blonde poker forum

Had a hand in the main, which I thought was really hard. Spent most of the tournament at my own funeral anyways :(

I have 19k after some nasty hands, 50/100

I open  Ahrt Kh to 300 UTG, get called in three spots before the BTN makes it 800. People have been doing this all level and I really don't know what it means I think that it must be strong, but then I cant fathom why he wouldn't squeeze to more if he had a big hand, but then it's also possible he doesn't want to over-infllate, but then it's likely to be 5 way OTF so will be inflated anyways?? :S I really don't know lol - the guy is a mid 40's quuite well dressed guy, would think not a pro but has been playing well - as has all the table tbh.

I call, IDK what everyone thinks or 4bet/folding had many good players tell me different things, I opted for the call purely because I was completely unsure of anything lol + two of the callers in between are v good high stakes cash regs I have played a lot with. All call so 5 way to the flop.

 Aspades Qh 3s (4,150)

Chk,chk,chk,chk, 3better bets 2,850. I call, folds round to the last person to act who calls as well. That player is ~26-28 wearing headphones handles chips like he's played a lot and again has been playing well from what I can see.

 Qc (12,750)

chk, chk, chk.

3d (12,750)

chk, chk, bets 8,800

I have basically 15k exactly (3 orange chips + change) he knows my exact chips as well (he asked before he bet) he did not however, ask the other player in the hand, who has about 25k - he covers us both comfortably.

What do you all think?

EDIT:

the queen was the non spade card OTF, I think that is quite relevant.

I 4b/f pre, and I b/f the river

Edit if I'm you

peeling is fine, deffo dont wanna 4bet/fold.  Feels like you're chopping at best, fold river although all summer Ive seen people overvalue massively in the wsop

I think specifically for the main event calling pre >>> 4betting.

I'd bet river too.

4b looks good. Would look super strong and can fold to 5b comfortably. Hard to win the hand 5 way oop!

I think bet/fold river too.

I want to Negreanu the river but it's a fold. He has AQ, AA, QQ sometimes. Guy in the middle is a small problem though not too concerned. Villain probs has AK too though.

Defs flat pre, your hand plays pretty well 5-way due to its suitedness. Check/fold flop.

4b >>>>>>>>>>>>> flat imo

When he makes it this sizing and given our blockers I think this is QQ/JJ a huuuuuuge %age of the time. If this is true then we should for sure 4b because he's going to fold JJ pre a lot of the time, sometimes QQ if you make your 4b size fairly big. Sometimes he'll have AA/KK but he'll always 5b AA so I don't think him having KK should be of huge concern.

If my assertion that he has QQ/JJ is true then him calling is totally fine. Even if it comes 9 high you can just bet big, rep the AA/KK cos I think its highly unlikely that he's going to stack QQ in level 1 of the main event with this preflop action. If he is wider than QQ/JJ pre then 4b gets even better.

As played I think flop is a c/f. With the combination of the preflop action and the fact that its 5 ways to the flop I think he bets the flop with worse 0% of the time. With his turn and river lines I think his range is just QQ, AA, sometimes AQ.

Betting at any point postflop is an absolute disaster imo

At the time I thought betting the river would be horrible, quite a few people wanna bet but I just cant find any merit in it, anyone have any decent pro's for river b/f?

I know this is going off tangent a bit, but after the hand I got to thinking, what would I have done on an ACE river :D

I very strongly disagree with the bolded parts. I also don't usually try to make people fold overpairs, and that will be your only option if you do 4b pre.

folding the flop. I did consider this OTF, my stack is a very tricky size and Im OOP playing guessing games vs what's prolly just a legit very good hand, the more I think the more I agree this is a pretty good option. I think my 1 red card on the flop disauded me folding, which on reflection is defo a mistake as the P2S seems way to shallow by that point to be paying too much to BD equity

Ok, then what do you think is a reasonable range to give villain pre?

The only way that I can see flatting and taking a flop out of position 5 ways having better expectation than 4betting is if we think that villain has KK+? Which from his sizing would infer that he's trying to induce a light 4b...which vs that range AKs would be. Even the biggest whale is going to be aware that when he makes it this size he's going 5 ways to the flop. That takes some weight away from my argument too - I think he'd probably make it bigger with QQ and JJ too but if we're giving him any wider than that then we can just 4bet for value - plus we have blockers to the KK+

4betting obviously gets really messy if we're getting peeled light but I just don't see a random punter peeling a big 4bet with the 99/QJs here and making life difficult postflop in level 1 of the main event. Its hardly uncommon to see people making big preflop folds in this particular tournament.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree but I really don't see him having a preflop range here that flatting is going to have better expectation against than a 4bet/cbet.

