are beating,where as if we check call we induce bluffs and he may think his ace or 2 pair is good... thus we keep a semblance of pot size control oop against someone who we have no clue of his holdings.. Given that you say you have no clue of his holdings, you seem awfully assured that he wont call with any hand that we beat. People LOVE to assume that people have nuts-or-nothing on boards like this, dont fall into their trap and let them be right. You can generally infer something about his holdings, you know hes not likely to have fk all and you know hes not likely to call two streets with nothing, hoping for a scare card to ping right off on the river so he can steal the pot, so with those inferences, its a lot easier to narrow down his ranges. A lack of infornation doesn't mean that you shouldn't try and make assumptions, it just means that the lower the amount of available info, the higher the margin for error is.. but you cant just go around assuming nothing and just hoping to bink your way into showdown without even caring what he has, especially given the way we got to the river! Title: Re: flush river board Post by: snoopy1239 on December 30, 2008, 01:17:34 AM Betting to induce a raise doesn't really work here. His range for this move is so thin. If the jack hadn't arrived on the turn, the perhaps middling pocket pairs might spaz out, but apart from that, and a very unlikely double float, most other inferior hands will just flat call, even if you min bet. He could have 6-4, K-J or something, but compared to the likelihood of him holding top pair, I feel a value bet on the river is the way forward. If he raises, fold, the draws have made it and anything else would just flat-call.
Title: Re: flush river board Post by: snoopy1239 on December 30, 2008, 01:21:15 AM yeah, if we are bet/folding we are pretty much assuming that he calls when hes beat and he raises when hes beating us, so betting 3/4--> full pot makes more $$ the times we are ahead... and for us to actually bet in the first place, we have to assume that the frequency with which they call us with worse is >50%, so theres no really harm in betting more. If we starting going down that road whereby "but he knows he can push us off the hand with a raise".. then we can bet and then call, but we dont have any reason to assume he will turn reasonable hands into bluffs Check calling here is likely worse than check/folding because his valuebetting range is probably better than our c/c range, and hes not going to bluff that often... what hands does he get to the river with in this manner, that will bluff the river if we check? In general, better hands bet, showdown value hands check.. given the board texture, and the flop/turn action. i can see your logic a little bit,but with no read on what villain has actually got a 3/4 pot bet wont be called by anything that we are beating,where as if we check call we induce bluffs and he may think his ace or 2 pair is good... thus we keep a semblance of pot size control oop against someone who we have no clue of his holdings..and keep our losses to a min if indeed we are beat. With a good read jam it in if we are fairly sure we are ahead but i cant see the point in spewing cash by guessing.. There are a couple of problems here. One, even without a read, top pair is still a likely holding considering the betting pattern, and certainly a hand that can call a value bet on the river. Secondly, there are too few spanner hands that he can hold in this situation to bluff with if we check, thus making checking to induce a bluff pretty pointless. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: noble1 on December 30, 2008, 01:30:38 AM my point was that a 3/4 pot size bet will not be called by 1 pair or 2 pair with the river card that has arrived.
anyone think that he will call these if we 3 barrel ? Title: Re: flush river board Post by: totalise on December 30, 2008, 01:52:17 AM my point was that a 3/4 pot size bet will not be called by 1 pair or 2 pair with the river card that has arrived. anyone think that he will call these if we 3 barrel ? yup I do.. but thats not the point, the point is, that people DONT think he will bluff the river, given how he got there.... and that the times he bets, he cant have air, and a high % of the hands he bets, for value, will have you beat.. compared to hands that he can CALL With, that he will presume are bluff catchers... like Ax/2 pair etc. What is your range, overall, to bet this river? because you are making it out to be air or flush. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: noble1 on December 30, 2008, 02:10:14 AM we can go round and round in circles here,you say i cant deduce that he wont call a 3/4 pot with a worse hand than ours yet
