blonde poker forum

anyone seen this! complete jokes.

$5/$10 at the Rio pot $300 on a board of something like  Ad Ks Kc Td 8d or something and the first player open mucks, accidnetly revealing his hand as  4s 2s (the board) he then jokingly says "all in"

3 other people in the pot with $5,000 effective stacks call for a ruling and the first ruling is that the hand is live and the all-in stands, the player obviously is stunned asks for someone more senior and that person also rules the hand live and the all in standing!

This was a day after I was n the mega sat and say a guy go allin from the HJ, the sb said "Call" then BB folds and the BB then throws his cards up 1 of them exposes the other stays down and the dealer mucks them both, he had KK and everyone on one half of the table saw. The hand is ruled still live and they have every single card in themuck face up trying to decide which of the three mucked kings are his two, with the floorman saying "just use any two of those kings"

The place is a total, utter and embarrasing joke

Original OP from 2+2, op was at table, and is reputable.

"(Note: this situation drew a lot of attention in the Pavilion room & was notable enough that I feel it belongs in NVG, but if necessary mods can move it.)

I witnessed one of the strangest things I've ever seen while playing cash at the Rio and imo it brought up some interesting rules & ethics considerations. tl;dr alert

Prologue: It's a very loose 5/10 NLHE cash game at the WSOP that played much higher with double straddles, in-the-dark raises UTG, etc. All players were very deep with the biggest stack around $7k.

Act I: A hand comes up that is initially one of the smallest of the night. On the flop the pot is only ~$300 and all four active players check down a rainbow board of KQxx.

The river is a 10 and the first player to act is the $7k big stack - a nutty Asian guy who speaks in broken English. He stands up and pitches his cards at the muck face up, and we see they're 4s2s -a hand that can't even beat the board. After the hand hits the felt in front of the dealer, Asian Guy jokingly announces "All-in". We roll our eyes at his attempt at humor and the next player to act reaches for chips to take a stab at the pot.

Act II: Suddenly one of the other active players stops the action and tells the dealer that the Asian guy is indeed all-in. We murmur and look at each other, but another active player chimes in, agreeing. Now everyone is chattering, with some players (including me) pointing out that there is absolutely zero chance that the Asian guy's intention was to move all-in, and others claiming the hand is live and that it doesn't matter what his intention was.

The dealer shrugs and explains his understanding of the rules: a face-up hand is live even if it hits the muck. Chaos ensues and the Asian guy goes bananas shouting "I muck! I muck hand!" over and over while reenacting the gesture of throwing the cards away. A floorman is called and once the action is recounted he snap-rules that the dealer is correct and that the hand is live. The shouting goes to 11, a sizable crowd gathers, and Asian Guy has a conniption, demanding confirmation from the senior supervisor. But once called, the senior floorman snap-rules that the snap-rule is correct: the hand is live.

So to recap: Asian Guy has moved all-in for $7,000 into a $300 pot with the nut-low face-up on the table and three players yet to act.

Act III: Player 2 fist-pump insta-ships for ~$5k. The final two players curse the Poker Gods that their hands likely aren't strong enough to win and that stacks aren't deep enough to profitably overcall, and fold. Player 2 flips up J9 for the second nuts and drags a $10,000 pot. Asian Guy howls into his cell phone for a minute, grabs the remnants of his stack and disappears.

Fini

Was this a good ruling? Should the floor have superseded the letter of the law in favor of the spirit of the game and the man's obvious intentions?

If you're the 2nd player to act, what hands do you ship? If you're the 3rd player to act and the 2nd player ships, with what hands do you call? If you're the 4th player and both Players 2 & 3 ship, with what hands to you call?

And if you're Asian Guy, what would be your preferred method of suicide?"

(http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/bizarre-hand-questionable-ruling-rio-bonus-questions-nvg-edition-1220150/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also a hand took place where both people have the nut flush, with two  Aspades in the deck. Sounds like a joke in the room tbh (linked here; http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/2-players-flop-nut-flush-playing-cash-wsop-1219323/)

This is the year after a huge fuss was made over the quality of cards, marked cards etc etc.

Not sure what's worse, the ruling or Player 2 insta shipping with 2nd nuts, wtf ?

Apparently OP describes positions on river as: Chinese fish, 40y/o grinder who speaks up, 40y/o rec dude who doesnt speak, another grinder.

Would have been awesome if rec dude snaps with AJ, and gives chinese fish his 5k back.

