blonde poker forum

Just to defend the concept a bit...

Some of the auctions so far:

Karl M - sold out at a reasonable 1.3 - good value for investors at that price imo.

Myself, my package sold out at 1.26, If I had been selling it without an auction, I'd have priced it higher than that tbh, as I think I'd be good value at 1.35 for that package. I also think I COULD have sold at 1.4 or 1.5 if I wanted to.

Similar for Keys, he's great value at 1.56 in the main, and COULD have sold at higher if he wanted.

Dan Morgan did not do an auction, he priced himself at 1.6 for the main, and over a week later, has sold less than half of what he needed to sell.

Auctions are about sellers NOT squeezing the market for every last cent. They are about letting the market decide what your worth. They let buyers decide what they are willing to pay, and never overcharge them, and they also never miss out because of being 5 seconds too late or whatever.

Two major problems with the staking board as I see it.

1) Sellers taking the piss - people thinking they can charge what they like and will get away with it. Sadly, they're right - 99% of threads sell out very quickly and people are charging higher and higher mark-ups because of this. This can only be bad for the market as a whole. You can argue that the market will correct itself - people won't sell if they charge too much / if you don't want it, don't buy it etc, but unfortunately people do still sell out (Dan's being the only exception I can think of) and buyers either get stung with bad value investments (drying up the market), or they miss out altogether because the price is too high.

2) The second major problem is that all the really good value investments get sold out straight away. Marc Wright is the best example. His staking threads are immense value and he can sell 5 figure stakes in under a minute, that isn't an exagerration! This is infuriating for buyers who'd happily pay extra mark-up to get a slice.

I believe the auction concept solves both of these problems.

One point I will make, not that I don't think a site that hosts these auctions would be a good idea (if anyone has had it :P) but staking boards are driven by BUYERS, not SELLERS, if there isn't enough people buying then no matter how good an offers are for sale a staking board will not work.

I sell action for lots of things lots of times and I have regular buyers, I look after them in many ways. Seems the auctions don't offer much for the prolific buyers like Flushy/Rupert etc who buy regularly and buy big.

I don't see any reason why any one buyer or group of buyers should get preferential treatment or be "looked after" in any way on a public staking board.

Any person selling action obviously wants to deal with as few people as possible. Transaction/administration costs are non-trivial

Agree :)

not preferential, but certain people spend a lot more $'s buying than others, which ensures the liquidity of the board, without these people the board wouldn't run so a system which makes life difficult for them is negative for the whole board, including the buyers who spend less $, because without the liquidity the opportunity to buy wouldn't be there.

Actually if you look at the economic theory - draining every cent is exactly what auctions are about. They allow the price to increase until an equilibrium price is reached. This by definition is the highest possible price at which the product will sell out. Therefore it stands to reason that big buyers like Flushy and Rupert do not like auctions. If every thread became an auction and every buyer was happy to use the auction format, prices can only increase. Trying to dress it up as anything else is very misleading imo.

Unfortunately for sellers this concept assumes that buyers are indifferent between buying in an auction format and buying in the standard 'given price' format. If buyers were indifferent between the two formats then it would always be correct for the seller to run an auction format and get the highest possible price. Until recently the auction format hasn't been getting a ton of love so I've steered clear of it but people seem to be slowly warming to the idea so I think the number of auctions will pick up.

As for the problem of good value stuff selling out quickly - thats more of a problem for the seller than the buyers. While its all very nice to have packages snap sell out, to me as an economist that means I've done myself out of a lot of value by pricing myself too low. I've been using the old 'trial and error' method to find my equilibrium prices rather than auctions because I think there is more value in the 'given price' format than the auction format at the present time. Sometimes this will lead to markups being too low and snap selling out (SCOOP & Marbella), sometimes I get them just about right and it sells out steadily (ala 10k heads up) and sometimes its a little high and the action might not shift (ala main event, although this very much remains to be seen). I choose not to take market movements personally and I think having a thick skin is the way to go if you're going to push the boundaries and really try to maximise your EV.

Amazingly good post dan

+ 1  Well Played

Dan just run an auction and if you are struggling for bids its pretty easy- u suddenly have an anonymous bidder by pm, Alan buys 5% via facebook, John sent u a 3%  twitter bid or my personal favourite is to leave it late and low and behold a good pal of yours without 300 bids swoops in and sends the price through the roof

Moderator ..take Dans post & onward to a new thread ?  so as not take over Skols

Hi James, I would like to pay by bank xfer please. Can you pm me details and current rate. Gl in vegas!

This is harsh.

But gold.

Sounds like you're accusing one of me, James or Karl of something Dave? How else are people without blonde accounts or <300 posts supposed to bid on auctions?