you cant deduce he will :) there is no read except he has called 2 streets and yet you say lead out but give no idea of what villains hand range is.. we have showdown value here which is why i prefer the check on the river and call a reasonable bet by villain if he bets out. Why wont he bluff river if we check,do you have a reason to think this? Title: Re: flush river board Post by: totalise on December 30, 2008, 02:22:13 AM we can go round and round in circles here,you say i cant deduce that he wont call a 3/4 pot with a worse hand than ours yet you cant deduce he will :) there is no read except he has called 2 streets and yet you say lead out but give no idea of what villains hand range is.. we have showdown value here which is why i prefer the check on the river and call a reasonable bet by villain if he bets out. Why wont he bluff river if we check,do you have a reason to think this? its been explained so many times already.. how is he getting to this river, with a hand that has to bluff to win? look at the flop action, look at the turn action, look at flop texcture, look how it matches to turn/river texture..what hands are bluffing here? and if he wont bluff, how often does he have a hand, of value, that will fold to a bet, but will v-bet the river? I can make a lot of deductions on this hand, based on past experience with players that could well fit this persons player perspective... given that he is, full stacked, at a 50bb min table.. so you can make a lot of pretty reasonable assumptions, and whilst they wont ever be as solid as direct reads, they are going to be a lot stronger than this "I just want to get to showdown without thinking" perspective. this seems like classic late-night-poker thinking... get to river, scare card hits, insta go into check-call mode. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: noble1 on December 30, 2008, 02:28:24 AM i assume you think the check call is wrong then :)
please expand a bit more on the benefits of leading out on river with a 3/4 pot bet,as i cannot see the point you are trying to make in favour of this? Title: Re: flush river board Post by: totalise on December 30, 2008, 02:31:48 AM i assume you think the check call is wrong then :) please expand a bit more on the benefits of leading out on river with a 3/4 pot bet,as i cannot see the point you are trying to make in favour of this? just re-read the thread about that, it covers it all perfectly. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: bolt pp on December 30, 2008, 02:36:18 AM i assume you think the check call is wrong then :) please expand a bit more on the benefits of leading out on river with a 3/4 pot bet,as i cannot see the point you are trying to make in favour of this? has to be a level Title: Re: flush river board Post by: AgentChip109 on December 30, 2008, 02:40:14 AM heys guys, thanks for alll responses
here is the result. think u guys may have a bit more of a discussion after this lol. i was very suprised by his action as u will probs see. i did decide to bet about half pot with the intention of folding if he put some kind of decent raise in ***** Hand History for Game 1347722848 ***** $200.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, December 29, 04:42:27 ET 2008 Table Bribie (50 bb min) (Real Money) Seat 6 is the button Seat 1: mrolli1000 ( $212.00 USD ) Seat 3: BigStick7th ( $184.00 USD ) Seat 6: Laglos ( $197.00 USD ) Seat 8: AgentChp109 ( $658.65 USD ) Seat 10: colddesert ( $241.20 USD ) AgentChp109 posts small blind [$1.00 USD]. colddesert posts big blind [$2.00 USD]. ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to AgentChp109 [ 3c 3s ] mrolli1000 folds BigStick7th folds Laglos folds AgentChp109 raises [$5.00 USD] colddesert calls [$4.00 USD] ** Dealing Flop ** [ 3d, Ac, 5c ] AgentChp109 bets [$6.00 USD] colddesert calls [$6.00 USD] ** Dealing Turn ** [ Js ] AgentChp109 bets [$16.00 USD] colddesert calls [$16.00 USD] ** Dealing River ** [ 4c ] AgentChp109 bets [$32.00 USD] colddesert raises [$90.00 USD] AgentChp109 folds colddesert wins $175.00 USD from main pot colddesert shows [Tc, Ah ] now my question is, he must be bluffing me surely?? Title: Re: flush river board Post by: totalise on December 30, 2008, 02:46:22 AM hahaha so awesome, I can feel myself tilting already.
Title: Re: flush river board Post by: noble1 on December 30, 2008, 02:49:26 AM any points on a re-raise on the river :) if we lead out...
nice play by villain :) Title: Re: flush river board Post by: bolt pp on December 30, 2008, 02:56:25 AM now my question is he must be bluffing me surely
yeah just a little bit! two people say bet 1/2 the pot to fold which is exactly what half the pot looks like, a bet that you'll fold to a RR and if you've got that in mind when he re-shoves you start second guessing yourself, i like closer to 2/3 - 3/4 here. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: AgentChip109 on December 30, 2008, 02:58:58 AM so he thinks he could be gd on flop and turn but realises by river he def isnt so thats when he decides he has to bluff me to be able to win?
