blonde poker forum

Surprised we never have had a thread discussing some of the issues surrounding staking.

Here's a couple of grey areas, which I think we should have "standard" rules so everyone knows where they stand before a disagreement arises.

1. Foreign Exchange fees.

A horse cops 100,000 Euros. The current xe.com rate means this is £78,525. However, when the horse gets the money transferred to his bank, he only receives £75,000. Who should swallow this difference?

2. Tips.

The horse who cops 100k Euros decides to tip 2500. Should the backer pay his share of the tip?


FWIW, I think the staker should swallow the difference in point 1, but the horse should give the backer the chance to receive full payment in the currency he won the money in.

Point 2, I think the player is responsible for tips and should not deduct tips from payment.

(I once swapped with a very rich guy, and he ended up winning the tournament and tipped 10%!! And deducted this from my share.. needless to say I wasn't very happy, but felt it would be cheap to complain)

Any thoughts of either of these two?


I am sure there are plenty of other issues that sometimes arise.. please post any so we can get a "standard" procedure for horses and backers.

Ha point 2 reminds of "wazz" charging his stakers for massages when he binked EPT san remo (i think).

Impartial moderator is really needed. I admire James Keys work here, but its been self nominated and he has a vested interest as he sells/buys action regularly. The dreenie thread pissed me off. If other people disagree i wouldn't have a problem, i just think it needs discussing. Here seems like a good place.

Point 2, I think the player is responsible for tips and should not deduct tips from payment

I have heard of players who cash in EPT/ Overseas Events being almost bullied into giving tips. Have you heard anything similar?

Just a thought for the inexperienced player who does not know the form regarding tipping/or NOT tipping.


Regards

M.
  

In point two, fictional horse is over-tipping imo, 1% is generally enough.

Yes. When Thomas Kremser was in charge of the EPT players (especially inexperienced ones) were definitely bullied into tipping (although this was in the days before a % was taken out for the staff).

I think any event where a % is kept, you shouldn't tip unless a member of staff has done something beyond the call of duty to help you.

He's not fictional and he did tip 10%.

He had no idea of the norm.

I think this is an excellent idea.

I've weighed in with my thoughts on a couple of threads recently and probably just succeeded in pissing people off.

A neutral, impartial moderator of the staking board would be great imo.

1. Staker should suck it up. Maybe stakee should put a proviso in his proposal and as long as there is evidence of what rate he got there should be no argument.

2. Stakee sucks it up.

#1 Buyers should be swallow their %age of the fees. Everyone knows going into the stake that should there be a big bink there will be associated costs with getting the money to UK bank accounts

#2 I think Keys' method of treating tips the same as above but letting people anonymously opt out if they really want to is probably the most accommodating method. I'd prefer to name and shame the nits though ;)

As for %age tips, if its already taken out of the prize pool I'd tip 1% max.

I most be going soft .

1. Stakee can't help xchange and obv wants to get cheapest for himself as well. Other than paying in euros what else can they do. If £75k goes into his bank this is what he won so divide accordingly IMO.

2. Tips are expected and once again as long as it ain't too balla then once again pay out on net.


But this is easy for me to say as I stake 1% of the people on here that Keith does.

He told me 5% was customary, I said you can have 1.
Most others let him have it afaik, but I was the only Yorkshireman  :D

1. shouldn't be on the horse to swallow exchange rates

2. staker shouldn't have to tip anything if they do not wish to

Keys appeared massively out of lone in the Dreenie tread and whilst e probably doesnt care his opinion holds no value in staking threads anymore with his conduct there. He was possibly right in regards to guy but bring it up elsewhere.

I actually think tipping for massages is a lot more reasonable than tipping. Usually the comps take a % out for themselves ak tipping would be a huge nono. We were treat like shit in Marbella and I think Alex/Petes donation showed that. Maybe next year they will be more tolerant of us.

Massages though could really be a no difference between pay jumps, it can be a huge part of being relaxed and optimising performance, perhaps this should be though about in the mark up price. If I bought at 1.1 off somebody then I'd maybe feel sifferebt than somebody who I bought off at 1.6 although it really shouldn't make a difference of course.

I just want to point out one more thing regarding markups. Generally good players will be a lot writer at making deals and getting the nut outcome, should probably be factored
In to some extent regarding Mu even if very small.

The problem with point 1 is dealing with someone who isn't financially savvy.

I once bought a share in someone who took the money in cash and went down to his local Post Office to change it up.

Obviously the nut worst way of changing money.

It was like giving up nearly 10% of the bink.

then by all means ask for the €s or advise him how to do it better?

not at all. infact not even close.


How can the market regulate itself if a tonne of people don't know what they are talking about and those that do cant speak up.


imo with regards to OP point 1 should be answered by player trying to get the best deal for himself which in turn gets the best deal for stakers. I wouldn't invest in someone if I didn't already assume this was the case. point 2 the tipping should come completely out of the players money, given that wsop events etc have money taken out now I see no reason what so ever to tip, it's not like the tip will ever go to anyone who did their job well anyway.



edit fwiw pads I loled out loud at you suggesting the 100r/cube whatever it was. in general that's a super awful value comp

I totally agreed with keys . I don't mind them tips the dealers and shared it with my staking.
Also if the exchange rate different , I am not really bother as long as he players kept on
winning . #ThatsTheMainPoint

That's Brammer tho Frankie . He just nicks James run good picture

it's actually in honour of him after he won the aussie millions

Pretty big leap from bringing something up in the wrong place to someones (clearly very correct and well informed) opinion holding no value anymore imo.

Also I'd be amazed if you can one other person that thinks getting massages and charging them to a backer is more reasonable than chopping what is given as a tip

Did you read the thread met? He said dreenies op was excellent and then when questioned it said t was because she's a decent player and his biggest fan. Guy was simply staying on topic and questioning keys reason for saying the op was execellent. Now if a prospective buyer really respects keys which they probably should as he is a tremendous player and right on 95% of topics but on staking he is judging it on how much he likes the person then people may buy because oh we'll keys said.

Usually he's pretty spot on dgmw.

Have you actually read the thread? Or did someone just bash Pleno on Skype and link? Because if you read it proper you would realise its definitely not me brining something up in wrong place.

I was replying to Adams post. Once I've grammar checked after posting on the iPhone, takes considerably longer than you'd imagine, there had been a bunch of posts however again of you'd impartially read the thread you would had realised this.

Wording could probably be improved though.

Keys opinion will nOw unfortunately hold a fraction of value as it should for sOmebody with such experience in staking, bother as a buyer and a seller after his comments and justifications in dreenies thread.

lol

1) Some posts are tongue in cheek.

2) saying an OP is good doesn't say the stake is a good value one just that the minimum information is there

3) do you really think Guys posts were unbiased?

4) how much is Keys paid to emulate Cos on the staking board?

5) honestly how many people do you think could provide a more knowledgeable opinion than Keys with regards to staking?



I only went and read Dreenies thread because of someone mentioning these shenanigans. then I saw your post here, trying to claim his opinion is invalid is just really really dumb (like Antoine dumb).

The solution to a lot of it is to write better staking threads :)  It is always easier to sort things out pre-event than post-event.

For those that don't know me, I'm not super-active in buying pieces because I prefer to have players on long term backing deals than taking one-off punts on the big events, but suffice to say I am plenty familiar with staking online, less so live.

1.  I am going to play the $10k event at xyz, shares available at no markup.  Either $$ pre-trip, or $$ at venue, or 1.05 markup for £/Stars and I will take the hit/profit on converting it for you.  On my return where I (for the sake of maths) win $10k, you can arrange to collect your $$ from me at the venue, in person at home, or else I will be happy to follow your instruction (within reason) whereby I effectively put $$ in to the banking system to your spec and you get the ££ that comes out the other end.  OR "anyone that wants £ I will attempt to swap with Flushy wholesale at the venue"

2. Tips are a no-no.  Firstly I can't think of a tourny where they don't (?) withhold for tips.  But it is obviously an easy area for someone to skim a couple of % off, claiming it was a tip and trousering it.  If you intend to tip, advertise your % in the staking thread and people can price it in.

Massages etc are redic.  Put them in your staking thread pre and see how you get on.  On day 5, when you start telling your backers that unless you have an all-day massage you can't continue is bending them over.  You might as well mention that you need your own personal chef to serve you at the table and add the hookers and blow for necessary relaxation.  "Hey, I'm doing this for you guys... "

I think both are fine within reason.  Backer gets whatever exchange rate the horse gets after transaction fees, but it may be wise to send a pm if you think someone may be taking 100k to the post office.  I don't think anybody should moan too much if somebody gives a 1% tip.  I wouldn't expect them to contact everyone first, it seems too nitty to me.

As an aside on the exchange thing.  The cheapest way would be to excange at spot with somebody on the side, but if someone binked 200k or so, who takes the risk of them carrying that money around assuming they don't have a US dollar account?  There is clearly a non zero robbery risk, but also a non zero scam risk from the horse, and a non zero risk the personthe horse does the spot transfer with scams the horse. 

I don't know the answer, or is the answer simply make them get a us dollar account if they bink large?

reallly tilts me when people go overseas to play poker tournaments, cash, owe people %'s and then whale off exchanging the money.

IMO, if you're experienced enough to be playing these tournaments then you should be able to complete a simple exercise of not getting totally fucked by the EX rate. If you have no clue at all about these things (as many people haven't) then you should ask someone who knows about it. There are LOADS of people like this on blonde, i think it's basically inexcusable to be selling action on blonde and gettng hit big with EX rate + charges.  If i've bought action in you and I'd be able to sort it and lose .75% then i feel pretty cheated when someone else does it and loses 3%.

Also, LOL at massages...that reminds me Tikay you had a share of me in the $5k plo, was feeling kinda tense the night before so had a few hookers round, cost me $2k so you owe me $100 (at 1.2 mu) $120, bank transfer if you can ty

what's the best technique when staking to allow for/not have someone shafted by fluctuating exchange rates?



Dave can you pls confirm I don't have to pay hooker markup or i'm out for future stakes. thanks.

Good point r.e the robbery.