I personally think river is misplayed. I think the best line on river is bet folding then 2nd best check folding. Guy who overcalls most likely hands are ax and 3better can have anything. I think if we bet 5400 on river we can rep all the missed draws and get looked up by pretty much any ax hand. If were raised they always have us beat so is an easy fold as the nuts is in our range so would be suicidal for them to run a huge bluff here imo. If we dont think our hand is good enough to bet fold I think we should be check folding rivers. So I think we get more info from betting than checking, as if they call we should be pretty much always good and never good when we are raised and we get to cheaper showdown by leading which I think is better in spots were not extremely confident where we are

I dont think this is true of spots where the range of hands that beats us is so nutted (basically just QQ and AA)

Hey guys

What our flatting range pre and if he makes it 1200 what's our flattog range?

flatting the 3b >>>>>> 4b/folding... all streets played well imo... im deffinatly bet/folding the river

this seems resonable!

Hey!

Hello Patrick.

This question is fun, because in actual fact I personally would be AT LEAST calling preflop here so close to 100% of the time it's unreal - I would be opening really tight (which I was) however I'm >25, was wearing a bright orange hoody and have quite a small amount of pretty inconsistent facial hair so our PF 3-better would by NO MEANS think this was the case. 

Still not sure about this hand lol, lots of people having some very different opinions, which is always pretty interesting.

Pre-Flop....

Everyone who has said 4bet/fold and has given a reason has made a lot of sense. Isolate HU (very awkward visibility 5way OOP) maybe even take it down PF a bit which is always a win (speahly given 3 dead calls in there) easy fold to the 5bet. All really good reasons.

Then the just calling camp, 5way pot with a super nutty hand, we're unlikely to make too many mistakes post-flop (will be lots of easy decisions) lower variance with my slightly damaged stack in level 1 of the worlds lonngggggest tournament - the risk of AK 5betting us, the risk of one of the 3 good players (2 of whom are VERY good) having flatted a premium hand, saves the horrible, means I don't have to start bluffing people off over-pairs which is pretty high V in this tourney.

I asked Middy and he said "I would 4bet/fold AKo and just flat AKs" - I think my thought process at the time was that I was just a bit conffused by the size of the squeeze, so took a cautious approach.

Flop...

chk/fold has been championed by a few people, I like it, can see it very possibly being the best line, but I'm just not 100% convinced.It's the main event, people can always be up to sillyness and  don't think your average (admittedly this guy was playing well) main event player will be going off 3street bombing light in level 1 so i feel like we'll be getting a  decent feel for him no the turn. Vs prolly just sick range/not closing the action/stack sizes and so on though folding defo has a lot going for it.

River...

lots of people have called for a bet/fold. Would really like to persue this a little further cos I personally think betting the river is really bad. I would love to be convinced otherwise though because in game I knew I'd LOVE to be able to bet because I know if he bets I'm in an absolute coffin (as was proven to be the case) my main problem with betting is just the simplest things, I have exactly the hand from a super strong range it looks like I have, can barely think of any hands I can bet for value against (he should never have AJ, and the guy in the middle should pretty much never have an ACE (hoffific if he does), any Qx beats me and I think it's still REALLY possible for me to be beaten (obv loving it when the turn checks through, but middle guy have very feasibly have Qs Xs and the 3better can DEFO have checked the turn back with AA and QQ. Also have a pretty nasty stack size (1.2x pot)

Results of the hand : I folded.

Don't know what to think about it either. Felt decent at the time then started to really feel like we had the same hand after some small amount of probing I did :D

Looking forward to seeing some replies!

we cant be bluffed, we set our showdown price, we extract from some heros and the odd random AXs squeeze that likely checks back.

I disagree that anyone in this hand can or will reasonably expect either of the other players to be bluffing enough on this board run to hero worse

i was told I was always thinking I was right in PHA posts so tried to quickly change my tone lol

but hey karl

Pretty unique scenario but oop 5 ways with 2 v good players inbetween i think i prefer 4betting than flatting. When you come out betting or c/r 5 way i can't see ppl making many mistakes IP in multiway pots. Not only this but im not giving the btn much credit with his sizing and 3 balling the btn.

wug on flop donk?

My argument is just that we are never going to be able to extract much value oop vs good players when we flop the nuts or a big draw. Even if we elect to play it in a passive manner, its not like sum1 is going to take off 5 ways bluffing.

absolute gold

I'd bet and call the river myself, but I'm a fish so yeah.

Those saying check fold on flop: why!?

I 4 bet pre for sure and fold to the 5 bet. Although flatting has merits and is fine.

yer thats mad

i agree

im just playing devils adv. also the counter-arguments are better/more applicable here.

 personally its a no-brainer 4b; if the button is sqzing 4V hes gonna go waaaay bigger to prevent a domino effect 5way.

With reflection I think we should b/f flop 100% getting value from the guys on between with either axcc kinda hand or flush draws. It's me so maybe thu make a bad peek with gutter or qx.

What kind of sizing are we looking at on a 4bet?

2200ish

I figured as much, I really think we get folds an absurdly small amount of the time if we 4bet and I think we're in tons of awkward spots postflop if the 3bettor peels, which I think is very likely with his full 3betting range possibly including KK+

I think its pretty important to keep pots small in these spots early in the main as there is just gonna be so many better spots throughout the tournament.  Which is why I think its fine to just peel the 3bet and play fit or fold post.

