blonde poker forum

In case u didn't know, regarding the recent 'WPT London poker classic' held at the palm beach casino, £200 was taken from every buy- in to go towards the tournament staff. So only £4800 went towards the prizepool from every player. It was told to the players that this was the case and that the money was taken to go to the tournament staff. This is a common practice in the U.S and is considered to be a service charge, therefore many players do not leave an additional tip when they win because they consider the percentage taken out to be sufficient, it is similar to going to a restaurant  and receiving the bill with a service charge added, it is considered perfectly acceptable to not leave anything additional for the waiting staff. 
This is not a bad system for the dealers because it guarantees them a certain amount of money without having to gamble on the generosity of the winning players.
The problem that has arisen is that out of the 40 members of staff who worked on the the tournament the whole £34,400 that was taken was  Of whom only 2 or 3 actually worked on the tournament, the rest were working in other areas. None of the recipients dealt a single hand of poker, they were brought in from Vegas to help run the tournament and bring players to the cash games. They did not do anything that anyone with 4-5 years of poker room experience could not have done themselves. 172 runners is not at all impressive and the cash game action was no better than an average night at the palm beach.
Obviously all the players were under the impression that the money taken out was going to ALL the tournament staff, so did not feel the need to leave anything additional. Out of an £800,000 prizepool £2300 was left for the dealers to split between 30 for 5 days work. On receipt of their winnings certain players actually commented on the fact that they didn't feel it necessary to leave a tip when money had been taken out already.
The man in charge of organising this poker tournament and who is ultimately responsible for this injustice is SIMON TOMSETT (poker manager for the palm beach). When certain dealers asked him where the money was going, he told a bold faced lie and said it was for the dealers, even going so far as to say (when caught out) "keep it quiet because I don't want the dealers to let me down on my next event" the English poker open. And after the event simply said "sorry guys, I'll try and sort you out next time". 
Dealers beware of working at certain premises where underhand activities are going on and make sure you know the arrangements of how you are to be paid prior to starting work.
Players please be more aware and vigilant to any activities that preside over your tournament prizepool. You don't have to stand for it. The dealers need your support.

Please pass this message on to anybody and  everybody who may have been involved or may be interested. 

The event was billed as £5000 + £300 but was actually £4800 + £200 + £300?

The £51,600 (172 x £300) was the normal rake that the organisers kept?

The £34,400 (172 x £200) was distributed with 30 dealers sharing £2,300, getting £76 each?

The other £32,100 went to the non-dealing event staff?


Have I got that right?

First part is definitely right because Tikay mentioned it in one of his posts as well.

No matter how u look at it the juice is like 11%, which is redic for a 5k! ESP when you think it's 6%

This is a shambles, hope these dealers get sorted out!

it is ridiculous : /

also they said a 25k seat for the WPT World Championship was as well as first and they just took it out of the first place money with no option given pretty bs imo.
(ps not meant to be a brag thought it was relevant)

This is scandalous - if they won't let you swap it for cash they've stolen 25k from you.

The 25k for Championship has always been taken from prizepool.

Totally wrong imo.

esp when they take it all from 1st place!

Ill tell you why they do this stuff, it's because poker players stand for it.

Vote with your feet. there is no shortage of tournaments.

I think it was in the daily "London WPT" Blog I did for "next door" Dawn, though I may be wrong. My point was the level of juice, & the way it was described, rather than the facts implied by the OP. The Blogs got plenty of comments, but not one as to the level of juice.

The Entry was £5,300, (£5,000 + £300) with £200 being deducted for "staff". This was misleading imo. If they charged £4,800 + £500 - effectively what they did - it would be fine, because they would be drawing attention to the juice being £500.

I have no issues with £500 of juice on a £4,800 Tourney - because the players could clearly SEE it then, so it's up to them if they are prepared to pay 10% juice. (Quite common in the USA). They can charge 25%, or 50%, or 100% Juice - it matters not a jot - as long as it's clearly shown, & the players can decide.

What they did was clearly misleading though - advertising it as a £5,000 Event, with £300 as juice. It was not, it was a £4,800 Event, with £500 of juice.

The regular juice - £300 in this case - is intended as paying towards the cost of running the Tourney, so I fail to see why a competely seperate £200 was charged.

