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Cash game at DTD £1/£2 - Saturday of the £300 deepstack weekend.

My stack is £500, I have not been at the table all that long but I have just fast played a set and doubled up through someone who couldn’t let his Kings go. I feel like a foreigner at the table, well the only local anyway - at least half the table is talking in a London acent - suffice to say I know nobody. Everyone is deepstacked and if the previous table is anything to go by, they like to gamble.

Very soon after my double up with a set I get   Ahrt Qc   in the small blind.

There are two straddlers and an active player in late position re-raises to a rather odd £18. Button calls and so do I, mindful that I am out of position. The first straddler calls but the second straddler passes.

Flop is   5d 8d Qs

Pot is now £76

I lead out for £50. Straddler lets go, player in late position calls after a bit of a dwell. Button passes.

Turn is   2d

I am not liking the diamond but at this stage I don’t necessarily put him on the flush just yet. Nevertheless, I am aware the pot size is getting out of control and I only have top pair top kicker, although to be fair, it is quite well disguised. I check.

He takes a while but bets £65, again an odd amount into a £176 pot. I wonder if this is a bet screaming to be called by someone who has hit the flush. Or is it the the weak bet that it looks by someone who opened with a marginal hand - after all if he had AK or a decent pair pre-flop I reckon he would have put a proper raise in.

I check to see if my ace is a diamond - it isn’t. I call, my thinking being that I am likely still winning here, but that the pot doesn’t really want to be huge given my holding. As well as the flush he could have a worse queen than me. Remember he probably won’t think my queen (if he thinks I have one, and my lead suggests I do) is as good as it is.

The pot is now £306

The river is  Kc

Not great if he has KQ. For the same reason as before I check, intending to get a read on his actions and the size of his inevitable river bet.

He bets £155.

I haven’t seen much of this player as I am so new to the table. All I know is the other players have been giving him some stick for being slow and for being a card rack. He has a huge stack and doesn’t seem afraid to wield it.

He doesn’t look mega comfortable but he doesn’t look mega happy either.

I go into the tank, for quite a while actually. I apologise to the other players because I know they have had to wait (as have I) quite a bit recently. They assure me to take all the time I need which I take to mean 'please bust this guy and anyway he aint got anything…'

I start to look at how my hand must look to him. I think he must put me on a middling queen that can’t make a call for this much on the river.

What do we do please my friends? I will let you know what I did after a few replies.

Fold (check fold turn too tbh, you have no read on him and TPTK is not winning here surely?)

Cash games last night at DTD were so loose last night  A Q is the nuts here

easy call.

Unfortunately I couldnt hit a barn door and lost sucessive pots to 7 3 , 6 3, and 7 4...........all winning with 1 pair.

sorry wrong thread...........

call then cry as he shows  8s 5s

Indeed, the games were crazy that night. It felt like Norwegian week, with a load of foreigners up, keen to blow a few quid...

This was one of the factors in my eventual decision to call. My opponent tapped the table and threw his cards in the muck. He said he knew I had a queen and fancied I could be persuaded to pass it. The dealer went over the top saying what a great call it was - I was happy with it obviously but it got me ruminating on what a fine line it can be sometimes. I didn't know that he hadn't raised me with two connected diamonds, say AJ, and I would have looked a tit if he had, but it just goes to show that although I was right on this occasion, one can never ever be sure and you're always making a call on what you think is most likely, not definite. I suppose that's why we like poker.

cliffnotes: tell collusion brag thread

Great post and good call.

blatent brag thread

that said however, nicely done :)

Alex, do you prefer to check flop here or lead?

I was thinking this. I wouldn't lead here. And if I did I'd lead turn too.

Yeah my default line in this spot would be to check to the raiser.

leading out w/o history live is akin to burning money i think. I like c/r jam turn. Hard to get value from worse if we lead here (as it looks SOOO strong 4 way). HU i dont mind leading so much assuming villains are competent.

I knew I would get accused of bragging here. I wasn't really; I mean I was happy I was right but I did feel that the result didn't necessarily mean I had played the hand well.

Alex says I should check here to the raiser. Indeed, quite often I would do this but I just felt that the opponent would give his holding away a little in how he responded to a lead and he also looked the sort to try and get me off a hand.

I know it's a cliche, but don't I define my hand better by leading and also get a better read of the situation once he responds? If I check raise and then jam the turn aren't I only getting called by hands that beat me (draws that can get there by calling the check raise)?

I took the line I did, trying to follow the maxim "only get involved in a big pot with a big hand".

This is a contradiction no?

You say he'll give his hand away. So if he has KK or AA and wants to raise does your lead tell you he has the best hand or do you chalk it down to him being the 'sort to try and get you off a hand'.

surely leading here is worse than checking..... leading takes out all his c betting range with 76 sheets already in the middle plus hands that crush you still get it in, but you may be playing alot bigger pot down the streets etc, plus if the original raiser is half decent....... gg

I play this game at DTD a fair bit and there is one inalienable truth: If you show any weakness you will get bet into and they will not give up when they miss.
 
