blonde poker forum

Gaelle Baumann opened for a min-raise to 60,000 from under the gun, and the action folded to Andras Koroknai, who moved all in from the small blind. Gavin Smith folded from the big blind, and thinking that the action was completed, Koroknai mucked his hand.

When he realized his mistake, he pulled back one of his cards, but the other was irretrievable. A floorperson was called to the table, and the dealer explained what had happened. Tournament Director Dennis Jones was called over to make the ruling, and upon hearing the story, he stood silently for half a minute.

Smith, who was standing next to him, began laughing at the difficulty of the decision.

After a moment for thought, Jones informed the table that Koroknai would have to forfeit 60,000 chips to Baumann, but that he wouldn't be eliminated completely.

"Really?" Smith blurted.

Baumann was also confused with the ruling, so Jones pulled out his iPhone and called Vice President of the World Series of Poker Jack Effel. After a two-minute conversation, Jones hung up, and announced to the table that the original ruling would stand.

"You're not losing your tournament life," Jones told Koroknai.

In Jones' explanation to the table, he cited the "integrity of the tournament" as the major factor in the decision.

According to Smith, Baumann showed two kings.

http://uk.pokernews.com/live-reporting/2012-world-series-of-poker/event-61-no-limit-hold-em-main-event/

opens the door for a huge angleshoot

shit you called? well i mucked my hand when the bb folded...

The players at fault, he mucked, after announcing all in. Strictly he loses everything, but the first rule of TDA is about the TD having the right to rule in favour of whatever is best for the fairness of the game. Pretty sick if he's knocked out here, depends on the situation, but he's lucky that's for sure.

I assume he mucked before the fella with the kings had done anything.  So don't see how this can be used as an angle shoot.  I think the ruling is fine in the circumstances though obv the kings fella isn't going to be happy.  Way better ruling than the other thread

Ha, the KK fella is a chick.

Durr.  I wouldn't mind but I actually watched her getting interviewed on espn this morning and hadn't clicked. 

Confused as this is a standard ruling, the difficulty would be if  Beaumann had said call before the cards were mucked.

Not sure it's quite so standard.

that ruiling is totally wrong think. up to the player to keep up with the action.

and defo at that level

I agree that it is the players responsibility, however no where in the op does it say the bet was called. The mistake seems to have been noticed before Beaumann makes the call. What you seem to be implying is that Beaumann wins the pot without risking putting her chips on the line to make the call. Koroknai has forfeited the call but receives the last uncalled bet back.

I think the ruling was wrong, it may be harsh but the person suffering the biggest loss of equity in the hand was the original raiser, and she had done nothing wrong.

Worst case he should have lost 90k, he was raising so a min raise should have been enforced.

Even though it hadn't been called?

The original raiser has already won a called raised pot without going to showdown, how much equity do you want?

Her action had been taken away from her, she wasn't given the opportunity to make the call.

It may appear fair to the guy making the mistake, but it was the complete opposite to the utg.

She was also not given the opportunity to fold to the all-in.

This is a very tough ruling, if they're not forced to be all in with no cards (their own fault), then the player should maybe be given a round penalty for failing to keep up with the game. This way they are shown to be penalised, and at least will follow the game more closely in future.

Just making him pay off the small amount from the lady UTG seems open to angle shooting possibilities. What if he had seen the reaction of the UTG limper, and decided to much his hand quickly, not totally impossible.

You are quite right, but at least she should have been given the opportunity.  An opportunity that was through no fault of her own denied her.

My view is that all the benefits of this decision fell for the all in guy.

He put all of his chips into the pot, he mucked his own cards, he was given most of his chips back, he forfeited 2BB, when if fact it should have been a minimum of 3.  He made the mistake and got the benefits of the decision. 

She lost all ability to continue in the hand, which indirectly impacts on the remaining players as well.

I must be wrong then

I'd expect a bit more from someone who advertises card room manager in their signature. How would you now rule, giving the opinions expressed here?

LOL Exactly the same as Jack Effel as I think I have explained

You are not

Ruling seems fine to me.