If players continue to accept this treatment, Organisers will continue to do this sort of thing. There is no need or reason to charge ANY juice on an Event such as this. Some Organisations do not charge Reg Fees and yet they STILL they add value - simply by using their nous to get Sponsors to cough up the reg fee. AND Added Value on top.

I thought the way the whole thing was promoted, managed, & run, was very sad actually. I so wanted the London WPT to be a success, but they needed to bring in people who have organised, managed & run Tourneys before, & from what I could see, they did not. Even getting Player Lists was near impossible - the Bloggers had a better handle on everything than the organisers did, or so it seemed to me.

Still, it got a good winner. ;)

For the £250 rebuy they took 10% for the staff.

http://www.worldpokertour.com/Shared/Tournaments/Seasons/Season_9/WPT_London_Poker_Classic.aspx

I bet your heart sank when you saw the thread title lol.

Is that legal?

I remember there being some reason why DTD couldn't do this for WSOP sats?

I played the £1000 event at last year's London EPT which was advertised as £1000+£100.  But in reality it was £970 + £130, as another 3% was taken.

I am definitely not playing it this year. 

Was Matt Savage present in London in his role as WPT Executive Tour director?


Secondly it does seem ironic, and odd, that the "top" end of the market sees players effectively fleeced on juice, image rights, little value added and the like while at the bottom end of the market players are in many places playing juice free with added value.

No, the DTD/WSOP thing was completely different, & unrelated.

Harrahs own the WSOP brand, & their Policy is that no Cardroom or Casino which has a Harrah's owned Cardroom within 60 miles is permitted to run a WSOP Satellite. ALEA is in Nottingham, & ALEA is owned by LCI, in turn owned by Harrahs.

I never saw him, but I did see Mike Sexton, who is the Party Poker Ambassador*. Party, of course, now own the WPT.

* I have always thought it a very odd notion to have someone as an Online Site "Ambassador". Nice, though.

Jake, did they ask you if you wanted to leave a tip after you won?

Party of course, being a UK quoted company who have an image to maintain and might respond to bad publicity.........just saying.

Tighty making a bid for AndrewT's title as "the funniest man on blonde"

if they did they are sub human scum

Lol. What adjectives do you keep in reserve for murderers and paedophiles?

I think you've lost just a tinsy-winsy bit of perspective there.

There are much worse things to call peados and murderers!

This is prob one of the best places to bring this up.


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/65/mttc-live/discuss-wpt-details-executive-tournament-director-matt-savage-831192/index3.html

I agree, vote with your feet, don't play events that have this much juice, esp when it's 'hidden'. Be interesting if someone does ask Matt Savage on the other forum why it's listed as a five lump comp when it obv isn't. He seems a very nice and straight forward guy and is forever saying how much he has the poker players at heart when he does stuff like coming up with ridic good structures (he played some WSOP events this year, think he made a final, so I guess he should understand our needs).

Btw I think the OP was more to draw the attention of the players to the fact that the poor ole dealers didn't get a tip, just their wages....dry em. Not only do I think expecting tipping is completely wrong, I played down the Palm Beach two weeks ago and haven't seen such a poor standard or dealing for years, misdeals (one guy managed two in a row and on the third tried to put the blinds up lol), not collecting antes, missing action, dealing flops before the bb checks, not tapping the table before dealing a flop so we could stop mistakes....the only tip I'd give their dealers is watch how the GUKPT and EPT guys deal and learn

I don't disagree with you, Jeff. Yet, if they're taking £35k for 'the dealers' and the dealers aren't even getting any of it, that's still not right.

  The quotes attributed to me in this post have no foundation in fact whatsoever. The OP can by all means contact me personally to discuss.

  I am the person responsible for this event, including the WPT and Bellagio team contracts. The Bellagio team were responsible for 15 % attendance of the Field travelling from the US including P Ivey. No one can argue the attendances and cash action were less the disappointing, creating a significant loss to the Palm Beach. The Partouche event in Cannes had a big impact on the numbers. The buy in in Cannes was EU 8500 with EU 1500 taken in juice per player.

 Lessons will be taken from this event, I made no agreements with any of my staff regarding deductions. For the benefit of any doubt this weekend the EPO buy in is £3.5k with £250 taken in fees, no other deductions.

can you adress the real issues that concern players like hidden juice, misappropiration of funds etc etc

that would be the type of response we are looking for, not the above

I have e-Mailed you Simon.

