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Sweat thread for England games only

Nice idea. At first I was hating our chances and told myself I wasn't bothered. As soon as I woke up this morning I donned my new England top and have been feeling patriotic all day with an intense feeling that we can do it this time around.

Naivety ftw!

1-1 today #justanotherdeludedEnglandfan #moraleisobvhigh!

great ad with gazza there got the tears brewing

So much less nervous than normal going into this. A mixture of low expectations and having been through the disappoinment so many times.

Have said that, come on England!

Yiv got nae chance

Just as I start getting all patriotic and up for it they have to go and show a close up of John Terry don't they?

Get ti fuck yi wee dobber (i am assuming you are Scottish)


Lets dooooooooooooooooo this. I would not wanna meet Ribery in a well lit alley let alone a dark one.

Come on England, put these Froggies to bed

Andy Townsend says Ashley Young needs to be "clever, crafty and cunning"; perhaps they should have picked Ruel Fox.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. He should not be missing that!

Oxlaide Chamberlain so impressive. His vision for a 19 year old is just amazing (and I dont think Iv ever said ANYTHING good about an arsenal player)

Yea Chamberlain and Young are our only hope really.

Not a bad start!?

Yessssssssssssssss

Get innnnnn! Awesome freekick

Geeeeeeeeeet iiiiiiiiiiiiiin Lescott you ugly son of a gun.

Balls

gerard parker far to slow to close down there

ox has to come of at half time for me

reminded me of becks

Andy townsend is a terrible commentator/colour man - just drivel - id sooner have saint and greavsie !

agreed

Ox is a huge liability, he gives the ball away far too often and isn't good defensively.. He's on a yellow free stupid free kick putting us in potential trouble and could easily go.

Evrabis terrible yet we play the least attackIng right winer in the competition????

Walcott on and Milner to the left. Gerrard started well but becke wasteful.. Parker isn't bent clOse to being fit. Back four look great. Welbeck doing good and is a threat.. Young needs to get into game but that's partly down to Gerrard and Parker.

France look ok but not a huge threat. Hopefully hart doesn't get beat from 20 yards again he's probably saved 10,000 of them in training before.

Cabaye is terrible and we should look to exploit him he's an absolute shoe in for a yellow card

Could have been off with a harsh ref. First one was a blatant trip, second one should have been a booking if the first wasnt

Started well enoguh but once they went a goal up they played as though they couldn't quite believe it and were way too deep.  I would be inclined to keep Ox-Chamberlain on though.  Passing in final third is dreadful though and that doesn't help a player with his pace.

agree with most of that tbh

nasri been best player on the pitch by a mile so far imo

watched goal again parker and gerard both followed ribery fro some reason , they already looked tired cant see them both lasting the game in there

if anything id get downing and walcott on move milner into the middle and take parker off

i hope for newcastles sake they have already tied up a deal for the right back as the fee will be double by the end of this tournament

I'd take 1-1 or try and nick something off. Set piece. We red to get in their half.. I'd take ox off young on he left and Carroll up top who can do goo on both boxes

Is this a training session I'm watching?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 Ref is a joke

I am not laughing, in fact I am effing and blinding at the twat!

Clinging on. Will take the point TYVM!

better than i expected

both sides seemed happy enough with the point after 75 minutes

hodgson obviously been working very hard very very well drilled at the back

johnson/parker mom

welbeck/young pretty useless. defoe looked hungry!

This England team are going to be very, very hard to beat.  Unfortunately it is also going to be very, very hard for them to beat anyone else.  Would like to see defoe given the start after that though.

they held the line so well, very impressed

parker was everywhere, so, so much better than having lampard in there

By far the worst atmosphere of the tournament so far, reminded me of watching the Ajax Tournament when Ajax weren't playing.

Parker tries so so hard. Often it's just because he isn't very good so has to work to make up for it.

Decent performance and good result though.

Pretty happy with that. Worked hard and well organised against a more talented team.

the Ukrainian authorities banned the England band, despite UEFA agreeing to them attending beforehand

Very few French there either

Yeah I heard that.
The Ukranians have scored a major own goal by the prices they were charging for Hotels and such.We seem to have two seperate tournaments on the go as Poland has had great crowds, atmosphere at nearly every game has been good and even the games have been more entertaining so far.
Having said that I would have expected Engand to have taken a few thousand more, the French have never really travelled in numbers.

Not sure there is the money about these days to go that far, for the usual numbers of travelling fans, especially with expectations of our performance so low

Anyone else think they just watched a friendly?

More a reflection on France than us, though. We were always going to be happy with a point. Anyone that backed France to win this comp must be sweating.

Harry might be right about us having the best defence in the tournament.

As I've already included FAR too many quotes for a month's time to be used against me, I'd best add some anti-mockers (mocker-bets for value?):

That Defoe will never get a hat trick in this comp;
What a terrible selection Henderson was;
We always struggle against Sweden

There. That should even it up.

They have had plenty time to save up for it and I don't agree with the second point as it's not as if the Irish fans expect to get out their Group.Their is 20k in Poland and would have been 10k in Ukraine.

the hotel prices in donetsk are more down to uefa than the ukrainians. there aren't a huge number of hotels in the city, it doesn't get tourists, and a very large % of what there is were booked by uefa well over a year ago. this is why the campsite outside the city was constructed

Is that just plucked out the air? Surely nothing to base it on?
Other factors - It's only 2 years since South Africa. It's 10 years since Ireland went to a tournament.
Despite lower expectations our expectations are still higher than Ireland's. It is easier to plan to go to a tournament when you know you will be coming back. England numbers will increase as each game goes by as if fans can only afford a finite number of games/days out there then people want to be there at the business end of things.
A lot of England fans follow their clubs too so have tickets and travel to pay for throughout the season. Most Ireland fans just have to buy a Liverpool or Man U shirt don't they?
Not denying it's poor numbers but it'll grow and there are plenty of reasons for Ireland taking more than us to not be a shock.

Played against 14 men all game, then we bring Henderson on so we were down to 10 men - good result those points considered.

Wasn't impressed with Welbeck either.

Would've taken a draw beforehand though so happy enough.

Don't understand te welbeck stick. He ran his bollocks off and got no service whatsoever.

Also Parker and Gerrard far too deep they new to get off Terry's toes, France had no presence in the box and being so deep really hindered us going forward.

Vvv impressed with Johnson.

i am not a wellbeck fan but thought he was superb tbh

ran the lines well worked hard kept the ball well always available not sure what else you want from a striker playing for a team with 35% possesion

never have and never will have defoe at this level his all around game is nowere near good enough

Happy with the point
Expecatations still low
2nd world class player to return in 1 more game
Not saying anything else

Agree although he looked sharp today tbf

I thought the signs were that our back 4 with Gerrard and Parker holding in front would probably make us pretty solid

That's a good base to work from, then its a question of getting combinations up top right. That will come. Thought Welbeck was fine, Milner should have scored from the Young through ball too. Ox was quiet, but we know he'll come good for 2014-16 majors

If we could keep possession better, then we can take the pressure off. Thats an issue of technique and patience.

As a measure of how well we defended

http://fourfourtwo.com/statszone/share.aspx?i=08JFS

Benzema only received one pass in the penalty area all game

Yeah but by then Junior Hoilett will be eligible for England!!!!! ;-)

Going to Borussia this summer, right?

My point is whatever Ox does in these Championships is a bonus, he'll be the real deal in 2-4 years time

They don't know yet.  The preference at the end of the season was to stay in England but Germany suits well because the younger son is at Mainz.

Right selection, right tactics, right result.

I'm not a Gerard fan - he could have made life much more difficult for Nasri by standing up even a couple of paces off where he should have been. Diving out of the way was definitiely the least effective thing to do. Not many obvious replacements for him unfortunately

Would like to see Defoe and Walcott with more game time

Hope we're good enough to get a win and a draw at least from the next 2 and hope France play too their potential more in their next 2 games

sweden looked useless as i predicted, no pace in whole side.

pleaaseeee play two upfront v them :)

Touched a nerve here.
I'd be pretty certain if Ireland meet England in the quarter finals in Ukraine (big if as both look like going home early) then Ireland would have more fans, not bad for a Country with a population of 1/10 of Englands.That is with Englands 5k Hardcore already based there.
1 Trip for an Irish Man U/Liverpool fan to a Home game would pay for a Season Ticket and a few away Games for your Scunthorpe/Stockport fans so that arguement doesn't hold.
Football isn't even the countrys most popular Sport.
Even Sweden had far bigger numbers tonight than England.