Nobody can change the price without paying for it anyway, so if me and a mate were to collude and buy half the action at 1.x to send the price through the roof, we'd still have to pay the higher price.

Don't get offended its tongue in cheek- I'd already told keys what I thought and from pms ive been getting I'm obviously not in the minority

I actually said in my pms- they probably are just naive to what they are doing and completely innocent as they all are trustworthy but it sets a ridiculous precedent to allow bids from anonymous people, people sending pms/Facebook/twitter/the milkman etc. I'm sure I don't need to explain how you can manipulate a price without having to pay like you suggested.

Slippery slope if forum goes that route.

Tbh, people with less than 300 posts were barred from this board for a reason.

Seems to be circumnavigated at every turn now.

Yeah obviously idea of hosting an auction on here is that it should be confined to here and rules are 300 posts to buy or sell. If people wanna sell on Facebook, do it there- mixing between the 2 or more doesn't work.

Luckily you have an idea to solve that anyway. So should be thanking me for pointing out the flaws here

Agree.

If only there was a site to host auctions on...

I nearly hosted a fake auction for main event to trap people into paying more than they ever should by using people to bid the price up- was going to point out at end how easily it's done. But was worried incase went deep in main and it caused a controversy as was never gonna sell in first place and didnt want people claimig action that was obviously cancelled. But trust me, it's so easily done

All these nice guys who are saying I want to sell at spot or 1.1 will soon be asking for 1.5 like everyone else. I am a fan of letting the market dictate the price but then again I am wrong about almost everything else so why not this :)

Yeh I do realise. But Keith honestly did wait until 23.59 to text me and bid for a massive chunk!

Hence why I said trustworthy honest etc but sets a terrible precedent. Basically you can guarantee never selling a price you don't agree with as you just let a big buyer come in late and then not play or sell elsewhere etx

Surely the greater risk is that the seller will grim the winnings from the buyers or will sell 200% and then take a dive in level one, rather than they bump the price.

The goal cannot me to ensure that the buyers always get the best end of a deal, (sellers price too low and sell out too quick).

Seems to me that buyers are talking their book and not giving the sellers the value they deserve.

(sorry for the thread continued divert)

If the seller deliberately maximises their EV then they are deliberately ensuring the buyer minimises their EV?

I could produce a long list of companies who have chosen to maximise their EV in the short term

Not really kept up with auctions. Have people had non declared reserves on their action

Should they/could they?

Not sure I would ever buy a piece at auction

Yes thats true.

In the past, sellers haven't been too savvy and have been selling themselves short. Buyers got fantastic deals on a regular basis and nobody was any the wiser. Now some of the sellers have got wise and are pricing themselves closer to their true equilibrium price which is signalling a shift on the board. You used to be able to invest in amazing deals every week. Now they're not amazing anymore, they're just good and some buyers don't like it. I've still yet to see a staking thread go up that I didn't think was +EV for investors though.


I'm sure you could, but I doubt any of them or their actions would have any relevance to poker tournament staking.

Wow dan really?

Never seen a minus ev thread?

Jesus.  

He's being polite I assume.

People putting their mates in DTD tournaments @1.4 and the requests that were laughed out the door but got some sympathy buyers obv not included.

Feel free to expand/start a new thread

fyp

Staking Board Guidelines


- You may offer to stake players, or ask for staking, or apply for an offer of staking, but only if you have a minimum of 300 forum posts and have been a member of the forum for at least three months.

- Posts should detail in full the proposal to be discussed, rates and amounts available to produce transparency in all instances.

- Begging posts will be removed

- Names of those staking an individual can remain confidential to PMs

- blonde Poker will not become involved in disputes as to the stake itself under any circumstances but will moderate public boards in line with its guidelines for flaming etc.

- This will be non-commercial for blonde Poker.

We have split off this debate from the proposal it was attached to

We have a "300 Posts" Rule", posted above with other guidelines, but this is being circumvented via off-thread bids. (Twitter, FB, PM's, friends etc), & this is making a mockery of the rules.

The Auctions, as structured, are also highly susceptible to ramping, in the opinion of some.

Normally, the Mods would make these decisions as to any changes required on here, but we think various blondes have a better handle than we do

Once any issues are debated on here the Mods can decide what to do on the basis of good debate & evidence.

Dubai raises some good points imo and Dan is pretty much spot on.

I don't like auctions simply because I don't want to ask for a piece then wait a couple of weeks to find out if I have been booked or not, then maybe have to ask again and so on and so on. Like on ebay, I never actually bid on anything I just click on the buy it now button. Small point but its enough to make me not bid on them.

Something that could be incorporated into the auction format ... A buy it now price

True and would probs make me get involved in an auction although you might as well put up a 'normal' staking request and sell at the buy it now price as that is a price you are clearly ok with.