Also US$ accounts aren't a quick/simple thing to set up and if you're opening one thats based outside the US or offshore you need to be there to fill forms etc.

You can't hedge the exchange rate because you don't know the size of bink in advance.  You can avoid getting shafted on charges

I think what keys had done over the last 2nonths has been really really great and really below the boards. People have stopped putting up those rather ridic 79/30 deals and have genuinely put effort into the ops and clarified lots do stuff and generally just made the board a lot cleaner and better for stakees.

I even put a picture of myself on mine and tried my hardest to get approval from one of the guys who I had never really impressed for one reason or another, but unfortunately didn't get a gold star lol

He didn't go into great dept and start essaying on the threads it was very simple cos policing with one line of approval and usually recommendations for the future lol perfect

The post of the weekend just made no sense at all though and the his justifications seemed very keys like. Ibstead of just saying yea I was wrong here he justifed it with being a good player and a nice girl/big fan of his.

Its such a little matter and writing on my iPhone takes 10 mins per line so /end wte

Cant everyone just use keys? Seriously lol

He has done all the big transactions previously and of everybody used him for the exchange he'd obv give the very best rate whilst profiting from it too.

as for the fluctuating exchange rates there is nothing you can do about that, except ofc make sure the player waits until an optimal time to exchange. I'm not a financials trader, and neither are most people so we'd all really just be guessing, unless there was someone in the know saying - wait till X date before selling euros or something.

The big thing is the method of exchange - for example wiring foriegn currency to UK£ banks is the fishiest thing ever. You get horrible rates from your bank and are often charged several fee's on top. (I remember looking into wiring money from vegas once, and stood to lose about 6% wiring to one of my bank accounts), bringing in cash and selling is often the bes method, but has a lot of risks (doobs makes good points)

The single best method is to wire to an account in the same currency then get an account with a forex/trading company, or more ideally flushy's business and then exchange money with them, dealing bank2bank and with high volume trading companies means the most competitve rate normally and rthe risk of robbery/losing it is virtually eliminated.

This stuff doesn't take long to research/ask about either. Speshly on blonde.


I cannot confirm this.

FWIW I think there's > 50% chance that Post Office changing man was scamming his backers to get an extra few percent as he wasn't playing for much.

There were two at the weekend, including the thread we are talking about.

[edited your post to protect feelings and because 79/30 was obv an iphone thing]

Obv. Off topic but is there a reason my iPhone tellers are so bad? I mean I don't have fat thumbs, in very experienced technically and def not a noob but fail so so mich?

Z

no the auto correct is ridic tilting.

even when you delete re-enter like 3 times in a row it still auto changes and it's easy to miss.



I'd still buy your hooker action dave, was just trying to get reduced markup obv :p


edit pleno I get why thought his posts were pants, just think it's ridic to then de-value his posts so much. he's not got the most cuddly online persona but it doesn't invalidate his input.

FWIW Keys makes very important points on the staking boards. Yeh he comes across as arrogant but the guy is actually very intelligent and if he wasn't a poker player he would probably be knees deep in the Higgs Boson or something.

Some basics, for which all you lot looking to play a full WSOP schedule (for example) should have:

Knowledge (or advice) of how not to change money at the Post Office
Knowing your ITIN number
Having a USD account in Vegas so you can deposit the cash
Having a corresponding USD account with the same bank in the UK so that you can make those $$'s re-appear safely and vig-free when you get back.
(Feel free to replace the above 2 steps with a decent FX option of your own.. but have SOMETHING in place as backup)

Some of those steps require a little bit of effort, but for example, opening a USD account in Vegas iirc was a short trip off strip and 15 minutes in branch.

I was also asking w/regards to exchange rates in terms of people who lock in rates when they start the thread. given that stakes are often sorted well in advance of foreign live action. aren't they just putting themselves are risk when the rates move alot?

On a side note. I'm glad everyone thinks that the staker shouldn't take the hit of the dealer tip. Few months ago i binked DTD, Keys ofc had half and i took tip from his cut.

Yes I was wrong. Apologies to keys.

just saw it now...lol... SORRY CHRIS

Have you actually read my post?

The first line of your post infers that Keys' bringing something up in the wrong place makes his opinion on staking in valid when the two aren't related at all and basically I just think thats a pretty stupid comment. Contrary to what you probably believe, I've not spoken about you to Keys at all it's really not in the forefront of my mind whatsoever. Im 100% impartial and not sure why you would think otherwise.

this.

I think we should either just flame the shit out of every staking request until people get the idea or failing that have everyone use the same template.

Good point about tips, most of the time I see the staker's ending up paying for this.

Read key's post and tell me he isn't in the wrong? Noone has highlighted it at all apart from someone who appears bias. I want a moderator who is unbiased. Key's buys and sells too much action for this in my opinion and whilst I can see he's done a great job, I've been a little scared to post, worried I'll be ripped apart, is that what the marketplace should be like?

This sounds really harsh, and I doubt key's will care too much, but something had to be said

I just wanted to be nice to dreenie :(

Problem is if your nice to her and mean to others it can be misconstrued. Harsh policeman role suits your online persona. Cuddles all around. Blonde's been super tilting lately with little things getting to people. Sort it out lads!! Xox

I have read it and don't really see anything wrong in the content whatsoever.

What I've posted here though has absolutely nothing to do with the content of any post though.

I have $ and € accounts at Barclays but still lose shit loads in xchange. Lost 20k once in Moroccan dirham once

rotflmfao

In the 'True ROI of Players' thread Lil Dave describes piece taking in tournaments as 'a punt' and I quite agree with that. There are a myriad of factors which need to align in order for the staking to be rendered a success. Variance in every hand, reliability and integrity of the horse, stake cancelled due to juicy cash game/being pissed up, good exchange rate, massages & tips, buying back hot action. I mean a lot of stuff needs to go right for the backer to make jackpot money in a one off, so it is absolutely a punt. And I don't reckon putting up OPR of online winnings gives great certainty about what will happen in a couple of multi day live events; but admittedly it helps somewhat.

Anyway, Blonde Staking Board is a free market where if you want to be a horse you have a captive audience of would be backers to pitch your punt to. Every member has an equal right to utilise that tool for their own benefit. A place where owners and mods have a laissez-faire approach themselves. So imo it is wholly inappropriate for ordinary members to take it upon themselves to critique what a punt should represent to others, esp in a live staking thread. It is a free market which should evolve without any management. Posting that player x is a bad punt with bad behaviour and attitude and is a losing player really damages that player's potential to be staked. It wouldn't be so bad if equal vigour was voiced across the board. I don't know why railtard gets kind words and outragous gets a kick in the bollocks but it seems weird and would influence neutrals.

Its a minefield out there Mantis.

Probably best steer clear really

Oh wait...

If the player is ever gonna take the hit on the exchange rate they should just pay the backer in foreign currency and let them sort it out themselves.

Mantis for staking mod

tipping is old school & the only places i would now tip are my local (dtd) & possibly places like luton where i know many of the staff.

in the past you tipped, it went in the TDs pocket & you pretty much had no idea where it went...i look back & lol at the lack of transparency in these situations.

when pete binked in marbella recently i urged him not to tip; the organisers now usually take a % for staff as well as a reg fee & is was comical to see various floor staff cosy up to players as the big money loomed.

so yeah, if i scoop the ME next year glgl harrahs trying to get a $ out of me.

#tightisright

Agree exchange rate losses should be swallowed by both parties but also that backers are right to feel aggrieved if the horse goes to the post office to change the $.

When Keith and Keys backed me they were always happy for me to tip what I felt right and share that too.

It seems fair to split costs associated with exchanging money.

Re tipping. I had no clue what % was expected and after a decent win I left what amounted to 1% tip. I went home and thought I had been a little on the mean side so I researched tipping in live poker tournaments on line.
The consensus was that 2 to 3% was the norm.

Next time I went to DTD I asked one of the staff there and they stated the same. They stated that DTD do not withhold Any % from the prize pool for tips.

On my next smaller cash I left 25% to go towards my previous shortfall and ease my conscience and I have left 3% on each occasion since. Is 2 to 3% the norm or not in the Uk?

In a staking agreement I think the tip should be agreed upon in advance and that it should be shared by both parties.

If you don't trust the player to be honest in how much tip they leave then maybe you shouldn't be doing business with them in the first place. However if I was being staked I would, for the sake of transparency, ask for a receipt for the amount of tip and explain to them why.

I think tipping % shouldn't be a linear function and should go down in percentage terms as the amount won goes up. For example for a £20k score I might tip £400, but for a £100k score, I probably tip £1k and certainly wouldn't feel mean about it.

Obviously if they "rake" tips from the prizepool then not tipping at all is totally fine like we did in Marbella.

Not a fan of tipping, just add it to the night out fund and treat those people you actually like to a good time instead.

That's what some of the "tippers" were doing anyway :D

Shouldn't just tip for the sake of it or 'because it's the norm'
Tipping should be like everything else in life, i.e if you felt you have had great service , enjoyed yourself and want to give a thank you 'drink' then its cool . Just ridic to start tipping 1k  + etc unless you wanna be balla  : ) 

I don't understand why my staking thread keeps getting bought up tbh.. I thought I was more than honest in my post, yes I did not put the screen names, but then I did post them as soon as someone said something about it. I agree I should have put them on straight away tho.

When Guy questioned it, he was obviously talking to James, hence the reply he got, that's Jame's opinion and none of my business. If James had slated me for putting the post up, I wouldn't have cried about it, I would have took his points, removed the post and not put one up again. As it stands I had said that if we won on the package or when I get the money I am owed (maybe 2 weeks), then I will pm the original investors and see if they would like a slice of my schedule @spot rate, where I would usually sell X amount of % off at a mark up. So I felt it was saying up front that the deal was not great on this occasion, these are the reasons, but if you are interested next time, u can buy pieces @ spot so it makes up for the 1st stake a little.

All he did was basically say nice op and good luck, yes I like him, I respect his game and him as a person. If he had been harsh to me, I would have took at as I respect his judgment on this topic.

If I put these type of staking threads every other week, I could understand, but I don't, I thought I made it quite clear why I put that sort of thread in the OP. It's like the 'bidding' staking some people will refuse to buy it, and some might give it a go, usually if they know you well etc this will be the latter.