Hart out now??

because hell freezing over would bring the english rail network to a standstill and we wouldn't be able to get to the airports

Really haven't touched a nerve. Not something that bothers me. I'm not at the game so I'm not bothered who else is. Just think that people make out Ireland fans have made some super human effort that nobody else is possible of.
Wondered if the 10k in Ukraine was just a number plucked from the air or if it was based on something like number of tickets purchased before groups were drawn.
I'd be pretty certain that if Ireland went to a tournament more than once every 10 years there numbers would decrease.
I'm not saying it's not a brilliant effort but 30,000 people turned up to see the olympic torch in Cheltenham because it was a once in a lifetime event. It's going to sound arrogant but England have been to a lot more tournaments recently and are probably shorter odds to qualify for the next few.
South Africa, Ukraine, Brazil will test a few wallets.
Not sure the Ireland Man U/Liverpool fans = Lower league England fans thing stacks up either. I think England beat Ireland in "£ per fan spent on football by fans attending major tournaments in last 10 years" but no way of finding out.

You can't use a tournament that happened 10 years ago as an excuse and remember they consistently take massive numbers to qualifiers.
The fact you fail to recoqnise is that England population-55m Ireland 5, more than ten times.
One excuse I can offer you is that im sure Rte didn't show a scaremongering programme like panarama did which must have taken a couple of thousand off those swithering to go or not.
Tho the English seem to have an agenda against Fifa because they didn't get their World Cup bid.
Winging Poms as the Aussies would say.

Agree with Snowball here on the numbers, the Irish blatantly have the support of the tourney so far other than the home nations, ainec, and it was the same in Korea imo, but the "touched a nerve" "whinging poms" "agenda against Fifa" stuff all sounds a bit bitter tbh.

FWIW it's nothing to do with England not winning the bid, it's the nations that did win. I'm pretty sure there's not a footballing nation in the world that think Qatar is a good host-nation choice, other than Qatar that is. It's pretty unanimous racism/violence are not uncommon in Poland/Ukraine (the Dutch had abuse in a training session ffs - Russian fans seriously injured 4 Ukrainian stewards, we've not even played half of round 1 yet... I won't even go into the whole former PM, political prisoner, human rights issues) and this therefore brings that decision into question. Don't even get me started on Russia. It's the most bent country in the world right now.

But then of course it's easier to just take swipe at the whinging English.

No doubting they have the best support of the tournament in quality and in numbers. I appreciate the difference in population but still think the host nation was a bigger factor than you made out.

Snowball said that England fans have had a long time to save up for it. Ireland have had 5 times longer. Personally feel he's got this the wrong way round as I think fans whack these on their credit cards and then work to pay it off.
Football fans in general aren't balling out of control. Think it's perfectly valid that if this is the first tournament you've gone to in 10 years you're more likely to be able to afford it than if you went to South Africa 2 years ago. That's not taking into account factors like family and work - again much easier to do less frequently.

Oh and we took shit loads of fans to Euro 96.

Was impressed today by england i thought france were gonna kick us into touch today but a good performance and somthing to build on gota get past though blasted swedes now!

Bump....
C'mon ENGLAND

Atmosphere already better than our last game! Swedish Crowd are up for it

Sky reckon they have over 20k and we have under 5k

Wiiiiiiii

Come on

carroll has been great. this is why he needs to play 90 minutes every game

He needs to play in games where teams have concedded 9 out of their last goals against headers
Next game - Rooney
who with?

Parker first goal and England 2-1 banzai at 330-1. That shot looked in all the way!

parker fucking terrible


gl anyone in world stopping that cross/header

Amazing run and finish.

What a finish.

Great substitution ...........theo Walcott he the man!

young/gerrard terrible today.

front 2 worked out well today - why not play both up top, and have rooney roaming V ukraine?

Are you serious? Gerrard, Johnson and Young would be lucky to get 5 out of 10 in the papers. Parker carried that midfield today.

You must be a gooner!

LOL.

He carries england himself.

 ;applause; ;applause; ;applause;

Roy is one third of the way to genius

Masterful substitution Walcott was

Great Welbeck finish

What on earth we are doing defending so deep at free kicks, dunno. Hart's weakness is not being vocal enough to scream them out.

Need to win the group, we will get punished by Spain if we lose the ball as readily as we did tonight

rofl gerrard and johnson were both great.

Yep thought Johnson was good and our one world class player as well (Cole)

Johnson's covering speed saved us twice

He was though left in 5 yards behind everyone else, before their first goal.

Overall though a much better game than say Terry had, who failed to do the things he is picked for. Organise that defense and defend set pieces


Gerrard was class, agree Young did very little


Lovin all the different opinions!

Yeah Johnson played well, Gerrard not so imo, great cross for the goal obv, could/should have scored himself at the end.
Declined to take 1 in the bollocks for the country again which we got away with this time luckily.

Looking forward to Ukraine, reckon we qualify now, then just Chelsea Spain in the next round.

Johnson looks like the kid who's playing as him on FIFA can't work the controller. He has absolutely no positional sense in a team that needs a disciplined back line.

Then again, he is about our sixth choice right back!

Yeh positionally Johnson wasn't great but then played well when he needed to do something which was a bit weird.

Parker carried nothing. I don't get the love for him. Runs a lot and gives the ball away. Then gets tired and stops running.
Gerrard was good but faded.
Young was pretty poor.

Welbeck's finish was a worldy.

spot on as usual.

if we played wilshire next to gerrard and walcott on the wing we could be frightening

Think Milner not the right man for the right side not enough pace At this level. Losing Barry a blow as good as Gerard was he tired quickly an Parker not good enough IMO but the younger players look good for the future!

If Messi had scored the goal that axel foley did then the worlds media would be going potty! What a finish, what a goal, what spirit. Yeah yeah, what tez defending but so what. Job done

barry is terrible mate, only good next to yaya.

 

              hart

johnson  jones lescott cole


walcott cleverly wilshire rooney

    carroll  wellbeck

obv rooney probably in the middle but carroll and wellbeck are an absolute nightmare for any defence

com the conflicting views in this thread.

I thought Johnson played well in the first game but was poor tonight. Lost the ball a few times when going forwards and was poor positionally all night.

Parker was below average, only good as a blocker, can't keep the ball or make crucial passes. But there is no one else.

Thought Gerrard was good and Carroll really impressive.

Young didn't have one of his better days but would give him another chance as he works well with Rooney.

Thought Gerrard was deec, he did start tiring but that run at the end was incredible. To keep up with Theo and the ox? Not many can do that after 90 mins.

Been saying all season welbeck will start to shine, he's been a nightmare for defences but not really fulfilled his potential. Hopefully this is the start of big things!

Think Parker's generally shit lol. He made some big tackles but other than that he's fkn useless

Johnson was excellent and terrible in equal measure imo.

At fault for the first for playing them onside, out of position on several occasions including free kicks leaving us exposed, and wasn't as big a threat going forward as he can be.

But he also made some fantastic last-ditch tackles that kept us in the game and was involved in the build up for the winner.

Overall we were just about good enough to beat a Swedish side that we made look better than average. The worrying thing is that the way Roy has the team set up means we can't keep the ball long enough, and we're chasing too much. Half the team were dead on their feet and a lot of that is due to the way we're playing. Against Spain and probably quite a few other sides, we'll be ripped another arse hole if we're so poor at possession and sit as deep.

Saying that we're a draw away from the knock out stages and we've beaten Sweden for the first time in a proper game since tikay and Moses were kids.

Telegraph has rated Johnson 4/10! But harsh!

When Johnson has to think, he's not very good. If its a reaction defensive situ he is fine.

We still in general looked scared to push forward with any real conviction.

Young & Milner were both poor IMO.

With Rooney coming back in do we need 2 wide players?

Vs Spain probably not

Quailty ending  to the summary

johnson is like parker in a way

parker often makes last ditch tackles because he isnt quick enough to be in the right position were as johnson is very good at covering the centre backs (covered terrys arse all game) but cant resist pushing on when we have the ball

Do people think Wellbeck was good last night?  I thought he was truly awful, Carrol and Rooney for me.

Young was poor again, i can't rememeber who said it but if he has time on the ball he looks good, if not he's sunday league.

Johnson i liked - if he can just switch on a bit more - their first goal they were berating the defence but ffs, GlenJo switched off for a second, Zlatan sliced an awful shot, it fell to their only man in space 8 yds from goal, the keeper saved it, it hits a defender running at pace in the belly, he nearly gets it out, it hits the post and goes in off him. No luck there....

The 2nd goal was a bit gash, Gezzler looked knackered and just let melberg go.

I'd rather Adam Johnson was there but Milner was pretty decent, committed at both ends of the pitch.

Bringing Walcott and OX on against tired defences in tight games has to be a winning strategy.

Lescott i've never like because he can't play football but i feel pretty at ease now when he's on the ball.

For me, milner is an excellent crosser of a ball. Yesterday, his time was more spent covering for Johnson. He did a perfectly decent job. He's not an exciting player but does the basics well when required. Young and walcott are flashy players who are.either on or off. Young has largely been ON for England but yesterday he was very much off. Walcott came on and did whatwe need a sub winger to do - he and Chamberlain have kept Lennon out of the squad. I wouldn't start him against Ukraine if we also have young and welbeck.

Come on girls! Carney is our only chance here! Wish we were playing Sweden their team is so fit.

Wellbeck for a House Party remake imo.

Looks like a backing dancer/ singer for Salt n Peppa to me.
But kids got skills

Definitely. Actually thought he was v good off the ball in the Sweden game. I think he starts next game.