So basically you were giving the players a bargain by ripping them off less than competitors.

Well, it takes two seconds to go to the Hendon Mob and find it is a  € 7,750 + 750 No Limit Hold'em - Main Event   
€3,000,000 Guaranteed.... http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/festival.php?a=r&n=7534

Besides, that's by the by. The fact is that an event is advertised as £5,000 + £300 had an additional £200 per player come out of the prizepool on top. On http://www.worldpokertour.com/Shared/Tournaments/Seasons/Season_9/WPT_London_Poker_Classic.aspx they mention the prizepool deductions in the £250 rebuy and the £15k high roller (£600 per player is pretty ridic given that the EPT High Roller in Monte Carlo had a €25k buyin but only €500 juice despite a field size over 5 times bigger than London) but there is no mention of the main event.

Am I right in thinking the WPT was sold for 1p recently with huge debt,if so I wonder why!!!!!

Glad i swerved the WPT last week now and played the £60 f/o at Luton instead.

Please can you read your post over again, and put urself in the position of someone who feels s if they've been ripped off, and think how you would react.

Sorry, but very poor response

Simon tompsett please put a proper reply on this thread. Yours is a complete joke

I'd rather have posted sober than drunk but meh,it was the typical response from someone trying to cover there own arse after they screwed up,this is an absolute joke and if I was the person who'd run this comp I'd be thoroughly ashamed of myself,the £200 taking from each player that wasn't made aware to players pre comp is an absolute disgrace and to try and use another tournaments fees(that I believe where openly portrayed) is pathetic.I'd be very surprised if there was a further official response to this as there is no defending it.

There's a £10k heads up at the Empire this month and I'm hoping to get some non locals to play it so any chance any of u English players, let's call u mugs for ease of use, can stump up say £100 each to get some of our foreign friends over to play too?

Also, I think there's a chance if u all stump up another £100 I can get the best player in the world to come and probably win it too. Sure Mr Ivey is well chuffed that his name is being used as one of the reasons why the WPT field all had £200 taken out of their entry without their consent.

They did, i actually did tip..  maybe i shouldnt have but its not the actual dealers fault.

The whole thing was a complete rip off ! The juice was rediculous ! Jeff is right though they do think the english are complete mugs where else in the world would they charge poker players 4 quid for a cup of tea and 15 quid for the players buffet ? Like I said the whole thing was a complete piss take imo.

As was said yesterday, no point getting angry now, just vote with your feet. I played down the Empire last night, they had 5 1k seats added plus they didn't charge any juice on their £100fo....organisation wasn't great but u can't complain at that given the lack of value for money provided by the event last week at the Palm Beach

As one of the dealers who has become aware of this from reading the OP, I contacted Simon Thompsett, who seemed very reluctant to take this matter seriously.

I have since spoken to other dealers about this and some have taken the opinion, on advice, that this may actually be a police matter.

Whilst I think it is too early for this, if the matter is not addressed correctly I think I may agree with other dissenters, as it seems Palm Beach have not invited dealers back further infuriating the matter in attempt to cover themselves.

Maybe I could take this chance to remind Mr Thompsett of the old saying 'The webs we weave when first we wish to deceive.'

If you want a reply from Matt Savage, post on 2+2.

Or tweet him at @SavagePoker, he's really good at replying.

I'm willing to wait a short while, but I'm not depending on the vagaries of internet networking to settle a legal situation. I freelance my services through my limited company, and if the situation remains as it is, then I shall pursue the case in the same manner as I would with any other work related payments.

I was also scheduled for other work at Palm Beach, and had been for over 4 weeks prior meaning I have turned down other work for the scheduled period, and that job doesn't seem to have been honoured due to the matter, so it is even more important now that this is resolved.

  Apologies for late response. For the benefit of any doubt all registration fees and prize fund deductions for both the main event and high roller events have been clearly advertised on the WPT website.

 Main Event £300 fee + 4% prize fund deduction. At no time has there been any attempt to hide this fact. Intervention by the police would be most welcome. The Gambling Commission have been contacted in this matter.