Some people might not fancy giving their opinion given the way recent staking threads turned out.why not post a poll with options ranging from auctions are good fun thru to auctions should be banned from the staking board?

You don't see any reason why a business should look after it's regular customers?

this, i see pro's and cons for both methods of selling

James Keys stopped taking non blonde bids 1 hour before the auction and updated accordingly. Harder to fix. Bidding late is auction 101 but it does piss some people off.

Sandy

Thoughts on Herbies idea of a Dutch auction?

Lasts for say 2 hours, price starts at 2.0, goes down 1.99, 1.98 every minute until it's all sold out.

Haven't given any thought to the pros/cons for buyer/seller just thought it seemed quite fun.

I dont think this is making a mockery of the rules at all.  It is to stop unknowns from buying pieces on the boards on a forum where a lot of people dont know each other that well anyway so it reduces the chance of being grimmed.  If someone chooses to also sell on FB/twitter/by PM/another forum then they are taking sole responsibility for ensuring they can trust the people they are selling to.

I open up all my action on facebook and sometimes twitter and its mostly so that my friends who wouldnt have 300, or maybe any, posts on blonde can also buy for a sweat.

I wouldn't go quite as far as to say it makes a mockery of the system (to some extent if you don't trust the auctioneer to run a fair auction then don't bid), but it is does go against the 300-post rule which is a good one.

I think what Tighty mean't - well I KNOW what Tighty meant! - was that in FIXED PRICE staking threads, it's one thing, & as long as everyone understands caveat emptor, so be it.

The problem he/we & numerous individuals are alluding to is completely different, & applies particularly to auctions.

blonde have no problem whatsoever with staking auctions, but they ARE susceptible to ramping using the friends/Facebook/Twitter/PM route.

There is NO suggestion whatsoever that anyone has done this, but the problem is self-evident, & has caused much unrest & discussion, whuch has been largely under the radar until now.

We just think we need to re-address the whole subject, & I think this is right & proper.

I think the issue is that the 300 min posts was directed mainly towards sellers as that's where grimming is hardest to spot. As a seller then you operate no pay get stuffed policy. the policy iirc, was to stop the whole world trying to get staked and thus Blonde being swamped with staking that had little chance of fulfilment and more chance of hiding the genuine allowed threads.

Sandy

It's a inspired idea but he has a trade mark. Defo fun. :)

Yup.

That problem WAS solved by the 300 Post Rule, it stopped all the freeloaders arriving on blonde looking to exploit the board.

Our current concern is really towards Auctions, & trying to ensure they are fair & proper.

Several people made really good points about that earlier in the thread.

So, now we need to move the debate from "what is (potentially) wrong with it" to "how do we best guard against it?"

Just to add my tuppence worth. I prefer the fixed price stakes but am not averse to the idea of the auction even though I recently missed out on a bid due to a last minute text bid.

Would it be workable if the seller stated that x% would be available at auction to Blonde and that another percentage available to outside buyers? This would leave the %age available to Blonde buyers transparent. It wouldn't stop last minute bids (nature of the beast) but it would give both buyers and sellers what they want.

I understand this may bring added overhead the seller but at least they'd still have the option to sell outside of Blonde.
The non Blonde %age wouldn't matter to the Blonde buyer unless. of course, they bid outside of Blonde.

We could then keep the 300 post/3 month rule and the integrity of Blonde would continue allowing buyers and sellers the safety they deserve.

All "off blonde" auction bids have to be posted 1 hour prior to the close of the auction.

Acceptance of "Off Blonde bids" must be stated in the opening pitch which must not be edited.

You have to bear in mind that, as a buyer, if it looks bent you might be minded not to pay as you aren't paying in advance but after the close of the auction so there is a safegaurd in place by default.

Sandy

For sure, that would help would-be bidders know where they stand, & gives them the opportunity, if they so desire, to swerve it.

It would just be easier if, as Bobalike suggests, any Blonde staking is Blonde staking only. So if you want to sell 30% of yourself via blonde/FB/Twitter etc, then sell 10% on here.

Having pieces being sold elsewhere in the one staking can make it look as though shenanigans are afoot, even if they aren't.

We sometimes get staking threads where there'll be no replies for a while, then a '5% gone via PM/FB/carrier pigeon/etc' which always look a bit sus, even if they are genuine. In an auction, the suspicion would be even greater and, ultimately, the whole staking business on here does rely on implicit trust.

Staking in general involves a lot of trust as does any deal when one side stumps up cash in advance.

Sandy

To get over the PM skulduggery problem, can we not remove the 300 post rule, but make it 300 posts to "start" a topic in staking, assuming that's possible.