Yes I could have just waited, and in hindsight now I wish I had. I don't see why everyone is going on about me being Jame's fan girl. I like him and wish him to do well, just like many other blonde members, I don't sit at home anti sweating people to lose money, never have never will, but If I have met them, played with them and spoke to them before I am more likely to rail them harder than others.

Anyway, I won't put up that sort of thread again, as quite rightly it's not the greatest deal for the investors.

+1 to this

I brought it up as no slight on you, imo the market should be free and open to any deals, whereas Keys prefers a more moderated approach, but he seemed to not mentioned the standard OPR/Sharkscope thing, which i wanted to bring up. That got spoke about but I don't think anyone specifically mentioned your thread being a bad deal etc, in fact with some of the people buying pieces, i would have taken a bit myself if i had the funds free.

You asked for staking and got it so it really doesn't matter. The penalty for a really shit staking thread is lack of stakers. You didn't get penalised so there is no point listening to any critics in this regard. Obviously the penalty is harsher on people like me who'd struggle with a shit staking request because nobody has met me rather than people like you because you know a few people in the game but that really wouldn't give me a valid complaint.

Don't take any shit to heart, nobody was conned and you got what you asked for. You wouldn't get extra for artistic impression.

Sandy

OK, since now we're talking specifics:

1. A 70/30 stakeback deal over a lot of tournaments is actually not bad. When people started using the 70/30 w/stakeback to sell for a single comp and disguise >1.4 markup that was different. Dreenie there was nothing outrageous (no pun intended) about the terms of your staking request, IMHO.

2. People having a go at me for "not being fair" unless I'm as harsh on dreenie as I am on Guy (outragous76), surely someone selling for high stakes mtts like the sunday 500 and 100r should have to post a little more info than someone who doesn't just take the piss and play as high as they can get away with, but includes a wide range of tournaments from $8.80s up to the bigger 162 and mill. Even if not, I got the impression dreenie just forgot to include a link to her opr and wasn't trying to hide anything, unlike Guy who posted "Not posting graphs and stuff (sorry Mr Keys)." in his thread selling for aforementioned high stakes mtts, at a markup of 1.14. The attitude is terrible imo, especially considering he'd just quit a long term stake whilst in makeup, but even then I wasn't exactly scathing; I just put "If people want to buy at markup in someone who doesn't want to post an OPR then good luck to them.", apparently this is police brutality as far as Guy is concerned, and blatant cliqueyness and favouritism according to a lot of others.

Thread:
http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=58067.0

Like I said at the time, yeah I wasn't consistent and I'm sorry I said anything, but I'm not doing it solely to be a dick, Guy has had problems in the past and threads like his are the reason I started trolling OPs in the staking boards, to get more info in OPs and prevent people getting (not asking for, I'm actually not in favour of more moderating) staking higher than is profitable, and to prevent stakes going bad through ambiguity. However dreenie's thread did not seem to me to threaten either of those outcomes. I agree though that if I was being totally impartial I would have asked for links, apologies to anyone who feels let down.

Re: the general points around exchange rates and tipping, my 2 cents:

The horse pays the costs of conversion into the currency of the buyin, unless specified in the OP. Usually I just add a little markup in my head to account for this, although when I did an auction for the WSOP I specified a +0.5% charge to anyone paying in non-dollars because I couldn't set the markup.

The backers are due any winnings in the currency the tournament paid out, and they pay the cost of conversion if they request another currency. Usually this means the horse and backers are in the same boat and the horse will endeavour to get the best rate for his own money at the same time as changing the backers' money. Where this isn't the case I would say the backer has the right/responsibility to tell the horse the best way to convert the money or collect it in the payout currency and convert it themselves.

Don't tip at all if something for the dealers has been deducted from the prizepool already, unless you want to of course. In Australia I left a tip* on behalf oh all my backers, and with our horses Keith and I split the cost of the tip with the horse, since they mainly only win in DTD and we like the dealers there, but actually I think in general that the horse ought to be responsible for tipping, since it is a service charge and the backers haven't really received the service (right? not 100% on this).

*It was actually a charity donation which the crown then doubled, actual tips were not allowed. The amount was <1% and nothing had been deducted from the prizepool so it was a pretty good deal I think, however I still offered the backers the chance to opt out anonymously, which nobody took.

I have comparatively little experience of being in a position where a tip is expected, but I'm pretty sure that had I ever said "nope, i won it and i intend to keep it all" I would not be very popular on my return to the room in future. So why not agree policy on tips beforehand?

Backers have received the 'service' insofar as the intangible external issues which merit the tip have contributed to the win. Plus, where there is no deduction from prizepool it's -ve for future goodwill from the venue which must surely be -ve for future stakings there.

Since we're talking specifics...

- You said Guy's staking threads had all predictably turned to shit
- You say his behaviour and attitude are terrible
- You highlight how he touts for staking after previously quitting on backers
- You state his actions are REALLY bad
- You highlight there is lots of evidence he is a losing player
- You imply he omits this info from his staking requests, presumably to deceive people and acquire further staking
- You say he just wants to play big comps on other people's money and he takes the piss

This kinda sabotages his prospects of future staking. I don't know why an ordinary member thinks that is a fair and reasonable thing to do.

In the Railtard thread...

- You say it's only a blip
- You highlight his successful reformation
- You highlight how much money he (and thus any backers) can make from poker
- You sympathise how he must feel hard done by
- You say his behaviour is disappointing but not surprising

This kinda enhances his prospects of future staking.

As an ordinary member you can pretty much post whatever opinion you want about people, but your opinions are a long way short of fair.

I think the mistake(s) Keys has made in his official role, is showing bias in his language and leniency towards people who does and doesn't like.

I thought his posts in the railtard thread were way too kind, though none of what he stated were incorrect statements.

Whereas in regard to Guy (Outragous) he has been very scathing in his language, but Guy has really dropped the ball imo and without Keys has taken virtually no "stick" for his actions. Leaving a deal with makeup and then going to seek backing elsewhere in a very short space of time is really really bad, yet very little was said (think there was 1 or 2 posts from Amatay questioning it).

Didn't guy suggest there were reasons for cutting/stopping the original deal? or was this pm'ed to all backers as private?  Did keys have a stake in Railtard? if so its more than a little hypocritical.

1. if it can be proven he has only been sent (to use your example) £75,000, then yes ofcourse the backer should only be paid his % of this otherwise the horse will be selling at a loss (or less of a markup then agreed)

2. if id backed / brought % of somebody and they took the equivelant % from my share id be furious... the tip should come only from the player unless is confirmed its ok with you.

One of his stakers in the original thread was Amatay who made this post http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=58067.msg1584925#msg1584925 , after the staking had finished. Unless i am missing some off forum stuff, Guy's behaviour in this situation is at best poor communication.

i posted alot of stuff too, maybe on another thread though. Claypole as well, also Greekstein but Guy said he didnt want to speak about it or would get back to it.

either way its gone from me now, dont mind, gl to him but thought it was handled very poorly.

We have mods for every other board, why not have a staking board mod?

Just to vet any staking requests/proposals and maybe to arbitrate if a dispute occurs.

And anyone who posts on the board agrees to abide to the decision of the mod.

It wouldn't take much time because there are very few staking requests and replies.

I would put forward the name of Simon Galloway - well respected, knows the staking process inside and out yet doesn't participate in staking on here very often.

No idea if he'd be interested, but think he'd do an excellent job.

Huge +1

I don't think I've ever disagreed with a Simon Galloway staking post.

Simon easily the best candidate for this if he has the time.

+1

Simon would be perfect assuming he would be willing to do it.

Why is everyone assuming there is going to be a staking board mod?

Is Guy a grimmer? I quite like him

Not assuming at all.

Asking/hoping for one.

I don't think anyone is assuming. Camel has made a suggestion that we should have one and some of us agree.

ok, thanks


You think the "self regulating" approach where the current mods oversee the boards for flaming, but don't get involved in the stake itself is now insufficient, and that some high profile participants giving their opinions on stakes good or bad is divisive?

that's a fair summary?

So when I put up a stacking thread selling at 1.8 Simon can put people off?

In a word yes.

Look at the recent controversies/discussions:

Bram's "buy out" clause. Mod decides if that's ok. yes or no, end of argument.

Guy making another staking thread so soon after quitting a long term stake in defiicit. Yes or no?

Was Dreenies OP acceptable? Yes or no?


Just think a mod could make all these decisions quickly and fairly. Everyone who want to take part in the staking board MUST abide with his decisions.

Seems like it would save alot of arguments/conflict.

Obviously a mod should not make a decision in a thread which he has a vested interest.

That's why I thought Simon would be a good choice as he doesn't buy or sell very often.

Don't think it will be the mods job to regulate the prices on offer.

But I'll have 3%.

If Simon agrees and it's implemented, I think it's a really positive step for an already great part of the forum.

ok, will discuss the principle with the team. See what they think

James Keys in having an opinion shocker

Lol. Keep getting guys saying they will buy but thus far I ain't found an event with a big enough buy in to accomadate everyone.

What Guy did to myself and other backers is basically the same as if Mondo were to just end his $35 180 man stake having lost a chunk and then start up a new thread a few weeks later without buying out. I highlighted this in his new staking thread which Longy has touched on in this thread. At the time no one really commented or gave a shit apart from Cos and thats mainly because were good friends. If it had been a more high profile, respected and prolific poster than myself (i.e Camel, Keys) then maybe more people would have taken notice

If this does get implemented I do think it's key that everyone who posts on the Staking Board agrees to any decision made by the mod.

And will be prevented from future stakings if they don't.

so using me as an example, if the mod said "no buy back allowed" on my proposal, i either agree or can never sell on blonde again?

Oh right. I never knew this and it does seem a pretty bad move on Guys part. Obv there may have been circumstances for it but I do take your point about people's attitudes towards different people. I love the banter and craic round this place up to the point were people fall out

Right.

That's how I see it working anyway.

Must admit I was totally unaware of this issue until Keys talked about it in Dreenies thread.

I don't want to comment too much because I don't know the details of the staking agreement.