I still wanna see some windmills though.

if we win by 2 goals then do we go through as leaders?

dunno why everyone thinks we're going to be 2nd??

COME ON ENGLANDDDDD

I'm pretty sure that If France and England both win it'll come down to goal difference, then goals scored. So we need to win by one more clear goal than France and score at least the same amount of goals as them.

Relevant tie-breakers:

d) superior goal difference in all the group matches;
e) higher number of goals scored in all the group matches;

Pretty sure it's not goal difference. Criteria A , B and C will be used befor D.

If you have noticed the league tables changing whilst in play the last 3 nights then you will have noticed teams being above opponents on the same points despite having a worse goal difference

That's the head to head rating. But France and England drew, so it'll come down to GD

Doesn't apply here Jase, that's for a 3 way points tie.

There can only be 2 in our group.

Lol once again proving I know feck all about feck all.

Was playing pool last night in a pub next to a bookies and everyone was having a bet. Been playing about ten mins and I had a £10 double on Spain and Italy both at 8/13. Paid a diss appointing £26.09. Was this a bad bet and worth bothering with. Obv won but that don't make it a good bet does it

You had an amzing price, Italy were 2/5 most places, Spain 1/2 by kick off.

Must have been a couple of days old coupon.

It was in play and just wrote it out. To be honest I did not have much faith in the old dear in ladbrokes as she could not work out how much it was, so rang my wife

England looking really nervous and unable to keep the ball against Ukraine

i think its fine, they'll run out of steam before half time at this rate.

danny wellbeck is total shite though

ran out of steam already

My eight year old lad just said Joe hart is playing well !! That's not good !

Andy Carroll woul have had a couple by now.

Milner and young both terrible.

Boom

Why doesn't errard play on the Wing?

who'd play CM?

Parker struggles, Henderson?

game set up for Walcott on the counter, now

clear it long and let him chase the hare

What is the point of playing welbeck if we aren't going to involve him in the game? Might as well play Defoe or Carroll.

Omg that was a foot over the line ........

Maybe our luck has finally turned in these comps  ;D

Just got to win a penalty shoot out or three now!!

It gotta be due mate.

yes, three decisions like that in 46 years and 2 of them went our way.  :)

Sorry bud,I'm clearly not as old as you  ;nana;

young/milner pretty poor. Been impressed with Lescott and Johnson the most so far in this tourno.

Two cracking deliveries now from stevie G!

Pretty much the worst England team of my lifetime.

Got to love Roy Hodgson though.

It actually burns my fingers typing this, but Terry was outstanding today.

 ;boltpp;

+1. Warming to him and can see why the Albion fans love him. Could turn out an excellent appointment.

Not a Terry fan as a person but at least 3 times I shouted well played Terry tonight.

Italy v England - This surely has to be set up to be one of the dullest games of the tournament? Both have same tactics and neither are fantastic going foward.

If we win who gives a shit, maybe we can outnit them lol

Isn't it nice to have an Englishman in charge of England again. I saw a picture of Roy today walking around the sunny town centre in khaki shorts and a polo shirt with a red face. He looked so English it brought a tear to my eye. All he needed was a knotted hanky on his head for the full authentic Englishman abroad look. Really like him as manager.

Also who said Gerrard shouldn't be in this team? His delivery has been world class in this tournament, created most of our goals, great industry and enthusiasm. Great skipper.

How small is your foot?!

Yeah and expectations have been realistic. We all thought its a tough group and most would never have us winning it. If 'Arry got the job then we would probably been expecting miracles and an appearance in the final

Steve Gerard, have to eat my words, very good tonight. Good post match interview too.

He was led to glorify Rooney's amaze contribution and unbelieveable impact now he was back in the team with 'Sum up Wayne Rooney's goal for us'

'Tap in'

WP Gerard

Rooney, less than average. Can't really see what he contributes ahead of someone like Andy Carroll.

Didn't make a chance for himself, didn't make a chance for anyone else. Didn't beat a man. Didn't hold the ball up well. Didn't bring other players in to the game. Joke header with our best chance of the game other than the goal..Still so massively over rated. But am glad he tapped one in

Yeh if you base his whole career on today he is over rated.

Clearly Carroll Rooney>>> Rooney Welbeck

in reality it's probably 6 inch like mine

Swap Gerrard n milner and play Rooney and carroll up top?

Balance hasn't been quite right in any of the 3 games so far but was at it's worst tonight.
We're suited to playing better teams and make it hard against weaker teams so should suit us being underdogs again.

Carroll would start for me from now on and I'm not sure who I'd play off him. I'd probably play Wellbeck or Rooney wide and have all 3 on. Still think we suit 451 better.

TBF, i've always lolled at him being put in the world class bracket with players like Messi, Ronaldo, Parlour etc

Yeh Clearly Messi and Ronaldo are in a bracket of their own but Rooney is easily the best player we have

TBF, i've always lolled at him being put in the world class bracket with players like Messi, Ronaldo, Parlour etc
[/quote]

Yeh Clearly Messi and Ronaldo are in a bracket of their own but Rooney is easily the best player we have
[/quote]

Notionally, I guess he is. I just question how much he improves this team. The spectre of him bumbling around in South Africa is so seared into my memory I'm probably not a fair judge.

I also think we played marginally better in the 2 previous games, against better opposition, without him

Lol Ashley Cole and joe hart both way better than Rooney both in importance and rank bs other players who play in a similar position.

My memory is shocking these days too.  Glad I am not alone.

Going to have to dredge up some of those Graham Taylor teams.  Who are we throwing out when we put Carlton Palmer in?

surely not keith!

"you have to experiment"

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUU0fSjXKCg

and for that matter

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGdQvqbIexk

Yeh Clearly Messi and Ronaldo are in a bracket of their own but Rooney is easily the best player we have
[/quote]

Notionally, I guess he is. I just question how much he improves this team. The spectre of him bumbling around in South Africa is so seared into my memory I'm probably not a fair judge.

I also think we played marginally better in the 2 previous games, against better opposition, without him
[/quote]

I agree.  I prefer the shape of the team with Carroll and Welbeck.

Notionally, I guess he is. I just question how much he improves this team. The spectre of him bumbling around in South Africa is so seared into my memory I'm probably not a fair judge.

I also think we played marginally better in the 2 previous games, against better opposition, without him
[/quote]

I agree.  I prefer the shape of the team with Carroll and Welbeck.
[/quote]

Carrol and rooner surely. in 3 games wellbeck has done one good thing. The wife will now reply 'Load of shite' whenever i say wellbeck to her, bless her.

I found the attention towards Rooney prior to the game annoying. Our forward play seemed decent enough to me, and produced 3 goals in the last game. 4/6 points seemed ok too. So why are we hyping Rooney as some kind of saviour? Did we need one? Well, in that position at least?

Wasn't too impressed by him today. Yeah, he got the goal. So would anyone else in that position. And speaking of being in position I felt he should have had one earlier with the position he was in. Didn't feel he did much else.

Wasn't the best performance I've seen by England. And they clearly should of had a goal. But can't complain!

Rooney hasn't played a proper match in weeks so was likely to be off the pace in this one. Expectations for some kinda instant impact were unreasonable. Even so he was in the right place for the goal like all class strikers and will improve for the game. He is our boss player and has to be the main man up front in the Italy game. Suggestions we bench Rooney or play him wide are scandalous. Italy look tired and vulnerable to pace so Walcott/Ox wide with Young feeding Rooney is dangerous attack combo built on solid foundation. Think quick counter attacking football is better vs Italy than Wimbledon style with Carroll. Either way we need to be brave enough to have a go. Time to let your hair down Roy.

If we had video technology that Ukraine goal stands, but it was offside...

Actually quite impressed with Carroll on the whole. Him and Rooney for me.

Not enamoured with Welbeck.

I am no expet but think Milner and PArker are way out of their depth. At least there is the wow factor with Walcott and the Ox everytime they get the ball.

I love to watch sides knocking it about when going forward but with England you know if they string 5 or 6 passes together then Hart ends up with it.

Milner is never going to set the pulses racing, but he has to start to protect Johnson who is suspect positionally as we know

He has had the most crosses of any England player in the first three games. Of mixed quality, yes, but that defensive protection is the most important thing

Theo and the Ox are wonderful to have off the bench, especially if you are chasing a game, but for 90 minutes in front of Johnson..perhaps not at this stae of their careers



Parker, who are you going to play as the Holding Midfielder in this squad if you don't pick him? A must start.


Yes of course the inability to keep possession will cost us if not against Italy then further on, but that's going to take a generation to fix...Hodgson has to work round that

Fair points mate. So they would be in your starting line up too.

Playing a non first choice right sided midfielder to cover off a poor righ tback is terrible selection criteria!

Play a solid right back and free up a more attacking spot IMO.