With regard to agency dealers, they were contracted through Prestige. All terms and conditions were emailed to to each dealer prior to commencement. Any agency dealer with a grievance should contact Prestige directly, who will reaffirm terms and conditions.

Any player or dealer who wishes to contact me to discuss may do so. I will not take any telephone enquiries, as I cannot be sure of whom I am dealing with. Anynonmous allegations will not be answered.

another excellent reponse

gl with this event next year

I think you were meant to put some more *****'s so you could hide the extra juice even further down the bottom of the page.



Fancy discussing the 10% witheld for staff from the rebuy event?


Any chance of transparency on where you spunked all this money?

Go on Mr Tomsett, i dare you to tell the truth.

Something like this i imagine? We had grand ideas and someone said they could get IVey to come for 30k, so we paid them, we needed to get that back so we thought we'd take it out of the prize pool, obviously we couldn't tell the players to give us £200 each for this reason so we said it was for the dealers. It worked out sweet as, oh wait, someone's rumbled us.....

What a complete fukup, not helped by the fact they get away with the whole thing because it was printed on some website in tiny letters that no one noticed before the fleecing took place.

Just because everything is done above the law does not make is right or the correct thing to do.

lol so much at bringing in 'Star' poker players and charging normal punters the cost to what play against them? or ask for an autograph?

So if something is clearly advertised, and an entire community of people (convieniantly you're customers) don't see it, is it actually clearly advertised? I mean surely we define clearly by how clear it is = how many people actually saw it?

if this is the case, then it probably wasn't clear, in that situation you've heavily mis-represented, you may not have done it deliberately, but still I think its a point where the field deserve an apology as people stumped up £5300 without knowing exactly what they were getting for it.

Well that's good to hear. Seems he wants the police to look into it, so there must be something dodgy going on. So what is your definition of 'Poker Room Staff'?

Easiest way to deal with this is a simple small claims court action and Mr Tomsett can stand in court with the evidence (and yes it will be you standing alone in court) then we can see which newspaper would like the article headline 'Top Posh Casino in £35k tip scandal!.

The Gambling Commission is interested and are urging anyone to come forward with details so that they can correlate the complaints and launch a full investigation. They will take action prior or subsequent to any court action so a small claims will not effect them investigating. They did seem to be aware of some serious aspects to this case that I highlighted, which they would like to look into further.

If you are a dealer or a player who would like further advice on how to structure the small claims application then please PM me.

Simon Tomsett has clearly identified himself as being fully responsible on behalf of The Palm Beach as its' Poker Manager, so this action does not involve Prestige People or Fox's. If you work with either of these companies you are still able to take direct action without implicating either of these companies who supplied staff in good faith.

Subject to evidence supplied at the small claims court police involvement will follow.

My press contacts have stated they will take an active interest as soon as the first application is made at the courts.

It seems to me that both the WPT, who I have left telephone messages with, and Simon Tomsett are both determined to bring the Palm Beach and the WPT into disrepute over this matter. I only hope that Genting is reassessing the wisdom of employing Mr Tomsett and the potential damage that he seems to be determined to wreak.

out of interest what is a 'prize fund deduction' defined as?

Hope your dealing is better than your understanding of contract law.

Doesn't need to be, as an entertainment company, my solicitor deals exclusively with the entertainment business and all that involves in relation to complex payment schedules. I'm not just a dealer as those involved in this will soon learn to their detriment.

If you're not involved I would keep your trite and incorrect comments to yourself, unless you have a vested interest in protecting those breaking the law or have all the facts, to which I would ask how you obtained them.

Did the dealers' contract state they would be receiving a proportion of the extra £200 juice? If so, it's clearly breach of contract. If not, it's clearly not.

Question I think most people reading this thread are asking is, what actually happened to the 35k extra taken off? Who did it go to? If players were under the impression it was instead of a tip for the dealers, then there was clearly some very bad communication going on.

But surely the contracts are not with Mr Tomsett?

Hmmmm... in fact it looks like this is not true.

I'm looking at the website http://www.worldpokertour.com/Shared/Tournaments/Seasons/Season_9/WPT_London_Poker_Classic.aspx and this event was NOT marked with a **, so therefore it was not advertised as having a 4% deduction.