Also, tank for 3 mins with J9 has to be optimal if your happy calling. Not sure i would be, depends on roll i guess.

Perhaps it is a good idea to play all slow with frozen expression these days. Trying to have fun can be expensive. Ruling allows clear angle shoot which is what you pay the casino to protect you from.

Goes without saying that it's absolute filth to call for a ruling here.

Shouldn't expose cards when action hasn't finished.

Sandy

Shouldn't cost him 5k to find that out

As bad as the ruling is, the players response is as bad if not worse (prob worse imo). If that happened to me in a game and I were one of the 3 other players in the pot, firstly obviously i'd be fighting the corner of the 42 guy, secondly if i had the nuts / won the pot I would be snap giving the guy his money back.

Absolutely horrendous from the other players in the hand... i can just about accept floor staff making that ridic ruling, but scum-of-the-earth people calling for his hand to be live in such a clear spot like this is just theft.

Whilst i completely agree its hard when the ruling is made, and you have a roll under 50k$ to turn down 5k though. Can see many people saying I wouldn't when in actually its harder to turn it down in that spot!

Technically I'm sure the ruling is when your hand is exposed you lose all right to make an aggresive action?

wrong

lol internet players 'very deep game' biggest stack had 700bb, rest of his post thus holds no credibility

A few years ago you used to slag off live poker something rotten. Now it's all lol internet players eh?

Could this be down to times are tough out there post Black Friday, so angle shooting can be less frowned upon now, because in all technicality this is a legitimate play? Just so rotten morally. Is there a trend developing for angle shooting more so than in prev years from any experienced live players views?

If I had every penny I had in the world on the table i wouldn't even consider taking the guys $5k and i'd class anyone who even thinks about doing it a massive dick tbh

There was an earlier thread on where do you draw the line on using the rules, this is a prime example. The floor has been put in an awkward spot here and the guy who asked for the ruling is totally using the letter of the rule here.

It is a terrible angle by the player but he is playing to the rule implemented by the Rio. I have no doubt everyone knew it was a joke but unfortunately there are players out there who will take total advantage of these type of things and insist the rule be enforced to their advantage.

Totally horrendous rule to enforce in this situation

This definitely falls under rule 1, FFS have some common sense. Spirit of the game, fairness, simplicity and tradition are the paramount rules. TD is a chimp!

It was a cash game Rich, but agree that commonsense has to be applied. Its this specific rule  of the Rio which is bad

OK sorry, not TD then but floor is a raving chimp lol

Mike Caro got it right with his rules

SPIRIT OF THE GAME.
All rules shall be interpreted and all rulings shall be made with the intent that the spirit rather than the letter of the rule be followed, and the spirit of all rules is that the fairest possible outcome shall be achieved. At no time shall interpretation or strict application of a rule be used to achieve an unjust result. The spirit of the game shall be considered the best interest of the game.

BASIC PRINCIPLES OF RULES.
All rules shall be interpreted in the context of the four basic principles of Poker Rules: Fairness, Efficiency, Simplicity and Tradition. Given that the foregoing principles are considered, all rules shall be interpreted in favor of promoting action as opposed to inhibiting action.

DECISIONS FINAL.
The decision of the floorperson is final, and not subject to appeal.

GROUNDS FOR EXPULSION.
The following shall be grounds for immediate expulsion from the card room: verbally or physically threatening any patron or employee; destruction of cardroom property (including cards); throwing cards at an employee or patron. This list of grounds for expulsion is not all-inclusive; management shall always have the authority to expel a player for any grounds it deems reasonable.

PRIORITY OF PARAMOUNT RULES.
These Paramount Rules shall supersede all other rules.

PURPOSE OF RULES.
The purpose of rules is not to create a fixed regimen where there is a penalty for the slightest infraction, but rather to foster an environment where the game is honest and fair to all. Although a player is responsible to know the Rules of the game, it is not intended that an innocent or inexperienced player should be punished for his ignorance, but rather that the game be run in an efficient and impartial way. The Paramount Rules serve the spirit of the game, and all rules must be interpreted accordingly

Just to be clear the board isn't right in OP, the J9 called with the second nut straight on a unpaired board

Best line is obv to call with the J9 and give the guy his money back

Expensive lesson learned.

The all in and the subsequent actions are horrendous . He did break the rules with players still to act though.

SAndy

My understanding is that the rules are considered guidelines for the T.D.s to use rather than to take literally on every account and that if required, Jack can apply common sense to assure the correct decision is made.

This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I was asking about with the thread 'how far is ok with using the rules?'