However at face value it looks bang out of order.

Surely it works like that in regards to scamming, but not the buy back. I.e, if Bram refused this series, but came back with an EPT Barca post, with no buyback clause, then he should still be allowed to sell? Otherwise Railtard1/Guy have problems here. Does it work as a fresh slate for everyone? Lots to discuss for the higher ups.

Personally, I think that's too much of a straitjacket for a poster wanting to post on here

However, everyone chip in views and we'll consider.

Well, I don't think it would get that far.

If the Mod doesn't let Bram put the buyout clause in his staking request for the WSOP, the stake doesn't go ahead.

So he would be free to put a new request in for the EPT Barca as long as the same clause wasn't there.

My responses to everything I've seen.

1) IMO, Keys' posts haven't been out of line out all, admittedly he could perhaps have used a little more tact in his wording, but then he's a bit of a c**k on the internet :D people are being a little over-sensitive i feel.

2) Guy's handling of Amatay's questions was poor, and over defensive - I was the biggest shareholder of guys package and I wasn't annoyed about it because I didn't feel like guy had acted amliciously, or thought he was in the wrong, or was trying to angle. I was a little disappointed he didn't foresee how it could have come across and communicated it better - like I said though, I dont care about that

3) The railtard thread was a total joke, 90% of the opinons coming from people with about 3% knowledge of the whole situation, which is abso fine every is welcomed and encouraged to offer their opinions (by me espcially) then everyone has a go at people who do know a great deal about the situation. People defending marc on the back of his "great reformation" are pretty jokes as well, he stole money, and is paying it back, hardly behavior worthy of a medal is it. It should be considered to his credit that he said "ill grind my ass off and pay people back" and for the most part that's what he's done/doing, but it's not like he's saved a young girl from a burning tree or donated a kidney to a dying relative and is actually kind of irrelevant to the recent thread.

4) Simon Galloway for staking mod, not even close :)up

I thought amliciously was a a great word I hadn't seen before until I googled it and realised it was a typo.

Apart from from that, good post.

Chris sold out with the buy back clause so why should it now be up to someone to say hold up a minute you can't put a buy back clause in. He was up front and open about it and it was not like it was an after timer thing.

Has anyone ever offered to buy a piece in someone and been refused for any reason. If I offered to buy a piece in lildave could the mods then say hold on a minute Dave don't take smashedagain's money because he is money laundering for a Columbia cartel?

Wow!

No it certainly is not! Ive been logged out of blonde for days, but someone just alerted me to this post!

This will be my first and last on the matter (which has been put to bed for a while).

The party stake was exclusively for Party ONLY. the other stake was on stars.

So if you want to draw a Monda comparison, it would be like monda stopping his stake and then putting up a single ONE OFF THREAD to play $200 SNGS on Party for ONE NIGHT whilst having 1/2 his own action.  

The simple fact is, if my life were as it was last September, the stake would still be running. It isnt! I made my point in the stake thread and stakers have always been able to make their points.

I have also told backers that if I bink playing in 2012, i will pay the stake back. This is on any site - not just party. I felt this was fair compromise.

Simon, you have made your feelings clear. If I have not binked by Decmber 31st 2012 playing poker - I will pay you whatever is is $120? on Party. If it really pleases you, I will also not play on Party until you have your funds returned.

If any of my other backers feel the same as Simon PM me and I will do the same.

If SBM's (Staking Board Mods) were implemented as suggested, a single SBD, such as Simon G, would not be adequate, or even nearly so.

You need cover for when Simon is absent, offline, or on holiday (many staking threads are time-sensitive). You also need cover for when a SBM is compromised by a conflict of interest, when, for example, SG had purchased,or planned to purchase, action in that person.

I would wholly endorse SG's nomination, he's a stand-out candidate, but you need at least two more names.

Guy, turning this on Amatay the way you have is really unfair.

You've handled it badly irrespective of any other circumstances.

Thanks for considering me suitable for the position, don't have much time to write atm but a few pointers:

1. Blonde proprietors may not want this
2. I probably don't have time to do it in the way you are hoping it would be done, anything I agreed to do would be "best endeavours" so non-committal at this stage for sure.
3. James Keys was doing a pretty good job of vetting sloppy threads imo - if he is happy to continue doing that I think that's a good thing.  The Dreenie/Railtard accusations of partisan rulings aside, and the occasional comment of "online demeanour" not in keeping with IRL, (not really relevant) everything else has surely been good.
4. As an indication on how I would see it working (if it even is a go-er) and to answer the Bram question, I think a buy-back clause written unambiguously in OP is fine, everyone can choose to price it in/out as they see fit.  Pretty much everything that isn't looking suspiciously like an angle or a potential disagreement-in-the-making is a contender for OP.  If I thought it was ambiguous, I would ask for clarification.  If I thought it was likely to be misinterpreted by many, I would get that clarified too.  Only in the event of something ridiculous in the OP would I ask that it was taken out (something clearly not ever in the interest of any potential buyer, or something borderline illegal/immoral)

Having three would be perfect really.

It one mod makes a decision the poster thinks unfair, they could make an appeal to the other 2 and if they both agree with the staker, he could be over ruled.

I dunno, I am making this up as I go along.

I do think having staking mod(s) is a very good idea.

Completely agree with this. Camel's answer to Brammer's question made me think that too.

I'd put myself forward for it too. Think that could work pretty well along with Keys and Simon.

It wasnt my intention, but he keeps raising it. None of the other 9 stakers do.

I even managed to not rise to Keys saying "GUY OWED THOUSANDS" which is clearly untrue.

I havent responded to any like jason or Keith on this thread. But when Amatay throws something like that out there to soil my reputation, I had to respond. I can only be thankful that a friend pointed this out to me before the blonde spiral got out of control!

I have been more then frank with my backers, I have made my final comment on the matter

Tikay's diary is currently debating the 'elf n safety gawn mad issue. Whether people should be protected from themselves by what many refer to as the nanny state.
All of the concern being shown here for the staker is commendable, but ultimately, the issues of mark-up and buyback are for the market to set surely?
A mod, however experienced and knowledgeable, can't be the sole arbiter of value.

The only valid intervention in a staking board should be to warn potential investors of known past history of griming or extended delays in payment. APAT recently opened their own staking board with a licensing system for potential stakees. It's not guaranteed, but nobody gets to post a proposal until their identity has been verified at the least.

Having three would be perfect really.

You must also remember that a SINGLE Mod would get absolutely butchered in the event of a contentious decision. Not that such a thing is ever likely, obv.

A 300 post restriction does that for us. the APAT board has no such post restrictions, but requires people to make a payment to APAT.

Different methods, same aim

I had no idea the second stake was on a different site to the first stake.

However, just walking away from a losing stake if the buyers still want to continue is a bad thing to do, if you currently have no time to play, fair enough. But you can keep the stake open until you can put in the required volume again.

Saying it's a final comment is a bit pathetic too when there are clearly issues there.

I spoke to one staker (not amatay) who said they werent happy with it but didnt want to rock the blonde boat or look like the one that was being awkward.

You're in profit from the thread and quit. You should pay every cent you made from the thread back to backers split fairly according to what % they made.

That would have been the most satisfactory end to a stake that you quit. If I was one of the investors, I'd be mightily pissed off, whether i had 100% or 0.1% of your action.

It would have to be policed with an iron fist.

Mods decision final, no arguments.

If you don't agree with that, you lose posting rights on the staking board.

if the mod thing is implemented it gives more people an excuse or reason to use Alex's site btw.

why?

I think the same number of people will use Alex's site regardless of mods or not rly.

presumably it will be viewed as a hurdle to attracting finance on here, which might not be a hurdle elsewhere

This might be a good thing, of course, depending on potential stakees.

Just saying

How will that be enforced?

and by who?

:-)

Keith

Anyone that is aware of the stake knows that is what I did. I tried to keep playing, but it was hugely intermittant and not good for the stake. I couldnt possibly give it my best and therefore the backers were more likely to continue to lose more rather than win. So what is better, accept that its not great situation, but not lose more? It seemed approriate to me. As a further consideration I told them that if I bink for the rest of the year I would pay back, which seemed reasonable to me. ie. when I did get back to playing (hopefully my best), they would all benefit if I did

There is another reason, which Im not prepared to go into on blonde, but again, I advised every backer that if they wanted to know i would tell them privately.

some people dont want to be judged. they want to be able to post shitty threads (see alex martins today :D) and if someone who sells regularly wants to write something on their phone etc its just realyl easy to say the amount.

alex will obv allow people with less than 300 posts and if it gets popular there will be more traffic.

we'll basically never say any bad deals anymore like the dtd 70/30's which ofc is not a bad thing.

just think thew overall traffic will go down q alot.

also i think people involved in the modding shouldn't be regular buyers and definitely not regular sellers.

Countless people posted sensibly along the lines of 'caveat emptor' etc. Keys wasn't appointed so he can critique staking posts from any angle he wants, just like the rest of us.

Truly ridic idea to look to appoint judges/mods to police this board specifically

Existing mods approach is plenty - ie someone does something that obviously harms the community, ban them from Blonde

A bunch of petty fascistic rulings over the minutiae within staking requests does not advance the place at all

I understand and accept all that Guy.

But what is wrong with giving stakers a choice? Either pay them back now, or keep the stake open for another six months, a year or whenever you able to play again?

Walking away from a losing stake without giving the stakers a chance to get their money back is almost always a bad thing to do.

Some of the people that don't want to be judged are some of the peoeple who are going to take the piss.

Modding would make 2 liner posts like Alex's not happen at the last minute. Let's face it, it takes 5 mins max to make a good proper staking thread.

I think its fine the way it is fwiw

Whatever else, it isn't a "truly ridic" idea.

This is the key point really Guy. You acting as judge and jury on it seemed bad.

The fact you were also playing in the weeks after seemed kind of OOL. You said in your other post that playing on was more likely to be a losing proposition than a winning one - why didn't this stop you playing that sunday stars session or mentioning it in the OP?

i assume the online section would be modded too right?

I don't mind either way if Mods are implemented or not for the staking board but it's most definitely not a truly ridic idea by any means.