Simon Tomsett's two responses on here are utterly awful obviously. They are terribly written which means it is not 100% clear what he is actually trying to say. But what he appears to be saying looks pretty bad of course, especially the implication that the extra £200 was to pay some guys for getting Phil Ivey to grace us with his presence. It's weird that Simon took ages to write his second post, then totally ignored most of the points that have been made on this thread.

Descartes seems to be doing a lot of posturing and threat-making; his tone comes across as, at best, rather silly. I presume he is Darcus on the associated 2+2 thread, wanting to know when Matt Savage is next flying into the UK so he can "notify the relevant authorities"! And all this stuff like "I'm not just a dealer as those involved in this will soon learn to their detriment"... Come on man, you're embarrassing yourself. It's cringeworthy, and it makes everyone reading it less likely to take your actual grievances seriously.

However, it certainly looks like there is a case to answer here on several different levels. Obviously there are two different grievances here. The first is the one that Descartes is mostly concerned with - why did the dealers not get their share of the 4% deduction? The second grievance is over the fact that the 4% was deducted in the first place, especially as it was not clearly advertised to the players beforehand. And of course these two grievances merge together... because I guess a lot of players would be pretty annoyed about a hidden extra deduction, but they might grudgingly put up with it if it is going to the people who dealt to them for the duration. But when it turns out that these dealers did not in fact get any of this deduction and instead it mostly went to some random guys from the USA....

2+2 link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/65/mttc-live/discuss-wpt-details-executive-tournament-director-matt-savage-831192/index2.html

Excellent post Numpty :)up

It seems the WPT have stated they had nothing to do with the money and that they only had one representative at the event. They clearly state the running of the tournament was the responsibility of the Palm Beach Casino and therefore Mr Tomsett.

The issues are very clear, either the money was taken for the poker room staff or it wasn't. The asterisk issue is a mute point, being that the 2 asterisks for the main event have been incorporated into the 3 asterisks as 4% was clearly taken from the prizepool in both tournaments.

So it's either theft or fraud. Either it's owed to the floor staff or owed to the players. The Gambling Commission are eager to launch an investigation as they have already been contacted by other involved parties and they clearly stated to me further issues they are concerned with.

Obviously most poker players will take the fact they've been mugged for £200 on the chin, the money probably doesn't matter too much to them, which is why they probably got mugged in the first place. The fact that this sends out the message that affluent poker players are easy targets for small scams or that people, companies and casinos can easily nip them whenever possible shouldn't be of any concern then.

Fortunately, the small claims court makes it very easy for people to contest small amounts and allows a public audience to the conduct of larger companies.

From my perspective, having already been denied work by Simon Tomsett for merely politely enquiring about the matter, I see no reason why I shouldn't make a claim. I haven't nothing to risk and have been advised that I have a strong case. Why a company or an individual would think that it's low paid workers are less inclined to expect fair treatment or less inclined to seek legal recourse to disputed monies is a mystery. They are exactly the people who will fight hardest for monies that others feel is inconsequential and are more concerned about who takes their hard earned money away from them.

Mr Tomsett can be rest assured that once the threatening and posturing ceases, then the real problems will start.

As for looking silly? Well, not half as silly as letting someone lift £200 out of my pocket whilst I say 'Yeah sure help yourself'.



 

zomg

I thought you were going after him personally not the company?

Public audience? Have you ever done anything through the small claims court?

I have no interest in the actual argument, the fact a couple of people I respect on here say there is an issue means I believe there is.

However your posts are only going to hinder anyones chances of getting things sorted as they appear to be well off the mark.

You have misunderstood how the asterisk referencing system works. It does not follow the principle of incorporation, but of uniqueness.

I think it is very clear that the website definitely did not mention a 4% additional prize fund deduction.

username steal?

Apparently so... When I first registered here I actually selected the exact same username as you and for some reason it was accepted. Then a few days later I got a PM from admin saying there was already a user with that name (you obviously) and they had changed my username to NumptyD instead.

NumtpyD......... fight gogogogo

As a dealer myself, I would urge you to go down the theft of money from the player route rather than from the dealers.

Just a quick question for my reasoning...... Do you declare your tips as a taxable income?

i loved this bit too tank, "shock, horror".

But they are comedy gold.

+1.

Post more, please.