I think a LOT of people would call for it when its $5k, what if its $50k+? obv then it gets into a whole nother level of security/ problems..

but surely the ruling/ behavior should be the same for $5 or $5mil?

someone did this to me id never play with them again and make it a shard as possible for them to ever get in a game again. absolute scum and cheats/stealing money.

fuck their lives if 5k is this important for them in the grand scheme of things.

scum.

He is reverse freerolling himself if he dos that.

Apparently thee guy to his left called for a ruling and when thee J9 went allin that guy said "OMG this is my pot".

Dwelld up for a couple of minutes and folded.

Quite possible that guy could have had KJ and the J9 player could lose his money with only the chance of winning the pot before thee allin.

poker used to be a game of sportsmanship and fairplay, but lately theres been a lot of stories come out with really sheds the game in a bad light, and long term, it puts the game in jeopardy through new player loyalty to the game, and further push new players away from the game..

secondly, the person who shoved with J9 and didnt give the money back should be water boarded, if he wants the money that bad, he should become a rent boy and his image would probably be better, i would be disgusted with every other player on the table not taking umbridge with the outcome also, absolute disgrace

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

naivety at its best right? specifically speaking from personal experiences in live poker

I'm sure there are places where poker is a game of sportsmanship and fair play, but I haven't seen one myself since my home game at uni in '07

sorry state of affairs

ive played the leics 1/2, 2/5 nl game at gala casino for the last 3 years as well as private cash games in the leicester area , and nearly 98-99% of disputes havr  been handled with the correct outcome as a result, maybe i've been playing in a vacuum spot where this isn't the norm, i admit i have a lot to learn and am still fairly naive

Not sure you can use Leicester Gala and Sportmanship and Fair Play in the same sentence.

Cliquey and Angle Shooting more the norm.

If we are referring to the Asian guy jokingly going all in with his 7k stack and his hand being ruled live, Then no-one with an ounce of integrity, decency and compassion for a fellow human in trouble would take advantage for their own greedy benefit. Quite simply discusting.

As said by WotRthechances, any player with near nuts or a strong hand should call and return the guys money.

Seen ecactly the same thing on the cash tables of the old Gutshot in London. Player (well known infact) was pissed, going all in every hand, sa with about £3k at a 1/2 game, he does it again when walking down the stairs, and the joke this time was on him as the dealer forced him all in, all the table to act. Mate of mine wakes up with AK, he's sat with about 32k, deep for him, but he can't put it down, so pissed player rolls over 3 6 or something, catches a 6 on the flop, which has my mate cursing his luck, that is until the K fell on the river.

The player was far from happy, but renowned for playing pissed like this. So no one else was bothered.

Was there any background like this to the OP's post?

Got to admit if I was the Asian guy in this instance I would simply have picked up my chips and headed for the door,all the while assaulting anyone who tried to stop me with groin high Kung Fu kicks and straight fingered throat punches. What occured had nothing to do with poker, it was straight up robbery, aided and abetted by the Rio.

What would your response be if the asian guy who open mucked had been doing this since he sat down, showing his cards, and saying all in jokes. As a dealer and TD there's a point where the game needs some sense of order, this instance I described a few posts up was reached after this piss head had been messing around for a few hours, slowing the game, and generally pissing everyone off. All the TD did was enforce the rules, if it's a case this was a one off, then harsh ruling for sure, they robbed him. If not and it was more as I've described, what can you do to shut these all in jokers up, and stop them open mucking when the hands still live. Well you force them all in,the asian guy won't be messing around in games again that's for sure.

All I know is as described in the OP, and as described I revert to the actions as previously described.

If it was a one off joke, and clear to all then the Asian guy did well to just shout into his phone, i'd be calling some mates for sure and telling them i'd just been robbed. Although I wouldn't be messing around saying all in and chucking my cards face up into the muck. Taking advantage of such stupid behaviour, well that's just worse than the TD's decision.

IMO morale of the story is don't f**k about when there ARE rules that COULD be enforced...

'Messing about' in this way is foolish, borderline stupid and you're waiting for someone to enforce the rules of the GAME you are playing.

All that should matter is the intention of the player. If it is unclear, what is said should be enforceable.

This was a situation where - going by the OP - the literal interpretation of what was said clearly wasn't the player's intended action. In such a case, any ruling that differs from enforcing the player's INTENDED action is a misapplication of the rules.

If the player has been warned for doing it before, that would be different. That doesn't seem to have been the case here, though.