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***** Hand History for Game 3227815385 *****

$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, December 19, 12:57:41 EDT 2005
Table Table  68511 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button

Seat 1: mrpaulppp ( $491.60 )
Seat 2: PMilanov ( $404.30 )
Seat 6: yoivan ( $111.90 )
Seat 8: snoopy1239 ( $356 )
Seat 9: MadRasputin ( $351.50 )
Seat 5: Perfect_ ( $143.56 )
Seat 7: Gut_Dam_U ( $290.20 )
Seat 10: Silky_DC ( $76 )
Seat 3: hardman7 ( $385.40 )
Seat 4: amcawker1 ( $160 )
yoivan posts small blind [$2].
Gut_Dam_U posts big blind [$4].
amcawker1 posts big blind [$4].

Dealt to snoopy1239 [  3s 4s ]

snoopy1239 raises [$15].
MadRasputin calls [$15].
Silky_DC folds.
mrpaulppp calls [$15].
PMilanov folds.
hardman7 folds.
amcawker1 folds.
Perfect_ folds.
yoivan folds.
Gut_Dam_U folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, 4h, 6d ]


This hand hurt me big time cos I was so so sure I knew what he was holding.

What would you do on this flop?

check and see what the others do. 

The way I would look at is that you only have a pair of fours really.   Everyone has the pair of 6's and you'd be behind any pocket pair, a 6 or a 4 with a better kicker.  Also there is a flush draw potentially for someone.

Ok here's my view for what it's worth..........

To my mind you need to think back to why you were playing the hand originally?

Surely it was to hit a straight or a flush rather than a very modest pair?

There is a small argument for a feeler bet here but I think you'll just get called again by at least one of the others. An important factor to me here is that there's still two others left in after the flop, against one player  I'd be more confident that my hand, which could well be winning, would hold up.

I doubt you're up against a huge pocket pair else you'd probably have been reraised preflop?   But you could still be up against 7's or 8's though.

Even best case scenario for the current situation would say you're probably up against 4 over cards....and maybe a flush draw too.

Doesn't look good to me and I'd figure I was going to get outdrawn here so it's a check for me too.

Whether I bet or not depends on my opponents here. If you get called, it's bad news. Out of position and only 2 cards can help your hand. Pretty much end of pot for you. (unless you get one caller and an ace or heart hits the turn, in which case another bet would have value to get them off a middle pair.)
I think a continuation bet of half the pot still has value only if opponents are passive.

I think it depends on your opponents too.

If you think they can fold overcards, then it might be worth betting out to see if they have pairs. Then you can easily check later on when they call.

I really don't like the paired board, as it means that if you get a call, hitting the 2nd pair won't help.

I'd probably check this and let it go if someone bet. If they both check, then you can safely say they have overcards. Therefore, if the next card is a rag, you might be able to take it with your small pair.

The bugger of this situation is that if you've got the type of opponents that you can't bet into here, they're also the guys who will bet their overcards at you and you'll have to lay down.
When a pot's over it's over.

Bet once, representing the big pair that they think you raised with preflop. If you get called, you're done.

i agree

This is what happened next.


***** Hand History for Game 3227815385 *****

$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, December 19, 12:57:41 EDT 2005
Table Table  68511 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button

Seat 1: mrpaulppp ( $491.60 )
Seat 2: PMilanov ( $404.30 )
Seat 6: yoivan ( $111.90 )
Seat 8: snoopy1239 ( $356 )
Seat 9: MadRasputin ( $351.50 )
Seat 5: Perfect_ ( $143.56 )
Seat 7: Gut_Dam_U ( $290.20 )
Seat 10: Silky_DC ( $76 )
Seat 3: hardman7 ( $385.40 )
Seat 4: amcawker1 ( $160 )
yoivan posts small blind [$2].
Gut_Dam_U posts big blind [$4].
amcawker1 posts big blind [$4].

Dealt to snoopy1239 [  3s 4s ]

snoopy1239 raises [$15].
MadRasputin calls [$15].
Silky_DC folds.
mrpaulppp calls [$15].
PMilanov folds.
hardman7 folds.
amcawker1 folds.
Perfect_ folds.
yoivan folds.
Gut_Dam_U folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, 4h, 6d ]

snoopy1239 bets [$30].
MadRasputin calls [$30].
mrpaulppp folds.

** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]


Hehe, it's a tempter. What should I do now?

Suddenly, it all became clear.

He was a fish.

you are in all sorts of bother

two flush draws out and several of those flush cards counterfiet a straight if it comes for you

I suppose I bet again...you putting him on a 6 or a draw?  if he calls, the draw, if he raises, the overpair or the 6

If he's calling so far, I would probably assume he has either a flush or trips.  Trouble is you've put in a nice amount to lose.  I'd check the turn and see what happens.

Its like the problems in Harringtons Holdem  book :D

Check, because I have no answers, just questions....

Overpair?
Flush draw?
Suited connectors, including a 6?
44?
What does he think I have?
Am I going to bluff if a flush card comes?
Why the hell did I raise UTG with 4 high?

I think the chance of losing any additional money going into the pot is greater than my winning chances. If I'm bluffed off the best hand then so be it.

How did you manage to narrow down his hand range when all he has done is call?

check raise it will scare the hell out of him.

no honestly i dont know anymore its a horrible board i would put a bet in. if hes got a good hand he will probably reraise you after that turn unless he is very strong and not scared of a flush or a straight. he might just call if he has 44 or 66 and then you are in all sorts of crap. hope it was a happy ending mate

I said before that the turn would need to complete a flush or bring an ace to tempt me into betting again as a value bluff. This turn is not one I'll bluff at.

There are so many draws on the board that he is likely to either have one or put you on one. I don't think he's likely to lay anything down here that he's already called two bets with. It's time to give up the hand. Check and Fold.

(You're going to say he checked behind you and the river brought you a 4 and you lost loads of money as you didn't put him on a 6 is my prediction)

I really get myself into trouble sometimes. Here's what happened next.

***** Hand History for Game 3227815385 *****

$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, December 19, 12:57:41 EDT 2005
Table Table  68511 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button

Seat 1: mrpaulppp ( $491.60 )
Seat 2: PMilanov ( $404.30 )
Seat 6: yoivan ( $111.90 )
Seat 8: snoopy1239 ( $356 )
Seat 9: MadRasputin ( $351.50 )
Seat 5: Perfect_ ( $143.56 )
Seat 7: Gut_Dam_U ( $290.20 )
Seat 10: Silky_DC ( $76 )
Seat 3: hardman7 ( $385.40 )
Seat 4: amcawker1 ( $160 )
yoivan posts small blind [$2].
Gut_Dam_U posts big blind [$4].
amcawker1 posts big blind [$4].

Dealt to snoopy1239 [  3s 4s ]

snoopy1239 raises [$15].
MadRasputin calls [$15].
Silky_DC folds.
mrpaulppp calls [$15].
PMilanov folds.
hardman7 folds.
amcawker1 folds.
Perfect_ folds.
yoivan folds.
Gut_Dam_U folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, 4h, 6d ]

snoopy1239 bets [$30].
MadRasputin calls [$30].
mrpaulppp folds.

** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]

snoopy1239 checks.
MadRasputin bets [$50].
snoopy1239 calls [$50].

** Dealing River ** [ Ac ]


I really shouldn't have called this, but I was sure he had an overpair like tens or something and thought I could get paid if I hit a 4, 2, or 7. I was pretty sure he didn't have trips or a full house, and I didn't think he could have just overcards at this point. Anyway, I'm defending my bad play now, but, considering the turn of events here, should I just give up this hand?

don't tell me you bet again?
 rotflmfao


check fold

rotflmfao rotflmfao

My first thought was to give up the hand and not throw good money after bad.

After a wee think, I think a decent stop-bluff bet of around $100 would have value here. He could easily have been on a missed draw.
The $100 bet might also get him to pass a hand better than your own such as a middle pair.

The call on the turn was god-awful but a (self-weighted) bet on the river would not be.

Sorry if I'm being thick, but what does 'self-weighted' mean in this context?  I thought I understood it in a pre-flop context where you want to be non-self-weighting i.e. bet more on good hands and less on junk, but I don't understand what it means here.

By self-weight I meant judging what to do by the situation you find yourself in only and not on the action that has gone before. What has already been put into the pot doesn't matter, it's no longer your money.

Quick example,
You raise to 500 pre flop and someone goes all-in for 1500. You'd need to call 1000 chips to win a 3000 pot. You feel that you are 40% to win it. You've put 1500 chips into the pot when you are a 40% dog so it could be viewed by some as a bad play. When you self-weight whether to call the 1000 or not though, it's the right play.