Have just looked at the website.

http://www.worldpokertour.com/Shared/Tournaments/Seasons/Season_9/WPT_London_Poker_Classic.aspx

I think that makes it quite clear that there should not be any money taken from the prizepool. The £250r and the £15k high rollers did but there's nothing mentioned for the main except that alternates get a different starting stack. Hardly clearly pointed out on the website as whatever he was called said.

Edit - Noticed the link has already been posted but will leave it here in case anyone missed it first time round.

This has nothing to do with me, I've seen the WPT on the telly like, but that's about it...but anyway though but it's not mute [sic] is it...if an event is marked with three asterisks then by your rationale this £5k event in dispute would have a 14% reduction for poker staff wouldn't it as 1 asterisk = 10% and 2 = 4%.  

I'm summary it is not clear.

The end.

Ha ha it would be awesome if it was incorporation, then not only would alternates get a different stack, Mr Tomsett would get 14% of the prizepool.

Sigh

There is so much that is unsatisfactory about this, & my worry is that it sets a precadent, but to a degree, if players don't object, or query the prize pool, at the time, then it's always going to be unsortable.

I wrote this in a Blog on Day Two......

Hard to see in this pic, but the Plasma shows 169 runners at £5,000 a pop, & a Prize Pool of £811,200. Err how much? The difference - the missing £33,800, is accounted for by a % deduction, about 4% I think, for "Poker room staff". Do I NOT like that! It's standard in the USA, & some European countries, but I hate the thought of it becoming the custom in the UK.

I'm also puzzled by the ability to buy in on Day Two, which I had always assumed the Gaming Commission did not approve of. If they have no objections, as would seem to be the case, then why don't Grosvenor, & DTD etc, allow it, I have to wonder?

I don't have a copy of that photo to hand, but here's a superb example of my photographic skills taken in the room during Day Two. Not to be rude, & not excusing the WPT in any way, shape or form, but surely anyone who can afford to ante up £5,300 ought to be able to work out in a heartbeat that £5k does not divide equally into £820,800, & yet nobody said a word at the time.

I'm equally curious about allowing Alternates into the Comp on Day Two. I don't disapprove of it, not one bit, but Grosvenor, DTD, & afaik all other Casinos in the UK refuse to allow Alternates to buy-in beyond the first 2 or 3 Levels, & I've often been told that is because the GC don't approve of the practice. If nothing else, then, the WPT have shown that to be false, & hopefully the practice can become standard from now on.

May seem silly but I hope the people who are pursuing this seriously have screenshots of Simon Tompsett's posts on here and of the WPT site so that things can't be edited/deleted/amended etc at a later date.

Since the gaming board was replaced by the gambling commission, I thought that all the rules about poker went in the bin?

I'm curious as to why you think day 2 entry is a good idea?  Half the field can go out on day one(s), not sure that allowing ppl to have a look at who's been eliminated, who's chipped up etc, before deciding to play is really fair on day one entrants.

   

can't personally see a problem with that in principle as long as everyone is aware of the cut off for alternates.  would be up to each individual then whether they sign up at the start or prefer to risk joining later with significantly less than average chips and the additional information they would be able to glean before entering.

In truth, I'm not THAT fussed either way, to be honest. But I actually think that players are entitled to the choice though, assuming they have the nous to weigh the pros & cons. I AM more fussed about the whiole idea that we have been told by all UK Venues that Alternates are "illegal" beyond Level 2 or 3, & all of a sudden it's changed - but only at Palm Beach, & for the WPT, afaik. I'd just prefer clarity & consistency on that.

Clarity & consistency on that, & whether Prize Pools can be messed with seems quite important to me. Arguing the toss after the Event is futile, I'd rather everyone knew where they stood for the future. 

Regarding the cut off for alternates: When guideline 3 was the "Law" for cardrooms, it stated that all players must be present on the premises at the start of the tournament. It also said that all players must be entered before the start of the competition. Some venues misinterpreted the "guideline" and said all players must be seated at the start of a tournament. When the gaming board were approached about alternates they said absolutely not.

When guideline 3 disappeared it effectively allowed cardrooms to run it how they wished, as there was now no reference to how it should be run.

It also stated that ALL entry monies MUST be paid out in prizes.