Most of these players arent particularly good or thinking over several streets but if you act weak they will try betting you off a hand 100% of the time.

When you check the turn he is firing literally 100% of his range and he is also floating you on the flop with a massive range; almost never are you behind.

I think the main problem is that you lead the flop not knowing what you want to do on the turn and check when the diamond hits as scared and trying to keep the pot small too obviously. Do you really think an aggro player who has 3bet pre is not going to rr you when he flops a fd?

However, If youre playing well I would check the turn specifically looking to get a bet as it gives him the impetus to try and futily represent and there is no way he ever has a flush here, you can even c/c planning to get another street of value from the river on the same line but it is obv risky as youre going to get outdrawn sometimes and you really have to be confident that you can make the big call.

ps: when you 'define' your hand as something like top pair, they are always going to try and bet you off it so its quite nonsenical imo as youre going to valuetown when youre beat and put yourself in a really tough spot when youre not.

So its 1/2/4/8 and its opened to 18? That's not a reraise it's just an open pre.

Why lead the flop with no idea for other streets with the way the straddles play i'd just c/ship it in on the flop. On the turn you think the pot size is getting out of control yet you lead the flop for 2/3 pot. The turn bet is tiny so you have to c/c at least and once he bets that size on the river I cawl pretty quickly again.


Did we not think to reraise pre? What are everyone elses stack sizes and what are the stack sizes of the people who went to the flop?

Thanks Sam, some nice analysis and I agree with your description of the average £1/£2 player at DTD. I took the line I did to keep the pot down a bit and to get him to represent into me.

I didn't like being out of position much, so given the dynamics of the player and the game I felt that this was the best way of proceeding.

Perhaps my lead on the flop was a bit of a stab in the dark but if I check he is betting 100% of the time and this doesn't tell  me much, although this becomes irrelevant if I had decided to check/raise all-in anyway.

I actually thought to myself that I didn't mind telling him I had a queen, in fact I thought it was desirable because my read of the player (and his huge stack) was that he would likely use his position and try to bet me off the hand.

I can see now that I had other options. This is why I posted, to get some other ideas.

Checking the flop widens his range more than leading out into multiple players does.

Thanks Andy,

I agree his raise preflop doesn't mean a lot given the straddles, which was a strong reason I didn't give him credit for much.
I did think about check/raising all-in but felt that he would just pass with sh1t and obviously call with a big draw or better hand. Maybe I'm conservative but I prefer seeing all streets and controlling the size of the pot. I am confident enough to do this although of course I don't always get it right.

..and I didn't raise pre-flop purely because of my terrible position (which is far more important than my cards) and because also my holding would be well disguised should it hit.

The straddlers both had less than me, the 3-bettor had more than me and the button had about the same as me. I took the button call as quite a wide range too until he let me know otherwise, so to begin with, I felt I was leading out into the 3-bettor, which is the way it turned out as it happened.

Ya Sb is sucky, and i'd be folding a hell of a lot there.

I think you should have a thought about what the straddle does to stack sizes and why betting a draw heavy board multiway to pot control isn't the best idea. As it is we are 60 blinds deep ish and have top tops against wide ranges. I'm not saying c/rai because we prob have best hand, c/rai because a) they fold their crap which is what we want because we dont have to realise our equity or b) they call it off with worse and we are ahead. Betting and then c/c'ing down when the main draw hits is leaving ourself open to being pwned esp considering it works if he doesn't bet half the pot each time lol.

edit id also rr prob some proportion because no one understands the straddle or how to play it lol. The number of people who limp fold on straddle hands boggles my mind.

I see your point, I suppose this time I was fortunate to snap off his bluff; but against a better player with bigger minerals it might not have been so easy...Still, I don't think my line is without merit. The beauty of poker is that there is more than one way to get the job done. On reflection, checking may have been a better option. Still, I posted to get a few more lines, so it's all good.

I don't understand straddling, full stop. Lol. It just seems so pointless. But I love being on a table when others are doing it....happy days...

What is there to understand??


Blinds are 1/2 stack off 400. = 200 x big blind.

Blinds are 1/2/4/8 stack of 400/ = 50 x big blind.

You'd play these two stacks differently in a tourny right?

When someone straddles to 8 there is now 15 in the pot not 3. so initially stealing the pot is of much greater value. Similarly alot of morons limp in on the straddle without the plan of lrr and then have to fold to a raise which is just donating dead money in the pot. Just straddle with a tight image and when either the whole table limps in just pump it and bet the flop or jam it in peopls eyes with AA!!

Straddling is a great way to give off the image of being loose without costing yourself that many bbs and without you having to act first pre.

Poker has no correct answers is one thing to say, re bigger minerals = not so easy. I think you are upside down on this. Without a read on a player i'm not likely to be trying to c/c down when the draw hits and pick off a bluff, with the knowledge that a player is capable of bluffing im much more likely to call down. What I mean is in some spots against good players you can often have a very easy call whereas with no information and/or against different people it may just be an easy fold.


