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Title: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on June 25, 2012, 02:00:34 PM Moved table shortly after the bubble burst, about 60-70 hands in everyone is playing failry tight, I have been raising and taking much more in the last 30-40 hands although I'm not sure if anyone is paying real attention. Haven't met any resistance other than peel, check folds. This is one of about 4-5 flops that has been shown since I have been at the table.
Only previous hand with the villain he has 10bb bvb and I jam KQ he snaps with A10. Any change in how we play it througout, but espically the river line. Seat 1: Oyshia (191038 in chips) Seat 2: Hero (159791 in chips) Seat 3: Sit or go (192644 in chips) Seat 4: undaDISGUISE (114063 in chips) Seat 5: kerity (196059 in chips) Seat 6: J Thirteen (137882 in chips) Seat 7: BadPlayerrr (41468 in chips) Seat 8: BadisBack (39216 in chips) Seat 9: samdix (171940 in chips) Oyshia: posts the ante 800 Hero: posts the ante 800 Sit or go: posts the ante 800 undaDISGUISE: posts the ante 800 kerity: posts the ante 800 J Thirteen: posts the ante 800 BadPlayerrr: posts the ante 800 BadisBack: posts the ante 800 samdix: posts the ante 800 Hero: posts small blind 4000 Sit or go: posts big blind 8000 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Hero[Qs Qd] undaDISGUISE: folds kerity: folds J Thirteen: folds BadPlayerrr: folds BadisBack: folds samdix: folds Oyshia: folds Hero: raises 10100 to 18100 Sit or go: calls 10100 *** FLOP *** [4c Jd 3d] Hero: bets 21500 Sit or go: calls 21500 *** TURN *** [4c Jd 3d] [Ts] Hero: bets 31500 Sit or go: calls 31500 *** RIVER *** [4c Jd 3d Ts] [Kh] Thanks Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: pleno1 on June 25, 2012, 02:05:52 PM check/call looks good, bunchhhhh of draws missed and its hard for him to have better than us?
Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on June 25, 2012, 02:09:46 PM check/call looks good, bunchhhhh of draws missed and its hard for him to have better than us? Any different on other streets? I'm thinking exactly the same, what about the side of caution in an event where I have been raising and taking it alot, will be chippin up alot without showdown. Any views on checking the turn? I was thinking of check jamming the turn? Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: Doobs on June 25, 2012, 02:28:53 PM Do you always raise so small out of the SB? I think I would raise more pre and bet more on the flop. I think this makes it more likely we get them in ahead.
Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: TL900 on June 25, 2012, 02:31:54 PM i like check/jamming the turn. This would be my standard here i think vs randoms
As played, i think shoving > c/calling river. We can get called by worse Jx Tx that gets stubborn for example (we would shove all our bluffs on this river). I think hes more likely to raise/get it in on flop or turn with draws which makes his missed draw range narrower and his Jx range a bigger part that he will check behind if we check sometimes (will also valueshove sometimes tbf) We valuetown ourselves by shoving sometimes, but I think its slightly better overall than check/calling, and I dont like check/folding. Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on June 25, 2012, 02:34:32 PM Do you always raise so small out of the SB? I think I would raise more pre and bet more on the flop. I think this makes it more likely we get them in ahead. I normally min or 2.5x depending on villain. Something that deep I tend to min as I will open a reasonable amount and on a table like that I'm expecting to get it through alot. Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: TL900 on June 25, 2012, 02:35:10 PM Do you always raise so small out of the SB? I think I would raise more pre and bet more on the flop. I think this makes it more likely we get them in ahead. sizings are fine imo, if we were deeper 2.5x bvb is my standard, but when we are <20bigs, i like making it a bit smaller both as steals to make them cheaper and with value, sometimes he will spaz jam thinking were FOS and sometimes he'll peel and stack/pot ratio will be ok to bet-ch/jam or b/b/s Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on June 25, 2012, 02:38:27 PM i like check/jamming the turn. This would be my standard here i think vs randoms As played, i think shoving > c/calling river. We can get called by worse Jx Tx that gets stubborn for example (we would shove all our bluffs on this river). I think hes more likely to raise/get it in on flop or turn with draws which makes his missed draw range narrower and his Jx range a bigger part that he will check behind if we check sometimes (will also valueshove sometimes tbf) We valuetown ourselves by shoving sometimes, but I think its slightly better overall than check/calling, and I dont like check/folding. Yeah check jam is what i would do a high-ish% of the time I have no idea why I didn't because I think that spot is really good for it as I assume it looks like a combo draw and I would expect to be called by Jx alot. There is also a good amount of bad cards on the river which will stop the action or put me in a tough spot, looking back I think the turn seems to small. Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on June 25, 2012, 02:39:33 PM Do you always raise so small out of the SB? I think I would raise more pre and bet more on the flop. I think this makes it more likely we get them in ahead. sizings are fine imo, if we were deeper 2.5x bvb is my standard, but when we are <20bigs, i like making it a bit smaller both as steals to make them cheaper and with value, sometimes he will spaz jam thinking were FOS and sometimes he'll peel and stack/pot ratio will be ok to bet-ch/jam or b/b/s +1 Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: Doobs on June 25, 2012, 03:07:45 PM Do you always raise so small out of the SB? I think I would raise more pre and bet more on the flop. I think this makes it more likely we get them in ahead. sizings are fine imo, if we were deeper 2.5x bvb is my standard, but when we are <20bigs, i like making it a bit smaller both as steals to make them cheaper and with value, sometimes he will spaz jam thinking were FOS and sometimes he'll peel and stack/pot ratio will be ok to bet-ch/jam or b/b/s All the bets look too small to me. You raise to 20k, then bet 35k on the flop then he gets it in with his jack regardless and still comes along with his draws. I am fairly sure I regularly bet more I these OOP spots. I suppose it avoids trickier spots, but playing bigger pots OOP can't be best practice, so I am not sure if I can claim this is solid poker. I can also confirm 3x the small blind pre does not get the BB to fold J6 off @#WSOP. Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on June 25, 2012, 03:16:26 PM Do you always raise so small out of the SB? I think I would raise more pre and bet more on the flop. I think this makes it more likely we get them in ahead. sizings are fine imo, if we were deeper 2.5x bvb is my standard, but when we are <20bigs, i like making it a bit smaller both as steals to make them cheaper and with value, sometimes he will spaz jam thinking were FOS and sometimes he'll peel and stack/pot ratio will be ok to bet-ch/jam or b/b/s All the bets look too small to me. You raise to 20k, then bet 35k on the flop then he gets it in with his jack regardless and still comes along with his draws. I am fairly sure I regularly bet more I these OOP spots. I suppose it avoids trickier spots, but playing bigger pots OOP can't be best practice, so I am not sure if I can claim this is solid poker. I can also confirm 3x the small blind pre does not get the BB to fold J6 off @#WSOP. Not sure about anyone else, but when I see someone open 3x around the 10-30bb I just think they are never folding. I was half expecting him to jam really wide here which is why I didn't want to 2x it as he can think 'I have more to steal' but didn't want it to look that big that I am always calling Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: Doobs on June 25, 2012, 03:31:19 PM Do you always raise so small out of the SB? I think I would raise more pre and bet more on the flop. I think this makes it more likely we get them in ahead. sizings are fine imo, if we were deeper 2.5x bvb is my standard, but when we are <20bigs, i like making it a bit smaller both as steals to make them cheaper and with value, sometimes he will spaz jam thinking were FOS and sometimes he'll peel and stack/pot ratio will be ok to bet-ch/jam or b/b/s All the bets look too small to me. You raise to 20k, then bet 35k on the flop then he gets it in with his jack regardless and still comes along with his draws. I am fairly sure I regularly bet more I these OOP spots. I suppose it avoids trickier spots, but playing bigger pots OOP can't be best practice, so I am not sure if I can claim this is solid poker. I can also confirm 3x the small blind pre does not get the BB to fold J6 off @#WSOP. Not sure about anyone else, but when I see someone open 3x around the 10-30bb I just think they are never folding. I was half expecting him to jam really wide here which is why I didn't want to 2x it as he can think 'I have more to steal' but didn't want it to look that big that I am always calling I am not going to 3x 10 bbs. It is too early in Vegas do wasn't reading the stack sizes properly when I put the first post. Still think you should be betting more on flop/turn. I always assumed that 3x ers tend to fold way more than they should. Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on June 25, 2012, 03:41:10 PM Do you always raise so small out of the SB? I think I would raise more pre and bet more on the flop. I think this makes it more likely we get them in ahead. sizings are fine imo, if we were deeper 2.5x bvb is my standard, but when we are <20bigs, i like making it a bit smaller both as steals to make them cheaper and with value, sometimes he will spaz jam thinking were FOS and sometimes he'll peel and stack/pot ratio will be ok to bet-ch/jam or b/b/s All the bets look too small to me. You raise to 20k, then bet 35k on the flop then he gets it in with his jack regardless and still comes along with his draws. I am fairly sure I regularly bet more I these OOP spots. I suppose it avoids trickier spots, but playing bigger pots OOP can't be best practice, so I am not sure if I can claim this is solid poker. I can also confirm 3x the small blind pre does not get the BB to fold J6 off @#WSOP. Not sure about anyone else, but when I see someone open 3x around the 10-30bb I just think they are never folding. I was half expecting him to jam really wide here which is why I didn't want to 2x it as he can think 'I have more to steal' but didn't want it to look that big that I am always calling I am not going to 3x 10 bbs. It is too early in Vegas do wasn't reading the stack sizes properly when I put the first post. Still think you should be betting more on flop/turn. I always assumed that 3x ers tend to fold way more than they should. Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: Pugwashed on July 03, 2012, 09:37:41 AM Jam now and I don't think its that close. This short he gets in draws on earlier streets pretty often so I think you have more missed draws by the time you get to the river which takes away some of his potential bluffs and increases your perceived bluffing range and by checking you lose value from the times he just checks back Jx or Tx that might call a shove
As for the turn I prefer just betting to check/jam. He checks back some stuff, you're more likely to stack him the times he has a J by just bet/bet/jam rather than bet flop, check/shove turn as he definitely checks back Jx sometimes. Randoms also check back draws sometimes as well. Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: the rage on July 03, 2012, 11:27:34 AM Would you consider folding if a King, Ace or Diamond show on the turn.