Peeling pre is obviously fine and very standard normally. Against a fish which his 3-bet sizing suggests he is, I might be tempted to do something unconventional and click it real small. Makes the two good players less likely to call because the action has been re-opened. Hopefully also serves to 'domesticate' the initial 3-bettor and have him play face-up against us (i.e only 5-bet aces and play straight-forwardly post-flop.) Just to reiterate tho peeling is fine and going five-way isn't the end of the world.

River is an easy check-fold. I would say we have the best hand very rarely and can never get called by worse. I expect him to have Aces full or quads most of the time.

Randomly looking at some thought processes but very interesting general hand reading by all itt.

Not sure how nobody has said the guy v likely has ak and we should shove to fold chops out.

Btw agree with Sam about click/folding pre to isolate ourselves hu with the weaker player.

Have the hands been revealed yet?

Annoying that because of his raise size and the fact this has been seen a few times before we can't nail his range down specifically at this point. You say he's been playing ok up to this point so it seems very unlikely he has AJ. AQs seems a bit of a budget 3bet here but I can imagine in 2012 people would do this. Maybe he's just really strong and isn't really aware of correct sizing and this is why I am not sure you can happily 4bet pre. Earlier posters said have just automatically assumed that he can't be really strong because of the sizing but I think this is possibly wrong.

This is all assuming that the guy is confirmed not clueless but his flop bet should be really strong. AK would still be a bad cbet but I'm not going to rule that out. BTN should be c-betting AA and QQ (or if he somehow has AQ) or tripling off to try and get people to fold AQ/33 (gl with that in WSOP ME 2012).

Think now that there is only one combo of AA and QQ it's a simple call. If he has any rogue queens in his range then we can't rule out bluffs too because in theory he shouldn't have any single queens in his range. I'd be fully expecting him to check back AK here as it just seems way too thin given he's cbet the flop 5 way and AJ should be in the muck from the 4 people he's cbet into.

Call, don't think raising is necessary at all since he so rarely has AK and his line is either dumb, has quads or he's making a complete stab in the dark bluff.

BTW This hand is over 2 years old now so you can kindly reveal :D.

Dave folded

What a fish

Yeh really unsure how folding was an option tbh call>jam>fold imo

Wow this is a long time ago, yeh I remember this hand, and I remember the players too.

A few interesting things about this hand, firstly the other player in the hand by the river was John Depa, who IV since gotten good pals with, he's a really really good player and especially strong at live poker.

Preflop I really like the sound of 4betting to fold now, makes a lot of logical sense, not because I think we get action from the BTN with a range we crush (I don't think that at all actually) but we could freeze two v good players out of the pot and might even just take it down there which is pretty nice given how venerable our hand is from a playability angle - and ofc technically AK is one of the best "bluffing hands" for purely blocker value reasons, usually however the fact that 1) AK is too strong to fold and 2) you get jammed on wider these days makes this not the case generally. However if there was ever a situation where that WOULD be the perfect environment/situation for that to be the case then it's level one of the main event :-)

I know why I'd have flatted 2years ago and can't blame myself.

I dunno how there is any option but to call the flop as played?

Onto the river, whereas I get the point about jamming we have to remember that this is level 1 of the main event, a ten day tournament and were 95minutes in, there is little to no chance that jamming is +$EV given that just being in this tournament with 150bb gives you so much equity, if there is even a 5% chance he has AQ, AA or QQ then it's throwing money in the air by jamming I'm sure.

With this is mind I did fold, I didn't see a chance I was beating any value bets, although obviously could chop with a decent chunk of it, I also thought there was a decent chance John had an A or a Q (Qs Xs) and felt strongly the guy wasn't bluffing... So I folded as couldn't make a reasonable case for anything else...I didn't even consider jamming and wouldn't today I don't think.

Here's something interesting about this hand, I asked John about the hand later and he confessed he had Ax Ks ... He folded behind me....

He said when he folded he thought my hand was 95%AK and 5% AJ.

I don't know if I actually had a read the guy wasn't bluffing, or the fact John hero folded AK after has hindered my remembering, but assuming I don't have that read are we saying I should be calling, even for 1/2 my chips at this point?

Three guys in pot, I assume guy on BTN isn't John. If so I'm confused.

I'd fully expect most people 2nd to act bet out a queen here since we expect him to check back so often. Results orientation the BTN bet this time but whatever.

Bunch of different ways on how to play this hand and not a huge amount of difference between them, small enough that our image and playing style and feel on our opponents affects the optimal decision more than anything else, so in a sense 'everyone's right' here.

Having said that, I would tend to 4b/fold preflop (villains usually straightforward enough to 5b AA and sometimes KK, fold their underpairs, unless they're calling for implied odds in which case we just bet/fold most flops). Flop I also like b/f but c/c probably fine too. When villain asks us how much we've got, I feel like he puts us on a hand and not the other guy who's missed a flush draw, so is trying to get us to fold, so I would call. But wouldn't criticize c/c or b/f either.