Didn't realise that posting a staking thread was guaranteed to give you what you want, must have missed that.

Sandy

Obv

blonde have always said they do not take responsibility for staking Threads. Essentially, the (existing) Mods action in such threads is limited to flaming & the like, & of course policing the "300 Posts" rule & get-arounds.

I don't really see how Mods, or blonde itself, could stop a self-appointed group of Members from being formed, & offering a view on staking threads.

I'm making this up as I go along.

I'm not sure if it is feasible or workable or whatever.

I just think having a mod to quickly look at staking requests and help people make better ones is a good idea.

I don't think Alex would argue his request today falls a little way short of what is acceptable!

Arbiting in disputes might not be in their remit, but again would solve alot of problems.

I agreed with glens post until Keith posted that... Confusedagain ???

I like it the way it is let people sell at 70/30 if they can, let people flame away.

What do you mean?

Surely there is an option in the software for stopping someone posting on a specific board?

Hint taken, I've ordered shirts

but why shouldnt it be acceptable, he has the reputation and required posts and obviously the ability. We know him, trust him and think he will be profitable. Someone random isn't going to come along and buy, they can't even do it!


If its about protecting blonde then they should remove the 300 post cap if they want mods, otherwise its pointless.

Not acceptable to you, but it self polices

If its not acceptable to others, no one buys a piece, Alex has to do something different next time

We all know that, we don't need a "mod" to tell us that

I doubt it would be the Mods job to decide on whether a price is fair or not.

So what if they post the same thing on a different board?

Very probably, yes, but that already happens, Keith. As it happens, it mostly falls to James Keys at present, because he chose to put himself out there (which has helped improve the OP's), but there is abso nothing to stop anyone else having their say under the present system. Anyone who wishes to comment on the quality of the OP can.

Bear in mind, a SBM's would not, in truth, have any power as such, except by the power of dissuasion & adverse comment.

Alex's request is perfectly acceptable. This is why the concept of modding it formally is a truly ridic idea

+1.

The current system works fine. People can buy if they want to. People can try and sell however they like. Other people can criticise if they feel it's out of line. At the end of the day it's a service provided for buyers and sellers, and if they are happy doing business, it's no one else's business.

If you think a staking request is a scam, then by all means say so, but if nobody cares and buys anyway, don't try and get a mod involved.

Didn't think you could post staking requests on other boards?

Let me demonstrate....


Hi. My name is Red Dog. Anyone want to put me in the DTD £500 @ 70/30?

As far as I understand, any staking requests outside the staking board get moved there, don't they?

And if you weren't allowed to post there, the post would be deleted?

Deleted by who though, a mod?

What if that mod were me, what if I didn't agree with the decision of the staking mod?

What if the poster continually re-posted?

1% please

Camel, I suppose what I'm thinking is if we take a scenario like Alex's request:

A number of people will think it's acceptable, and a number won't

The fact that someone is appointed and comes down on one side or the other does not make one of the views correct and is more divisive than letting things find their own balance.

And I'm not being awkward for the sake of it. Ultimately it will just mean more work for the mods.

As an onlooker it looks like you are  ;whistle;

Staking threads get moved as standard, people who can't get on that board get them deleted, repeat offenders get a cooler/ban whatever.

Standard stuff ?

great post says it all really. why complicate things?!.  

OP makes OP stating terms of the deal and who they are with links to herbie mob and OPR etc (there is even template advice to help on the board itself).  Potential buyers can ask questions if they wish and the market dictates whether to buy or not. I am finding this whole debate pointless.

Don't see the problem with AlexMartin's staking thread. He's well known, and those that do know him can buy pieces. Those who don't know him simply don't buy.

If you're new to staking then obviously you're going to have to put a bit more effort into it.

Yeh standard rules. If a mod constantly did this he would get delete Similarily If a gentoo rep continued to come on every dtd post posting Genting.

You break the rules - you get the hammer.

Keys having his say is fine, I really doubt martins would give a fuck or be offended as he will have recd the money, nor will the stakers mind as they hae invested in the players poker skills not writing skills.

If he doesn't sell out then maybe next time he would change his op style

Yes. We cooler / ban people after extensive discussion to determine if it's warranted. Then we have to deal with the inevitable flack that follows.

it seems a big ask for us to do that on behalf of a staking mod, especially if we don't all agree with the decision in the first place.

 

What about the guy case? If mods judged him to be ool and owe 3k what happens then?  If its just advice on ops and deleting spam then you don't need 3 staking mods.

100% not a mods job

Wait a god damm minute. So  you were in on All my bans last year too?

This, if someone doesnt like an OP they can just fire in some posts and try to submarine the whole thing anyway.  It doesnt take someone being a mod to do that.

There has been a number of disputes arising from staking posts recently.

I just thought having mod (s) would nip alot of these disputes/arguments in the bud.

The staking board mod would delete it obviously.

If it is judged a poster has broken staking board rules/protocol, do you not agree they should be banned from putting futures proposals up?

Interesting that regular users of the staking forum seem more in favour of a staking board mod, while those who seem against it are either rare users or never use it all.

dont think thats 100% true.

I thought you seemed in favour, Lil Dave and Cos (not a current heavy user, but has used it alot in the past). I am obviously in favour.

Whereas those putting up arguments against seem to be Nirvana, Red Dog, Bobo and Junior.

I use the board all the time, a staking mod is not a good idea imo. The board as a whole should be modded obviously but it is up to the community to regulate the offers. If a thread is shit, it should be replied to with 'this is shit', if a thread is good value it will sell out quickly, if a thread is not good value it will sell out slowly etc etc.  (you also have to remember that blonde has a lot of threads which are not 100% about +ev backing but about helping friends etc and that is good but if someone impartial where to be a staking board mod they would if talking honestly shoot down alot of threads).


Keys has been the only one willing to critique and no one seems to be able to take anything as constructive criticism. it's not like people are requesting money to gamble why should they put any effort into providing all the relevant information  ;whistle;


There are a tonne of threads I open and choose not to take action for any of the following reasons,

sold out
crap player
don't know trust them
markup too high
no money invested by the player
not interested in action in the specific events etc etc


There are an absolute chunk of threads that I think are 'crap value' or worse yet I get the impression that if  I were to put that, people would just say well you didn't have to come in here at all etc etc which isn't the right attitude. I opened the Alex Martin thread and saw literally nothing posted, yet I thought mmmm want piece maybes, then I opened his hendon mob helpfully provided by someone trying to add more information to the lightweight op, saw his picture and thought fk me nut staking proposition. unfortunately for me it's sold out.

if newpostergary922783 (hopefully no one has this nick) starts a one line thread like Alex, i'd expect over a page of just abuse and pointers telling him what people expect. If people are asking for money they should take ALL the feedback.


I honestly don't get what people are thinking a staking board mod would do, what would their role be? what 'powers' would they have?

At present all mods get a Stetson some chaps and a cap gun

if they break rules mods delete anyway.  mods should be not judge or jury on whether a person quitting make up or has grimmed previosuly is out of line. i am sure the self regualtion on here that exists anyway will unearth such trechery! :-)

mmmm chaps

I am against the idea of staking mods, who in their right mind would want the job - it is just opening themselves up for flaming. On blonde a mods decision is never final it is always the start of 26 pages of blathering.

Buyers are perfectly entitled to buy stakes at terrible value, stakers can put up awful pitches, constructive ideas can help both sides to improve but let users do their own stupid things.

The reason I thought it would be good idea to have a specific staking board is the existing mods might not grasp all the issues involved completely.

How much staking experience does *grasping a mods name from thin air* Ginger have for example?

Camel I don't get what role you think a 'SBMod' would have?

lol.

I don't see the staking board mod as someone who commentates on value or terms and conditions.  I don't think they should really stop anyone buying and selling unless someone is a serial offender/known fraudster etc.

I think what they could do is insist some people have to put a warning in their posts.  Eg Guy has to admit that he had a previous stake that went sour and provide a link.  Marc has to link to the previous thread on his scamming and provide current status and if someone has done multiple did not completes that can go in too.

If they don't put the obligatory warning agreed by the mods, they can't use the board anymore.  

And I just think people should take things less personally. I dunno, if someone says you aren't worth 40% just show them the evidence.  

The blonde mods don't have to grasp all the issues involved

The board was set up on the sole proviso that it was modded for flaming and that staking requests themselves, nuts and bolts/ perceived value, etc was not modded

We set up some guidelines, issued a template with user help and for four years it has self policed very well

The fact that recently a few people have spoken up about perceived problems in some requests is a good thing. Shows that self-policing is working well

Proof read staking requests, arbitrate disputes, compile a list of acceptable clauses.

Going back to Bram's well argued example.

Maybe the mod would think the clause was fine.

Maybe the mod would think the clause was too ambiguous and ask for a figure to be inserted. IE Bram would be entitled to buy back his action if he copped 100k or more for his stakers.

Or maybe the mod would think the clause was fine.

Whichever the decision, it would have saved a big debate.

I agree.

I like to have a punt now and again not having time for poker myself.

Just see it as a bit of a gamble and like all punters hope to get lucky. Often it's because I like the person
or just giving someone a chance to have a crack in a bigger competition.

I pays my money and take my chance.

Most of us are over 21. And should decide themselves. Don't fancy the value offered don't buy-in to the horse.

Lets not put off first timers putting up a staking thread. We can all read what is on offer and then make our own decisions

Regards

M

But Keith, might there not be just as big a debate about the decision?

What I mean is, if it's a decision that no one would argue with, there is no need for a decision.

Why is a big debate a problem?

Who is to say the outcome of a debate is not a more reliable result that one person or a small group of people's decision, with all the biases that they could contain?

In the Bramm instance, there was a good debate. Didn't harm things at all

If you don't want debate, as someone asking for staking, put up a plain vanilla proposal.

This, so much this.

I have said here that I think Guy was out of order for the way he stopped his last stake.

However, that doesn't mean I don't trust him, like him and wouldn't buy a share in him in the future.

He probs thinks I'm a ***** for what I said, but when I post in staking threads it's purely business.# and nothing I say should be taken personally.