Milner and Parker don't do much for me, but I understand why they are picked

Especially in this squad shorn of so many alternatives by injury

Yes I far prefer watching the flair players, but in these major comps you try not to lose games in the first sixty minutes

Even more so now when we face extra time/penalties etc most likely in a game or two starting tomorrow night

Substitutions etc going to be very important

It would be tactical suicide to start both Theo and the Ox.

Theo has always been most effective as an impact player coming off the bench for Arsenal, I can honestly count the number of good games he has had as a starter on one hand. He's like the little girl with the curl, when he's good he's very very good but when he's bad he's awful.

The Ox is potentially a far more complete player than Theo imo but it's easy to forget how young he is because of his great multi-talents. He has developed enormously this season with a great deal of nurturing from AW but is still not the finished article.

I would pick Milner as a starter every time and I also like Ashley Young as a wide man.

Phil Jones ahead of Parker and we'd keep the ball more and keep the intensity for longer 

The team set up in the group was perfect for that stage of the comp. Now it's straight knockout a few more chances need to be taken. With only 4 attacking positions on the pitch I don't think any of them should be used for defence or be defence minded. Let's explode out the blocks against the Italians with our danger players on the field from the start and then use defence minded attacking players later on when we have a lead to defend. If we go ultra solid and they score on the stroke of full time it will be typical England ballbag imo.

I basically think the opposite of most of this.
I think the team set up was good for France but against weaker opposition that is the time to attack more. I hope/think Roy works out the balance over the next few years as most teams will happily take a draw against us in qualifying so will be delighted if we stand off and defend deep.
Also in the groups wins are needed as draws can send you out. Once you're in the knock out stages as long as you can take penalties you never have to score another goal and you can win the tournament.

Not sure, think solid start and build momentum is good for tournaments. I've watch enough England pen shoot-outs to think this eventuality is best avoided. Also playing for pens is depressing. Best tournament performance I remember is Italia 90 where we had Gazza, Waddle, Barnes, Lineker & Beardsley, none of those players were in the team to defend.

are u high?

No

Parker is terrible IMO.

He danced around the defence playing one twos.. They can do that theirselves fuck off 20 yards forward ffs. Hopefully he doesn't play for England again after this championship.

              Hart


Walker Richards lescott cole


          Cleverly jones wilshire

Theo.                   

                 Rooney
 
                             Welbeck


Looks very decent. Perhaps ox ahead of theo and Carroll Shea of welbeck depending on next season which is huge for both.

You keep putting guys in your teams that are not in the squad. Why?

Level 6 thinking jase

Must be. I still think beckham could still do a job :)

-----------------Hart
Walker----Richards---Lescott---Cole
----------------Rodwell-----------------
----------------Gerrard-----------------
Lennon---------------------A Johnson
---------------Wilshere----------------
----------------Rooney-----------------

Would put Parker in but not sure he will have the pace come the time of WC 2014 but if wasn't planning for future would 100% have him there infront of the defence.

Walcott, and Ox coming off bench together would be pretty deece. Lennon ahead of Walcott purely cos of his familiarity with Walker, and he has less 'bad' games than Walcott IMO.

Wonder if Ravel Morisson will start playing for West Ham, hope he does.

O and I think Jonny Howson could suprise a few people next year..

Bizarre stuff


Wilshere is a holding midfielder

Successive England managers show no inclination to pick Richards, who isn't a central defender anyway, and he has thrown his toys out of the pram in the last month so that makes it tougher still

If Lennon was in Hodgson's thoughts, he'd be in this squad. Same for Adam Johnson


A bit of realism, please

Yeh and talking about Ravel Morrison is just lol before he's even succeed in the prem

Richards is fully capable at CB and has played there a few times before. But like you say his attitude is not right but things can change.
 
Wilshere is a box 2 box midfielder - well the times I have watched him that was the role he was playing. Diaby/Song will be Arsenals holding midfielders?

Adam Johnson would definitely be there if he'd been a regular at the end of the season, hope he leaves City this Summer, preferably to us.

Richards definitely a good centre half and has all of the qualities needed. When he is right back he goes too far forward and loses his discipline but when he plays in the centre he is always super focused.

Cleverly will 100% be playing midfield for England.

Also suspect Gerrard may be "pushed" out wide as his delivery is second to none.

Doubt Lennon will play, the Spurs fans I know say he is just far too inconsistent.

Also think Jones is a lock for the team.

btw if Parker sits as deep as he has done so far Pirlo will absolutely destroy us.

fyp

Wilshere is not a specialist DM, AW played him there as part of his education in the 2010/11 season.

I think he will end up similar to Scholes but left-footed and a better timer of a tackle hopefully.

Future team talk is all good but it's the best team to beat Italy which is relevant. They will keep the ball much better than us and we habitually drop deep under pressure. If we go too solid we will be chasing the ball and then have to retain possession and pass thru them. No evidence we can do this. Think pace is the key with breakaway goals involving 3 or 4 passes. If we drop deep there needs to be an outlet to counter their high line. Not as effective to introduce pace after Italy take the lead and start playing deep imo. Good chance Balotelli gets an early red so should be a breeze anyway.

Pumping the ball upto Carrol n Rooney everytime we get the ball has to be better  than giving it away in middle of the park everytime imo

Very much this, and also a reliance on getting something from corners and free-kicks.

Carroll/Wellback better suited for that approach

Am i missing something about wellbeck? he appears to be totally shit from what i've seen but everyone bigging him up.

Loses the ball, can't hold it up, no pace, can't beat a man etc

He's 21 so its a work in progress

In his first full season in the Premiership with United, I don't suppose he'll be at his best until the next couple of major tournaments

Good finisher, good footballing brain, good partnership with Rooney at club level

Assuming he carries on improving he's going to be a better bet now than Defoe and Bent who are more one dimensional, and you play Carroll when tactics demand a more direct approach

Yes in this tournament he has drifted out of games, and lost possession at times, but the potential is pretty clear

We've bad no possession and the guys had absolutely nil service. He's totally prepared to run into the corners and chase lost causes. I've not seen much of that from Rooney.

Definitely didn't see him doing it in the first two matches.

can safely say i don't think he's done that once, he's not running the channels at all, not trying to break the offside trap, he's crap.

we didnt give him the balls, parker passed it left/right/back sand was 70 yards away from him. He definitely did run alot vs France though.

Tracked back good as well vs Ukraine I thought.

Really don't think he gives away the ball either so found some stats. Not got a clue how reliable they are!


Quote taken from here http://www.eplindex.com/15792/england-player-stats-accumulated-euro-2012-opta-stats.html

There's a difference between holding the ball up well and passing accuracy.

Running into opposition players and losing the ball, or losing it before you have chance to pass it won't affect your passing accuracy stats will it?

And this is why statistics can be misleading.

A little known fact about me is that I have 2 identical brothers.

We are all pretty excited about the England match already.

(http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff384/Milligan84/Engurland.jpg)

hahaha, brilliant

Haha how did I miss this pearler?

The biggest waste of talent England has. He needs to play every week.

I laughed very much.  wp

Italy have excellent central midfielders. We'll struggle to keep the ball, even more so than when we played France. We have to play Carroll imho. I would also opt for Theo or Ox on one of the wings. Probably Ox on the left as Milner crossing to Carroll makes the most sense.

Weirdly it actually would make a lot of sense to play Downing however I'm not sure I could actually watch a game with both Downing and Milner on the flanks. FML.

Millidonk, that is brilliant.

Poor missus, its her bday today and I'm far too excited about the match. Praying its not a 0-0 bore draw just for us too lose on penos.

Me and my brothers are getting on the stellas shortly. C'mon England.

LOL @ picture. Made my morning.

Have we got a chance today? I think overall we are the better team.

Everyone looks at this game and thinks it's going to be a bore draw and I see no reason to disagree, but I just have a feeling that today is going to see plenty of goals.

I actually quite fancy our chances. Would love to see us win a 3-2 thriller or pump then 4-0 but can't really see it happening tbh. Think Chamberlain and Walcott would have to start and Rooney would have to be on top form for anything like that to happen. Anyways just getting there is all that matters.
Let's dooooo eeeeeet!

I would much prefer to lose on penalties than get spanked.

I think it will be a narrow loss. We'll play pretty similar and concede possession and territory.

The new England. Not expecting but hoping.

Always happy to help out a mate I can be a stunt cock if you need mate. It's floating cardboard week up here in Scunny so am looking for some spare. (will be in Lincoln in half an hour )

As far as the footy goes these Euro's have been a bit weird. In my youthful 42 years never has expectation been so low for an England team. I  not sure if the loss of enthusiasm is down to past results but I have watched every game at home instead of in the pub with mates. With this squad and manager that no one actually seemed to want, I think winning the group is an excellent result and anything else is just gravey. Plenty of people thought we may not even make it out of the group and are know giving us a 50/50 shot against a mediocre French side. I for one will take any sort of win, on penalty's, a fluke goal, hand of god from rooney or god forbid the worst case scenario that the cockend Terry actually turns out to become England's saviour. We ain't got a chance against the Germans or Spanish so no ones right bothered ATM but if a team of Greek under dogs can win this thing then why can't we. But don't go telling everyone coz we don't wanna ruin it by getting our hopes up.

lolz, showed your hendon mob pic mate, she said she will give Lesbianism a shot first.