In 2000 a legal bod for grosvenor noticed that an unrelated part of the act said, games of equal chance could take a registration fee of no more than 10% of the entry money with a cap of £50. Hence reg fees. Gala then pursued this further and found that for the use of casino equipment the casino could charge a participation fee (uncapped and as frequent as you like ( which was already known as that was more commonly known as session fees). This was then applied to competition play!

The first I can recall was Gala leicester that had a £10 freezeout with a £1 reg fee (10%) and a participation fee of £5 which effectively meant 60% juice on a £10 freezeout.

I digress lol, cardrooms can now charge anything and regarding alternates and late entries it is entirely a "House Rule" it was and is commonly agreed that 3 levels is the accepted norm for late reg and alternates. So you as the punter, should be able to vote where to play with your feet if you feel uncomfortable. In order for you to do this, it should be clearly stated what the House rules are in an accessible for all to read place.

Thanks Rich.

Do DTD have any plans to allow "you may enter at any stage of the Tourney" do you know?

Can't say for 100%, but I believe they are happy with 3 levels. If you do allow alternates on a never ending basis it would be a logistical nightmare.

but but if u didnt allow it Jake Cody wouldnt be WPT Champ!!!!!

Tikay, who specifically from a UK casino has told you it is illegal to accept alternates beyond the first 2 or 3 levels? I simply so not believe that you have been told this by ALL UK venues. It is purely down to each company's policy and has been since the law changed. Grosvenor started accepting them the day the law changed and a set number of levels was determined as a company policy so as to ensure (or try to) consistency at each of its 20+ venues that offered poker. At the time, the policy mirrored that of the most worldwide poker tournaments. It is only relatively recently some major events have started extending the late entry period into day two, or even day three. If it turns out to be a popular trend then I am sure that UK companies/poker organisers will make decisions about whether to follow suit or not, but it is early days. There are plenty of people who don't like this idea and might not wish to play if things were changed to allow it, so its not just a case of players having the right to choose when to enter. There are also logistical issues to consider about whether it is appropriate to allow post day one entries in some venues (staffing, space requirements, capacities for side events, etc).

You are quite correct John, my mistake, I apologise. My earlier comment, same thread, was more accurate, when I said.....

I'm equally curious about allowing Alternates into the Comp on Day Two. I don't disapprove of it, not one bit, but Grosvenor, DTD, & afaik all other Casinos in the UK refuse to allow Alternates to buy-in beyond the first 2 or 3 Levels, & I've often been told that is because the GC don't approve of the practice

I'm quite sure plenty would like the option, & plenty would not, I'm simply curious as to what the actual position is as to that, & deducting money from the Prize Pool.

Maybe not, but you agree that clarity BEFORE the Event makes more sense, & that's my line, too. It goes without saying that it is "highly unlikely" that anybody is going to get their £200 (or whatever) refunded AFTER the fact.

Once we pay the Entry Fee, that's that really, we are stuck with it, like it or not, so I think it makes sense to know in advance. The lesson needs to be learned, & by both parties.

Forgive me if this question has already been answered, but what happened to the £200's?

Seems to have got added to the £300 juice to make £500 which went to the organisers.

Phil Ivey blew it on the craps table.

So basically, they took some money the players didn't know they were taking, on the pretext of doing something with it that they didn't actually do?

Now you are a normal jack the lad with no gukpt responsibilities you can make wise cracks ?

pretty much

Anyone know anything more about this matter? It has all gone quiet on the 2+2 thread as well; Matt Savage posted that he was looking into it... and then nothing. It feels like it is being hushed up.

Rest assured this matter is far from going away.

What a result secured by Darcus!!:

Genting to repay £70,000 to WPT London players & dealers! (http://www.gutshot.com/news)

link doesn't work, please try again

http://www.gutshot.com/news/

Fantastic result, it must be said.

Merging with original thread

Sick merge



Has anyone been sacked for this? Surely someone has to be punished/take the blame for being a thieving lying shit?

Run better Jake

By the way in the email and answerphone message, Genting didn't give actual figures.  But there's nothing to suggest they won't be reimbursing the full amount of £34,400 to the winning players, and the same again to the dealers.

Can anyone tell me, did this issue affect any of the side events, or was the vig there all above board?