People might find it difficult to believe but I actually like railtard. But I do.

proof read staking requests seems ridiculous, you put up a good detailed staking request = more likelihood of selling out.

If someone includes a clause you don't like you don't buy it's quite simple, I didn't think Chris' clause was unfair, yes I think that it impinges somewhat on the value of the stake however as such a good value stake imo he can have more 'right' to add a clause like that especially with how much easier than alot of other people he will sell out.

I don't see how a mods decision saves a debate, if the topic is good/contentious enough then it can be debated and those less informed can learn from better informed peoples opinions.


As someone said above things just need to not be taken personally. It frustrates me no end when I will be talking to someone and a name will come up and their play or value may be critiqued and then someone will snap reply oh but their a really nice person. We are not talking about the same thing, them being nice reflects no way on their poker abilities and vice versa.  People need to take criticism and be able to back up what they say, if you are charging a markup you should be able to explain why you are and why YOU THINK that's valid. Other people may not agree with you and that's fine they wont invest.


It also changes massively when someone like flushy posts a thread, you don't need links and links and I'm trustworthy for xyz reason so his post could be 'selling xyz, 1%=$45k, 1.8 markup cos I is bawse'

if a new user posts that though you'd expect them to be flamed to bits.

I hadn't made a thread in the staking boards before and even though I felt I knew alot of people on here/could be easily vouched for I wanted to put up all the information I would if I were selling to people I didn't know.  Some people take the piss with how little they put, how much markup they charge and what they want to play etc, we should encourage people to post if they think it's pants.

Just in relation to your proof reading bit take Plenos recent OP for staking and compare it to some random newish posters couple of liner, honestly who do you think is going to be a better prospect in competitive games of today, the guy who includes pictures, bolded sub headings and detailed information or the punter with 3 lines and awful grammar?

The debate in itself wasn't a problem, but there was no definitive outcome.

I think there should be a guide or template to what is acceptable in staking proposals, so when the bink happens.. no one feels screwed or cheated.

Better to have a decision/policy BEFORE people gt angry/fall out than after, surely?

or maybe, we just all check our birth certificates, realise we are all old enough to make our own decisions and continue to buy and sell our own proposals without the need for school teacher to tell us what they think of it.  If someone flames, gets out of line or posts without meeting the 300 post threshold a mod removes it anyway or warns accordingly.


sorry keith, you normally make a lot of sense but on this i'm just not seeing the point to this suggested over regulation

I don’t favour the idea of staking mods but have enjoyed reading the debate. Any member should be free to put up whatever they like and see if it sells. What the board does need though is fair impartial comment. If negative comment is passed on a current thread it’s akin to somebody walking around with a placard outside your business putting customers off. Who would take kindly to that? Especially if another business benefits from free advertising. Suddenly the market isn’t fair.

What the board needs is a protocol section where staking issues are discussed to find a general consensus of conduct. Horses can be rated on various criteria including profitability and reliability. Before I go & watch a film or a show, or book a restaurant, or go on holiday I find it helpful to log onto rating websites and get a broad spectrum of opinions. Sites like eg rotten tomatoes produce an overall rating for films. This approach is better than one or two people offering opinions because a) maybe those opinions have an agenda and b) they are just singular opinions.

there is a template. If the consensus is that it should be expanded for things like forex/tips etc (after the event issues) then fine

However that template should still be self policed, in my opinion


As someone who set up the boards (with significant help), did the guidelines, wrote the template and has read every thread in there..I see what passes through the mods room, my PMs on a weekly basis..people asking for advice, offering opinions etc and that's without the mods actually modding anything except flaming!

Believe me, a Staking Board Mod would need to devote significant time to this, and hand on heart I'd tell anyone to think very carefully before taking it on

Self policing is by far the best option in my opinion. I totally agree that self policing is easier is people both express and receive criticism in a business-like rather than personal fashion

I do not agree.

So if I were to put up a thread selling for DTD 500, I am charging 4500% markup because I am a fking G. No one can come in and post that this is a shit offer because what; because they're putting off the people who don't know better, oh no cry me a river. If something looks and smells like shit, just say its shit.


If I get shit service from somewhere I tell my friends and we are all better informed about how shit it is.


Similarly a 'general consensus' is rubbish, considering that stakes differ in terms of profitability, event, player reliability etc etc

there are a tonne of people I wouldn't back with certain clauses in the agreement, however there are a select few like Keys sorry Bram who I think are a better proposition than most so would be more willing to have them included.


IMO within the staking community I would respect certain peoples opinions alot more than a group of 10k randoms opinions.

Actually this isn't a bad idea.

As I said at the start of this, I was basically thinking out loud.

Just feels like there have been quite alot of disputes and arguments recently.

I don't *know* a staking board mod would solve this, but it felt like a decent shot at a solution.

One day, there might be a dispute like the T May affair on 2+2, which involves tens of thousands of pounds.

That could get really nasty.

It hardly seems a good idea.




This is really hard for me to make my point without naming people or 'types' of threads........


NO OFFENCE BUT....etc



how do threads with no money invested by the OP get rated?

ratings will depend on who is voting and their relationship with OP. are we having a popularity contest or is everyone guesstimating just how +ev they are?

remember that most people seem to have little or no idea what is going on half the time with regards to markup and the possibility of actually knowing someones true lifetime live ROI how profitable the stake was etc.

Yes but blonde provides a service for buyers and sellers and stays at arms length (flaming apart) We don't charge a fee/take a commission, it stays entirely non-commercial and we don't get involved if it goes wrong -  unless the mods decided that a forum ban is necessary.

caveat emptor. Not asking you to suck eggs Keith, but for inexperienced people do your research, exercise caution, don't stake money you can't afford to lose. If in doubt don't do it

Same advice as always

Hmmm I wonder if Alex has considered this with his site?

Assuming his site takes a fee, if someone gets scammed, would the site/Alex be open to legal action from the wronged party?

All this discussion seems a bit unnecessary.

The staking boards have been around for ~4 years and only one or two issues have really arisen in that time out of hundreds of threads.

I can think of 4 issues in the last month! (And another one is likely to hit the front page very soon, I believe)

don't know Keith

I do know that before we set up staking boards on here we had long discussions on what they should look like, what the position of blonde should be

We felt by far the best approach then was to be at arms length, and make it explicit what we would mod, and what a wronged member could not come to us for. Namely redress

You could argue with justification that the staking boards on here now are more sophisticated in their proposals, certainly involved larger sums of money. Very happy to expand templates if needed in light of this

Less convinced personally that a system of self regulation needs to be replaced by regulation. Can be convinced, but not yet I'm not

Taking it a stage further, the highest profile problem on here was Blatch, which was not actually on the staking boards. Financials apart, that ended not with us banning Blatch, but he's never posted since. Self-Regulation in action, namely he's banned himself, probably very sensibly

are any of them situations that couldn't have been avoided by a more thoroughly worded proposal?

I was thinking more feedback scores from backers about their experience with a stake rather than just randoms. Like ebay feedback. So eg if a backer doesn't get paid the horse has a logged negative feedback score. I don't know why just one person's opinion would be better than everybody's opinion. But if you wanted a single opinion it would still be available to you in that format.

I like this idea. A feedback thread on stakers on which anyone can post with + or - rep.

Yes.

2 for sure, probably 3.

Can I put forward PokerStrategy.coms perspective or will it be deleted? It works well and has had 4.3m posts in the forum..

we have a page where somebody makes a thread, in the thread they have to follow a basic guideline but it is not too strict, they also have to have 300 posts. The board is left open, but if they dont have 300 posts the thread is deleted if they make another one, they are blocked.

They have to include at least one reference, which is usually vouching for the guy.

They then have to have a feedback thread which is a seperate thread and in this thread they give updates and stakees talk about it there is any problems etc.

The other side should have right of reply obv.

It's happened on here with Guy, to choose a current one

'ty shipped will back again' in response to money being paid out is the same thing though right? that's what I do.


you could deffo incorporate the stars on the left under a persons name to equate to how many stakes have been done without hiccups/how much physical dollar has been paid out to give people 'a guide' to what to expect.



If you open a thread of someone you know is a twatty grimmer and yet you subscribe to your 'cant post bad stuff' how are other people going to know about this person? I think all threads should be open to people posting good/bad feedback and criticism, questions with regards to markup and reasoning and gentle well meaning flames.  Anyone who obviously trolls threads will be called out on it, that's how flaming works!


Keith what sort of issues are you talking about specifically?

Just thought of another recent issue!

I do think silent (pmed) bids in auctions should be banned.

because it opens up the possibility of fictional bids/rate fixing?

Absolutely

Go on.... No teasing us!

Titty for staking mod

Just been explaining to Jake the difference between noseyness and curiosity!

+1 on this.  Just open to shady practice.

im with MC here.

It's worked for 4 years....

1. Requestor puts a staking thread up
2. You stake or you ask more questions then stake or you let others stake.
3. Requestor Sells out and advises.

There you go.

Ok perhaps issues was a bad word. Whilst issues have been raised, I don't think they have affected the occurrence/outcome of a stake.

How many stakes have really gone wrong or needed any mediation that didn't involve betting on tennis, or involve someone called Fergus...

Well there are many different kinds of staking...

Nice work.

does any of this take into consideration my insane hedge?

:D:D:D

Only disputes ive seen are from people poking their nose into staking threads that they have no intention of investing in, and quite frankly just being nosey and obstructive.
Staking threads are so dependant on the market forces that will always decide if they are good or bad value. Ridic that a mod should interfere or anyone else that is not a genuine investor IMHO.

This was pretty much the status quo, when the staking boards started and we had at least a couple of issues. Where nobody said anything and blondes invested in people who were flakey. Then we had the whole debate whether people should intervene.

Having a mod as some sort of arbitrator is moot because their decisions aren't enforceable. "So you're saying that I can either pay out $x or I get banned from the blonde staking board? Sweet. Cya."

Having clear and concise staking proposals is really what we're after but that is a good thing both for buyers and for sellers. When the desired outcome is of benefit to both parties, what we need is education not regulation. As it stands, the buyers know that having better quality staking threads is a good thing for them. You can see what you're buying and make an assessment as to its value pretty quickly.