My hopes are fully up now, fuck having no expectations, lets win this thing! INGRRRRRRRRRLUND

Yeah lets av ittttttt. ;)

Any updates on team news??

Unchanged

England
Just do an AL DAVIES
come on

James 'I'm not good enough for England' Milner playing again.

COME ON ENGLAND

It's an odd feeling to be watching a game, thinking all three results are as likely as each other.

Ah sod it! COME ON ENGLAND!!

                               COME ON ENGLAND!

(http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff384/Milligan84/EnglandFace.jpg)

Recently invested in some software for the camera?

England trifle?

Wouldn't say invested, but acquired some new software yea. Trifle is the nut low of desserts.

Lets gogogogogogogo. Feeling really positive which isn't a normal feeling before an England match.

Sick tune my Lethal B.

Fkin hell. Some shot that.

It looks like both teams have decided to take each other by surprise by actually going for it,

Like a prem game this.

Things missing from an England championship campaign

A glaring goal keeper error
Key player sending off
Penalties
Getting robbed by the ref
Oppo cheating us out of the match

Could be an action packed 2nd half

hart - very good
johnson - looks like a liability
terry -very good, that long ball is fine
lescott - very good
cole - solid as per

young - looks brighter
gerrard - steady/reliable
parker - hm ok i think
milner - actually did very well i think

rooney - terrible, lol world class
wellbeck - doesnt give enough atm

Pirlo is just redic good. Welbeck and Rooney should drop deeper to make his life more difficult. Johnson has given the ball away far too much, think Rooney has been poor, him off, Carroll on and Young off for Oxlaide or bring Walcott on and send Milner on the left. Think we wait too long to put crosses in.

Bring on Carroll & Walcott for welbeck & Milner

Rooney not fit enough maybe? Thought a break may do him good, maybe not!

carroll would do great here too. give the big lad 45 minutes,

roy will never make a change though.

Milner is so far the worst player on the pitch. He cost us nearing letting a goal in and stupidity when putting a cross in.

Rooney not much better, but Rooney is Rooney.

I also wish parker would play just a little but further foward.

Who are you going to take off for AC?

Walcott & Carroll on for Rooney and Wellbeck

Wish someone would try Walcott through the middle some day

The Andrew Feldman thing is on at 9pm, so set your recorders!

Rooney's been far worse than Milner so far in the game that I have been watching.

Joe hart! Genius or too sloppy?

Love Rooney but if he isn't 100% replace him with Carroll but don't leave it till the last 10 minutes.

ashley fucking young get a fucking grip or you will lose us this game for fucks sake

Roy is a blonde

Young stays on? gtfo.

Balotelli slung it over his shoulder ???

Probs Milners best game, bit unlucky to be off there

very brave, lets go

Thank god for that.

Well done on a shite tournament Milner.

Andy Carroll........One time !

Who is going to be our 3rd sub??

AOC for Young?

I would bring on Defoe...

I'd rather bring Milner back on before Defoe

ox for rooney

Pooney

Plz don't let this come true. Get Young off and Ox on. Ox will run rings around these slags.

Nothing from Rooney tonight, very disappointing but I can't seem him being taken off

Need him for a penalty?

Two very average teams.

Hart injured ?

Totally disagree. Italy look very classy and with a bit of luck would have sewn this up a long time ago.

Pirlo on a different planet.

GeeeeeeeeG. Henderson is horrid.

Thought this too, one above average team and one below average team, but we still might do it..... come onnnnnnnnnn

Good god Hodgson.

I would have rather brought on Downing than overpriced shite that is Henderson.

WHy oh why did Rooney try and make a shot out from that angle! No fucking I in team!

who is our 5 then?

aaron doesnt have a clue so tilting.

Germany are going to tear whoever goes through a new one.

Rooney, Carroll, Gerrard, Hart, Terry.

Sounds right maybe not carroll

Gerrard, Rooney, Walcott, Cole, Hart (apparently Hart is proper decent and loves to take a peno)

terry? lol

ashley cole likes one

gerrard rooney young cole hart for me

johnson will probably take one though

Jordan Henderson, surely?

Terry took 1 v Portugal, will put himself forward, Probably Cole, Young though instead of him and Hart, thinking about it.

Swearing sure makes on look big especially when backed up with great knowledge

This back 4 have really been excellent in this tournament

Is Henderson even on the pitch?

Glen has been hit n miss but the other 3 outstanding! Pirlo clear motm but would be tempted to go with Cole for us. So good.

Terry (puke) or Lescott for me, thought Johnson overall was very good too

1 time let Baggio be there peno coach.

We had a good run!

COME ON ENGLAND

We don't deserve to win this game ...but c'mon England !
Bout time we won a shoot-out

Got to love the drama of an England match.

We can do this hart is incred. Let's gogogogo

I would like to play my ONE TIME, if it's alright with you all

Plus one
One time

Maybe .....just maybe

Pirlo though

Same ol

Sigh.... Just sigh.

 :(

Young missing is huge, just hit the target ffs

Buffon runs so good at life.

(http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq267/ppokerfan/156f2f05.jpg)

Expected nothing less!

Anyone really bothered though? Saves a complete embarrassment on Thursday

Second best by a long way all night.

Disappointing that we have gone out with a whimper

we just cant pass the ball.

rooney an absolute disgrace, people calling him is ridiculous. he didnt even try to get close to Pirlo, anybody can look world class if they got that much time. If Gerrard got the chance to put in 20 crosses in we'd score loads, people just not trying hard enough or not good enough. Feel sorry for Ashley Cole who was brilliant all tournament, also very impressed with Lescott and Terry.

Young/Rooney both absolute disgraces.

tbf, he only had 192'sq to aim at

wow, england are boring, so glad my club team plays football the right way.

Rooney, Young, Milner - 3 WOEFUL players at international level.

Carroll looked a handful. Wish Carroll and Defoe started :(

+1

Everyone seems to think we are a lot better under Hodgson, but I just can't see it.

I think we created 2 chances all game. ROI probably created more than that and they had nothing to play for. As for the penalties, pathetic, especially Cole's, ffs.

The England defence was exceptional when put under so much pressure as the midfield didnt back them up

grinds me to say it but Ashley Cole was world class and still has the energy of an 18 year old

rest of the team lacked fitness and ability

sigh sigh!

Thought parker was good this tournement put the effort in its mad to see so many players walking

Carroll was good but he comes on late and then wont close down up front same for henderson! If your a proffessional player how can you not run for 10-20 mins?

Roy bottled the big decisions here - should have taken off/not played Rooney, was not with it at all and should have got more support in midfield letting Gerrard attack more
And Pirlo obviously good but why not man mark him
Doesn't matter because there is no way we would have got pass the Germans

GET OUT

There's always the Olympics! Pinnacle of the sport surely?

Our best possession stat in the tournament was 48% against Ukraine. You're not likely to keep winning like that against good teams.

Unless you're Chelsea.

Anyway, that's all done with. Let's get the Terry court case done now

I think Roy may have been a bit one-eyed regarding Rooney but overall he surely comes out of this with a lot of credit. Speaks well and honestly too.

Bottom line, is you can't make a silk purse etc.

We don't have a single player in our front 6 that would get into any of the semi final teams or even the underperforming French, Dutch teams.

Calling anyone a disgrace is just stupid. Quarter finals was actually the potential of this and probably any England team.

Technically we just have never been good enough

Hodgson would never have withdrew rooney post or pre match because of the stick he'd get if we went out. Any other country he would have been hauled off (Italy took de rossi off for example) i just cant see how people continue to call him our best play and/or world class.

TBF we're not exactly brimming with alternatives. Think he made a mistake not subbing Young instead of Milner

Englands future does not look bright at all

No replacements for old midfielders and no strike force

Such joke results orientated analysis.

I have no criticism of Hodgson, he did a good job.

Is anyone suggesting Rooney isn't our best attacking player ? The fact he was terrible isn't the manager's fault, he didn't play him because he was frightened of the backlash, he played him due to the fact none of the rest of our strikers are even close to his level of ability.

Ashley Young was by miles our biggest disappointment of the tournament, thought he was poor in every game.

I can't believe I'm thinking it nevermind admitting it but think Terry was our best player.

So tilting to here "justice was done" about 5 times after we lost on pens for the 4th time in 8 tournaments, JUSTICE ? GREASE THE BBC!

As much as I hate to say it, Terry was huge tonight.

Our performance in extra time was embarassing - it was like watching a non-league team play Man Utd in the FA Cup.

Decent effort.

That's about our level.

Rooney hit the gym you tub of lard!

back 4 played extremely well

as much as id loved to won tonight the italians were so much better and why oh why did we give pirlas so much space and time surely roy should have had a plan to negate him !!!