I'm honestly not that sure what merits your line on the flop has really except for stopping it checking around. Straddle pots again are by definition alot bigger and so people (correctly) go after them alot more so I wouldn't worry too much on that wet of a board about it getting checked round. If you are truly just trying to make the best most +EV decision on every street then I think that you have to start by checking the flop, how are you going to react if you are raised by the preflop raiser or anyone else?

Re: straddling, I understand what people are trying to do, but I don't think it is +ev in the long run. The amount of times I see players having to lay down a straddle, or make a daft call because of 'pot odds' only to play the whole hand out of position, or hit the flop but not as hard as the player who had a better hand to begin with,...I could go on...

For someone like me, straddling won't fool anyone, I am very tight (with regards to position) so within half an hour the whole table will know this.

I love playing with straddlers though for the reasons you mentioned. I get the best of both worlds by not straddling on a straddle happy table. It also means I have a super tight image when I refuse to straddle and then get MASSES of respect when I do run a bluff later on.

Equally, how am I going to react if I check and he bets the pot or even more? What do I do if I check and amazingly it gets checked round? Do I fire on the turn or check once more? Now the pot is smaller and I've given a free card to boot.

Surely by leading out, as well as defining opponents hands a little better, I also have the (admittedly small) possibility that I will induce folds?

Even if I check and he just c-bets I know less than if I lead and he just calls. The former tells me virtually nothing, the latter now suggests weakness but also gives me more info on the turn.

What's not +ev in the long run putting in an extra 2 bbs each orbit you mean that specifically? Because that itself isn't the ev bit, it's the benefits you gain from taking more dead money in the future and possibly getting more action because you look looser in peoples eyes. I dont know who you have been watching but just watch good players and not random people straddling because they want to play higher or because gambling is fun.

Why are you trying to save your image to run a bluff when you could be using your tight image to pick up a free 10-30 everytime you're utg.


If you dont straddle how do you play your utg. just raise and have everyone try and 2pr+ mine you?

There is a time and a place for every play style and that is when the table is playing the opposite having such restrictively tight tendencies will not only restrict your possibly winnings but make you alot easier to play against. It's very true the looser you play (assuming you are always thinking and trying to get better) the quicker you improve.

Also the straddle is very effective in the later stages of live games where the stacks have got stupidly deep.

As I said before how were you planning on responding to a flop raise?

Given his pointless raise pre-flop, if he raises my lead on the flop, I am re-raising. He is very unlikely to have KK or AA, more likely a big draw. A set would just be unlucky for me.

I hadn't mentioned this before now (and perhaps should have done) but my lead was me betting the best hand. I can't say how much I re-raise because we don't know how much he would raise me, but it would be close to all-in I would imagine.

My lead is the best of both worlds in some senses - I am betting the probable best hand and on this table with this player I can run with it, and I am betting into a player who may well float me and/or bluff me with position.

I know it seems like I am changing my tune, but your analysis has made me realise more why I leaned towards the lead rather than the check. Don't get me wrong however, there are plenty of times that I would check in this spot, I just chose not to on this occasion.

If my oppo bets more on the turn when the diamond hits I am probably out of there, a price I accept for being out of position and having taken the lead. If you think about it, this isn't much different to me checking, him betting a better amount, me calling an amount that could well be the same as my lead anyway, and then checking and folding when the diamond hits and he of course bets...

Generally I don't play utg very much. It just sucks too much. If I get a big hand I agree, raising kind of gives it away and people can and will set mine you. A limp re-raise can work well here utg with a big pair, although I know it can be considered a bit donkish.

I need to watch straddlers a little more I suppose, but mostly what I see is terrible poker players playing bingo from one of the worst positions possible.

If it's about cultivating an image then I maintain for me it's a waste of time. People already think I'm the tightest player in history and me straddling a few times won't have much of an effect.

I'm not saying that straddling doesn't have any merits, rather that for me at the moment, the cons seem to outweigh the pros.

I've tried the pre-flop squeeze a few times from the big blind even with my mega tight image and always get called down, so extending that to a straddle doesn't seem all that smart to me.

Just an opinion and I may well be wrong. Hey ho.

Straddling is generally -ev for most ppl and more about the gambol and/or trying to appear balla imo.

It can have its advantages though as long as you can happily play OOP and are able to get youself out of sticky spots, plan ahead etc etc. Also, unless youre at least 150bb+ deep its probably a bad idea.

With the hand pyso, I dont actually think you played it badly, its just that the line leaves you in a more difficult position.

Other thing I would say is that dont underestimate the value in not having to go to showdown, if you can take it down without showing your cards its definitely +ev in the long run. You can totally manipulate the situation so that eventually someone is going to call your shove when you have the nuts as theyre just that curious!

This is how I feel about straddling too.

I wasn't sure I'd played the hand badly, but I did want some other perspectives - and I can see why several people are advocating checking to the raiser here.