Some sellers aren't on board yet as to why posting better quality proposals is good for them. Let people know that they will generate more interest in their proposal if it is clean and concise. Make it easier for sellers to create good quality proposals by bringing the FAQ and the template up to date then it seems like problem solved? Keys has been doing this for a little while and his contributions have had a big net positive effect on the forum imo. There have been very few junky, non-starter type threads that are much more likely to run into problems and even the quality of regular sellers posts have improved (mine included) compared to say a year ago.

The whole issue about caveats and auctions and stuff is ridiculous. If you don't like it then don't buy it. You can't dictate to sellers what you want their product to be.

my opinion is that  the board is fine as it is.

think its also very unfair or people to band about possible names for these mods job too.  something like this will be quite time intensive, and not be paid.

.       

Great post.  :)up

Taken me three hours, but finally get it.

 :respect:

He can say no.

This but its human nature unfortunately.

The way I see it, it's inevitable that a big issue occurs sooner or later.

Was just trying to think of ways to make this as unlikely as possible.

Maybe a mod isn't the right thing.

But surely having a TMay style fiasco is the worst thing possible.

Aggressive modding could have averted that issue easily.

TMay made an ambiguous statement in his proposal. A mod could have asked for clarification and it would never have become a problem.

cliffs on the Tmay thing pls?

Think he put up a proposal

People asked for %s

He ran deep in event but didn't state %s were booked

I've been out tonight caught up with this thread on the train, read a bit - however apologies if I am repeating points already made.

I am against any moderation for a number of reasons. Firstly, I think staking will never be "regulated", so introducing a formal role has little value and could potentially give Blonde some commercial risk.  The value it would add would only be at a moral or values level; and then only based on the individual appointed.  The same outcome can, and to a great extent has been achieved by self policing.

I think it's fairly simple; if you stake you have to make a risk based assessment of all the factors involved. This is easier for some, as over time you have dealings with individuals and get to know people within the poker scene - in essence you have access to more information that enables you to make better decisions.  If you don't have sufficient info - either go find it, as LilDave suggested or chose not to get involved in the stake - your own personal risk analysis.  Over time you build relationships, knowledge, and the ability to make better decision; however always a chance the relationship may go sour - you just reduce the likehood.  Only this week a blonde asked me about a staking situation, a horse - and I gave an honest answer, which fortunately in this case was top guy, great admin, in my view 100% solid.  Clearly, that is no guarantee - but the person who asked me, trusts me, so hence likelihood of advice being good is better. People make there own choices and base it on their experiences and that's there choice. And they have the option to ask for help, I am a pretty regular staker and have been staked - and along with the others that get involved I have no issues with people asking me how a deal has gone, or asking Flushy, Tikay etc about how I have paid.  Equally, if a proposal is not up to scratch, either ask for more info or simply don't invest - its not tricky.

It's a personal decision; I love Tikays approach to staking which is "I right it off at the point I stake" - that's not to say he doesn't base his decisions ons one logic and wanting a return, however it's a good attitude to have.

So my summary is I would encourage everyone to be sure before they invest, ask questions, seek opinions if they are not sure and the take responsibility for their staking - and in the 1% chance it's a grim or a problem, whilst trying to deal with it accept responsibility that there was always a chance an issue may occur.

This is from memory - figures may not be 100% correct but the actions/comments are correct

He was looking to sell 20% his action for some 10k tournament.

Immediately two guys posted offering to buy 5% and 2%.

He posted "ship the money to pokerstars and you are booked"

Three or four days passed, the proposal slipped down to page 3 or 4 of the forum.

Someone then bumped by saying "3% please"

Immediately followed by someone saying "rest" ie 10%.

Both then posted - shipped to Pokerstars. Well before tournament began.

Then after day 1 when he had a top 5 stack, TMay shows up and says, those last two pieces are not booked, even though he posted "ship the money to pokerstars and you are booked"

He said that statement only applied to the two posters who had replied and he didn't know how to quote posts.

He sent the money back.

Huge furore ensues.

He ends up coming second or chopping the the tournament or something and not paying the two stakers.

That's interesting Keith, would you ship stars to someone on a thread before they have responded and said "booked"? See I wouldn't, never have - until I have had confirmation, a pm or message in the thread.  My point is, that's my responsibility and decision - not making out like I'm great I am sure at some point I will get turned over. 

In this case, yes I think I would have.

He really should have quoted the posts when making his statement.

It clearly looks like it's an open invitation to anyone who wants a piece to send it on Stars and be booked.

I'm 99% sure it wasn't a scam, and it was down to his stupity. But he should have honoured those stakes. At the very least should have paid out the equity on his stack on day 1 (when he realised he'd got the money)

He was absolutely freerolling the two guys as it was. If he had busted on day 1 he could have kept the money.

personally i only like to stake people i know or failing that have absolutely spotless reputations with zero baggage.

I have no idea why such a huge deal is being made re staking.

I would say the majority of requests have gone without incident and there have been some very successful ventures.

On top of that we're all adults. We all know the risks with any investment whether it be poker or any other type of investment.

Sometimes you aren't going to get your money back.

As someone who was stung by someone close, it would be easy for me to be cynical and not trust anyone in the poker community again. However if that were the case I would probably be doing a ton of overtime at work as I wouldn't have a backer who trusts me implicitly with often large sums of money

This definitely isn't true, clearly seen by the fact the rest of the forum is modded and there are loads of debates about decisions they make.

Whilst I agreed Simon would be a very good staking Mod, I don't think one is needed. Things seem to work fine as they are, pretty massive overreaction to Keys' poor response to one of the threads was totally blown out of proportion and he is obv still a good poster to have for guidance in that section. But even before Keys it worked fine.

Think it would be a pretty bad idea for blonde as a business to have official mods for staking when they don't have any involvment in threads that go wrong if people get grimmed, just seems like it could get messy.

I agree that it is inevitable that something big will happen at some point in time, but that isn't a reason to enact 'aggressive modding' which creates a great deal of extra work and red tape.

When people use scissors, someone will inevitably cut themselves. We don't make scissors less sharp because then they would be less effective at what is a very useful function. Instead we educate people as to the dangers of using scissors recklessly.

I'd rather give the staking community on blonde some credit than mollycoddling. In the wake of the Blatch scandal people have sharpened up and as someone with extensive experience of both buying and selling on blonde I think it works very well. It didn't exactly take long for the collective to highlight the caveat in Brams post and analyse it.

 

Fair enough.

As I said, it was an idea that came to me and I thought it might work.

It just seems people are pretty precious about their staking threads and one bit of questioning/criticism and the toys come out of the pram.

It's business ffs.

As for the TMay thing, if these people want to use pieces of info that were clearly not directed at you as a signal to send someone money then gl with life. They're going to need it.

There is absolutely no need to expose yourself to financial transactions where ambiguity exists or may exist.

As I said, it certainly was not clearly directed at anyone.

It looked like an open invitation for anyone to send money and be booked.

As far as I'm concerned its clear as day. You don't send money before your action is confirmed as booked. You have to protect yourself and these guys learned a valuable lesson that imo should be clear to everybody anyway.

As far as I remember nearly 100% of posts on that very long thread (including several of his friends) felt TMay should pay up.

That isn't surprising given the relatively relaxed attitude towards ambiguity in OPs on 2p2. That just wouldn't fly on blonde because the community would pick up on it.

I'm confident that I speak for most of the regular buyers on blonde when I say that we would not have sent money in that spot.

Struggling to make this any clearer without repeating myself

Guess we'll have to agree to differ.

The ambiguity is why I had a problem with Bram's caveat.

I buy 5% of Bram, go away for a few days. I turn my computer on and see he's binked a bracelet only to check my email and find out he's opted out of the stake the night before he played it, I would have been spitting blood.

If he had said in his proposal "I reserve the option to buy back my action if I have won $100k or more on the stake already". I would have had zero problem with it.

As it was, he could have bought a share in Tikay's HiLo bracelet.. and bought back his action despite it being a losing stake.. (I don't think he would, but the caveat gave a more unscrupulous player the chance to do that).

Anyways, I've wasted enough time on all this tonight.

What would have happened if somebody shipped on pokerstars but not posted on the thread and hence it was already sold out ?

Those who sent were stupid and Tmay was sloppy which does look suspicious .

Sandy

But surely as a genuine investor you would of just raised any issues you had before sending any funds. A simple pm asking the very question ' how much are we talking about before you want to buy back the action ? "
All this 'what if 'and ' i would of not been happy about' are poor examples because surely you would of made sure that you are investing on terms you are happy with.
Why should the 'seller' be drawn over the coals about his proposal by non-buyers that have issues with it.
Obviously it just wont sell if it's that bad a deal for the investor and the seller would have to take a look again at their proposal.

 

No SBM needed, IMO, just a re-clarification of guidelines with an emphasis on ambiguity or lack of.
If stakees/stakers decide not to follow the advice given then on their own heads be it.

Well if i ever put an op up, with OPR and acceptable facts, gl everyone if someone chooses to question it after that. Atm there is clearly a one rule for one, one rule for another, depending on who is liked by certain members.

what for example you charge 1.7 for a really tough event and people question it then. extreme case obv but lets say its closer and somebody thinks otherwise, then what?

Which rules are these?

Reckon it's a good time to put up a staking 70/30 staking thread?

:dontask:

its shown that 70/30 cases don't always get ridiculed.

look at the tood swain case for example, i even punted 50% :D

Well if i put up 1.7 for a DTD live event then I'm not sure someone should question it. Market decides etc, bit unfair to ruin people's action because your more outspoken. CBA to bring up Key's and Dreenie again, but if i was on Guys end, if you see what I mean, I'd be absolutely steaming. The politics of blonde is why I've stayed away from the staking forum.

People questioning it, if they choose to, is the market deciding

Got to expect scrutiny, and if the proposal stacks up there won't be a problem

There is no "politics of blonde". It's all market forces.