Do people say the back 4 played well because they kept a clean sheet over the 120 Minutes?
Italy hit the post 3 times, had a Goal chopped off(rightly) and had at least 5 one on ones with Hart.
On another Day Italy could have scored 3 or 4 easily.

yes, wot more can they do other than that?

Hart - Class, and will get better and better.
Cole - Is the best left back in the world at the moment
Lescott - Positional sense 1st class.
Terry - Did everything that was asked, just can't shake image of him looking like he was running thru treacle, vs Sweden
Johnson - When reacting to a defensive situation, did superb, saved us lots of times.  If he has to think, useless
Milner - Can't cross, Can't tackle, Can't head, isn't pacey, isn't skillful.  
Gerrard - Englands best player in the tournament.  Where have you been for the past 2 tournaments Stevie.
Parker - Reliable, never doing anything he knew he couldn't do.  "Did exactly what its said on the tin"
Young - Hate him, but in his defence, i think our tactics thwarted his ability
Welbeck - Brazil really will be his tournament
Rooney - Lack match fitness and it showed too much
Carroll - Carried on his late season form, but will only ever be an impact player at this level
Walcott - Just me?  Other than immense pace...does what?
Oxlade-Chamberlain - See Welbeck
Defoe - Other things more important to him I think
Henderson - Didnt do anything wrong, didnt do anything right.

England-til-i-die-opinion - Heroic defending, bodies on the line, like only England can.

Harsh opinion - We all laughed at Ireland-Spain,...I think the whole of Europe just had a laugh at us.............

Cold light of day - we have a solid base to build on.  Hodgson now has 2 years to find the balance between disciplined/oganisation...and attacking paced quick thinking forward play.


We have the players to do it, can he find the key.....

Hate Penalties, love England.

I don't know very much about football, so indulge me here please.

Roughly what percentage of penalties do you think a top class professional football player should score? 

Around 85% of penalties are scored. Nearly all of these will be taken by designated penalty takers in normal games though. In a penalty shootout you get players who don't normally take penalties, in a high pressure situation, after they've been running around for 2 hours.

add to that the additional pressure of our history in penalty shootouts

Cole took probably the best of the penalties for Chelsea in the Champs League Final, and the nut worst in this. Young was the width of the crossbar away from scoring.

Gerrard said after the match that the team had hoped it would be our turn for the bit of luck in penalty shootouts we need. This said it all. It is not down to luck that England have won 1 penalty shootout in 7, and it is not down to luck that Germany have only lost 1 in 7.

This was the least disappointed I have ever been by an England exit, the last World Cup damaged my view of the England team, and several other International teams, and football in general, so much I think it finally gave me a realistic outlook on our chances.

Quite happy we escaped the groups, quite optimistic we have something to build on, happy with elements of the performance last night, happy enough we Hodgson as a manager. Most happy that we have the Olympics round the corner to look forward too and help us forget about this.

The pirlo penalty was pure ballsy.

Think Messi is playing in the Olympics so good game anyone else. He could turn out for the Leeward islands and get them a medal

Argentina aren't in it.

I think the reality is that we didn't have the quality in midfield to control the ball.
Without that, we had little option but to be resolute, and hope to nick a goal, or exploit set pieces.

We are short in midfield as a nation anyway, and the run up taking away Lampard, Barry, Wilshere etc... was insurmountable.

I'm not a massive fan of Parker and Milner (workaday Prem. players at best), but I'm not having criticism of them in this tourney. They gave everything, and played right up to their potential, and can hold their heads high for that.
Gerrard had a very good series of games up to the Italy match. He started that one well, but his ball retention, and pass completion were poor from half time onwards. It's difficult though, when you are being overrun, and constantly chasing the ball, and he was looking pretty tired late on.

Lol. Once again I know feck all about feck all

At least we actually practised them this time. 

Ludicrous in the past saying that the penalty shoot-out conditions can't be replicated, so no point practising taking penalties.  That's more of a reason to practice, so at least the mechanical aspect of taking a penalty is right.  It's like someone who trains at any sport or martial art - you repeat the action so it becomes second nature and when you need to use it in the heat of battle, it's something you can do without thinking about.  Of course, they can still be fluffed, but it's all about increasing the percentages.

You're right, practice > no practice, but the most important thing is to have a confidence, and be in control of the situation, and you can't really teach that.
Pirlo and Balotelli had it, Rooney probably, but English players on the whole, seem to have it less than players from some other countries.

Im not half as annoyed as I thought Id be. As Daveshoelace said earlier, my expectation was alot lower than it has been in past tournaments.

I thought Hart was amazing last night. The back 4 defended so well. I know we let a few leak through, but I think alot of teams would have struggled to beat us for 90% of the match. The only problem was letting Balotelli get the few runs 1 on 1 that he had. That said, I NEVER doubted Joe Hart for a second. Him and Terry were absolutely world class (and thats from a Utd fan).

Also on the view of a Utd fan, Young was absolutely pathetic. I think Rooney played better than people make out, but was still terrible. His 1-2s were v good, passing was decent and actually gave us a charge through their midfield. Seemed like he didnt know what to do with the ball when he got to the end of the runs though.

Agree with Waz about Welbeck and the Ox. Both got amazing vision in their respective positions, just need that bit more experience. Hopefully that will come.

I've never been one to like Terry, for all of the obvious reasons.
Despite all of the protestations to the contrary, it's clear the FA / Hodgson decided than only one of Terry or Ferdinand could go, for non-football reasons.

From a football perspective, they definitely made the right decision, and Terry was very, very good.

Ashely Young looked absolutely terrified as he came up to take his - I don't think he even looked at the goal or Buffon beofre he kicked it.

Pirlo's penalty was not just class, it was genuinely soul-crushing.

Rooney looked terrible and didnt look the keeper in the eye - but he scored

(http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq267/ppokerfan/9db6dd91.jpg)

Gerrard not top 5 for us.

Thought the England performance was embarrassing. All this unlucky on penalties stuff just covers up how little ambition we showed in our approach. Italy had 36 attempts at goal compared to our 9 and beat us 70-30 on possession. I said before Italy are vulnerable to pace and were there to be shot at but we never really had a go. Just satisfied to drop off very deep and run around all night trying to win the ball. When the ball was won there was zero adventure to commit men forward and take chances to win the game.

Pirlo is old, slow, lacks power, lacks physicality and yet he dominated us from the start and we had no answer. Why?

Andy Carroll was embarrassing as well. Just loped around barging into people and struggled with basic control of the football. Why is a talented £35m striker letting the left back step up to shoot at goal before him anyway.

Those stats are bollocks.  The top passer for England yesterday was Hart, and the most passes were from Hart to Carroll (and he only joined the game after 60 minutes).

That highlights where the problem was.

https://twitter.com/#!/OptaJoe

Some of the stats on there are interesting.

He won virtually everything in the air and controlled most of the balls when he came on. If you looking for players that were terrible parker unable to pass the ball or young to actually do anything are much more obvious targets.

England were what we all expected. Short of the 3-4 players that would have made a difference. Roy did as well as expected, unbeaten and pride intact. No shame in losing to Italy on pens.

lol at the carroll abuse. Only guy who got close to Pirlo and won almost every single header.

Hardly suprising those stats about Hart. If England managed to string 5 passes together the ball ended up at Harts feet, and if he did not end up finding Carroll's head the Italians won the ball

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/602654_10150880146550881_1347498952_n.jpg)

thought this article nailed it

By Paul Hayward, Chief Sports Writer, in Kiev


Not content with hanging on for long periods on three previous Euro 2012 nights, England clung on for two more days, as this quarter-final broke the bounds of Sunday and carried on into Monday. The English have now won one of eight penalty shoot-outs: against Spain at Euro 96 - on home soil.

Their chief tormentor was the unflappable Andrea Pirlo, who was managed by Hodgson briefly at Inter Milan. Now 33, Pirlo, in his 87th international appearance, scored from the spot with an outrageously deft chip. With his ability to control the tempo and shape of the game, the Juventus midfielder was the counterpoint to England’s scurrying and desperation.

One of his equivalents, Scott Parker, performed beyond the limits of his talent here and was honest about that fact. He should not be disparaged for being less good than Pirlo. Steven Gerrard, meanwhile, captained England with great energy and conviction. Yet these two were finally overwhelmed by an Italian midfield more adept at keeping possession and using the ball.

England’s lamentable record in penalty shoot-outs suggests a congenital failure of technique and temperament. Ashley Young crashed his effort against the crossbar. Ashley Cole fired tamely into Gianluigi Buffon’s falling body. Alessandro Diamanti, once of West Ham, completed the execution. Anything else would have been larceny.

The 12-yard shoot-out merely confirmed the unmistakable lessons of the game. By the time Mario Balotelli placed the ball on the spot to beat Joe Hart people were already joking that England would have to play Germany at music, comedy, cricket or Association Costume Drama, as Armando Ianucci once suggested. At least they avoided Joachim Löw’s formidable Nationalmannschaft in Warsaw on Thursday.