To those that say you could angle shoot... Yes, of course you can. This is where we use our discretion. If we suspect there has been angle shooting then we can rule differently.

So no penalty for the player, sigh, maybe there is a need for that new book on the rules of poker. The 'I must be wrong' statement wasn't meant to be taken literally then, was hoping from some insight into the thoughts and details taken into account when making this kind of decision, especially in the biggest (well 2nd now in money), tournament in the world.

Personally I believe it was the right decision in this case, but not warning the player and issuing a penalty, why would the TD not do that?

He made another big error yesterday and was given a one round penalty.


From under the gun, Andras Koroknai raised to an unknown amount and Fabrizio Gonzalez reraised from the next seat to 305,000. Play folded back to Koroknai and he moved all in for approximately 2.4 million. According to Paul Volpe, Gonzalez asked for a count, but Koroknai thought he said call and turned his hand over to reveal the  Kh Qh. The floor was called and it was ruled that Koroknai would be given a one-round penalty. Gonzalez folded his hand.
 
This is the second big mistake Koroknai has made deep in the 2012 World Series of Poker Main Event. Yesterday, he missed action in front of him and moved all in when he didn't see Gaelle Baumann raise before mucking his hand before she had acted. No penalty was given then. This time around, he'll have to sit out for the next orbit.

Read more: http://www.pokernews.com/live-reporting/2012-world-series-of-poker/event-61-no-limit-hold-em-main-event/day6/chips.38860.htm

Warn the player what exactly? They will have already realised they messed up. They've lost some chips. Don't really see the need for further action in this instance, though I wouldn't argue it had a penalty been given either.

Kind of makes my point, doesn't always work giving penalties as some people just don't learn, or like to continue angle shooting, but maybe a penalty after the first error would have made for a more thoughtful player. Seems like poker karma paid him a visit here though.

To take more notice about what's going on of course. And to make it clear his mistake could have cost him all his chips, and he wouldn't be so lucky next time. I feel the french lady got the raw deal here and she did nothing wrong, if she was holding KK that is.

There you go. Penalty for the 2nd offence. Seems fair enough to me. Amy more offences increase the penalty or dq if appropriate.

Seems fair to me too.  Two sensible rulings.

Losing all his chips through a first error seems a little dispropotionate.  I suppose jackinbeat is right though, if he had lost all his chips on the first error, he wouldn't have made the second.

Fair enough, they got their eventually. Did you have to bring my ex Amy into this though...

The second offence is definitely a penalty as he has exposed his cards with a player to act. Not only would he get a penalty for this offence, I would be having a word in his shell about his over enthusiasm. In both cases if he had waited for the dealer he wouldn't be in this situation. I would be making sure that I have explained clearly that his over enthusiasm may cost him his tournament life if it is done again.

But late imho, I'd have given him a few hands away from the table after he mucked and then tried to retrieve his cards from the muck. Doesn't have to be a round penalty, a quiet word with the player, especially when the stakes are so high can prevent similar events occurring. I actually think the first infraction was worse in that he benefited from his own stupidity. The second one, well at least the player not at fault got the benefit from that.

I would almost be certain the floor would have spoke to him after he mucked his cards prematurely.

Also, some might think him paying 60,000 without any cards acted as a penalty in itself.

I doubt the French lass with KK did.

Gah. Silly phone!

Notice the guy who got saved here is 2nd in chips and a November 9 member! WOW talk about a lucky break! she busts 10th!

There is no karma in poker..







hmmm just noticed that's my 300th post, not sure how I feel about that.

10%?

he also busted her in 10th

I fear for his safety, do not mess with French Women, painful experience has told me.

Wow. Love these type of stories

Still a better story than Twilight.

:)

or 50 shades of grey

Common sense and fairness should be considerations in all rulings and under the circs described I think both were applied.

I don't see how you can have cast iron responses to all situations as there are usually different factors at play.

Ie sometimes a player announces all in but does not push any chips forward and can be covering their cards with their hand. It can be very easy for a player around the table not to have heard the verbal declaration and thinks he is opening the pot himself. I use this as an example of why rules have to be flexible and applied taking into account all factors, fairness and the spirit of the game etc.