2 events including the high roller were clearly advertised as having this deduction for cardroom staff so there's presumably still a fair bit of money floating around that's owed to dealers

I wish I'd realised that descartes was darcus, I would've flamed him if I'd known. glad he's got a result though, he's a good guy

"They discussed with me what my opinion was and I think they are doing the right thing. I chalk it up more to inexperience than malicious intent but it sure is nice to see this."

- Matt Savage, WPT Director, making a quick comment on 2+2  (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=22651288&postcount=113)

Gotta say, despite the mistakes made, when all said and done, you gotta be impressed with the conclusion to this saga.
It seems Genting are making a real effort to get a foothold in the poker market and events like the Players Championship with 10K added and their online offers have certainly got my attention.

I was actually lucky enough to be sponsored into the WPT event in question and gotta say it was the most amazing structure ive ever played in and the organisation and atmosphere at the Palm Beach was excellent imo.

Has the Palm Beach Poker Room Manager lost his job over this?

No. I spoke to him last weekend and he told me he was sorting out the repaying of everyone.

:D

UPDATE!

I have spoken again today with Gentings with regards to the payments being issued. They are trying to sort out some accounting procedures and expect to notify everyone in writing by Friday as to how payments can be received. It is merely an administrative delay and Gentings are still very eager to ensure the matter is fully concluded as soon as possible.

As an aside, whilst Gentings have acted with the utmost integrity and professionalism, it has been brought to my attention that certain other individuals did try to slander me and undermine my character and previous professional conduct. Evidently this failed, but has been noted.


I shall post any further updates should they arise.

Best wishes all

 

Monies have been paid out this week, but the details of how much and how it has been calculated, both for the players and dealers tells a very different story than the one above.
This saga is not concluded and in fact has revealed far more serious breaches higher up the food chain and possibly revealed further monies that seem to have been taken from the players with no justification and no advertising.

I will post a full report at a future date which will show exactly how this matter has been dealt with so players and dealers can decide for themselves.

 ;popcorn;

Cos devvd he isn't involved!

fyp

As I proved at the last DTD deepstack, I can argue in person tyvm.

Correct though, unfortunate that I cant police the interweb on this one.

From the details supplied to me by Mr David Davis, Director of Commercial Operations - London, following a so called investigation, I am led to believe that Gentings have not acted appropriately. As such I shall be submitting evidence to the police within the next week with allegations of theft and fraud.

As relayed to me by Mr Davis, of the £48k taken from players 'in error' only £34k has actually been repaid and a further £8k has 'gone missing' but has not be noticed in the investigation, despite being overseen by Mike Hoskins Managing Director of Security and Compliance and Mr Davis. Of the same amount agreed to be paid to dealers who worked the event I believe that approximately £14k has been paid out legitimately. Having spoken to both agency dealers and Genting dealers there seems to be a chasm of disparity between statements made by Mr Davis and evidential truth.

I have also been made aware that Mr Simon Thomsett attempted to investigate myself in an attempt to discredit my position, hardly the actions of a company 'wishing to do the right thing'.

I believe there is now sufficient evidence to put to the police for theft and fraud and to advise Inland Revenue to conduct their own investigations into the matter.

You can make your own conclusion as to how certain companies in this industry view players loose attitude to their money once the authorities have looked into the matter.

May I also take this opportunity to advise you that despite there being a clear and admitted 'error' in favour of Gentings of at least £48k, Mr Thomsett failed to inform the appropriate managers (as confirmed in writing by Mr Davis) and instead attempted to argue and defend it on a public forum. This is a clear breach of compliance. Whether this breach has been reported, as required by their licence, in Gentings 3 monthly reports to the Gambling Commission is yet to be seen. As far as I am aware, Mr Thomsett is still deemed honest and professional enough to remain as Poker Manager.

Mr Thomsett retaining his position whilst seemingly jeopardising Gentings reputation, failing to comply with internal procedures, breaching Gambling Commission licensing requirements and possibly breaking the law, is a much clearer indication of the position taken by Gentings over this matter.

The poker industry still operates in grey areas and there seems to be an increase recently in disputes of a similar nature as in the case of The Empire casinos Bad Beat Jackpot and in other areas such as the current Betfair incident.

If you don't wish to be the mug in a mugging, then less complacency and more diligence will help us all to ensure integrity within the game we all love.

'The devil triumphs when good people do nothing'