In victories over Sweden and Ukraine, a draw with France and this deserved defeat to Italy, Hodgson stretched a thin squad to its limits and restored many lost qualities: unity, modesty, communication and a willingness to do more than mumble through the national anthem. But none of these advances make up for profligacy with the ball and players missing from 12 yards.

Humility had done its work and England’s likeability was repaired. So the country rose back up in hope and expectation as Hodgson’s men endeavoured to be more than a 4-4-2 team with a talent for muddling through. That proved beyond them.

With a forward line of Mario Balotelli and Antonio Cassano, Italy’s starting XI might have been picked by Sigmund Freud. Balotelli lectured his team-mates, kicked a goal post after missing from three-yards out and left the pitch at the interval moaning. When the Azzurri came back out, though, England were smacked around. Hodgson’s men had played a game of how-far-can-we-go? This far, was the answer.

Every detail here was familiar from St-Etienne, Lisbon and Gelsenkirchen: the gnawing sense that 58 years without a knock-out win against top-level opposition away from English soil might finally be ending. That was a ragged hope from half-time. Italy probed in their more flexible 4-1-3-2 formation but in the first-half England offered a reasonable advertisement for 4-4-1-1 by playing wider on the counter-attack.

Fabio Capello was spared the ambivalence of leading England into battle against his homeland by the stance he adopted over John Terry’s demotion as England captain. Would Don Fabio have engineered the downfall of mother Italy? England would have adopted the more fluid and modern formation Capello devised in the aftermath of the World Cup debacle; but the squad would have been stuck in the age of cultural awkwardness, without the ease and unity has Hodgson imparted to the camp.

The England manager has used substitutions around the hour-mark to good effect but when Andy Carroll and Theo Walcott stripped for action on 57 minutes it was out of desperation. Welbeck and Milner gave way. For nearly a quarter of an hour Italy had attacked with renewed venom and England were back into survival mode: a fashionable pose these days, but not one that often works often against the superpowers.

Sweden and Ukraine - maybe. An over-rated France - if you’re lucky. But in these knock-out games you play poker with the devil if you believe you can withstand Italian wisdom without the ball.

Gerrard and Parker were working another double shift against a mobile and denser Italian midfield. In the middle at this level, 4-4-2 puts a huge strain on the two in the centre. For Gerrard, Euro 2012 has been a chance to lead and inspire, transcend a disappointing club season with Liverpool and leave a mark on the international stage at last. After 71 minutes, he was on the turf, wincing and stretching his calf. A tactical consultation with Gary Neville followed, but with two substitutes already on there was little England could to dramatically alter the game’s ominous pattern.

Strength of character has enjoyed a wonderful spring and summer, with Chelsea and England. But here on eastern Europe’s new frontier clinging on started to look less like an art form and more a risky challenge to the gods.

Perspiration sought one more victory over inspiration. It failed. Now Hodgson is fully the England manager, not just an ageing sage who rushed to his country’s rescue at short notice - and he will need some good ideas to break this dismal cycle.

Carroll won headers and flicked them on to nobody. If nobody from your team is running in behind why are you flicking headers on? To say he got close to Pirlo at any point is fantasy. Then at the end he let a defender shoot at goal instead of stepping up himself. Great contribution. That said not one of our attacking players showed anything of note. Young and Rooney were terrible. 

So he is getting criticism because he won headers and Rooney I'd t gamble or make intelligent runs off him? He even adjusted well and starts bringin the ball down and bringing others into play.

Don't worry Snowball - I agree with you. It wasn't great defending. It was good when we got close to them but they got through us to easily on many occassions.

Carroll isn't top level international class, by any stretch, but his contribution when he came on was fine.
He flicked some balls on, and brought some under, which is what you would expect him to do.
He also was a little more effective defensively than Welbeck and Rooney had been earlier.

He shouldn't be the kind of forward who plays behind front man, and therefore picks up the holding midfielder, but he still managed to do some work in that area.

I'm not a Carroll worshipper (like Pleno), but I can recognise a bit of effort, and honest endeavour when I see it.

Are you so stupid that you genuinely think penalty takers choose themselves? Even at under 13s football you choose via actually taking penalties, not, who fancies a crack. Don't mean to be rude but seen people say it so much and its joke tilting.

Although Rooney was really very poor (I would've scored the overhead opportunity as I practice them a lot and have great muscle memory) I did think the overall set up didn't help him. Always allowed the Italians to hunt him in packs as there was no one else up there to occupy them.

AndrewT's point about Pirlo's pen was spot on - the gig was up when he put that away with such nonchalance.

Sorry for being stupid. If a £35m striker is very keen to take a penalty and very confident he will score why is the manager saying he would prefer a left back to take it instead?

Agree with this. We parked the bus every game. Awful tactics imo. Not that we'd be good enough with the right tactics but still...

I would prefer for Caroll not to take a penalty - far too tall - shame that Ashley missed (as in Cole) never really liked him but thought he came across well and also played well, as did all the defence
so hard to decide who takes pentalties - 120 minutes - mentally and physically done, can't be repliacted - perhaps the Germans are so good at them as they don't have the pressure from the press
One time for Hart to just stay still and just boot out Pirols penalty would have been class
This one did not hurt as much as the other - 90, 96 probably the worst and 98 - win one of those and we are the Champs
England please win in my lifetime, please (where is Euro 2016?)

Next one is in France.

This one definitely hurt the least.

St Dennis
Very easy to get too
I could be home in Watford for brekie on Monday
Come on England
Don't think we have a chance in Brazil (or any other Euro side probs) but France yes
96 hurts the most - golden goals and that disallowed goal in ET - wow that was like the biggest puke ever for about 3 seconds

Do we know if he was to take the 5th pen?

Johnson was down for 5th.

The left back had better success in training, actually taking penalties, instead of just "feeling keen". Also, bringing in his price tag is another joke that comes with Carrol. Everyone in the world agrees they overpaid. Also, worst possible example, as Cashley may be the only truly world class player in the team, he'd get into all the teams at the euros for sure, he would probably be valued higher if we could compare age/ wasn't at the richest club in the world at his peak.

So in training both full backs had better success scoring from 12 yards than AC? Pretty embarrassing for AC imo. Agree Ashley Cole is world class during a game but penalties is just a single shot at goal and I consider him very average at that. In major championships I would prefer our penalties to be taken by strikers paid to put the ball in the net rather than defenders from now on pls. In France 98 we played the Argies in a pulsating game. At the most critical point in the penalty shootout I remember seeing David Batty walk forwards. I could not physically believe my eyes.

Jamie Carragher was brought on at the end of extra time in one game because he was one of the best penalty takers in the squad

Gareth Southgate was good too.

So would I. But at the end of the day, there is clearly a reason why he stepped up instead. I remember a lot of the argie game. Had to beg my mum to let me stay up when if i asked my dad he'd have snapped said yes. Ended up crying having watched Beckham, my hero, get sent off. Lol at David Batty.

Sorry for using the word stupid, its been a bad day, i was aware it was wrong to say, but couldn't express it any other way.

Actually agree with Mantis. Surely strikers and midfielders/dead ball specialists should be taking penalties before defenders?

vs Argentina in 98 was probably my lowest point following England.
From the high of the Owen goal, to the Beckham sending off, then me and my mate throwing beer everywhere when Sol Campbell 'scored', only to look round about 15 seconds later to see the Argies attacking.
Such a great game, and, as much as I've willed England on this time, no comparison in terms of entertainment, and emotional swings.

I agree too, in theory. It clearly isn't the case though. I think the guy in charge thought this too. If AC had shanked 50+ in training, but Woy made him step up to take one, and he fires 1000 feet into the air, and the fact leaked, would people be saying its Roy's fault? He choose the best players in his experience, not the ones that "should" take the pens. Interestingly enough, all of Italy's pen takers were midfielders or strikers.

I Remember back in the day when irwin used to take penalties for united. i think it should just purely be a case of your best penalty takers who can deal with pressure no matter what position they play!

I'm not happy to be doing this (defending cAshley Cole) but skip forward to 3.00 and then tell me you wouldn't want hm taking a penalty in a shoot out.

he's a senior player and more used than most to the pressures

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOINYQmbyRw

Carragher was brought on to take a penalty because Tord Grip remembered he took one and scored in the CL shootout vs Milan. Unfortunately, Carragher did not take a penalty in that game. Glad our management team were so clued up on their players  ::)

Players who walk away from the ball, facing the goal, are 10-15% more likely to score. The difference in body language between the Chelski one and England pen he took are amazing.

Defender Carragher missed. Yet England's top goalscorer that season and specialist striker Peter Crouch didn't take one. Defender Stuart Pearce missed in Italia 90 with Gazza not taking one. Defender Gareth Southgate missed in Euro 96 with Mcmanaman/Anderton not taking one. Euro 2012 both fullbacks in our top 5 with £35m striker AC not taking one. Don't mind specialists like Irwin stepping up but choosing reg defenders when goal scoring talent is available seems tez.

Stuart pierce?

Did say dead ball specialists.