Title: Re: flush river board Post by: noble1 on December 30, 2008, 03:01:53 AM i think villain was going to re-raise even if you lead out 3/4 to pot, he just used position or is a complete maniac lol
how did you get on with him in later hands? Title: Re: flush river board Post by: totalise on December 30, 2008, 03:02:11 AM so he thinks he could be gd on flop and turn but realises by river he def isnt so thats when he decides he has to bluff me to be able to win? after you made that small bet, yup... but if you bet 3/4 --> full pot, hed just call and you would be gravy :) Title: Re: flush river board Post by: bolt pp on December 30, 2008, 03:09:31 AM so he thinks he could be gd on flop and turn but realises by river he def isnt so thats when he decides he has to bluff me to be able to win? he played flop and turn fine and you gave him the opportunity to take the pot away from him, do you bet 1/2 pot with flush here? your bet screamed of what it was. It's interesting to me that instinctively so many peeps liked the 1/2 pot size bet specifically to fold to RR, If this is ppls standard line here it's not beyond the realms of possibility the villains encountered this situation before It's so much more difficult for him to make this move if you bet bigger. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: AgentChip109 on December 30, 2008, 03:12:58 AM since reading negranues book, i have been going for the half pot bet in these situations a lot more and they have been working very well for me. didnt play too much wiv him later on tbh, nothing specifically comes to mind
just realised i gone past 300 posts whoooooooooooooo! lets get some staking on the go lol Title: Re: flush river board Post by: bolt pp on December 30, 2008, 03:16:00 AM since reading negranues book, i have been going for the half pot bet in these situations a lot more and they have been working very well for me. didnt play too much wiv him later on tbh, nothing specifically comes to mind just realised i gone past 300 posts whoooooooooooooo! lets get some staking on the go lol negreanues a shit online player at his level let alone grinding mid-low stakes. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: noble1 on December 30, 2008, 03:27:22 AM did the turn call he made [in position] based on the size of bet you made and the texture of the board strike you as odd?
anyone any thoughts on this, i know it struck me as peculiar as to what hands he would do that with.. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: bolt pp on December 30, 2008, 03:31:20 AM did the turn call he made [in position] based on the size of bet you made and the texture of the board strike you as odd? anyone any thoughts on this, i know it struck me as peculiar as to what hands he would do that with.. There are several things that strike me as odd on this thread, that isnt one of them. I like to vary my cash game play as much as possible so i may not have even been playing the hand as me and my pal take turns intermittently taking over from eachover during sessions to baffle our opponents as we play quite differently and he might have taken a different line than me. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: totalise on December 30, 2008, 03:42:51 AM did the turn call he made [in position] based on the size of bet you made and the texture of the board strike you as odd? anyone any thoughts on this, i know it struck me as peculiar as to what hands he would do that with.. you guessed right, enjoy it.. given ranges, I'll take my actions over any other actions, every day of the week. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: noble1 on December 30, 2008, 03:52:43 AM i'm not like that totalise,wrong or right i just enjoy considering different lines of play in a certain situation,there was some good points of views through this thread,good stuff.
Title: Re: flush river board Post by: Ismene on December 31, 2008, 02:54:40 PM i'm not like that totalise,wrong or right i just enjoy considering different lines of play in a certain situation,there was some good points of views through this thread,good stuff. Off topic but how old are you noble? Title: Re: flush river board Post by: spence on December 31, 2008, 07:17:33 PM I like just under 3/4 pot here. anywhere 65-70% feels right (although i would usually bet 72-73% because I'd have bet 2/3 on the flop as well as the turn and 3x streets of 2/3 causes similar issues to the 1/2 pot river bet here). In a vacuum I really don't like 1/2 pot/fold on the river as it will encourage people to turn a 2nd best made hand into a bluff. I agree with the previous posters who said he isn't going to have bricks here, but a weaker made hand is way way more likely than a draw.
It is a BvB pot tho so its perfectly possible that gameflow/reads can make the spazzier lines fine. Title: Re: flush river board Post by: noble1 on December 31, 2008, 07:39:50 PM Quote bolt pp Re: flush river board « Reply #37 on: December 30, 2008, 03:09:31 AM » he played flop and turn fine and you gave him the opportunity to take the pot away from him, do you bet 1/2 pot with flush here? your bet screamed of what it was. It's interesting to me that instinctively so many peeps liked the 1/2 pot size bet specifically to fold to RR, If this is ppls standard line here it's not beyond the realms of possibility the villains encountered this situation before It's so much more difficult for him to make this move if you bet bigger. reading through the reasons to bet 3/4 pot or more on the river, this explanation makes sense Bolt :) i don't agree with it because i still prefer the check call...but your reason nearly makes me change my mind :) |