I think you got too fancy. You should bet more on the flop and check jam, or just jam the turn. As it is, you made your opponents decisions quite easy for him and allowed him to get ahead on the river. Who loves ya baby. Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on July 03, 2012, 01:50:45 PM Would you consider folding if a King, Ace or Diamond show on the turn. Think if a diamond comes I check call one and re evaulate as I have the Qd surely the line up to the river is pretty standard, being bet/bet? How do we know has caught up? Surely there arent many K in his range other than KJ? he may fold Kd 9d etc on the turn being this shallow, or jam them with added equity? Also you say just jam the turn, thats a massive over-bet which may fold a lot of hands i crush, and normally im only getting called by hands with huge equity over me or very good equity. So far I think pleno is right in it being a check call, although very open to different lines with good reasoning. Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: the rage on July 03, 2012, 02:25:32 PM My main point was that, in my opinion, your bet sizing way well have allowed villian to get there, or at least given him easy decisions along the way and so giving him less chance to make mistakes.
Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: LeeMcshane on July 03, 2012, 02:33:57 PM Personally i would be making my flop bet larger more of a 3/4 pot size bet due to draws, and looking at a check/jam on the turn vs a random. player.
If the guy then checks behind and the river is a brick i value bet (if i know he will call light) and i would check if i knew he would bet his missed draws on the river. If the river brings a diamond or a over card i think i have to check call depending on the size of his river bet. Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on July 03, 2012, 02:45:48 PM My main point was that, in my opinion, your bet sizing way well have allowed villian to get there, or at least given him easy decisions along the way and so giving him less chance to make mistakes. Small on the flop allows him to raise nearly anything all in with equity through stack sizes.. I like the flop sizing as he can shove lots of combos (also allows me to bluff smaller) possibly the turn sizing could be bigger, but it does allow a 'natural' shove on the river on alot of cards Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on July 03, 2012, 02:48:01 PM Personally i would be making my flop bet larger more of a 3/4 pot size bet due to draws, and looking at a check/jam on the turn vs a random. player. If the guy then checks behind and the river is a brick i value bet (if i know he will call light) and i would check if i knew he would bet his missed draws on the river. If the river brings a diamond or a over card i think i have to check call depending on the size of his river bet. Most river bets are surely going to be all in from him? I would be very confused if it was anything else as we both have under potsized bets left on the river? what bet wouldnt you call on the river and why? Say he bets 30k or is all in? Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: LeeMcshane on July 03, 2012, 03:07:00 PM If you give me a bit of time ii will explain a few different options as i cant explain it all on my phone atm. I will go over a couple of dfferent ways i would of played it and reasons.
Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on July 03, 2012, 03:07:36 PM If you give me a bit of time ii will explain a few different options as i cant explain it all on my phone atm. I will go over a couple of dfferent ways i would of played it and reasons. Awesome, Cheers Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: DMorgan on July 03, 2012, 09:13:35 PM Looks good and jam now
KT/KJ are the only hands that take this line that we lose to now I think, whereas he has a ton of Jx/Tx since I think most draws just raise/get it on the flop. Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: Junior Senior on July 03, 2012, 11:21:20 PM Rationale behind check/jam on turn? Seems like we only get called by better?
Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on July 03, 2012, 11:26:06 PM Rationale behind check/jam on turn? Seems like we only get called by better? So shallow though can people lay down Jx, or pairs and flush draws? Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: pleno1 on July 03, 2012, 11:47:11 PM If we c/jam turn then it looks like a draw so anything he bet for value will usually call.
Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: TL900 on July 04, 2012, 04:18:19 AM If we c/jam turn then it looks like a draw this, ch/jam's on these textures get snapped off pretty darn light Title: Re: ITM in the $100 Sunday Million Post by: iRaise on July 04, 2012, 04:22:32 PM If we c/jam turn then it looks like a draw this, ch/jam's on these textures get snapped off pretty darn light And this |