Gazza understandably didn't take one although as he would have been suspended for the final and was probs feeling sorry for himself rather than trying to drag his country to the final as Roy Keane did against Juventus in 1999

Mantis is being mischievous. Andy Carrol's penalty taking record is poor and the skillset needed to be a big target man and scorer of towering headers is not the same skillset as that needed to score a penalty. Mantis knows this.

I have absolute faith in Roy and his team having done their homework and selected the best first five available on the pitch at the time based on training ground work.

Ultimately Ashley Young was the width of the crossbar away from scoring.

Cole's penalty looked very much the product of two hours of ceaseless strife and the pressure of the situation. If Young's penalty is say 6" lower, Cole's is so much easier. Ifs and buts, ifs and buts.

Remember this; before the tournament started we were only vaguely hopeful of getting through the group stage in 2nd place...

If I had a striker on the pitch, presumably it's because I think he's got a chance of scoring some goals, that he wants to score goals, and he might be quite good at it given half a chance.

"Here son, fancy a chance at scoring a goal. Right in the centre of the area, no defenders anywhere near you and only the keeper to beat"

"No thanks"

"WTF?  GTFO."

Lol at mischievious. When you think England have a 17% success rate in shootouts it's hard to think it's all down to bad luck. Strikers train day in day out to hit the corners of the net and strike the ball with power. Defenders don't hone those skills. So when defenders step up under pressure to take a penalty the corners of the net seem too risky and very narrow so they tend to play safe and shoot at central areas, and they often scuff the shot.

Italia 90 Pearce, Euro 96 Southgate, France 98 Batty, Germany 06 Carragher all hit their penalties into central areas. Most of those shots were not hit cleanly either. I reckon AC has a harder shot than Andy Cole and is much better trained at hitting the corners of the net, so don't know why he isn't the better option. With England it seems the senior players want to step up to show they are proper men.

Also didn't agree with these low expectations for a competition Denmark and Greece have won in recent times. We had the Man Utd forwards, the captain of Chelsea, the captain of Liverpool, Man City regs, and every other player is on big money to play in the premier league. I didn't expect to be bashed up in every game really. Think we had 9 shots on target all tournament.

Apologies if I am repeating people here but, although the penalty takers are pre-determined to an extent, it is a loose arrangement between manager and player. 

Psychology and mindset are a massive part of hitting a pen and I would expect that a manager would take this into account after the final whistle of extra time.

He will be scanning his players faces and body language looking for any clues of their positivity and confidence as they engage with teammates and medical staff. 

He will also ask the players if they are still willing to step up and take the most important and pressure filled kick of their life in front of thousands of fans and millions worldwide. 

He will be relying on these players to be honest. 

He will ensure them that it does not reflect adversely on them if they withdraw themselves and that other players are happy to step in. 

He will take all of these factors into account before selecting his 5 and the order.

In short, managers have to be flexible with their choices in penalty shootouts and players have to be truthful and understanding whatever happens.

All this because I didn't like that Mantis got called stupid!

Pretty sure that forwards miss penalties in shootouts too..
Ronaldo vs Chelsea in Moscow, Beckham vs Argentina in Japan, Waddle vs Germany in France
off the top of my head
posting from phone so cba to search for stats but I don't believe that being a defender means you can't take penalties.
Few keepers have been pretty succesful in that area over the years.

Baggio vs Brazil

Shevva v Liverpool!

Next time can we get someone from Germany to organise/coach/train our penalty takers
Someone call Jurgen Klopp please

Calling Derren Brown would be more effective

English Grit, Heart, Defence
French, Flair, Creativity, Forwards
And Robbin on the wing
Yes we can Win

Blimey, it could be a lot worse you know, I'm a Sheff Utd fan, I have had my fill of shit penalty shootouts in the last few weeks. We even had the goalie take one Mantis, Can you imagine what the reaction would have been if Hart had taken one before other outfield players on Sunday as speculated and cost us the game. He is supposedly shit hot at the penalty taking. Wish he had been in goal for dem Blades.

End of the day its about bottle and belief and we just don't seem to have enough of it when push comes to shove.

Insert Quote

Blimey, it could be a lot worse you know, I'm a Sheff Utd fan, I have had my fill of shit penalty shootouts in the last few weeks. We even had the goalie take one Mantis, Can you imagine what the reaction would have been if Hart had taken one before other outfield players on Sunday as speculated and cost us the game. He is supposedly shit hot at the penalty taking. Wish he had been in goal for dem Blades.

End of the day its about bottle and belief and we just don't seem to have enough of it when push comes to shove.

Both England and Sheff Utd!

too right mate, we almost fell over the line, got back up and still fell over again.

Stevenage game was the Killer for you

yes, was a mini slump turned into a crisis at that point.

Spanish and Portugese defenders doing ok with penalties so far...

Ronaldo doesn't get one  :D

yep, what a genius to leave Ronaldo to the 5th penalty. Best player in the team didn't get to take one.

wpggcheerio

Lolz at Ronaldo's ego saving himself for the glory of the 5th penalty.

put 5th behind 2 centre halves, one of whom was made to walk up twice?

Oh my, oh my

Yes, madness.

It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, GTFO Ronaldo.

Surely it makes no difference if he's 1st or 5th.

In fact it's better if he's 5th as, presuming he's the best at penalties, he's more likely to score. If he goes earlier, then one of the lesser guys takes the 5th and, with the added pressure, more likely to miss.

but if it makes no difference then why not put him first, coz by putting him lower down the list you run the risk he doesn't take one.

That has to be a big difference doesn't it?

Gerrard and Drogba did it in CL finals and it worked out ok.

Wherever he goes they lose when Alves and Moutinho miss their penalties.

But if he scores earlier on, the other fella still misses and you still lose.

The question is, how does Ronaldo going earlier make the player at number 5 more likely to score?

Shambles. Ramos was class and Nani's pen was unreal. Where did that come from. Alves should have turned round and stopped, looked like he'd seen a basalisk!

but you are judging it on tonight's result  not the long term. Ronaldo taking a penalty in a shootout improves Portugals chances of winning it surely?

Your best 5 penalty takers should take the first 5, in virtually top to bottom order, you can perhaps mess about with the first 3, but you should never have Ronaldo 5th as any advantage gained when he takes last is nullified when he doesn't get to take a penalty. I don't know if they have to hand in an order but you could save him for the first essential penalty. Also, your best penalty takers score more and add pressure onto the opposition players

It's a best of ten shoot out.

If each penalty is an independent event then it makes no difference which order the players take their penalties, as the overall result would be the same.

The order only matters if the position affects whether a player will perform better or worse than if they took any other penalty.

If the better players going first will make the lesser players more successful later on then it's a no brainer to have Ronaldo 1st. Could this be the case? Make it more likely that the defender at 5 is trying to win the game rather than avoid going out, which eases the pressure a bit? Maybe.

However, I would maintain that a lesser player's chance of scoring is improved if they go early, at the time of, relative, lesser pressure. If Ronaldo will handle the pressure of 5th better than another player then that's where he should be.

but you can win the shootout before the lesser 5th pen taker has a chance to score but by putting your best man last you can already be beaten, as happened tonight.

The times when you win the shoot out before your crap number 5 gets a go are the times when you would still win if he went first - the order has made no difference.

The penalties are not independent events, theoutcome of the 4th clearly effects the 5th, as showed by tonight. Surely the chance of winning the penalty shootout before your worst players take one. I see what your saying but having your best player not take a penalty is clearly a disaster. If his goal expectation 0.8 and alves 0.6 we are clearly better off putting the best men forward to win the game

I can confirm that when I play on Football Manager I put my best penalty takers first.

And still lose.

It's all ifs and buts right now, but Ronaldo should have been the first penalty taker. I am not sure I believe in this 0.8 and 0.6 stuff though, every professional football player should be scoring a penalty 8 times out of 10.

Although, at least Portugal get a good international player like Ronaldo, a player who matches his club form. Unlike Rooney, absolute tosh for England, time after time. Is he really world class???

Ronaldo would've missed anyway, he's choked a few times in penalty shoutouts.

Never saw him wink at anyone tonight ;)

http://m.askmen.com/sports/fanatic_300/334_penalty-shootouts-how-to-win.html


Some interesting stuff here - and especially, I think, this bit

Individual habits are only a secondary matter, though. The key moment in any shootout occurs before it even starts. The referee tosses a coin, and the captain who calls correctly gets to decide whether his team takes the first kick. Always kick first, says Palacios-Huerta. The team taking the first penalty wins 60% of shootouts. That’s because the team going second shoots under great pressure. They keep having to score just to stay in the game. I was in the Pretoria stadium for Japan-Paraguay, and the moment Paraguay’s captain, Justo Villar, won the toss and chose to start, I logged onto a bookmaker’s website and tried to put money on Paraguay winning. The bookmaker refused me because of my location; it wasn’t taking bets placed in South Africa. Paraguay won the shootout. 

probs a legality issue instead of any underhandedness in regards to seeing the action early. Can't believe market wasn't suspended for the toss either, esp as bookmakers will have these stats too

England now ranked 4th in the World.

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

Ranked 4th in what?