As transactions are paid in advance the integrity of the buyer is much less important than the seller, that will cut some of the problems.

agree the auction is obv abusable and don't really have much input on how to smooth that one out but what difference does it make to a normal proposal if "5% gone via carrier pigeon"

Think the implication is that people are trying to suggest there is demand in order to stimulate demand..  The only staking request I ever put up sold 20% by pm....it didn't sell anymore so I would suggest it doesn't work!!!!

I think the concern ( in Auctions, NOT fixed price offers) centres around "5% gone via carrier pigeon @ 1.silly".

yeh i see how auctions are open to abuse like this. andrew implied a normal fixed price offer on the forum which part sold off the forum looked "a bit sus" though and i don't really see what difference it makes.

ok yeh i guess that's a reason. seems negligible though (as u found out haha)

On an unrelated side note, a chap used to put up occasional "optimistic" staking Threads, & there'd be no replies for days, not one, so he'd Post "nobody interested?"

Umm, self-evidently, no Sir.....

Yeah, it was suggesting demand where there wasn't any - if someone is asking for staking on here I would expect that every bid is genuine and thus a reliable indicator of demand/progress of the staking.

Yeah, I don't bother any more :(

Does any of this aution/ fixed price malarky make me a better buy for anyone?

Keys???

If I decided to throw in a couple of oranges and some foreignly bought 'tat' are we onto a winnar?

Throw in a Tikayesque scarf and you'll be on to a winner.

Afaik no one has been grimmed on either side of an auction and both sides have been happy with the investments.

Team eureka guys gave been selling out asking at 1.5 and selling out quickly but D Morgan struggled. Let the market decide at what price people sell and how quickly. There is a lot of love on here at the moment with plenty of people not using Roi as the main reason to invest. Why should members who contribute to the site not take advantage of it.

Those who think these high mark ups are bad for the poker economy are talking bollocks. Higher mark ups are better for those being staked and if they can get it then good for them. If you ain't prepared to put up then shut up. Let people pay extra if that's what they want to do. If you are right they will run out of money and you can go back to buying action at spot.

I wouldn't worry Jase, because if somebody were to create a poker web auction business there'd be no reason to use the Blonde staking thread for auctions and the prob goes away.

but of course the blonde staking board is free to use, plenty read it and are happy to be using it. Great resource, auctions or not :-)

Here, here! God bless Blonde and all who sail in her.

So we can assume this is your last word on staking? 

Lol. Yeah good point

Jason makes a good point.


People like Dan M for eg who puts a lot of effort into the PHA an the whole forum, I think someone like that would be perfectly justified in charging and extra point on BLONDE staking boards because he puts a lot of time in to the site which everyone benefits from. The outcome is the forum flourishes because excellent posters continue to contribute + in return everyone sacrifices a small bit of EV when buying.

Hahahhahahahajahah

Sorry Jason

X

Ding dIng ding we haz winner

Yeah defo got owned or powned. But give it so gotta take it.

Dan @1.6 is for sure better value than some that have sold at similar rates for the main anyway. Problem is he is trying to sell 40% which is tough to shift in a big buyin

yh I was just using Dan as an example, I don't think 1.6 is all that unreasonable at all in the main, the majority reason it's selling slower than stato/mitch is that it costs more :)

I saw jcamby getting a lot of stock for selling at 1.7 on 2p2

Well I doubt you would get many people willing to xbook Dan v either of them

Haha yeah saw this. He would sell at 3.0 on blonde! I'd probably  xbook him v anyone who has sold on here and il lay the appropriate markup for his 1.7 v whatever the blonde sold at. So would pay 17/14 v Marc etc- and that might be the only one where I have worse of it and it's still close

Now can anyone help me with what he means by stock.... Does he mean stick or he sold a lot of shares. :)

I will have 300 posts by next year -- reserve now please

Dan is probably struggling because no one believes he's old enough to play in Vegas, at least for a good few years.

No. It's defiantly down to his Hendonmob :)

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=120361   >   http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=134376   > http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=207359

Yeah I already knew that. :) just in a pidd taking mood the last week or so

i was merking myself :)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/163/staking-selling-shares-online/giant-sunday-million-1421939/index3.html

LolDragonsDenAments

The man who won paid what he felt was acceptable for a one off punt and dont think he had a gun to his head.
Guess it proves something.

He is involved in quite a lot of staking on 2+2 as well as privately fwiw.

so to sell action at EPT Vienna I need to start posting...a lot...;-)

The concept of auctions completely turns me off tbh. Not saying it's not a fair way of doing things. I just like to think that when I buy action off someone I'm helping them out in some way (obv it's great if I get a good deal too but I've backed people in the past at what I'd consider roughly neutral ev because I like them and they're going through a tough time etc). I wouldn't like to feel that had been thrown back in my face by being outbid.

Auctions are filthy, I'd never participate in one. #Milkingthesystem