Thanks. I haven't seen self-weighting' used in that context before. In your example I would call the initial 500 a 'sunk cost' and as such is irrelevant to the decision facing you now, i.e. whether to call the 1000. Same thought process, different terminology.

Thought I'd give you guys a chuckle. This is how it all panned out.


***** Hand History for Game 3227815385 *****

$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, December 19, 12:57:41 EDT 2005
Table Table  68511 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button

Seat 1: mrpaulppp ( $491.60 )
Seat 2: PMilanov ( $404.30 )
Seat 6: yoivan ( $111.90 )
Seat 8: snoopy1239 ( $356 )
Seat 9: MadRasputin ( $351.50 )
Seat 5: Perfect_ ( $143.56 )
Seat 7: Gut_Dam_U ( $290.20 )
Seat 10: Silky_DC ( $76 )
Seat 3: hardman7 ( $385.40 )
Seat 4: amcawker1 ( $160 )
yoivan posts small blind [$2].
Gut_Dam_U posts big blind [$4].
amcawker1 posts big blind [$4].

Dealt to snoopy1239 [  3s 4s ]

snoopy1239 raises [$15].
MadRasputin calls [$15].
Silky_DC folds.
mrpaulppp calls [$15].
PMilanov folds.
hardman7 folds.
amcawker1 folds.
Perfect_ folds.
yoivan folds.
Gut_Dam_U folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, 4h, 6d ]

snoopy1239 bets [$30].
MadRasputin calls [$30].
mrpaulppp folds.

** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]

snoopy1239 checks.
MadRasputin bets [$50].
snoopy1239 calls [$50].

** Dealing River ** [ Ac ]

snoopy1239 is all-In.
MadRasputin is all-In.

snoopy1239 shows [ 3s, 4s ] two pairs, sixes and fours.
MadRasputin shows [ Qd, As ] two pairs, aces and sixes.

snoopy1239 wins $4.50 from  side pot #1  with two pairs, sixes and fours.

MadRasputin wins $725 from  the main pot  with two pairs, aces and sixes.


This is how not to play a hand

Oh dear.

Oh, eh....erm.....hmmmm.

Brave post.

OK i'll do it:

 ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish; ;fish;

That said cheers for posting it for us snoops.

I am forming my defense as we speak.

You wanted to buy us all a winter giggle?

Awww, thanks snoops, you're the best :)up

Defence?

A real Villa fan!

If you look carefully, I did win a side-pot.

 ;applause; :respect: ;applause;

More holes in this than Boumsong's legs. :D

Don't you mean Anthony Gardners legs :(

I uploaded this hand as I am always intrigued by the hands that, after a post-mortem, I would play completely differently.

In this instance, I probably wouldn't have raised preflop with 4s3s as I'd raised quite a few hands that session, and sticking chips in again with this one was probably going too far.

I'm not even that keen on my bet on the flop. There is no ace, no real scare cards, plus there is a flush and straight draw on board. How many times would I get 2 people to fold on that flop? Especially online. Also, by flatcalling preflop, they could very easily have an overpair, and there would be no way I'd push them off that type of holding.

Yes, when the turn came, it gave me outs, ones which would probably win me the hand, but they still have to arrive. I think I'd still check here though. By this time, I put my opponent on the overpair and assumed he wouldn't fold to a bet.

Why I called the $50 I'm not too sure. It's way too expensive for the type of draw I'm looking for. Plus there's a flush draw on board, one which could counterfeit 2 of my outs. And who's to say he won't have the higher straight if I hit the ignorant end. Or even a full house? Guess I was being a bit too hopeful here.

When the river came, I moved all-in because I was sure he had a hand like pocket eights or something. I have a tendency to go on instinct. If I think I know what someone has, I act upon that. In this game, I don't think you should back down when you make your evaluation on a hand, be it proved right or wrong.

On this occasion, however, I was totally wrong. I really didn't think he'd call my bet on the flop with overcards and then bluff the turn. Big mistake on my part. I was sure that the ace was a scarecard for his pocket pair.

Ah well, that's the way it goes sometimes, but I thought this would be an interesting hand.

Thx for the feedback chaps.

Good post Snoops.