Offering advice and recommendations is a fair enough system. Just think people should be mindful when offering their advice in a public arena. Obv there's no law that says it has to be quality and unbiased but I think it is an important aspect of your character. Saying somebody is a good guy influences people who trust you and your judgement. So why risk telling people somebody is a good guy if there is doubt? There is a lot of talk about sample size on this forum and that you can't really make any accurate judgements about a player until thousands of hands have been processed. Yet people will commit to saying a horse is a good guy and a good prospect based on a dozen or so previous stakes. Unless you have a golden rep across that tiny sample size you clearly aren't a good prospect or indeed a good guy.

Market forces lead to people commenting on some peoples stakes and not others though. I would never post on anyones thread saying, not sure if the value is here, but people will on mine, because I'm not as well known, despite me possibly having a bigger edge etc. The longer you've been here, the less likely someone is to question it. If Ben Martin "Cheezies" came along and posted a live staking thread, people might comment, ruining his action here, without knowing anything about him. Whereas if Dan Morgan/Me/Lildave comment first saying 10% then it wouldn't be questioned afterwards. "Politics of blonde" might not be the right phrase, but I believe the market should decide by buying or not buying action, instead of commenting. If i put up a thread for the next DTD £500 @ 1.45, it would speak volumes if people didn't buy any action, instead of people commenting. I might not want to sell at less than this, so people saying to me "Markup looks a little high" ruins my action, adds nothing to me, and negatively effects me. Doesn't really seem fair that no one would do the same to others, such as Dan Morgan for the WSOP ME, but are happy to not buy, and not comment.

Disclaimer: These are just examples and not what i truly believe, Dreenie's thread probably was ok value for a sunday, especially with the offer @ spot on another Sunday, and so was Dan Morgans imo.

Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is there is a very thin line between ruining action, and preventing scams/ scamlike markups, and I'm not sure people on the forum can make that decision.

Call me old fashioned, but I still like to think everyone has a good rep until there is reason to think otherwise.  That said, I'm not a complete soft touch!  I won't give someone a bunch of money to go to Vegas and say "have a nice time, let me know how much you have when you get back"  until I know them exceptionally well over a long period.  Nor will I normally get involved for live cash game staking.  Whilst it may be profitable done correctly, it isn't of interest for me and I have heard of/thought of too many ways to get done over.  It's why I generally don't stake people for Vegas full stop.  Vegas has a very strong pull, I lose count of the number of stake requests promising "no drinking, in bed by midnight, this is a work trip" and then 2 days later, FB photos suggest they are having a good time in Pepppermints at 08:30......(or, ahem, they are sat next to me at the time  ;whistle;)  

So whilst others are strutting around defending their decision to charge 1.5, I'm more likely to be thinking that whilst they may be worth 50% on their best form, they are also likely to be spending a portion of their playing time very tired, distracted by a multitude of other happenings and, in some cases, still pissed.  Difficult to think that their average performance will be 150% territory.

When the time comes for me to put up a staking request I won't be accepting anyone's money unless they have flamed me first. It's the best bit about the staking boards imo

No - you don't understand the Guy thing.  FWIW - I have met Guy once, really like the guy and have no ill feeling as one of his stakers in the long run on his thread; however the point being made was about his new threads, Sundays etc when he was effectively in make up - it wasn't a random pop at Guy or different standards or politics.  I think, for example if Monda busted hbis roll for the $35s and was in make up then put "one day $35" schedule up affter ceasing staking he would get challenged and we all love him.  We can debate the rights of wrongs of where / how it was bought up - but I think its a legitimate challenge and not about "favourites" or "politics"

Also - I have never pushed it with Guy, because, back to my original post, I chose to stake him, I wasn't clear on secondary schedules, make long term etc, so in essence my fault and no re-course

but Ben couldn't post one until he has 300 posts, by which time people will have an idea what he is about

Personally I see nothing wrong with people questioning any proposal. I'd prefer and think its more useful when the feedback is constructive and kept away from personal views. Its business, to coin the phrase used in here

The fact that it might be regarded that someone asking for staking who has made a sustained contribution to the community might get, in your opinion, a softer ride than someone who hasn't is a fact of life. Sometimes people stake someone not just for EV reasons, on here especially

This is important as well - not every stake is a hard-headed business decision. There are many people who will give a -EV punt on someone they like in a bowl comp and will do so with eyes wide open for the sweat. Not sure these stakees need a policeman deriding them for lack of stats or markup which is .2 too high.

I posted in that staking caveats thread questioning a proposal and it wasn't personal at all. The next two replies were 'yawn' from skolsuper and 'trolling for the sake of it' from op. These are two guys who regularly offer their own opinions in other people's staking threads. So the inbalance I see is that some people feel obliged to question proposals for the 'good of the community' but then accuse others of trolling or rudeness when they or their friends are on the receiving end. It should be one or the other. So while I agree with you I see this other guy's point.

I see his point too

On a forum full of entrenched opinions about some people, by other people its tricky to

a) ensure all staking feedback is constructive (ie "yawn" and "stop trolling" replies need to be avoided, really)

b) ensure those in receipt of feedback from certain quarters take it without being thin-skinned. This sensitivity has definitely been a problem at times

As Camel says, don't take it personally.

Mantis, the new thin skinned mantis

If people decide to troll one thread and approve of another based on personal likes/dislikes they are taking a subjective view - this is OK

If they want to say 'yawn' to you and 'wp' to someone else they are taking a subjective view - this is OK

Somebody, lets say Keys, exhibits some inconsistencies in views - this is OK.

If someone's staking request doesn't sell because of a few neg comments from a perceived clique member - this is OK. If the case had overwhelming merit it would sell.

What all everyone is whinging about is really hard to determine and appreciate

Bunch of over sensitive girls imo - this is not subjective - I'm honely tuckin on facts

I love nirvana and find it hard to take him on using my usual techniques. Must be a hard ass to bluff imo.

:-) I'll have to get this in my sig

Oh he is. He couldn't fold a hankie.

Well pardon me for being pissed if Keys ever ruins my action ^.^

I'm not sure the, post whatever, it is your opinion, holds as much credit in the staking section as it does anywhere else. It certainly isn't a plus point for the forum if certain members perceive others as controlling the forum for their own purpose either, not that I think that.

@rfgqqabc

I don't think that it is the case at all that the more frequent posters can 'ruin action' for less frequent stakees. Continuing the Keys example, the fact that James might not think that a proposal represents good value isn't going to instantly put me off. I respect his opinion but there is plenty that we disagree about.  Actually I can't think of any stakes off the top of my head that we both had pieces of.

George2Loose's EPT London staking thread got flamed pretty hard for his markup but it still sold out. My 10k HU thread got some flack from The Camel and Dubai who are both respected heads up players and still sold out so I don't think its really fair to accuse people of killing your or anyone elses action. If you have the numbers to justify your prices then you'll definitely sell out and even if you don't, as long as its not for >£1k buyin you're likely to sell out anyway because blondes #lovethegame

people keep say killing their action like they have a right to sell out at inflated markup.


if someone questions your thread, your markup or you and they've bought pieces before you should have to answer them not just complain. If some complete and utter troll posts then it should just be deleted it's pretty simple.

What about if the troll is asking for staking?

rest. xx

Ha, whatever it is Jase just post it up !

:)

There are some good tournies in Marakesch I herd.

FYP

I didn't say it had happened, i said it could. Not really been round blonde enough or looking at the staking forum enough. Tired of posting on this thread now, raised my points so I'll leave into the night, leaving a string of letters carved into the wall behind.

I will defo include that 6 figure score in any op

what score was that Jason? ;)

The 5 figure one

It was actually 280,000 Moroccan dirhams. Bloody hell getting flamed and called a liar even before I put up a staking request :)

Is a shark any good on sharkscope? Had a star before but gonna assume they have gotta be better than a fish or pile of sick

Jase if you put anything more than your Herbert Mob i'd prob not buy, just saying yo.

Yeah pretty sure my OPR reads lol bad but then I can just say its not a relevant sample size to draw any conclusions :)

IS IT

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/163/staking-selling-shares-online/urgent-seeking-backing-today-1225363/

Loving his screen name. 

He has even doctored his sharkscope

I am not a huge fan of 2+2 but I have to give credit to a couple of their staking mods.  The likes of D.S and R.W on there regularly sniff out and ban duplicate accounts or accounts with proven links to grimmers.  They also do a lot of spade-work advising against iffy posts and pointing potential backers towards the evidence, where those people are too lazy/unaware to gather the evidence for themselves. 

The negative feedback thread in particular is a very valuable staking tool.  Anyone considering staking someone should be scraping that thread at a minimum - it is the staker's equivalent of the Griffin book.

Can you put up a link to this thread is possible please.

Whilst I would ordinarily check with Blonde before linking another poker site, this one is soooo much in the interests of poker that I can't imagine they will have an issue...

Negative Feedback Thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/102/marketplace/negative-feedback-thread-marketplace-all-subforums-549322/)

Bloody hell. Just clicked it. 101 pages

101 pages. Thats all you need to know!

No issue, obviously

It's not a thread you read through! (although I use it so much that I effectively have) It is a reference tool, pop potential stakee email/skype/sn's/2+2 username into the advanced search functionality and if it brings anything back, walk away.  It's tough to have too much sympathy for a backer that gets burned where a 20 second Google search would have prevented it.

You're doing it wrong.

2p2 has a great function where you get 100 posts per page. I highly recommend.

I don't think so.....

I was trying - badly it seems - to make a point.

Yeah, I did get the point - excuse my rather sarcastically bad humour. Bad timing.

However, considering people will always naturally post more negative than positive feedback, there is only ~40 posts difference between the number of posts in the above linked thread and the corresponding positive feedback thread.

Maybe we could have one of these as well?

The positive feedback thread is nothing like as valuable.  First of all, it has lots of feedback from other areas of the marketplace, not staking-specific.  But more fundamentally, positive feedback for a stakee = "a reference" which backers could and should furnish one another with easily enough as part of the process.

This isn't a dig at Alex but i'm bamboozled by people bidding 1.5 in his latest auction. I thought that was a high price anyway, but then came the revelation of 20% tax on the winnings. And people still bid 1.5! Alex is a good player, and it may be a soft tournament, but come on...

I played LAPT Uruguay a couple of years ago.

One of the softest tournaments I've ever played.

20% please when the thread goes up

 :)

Struggling to get in the TTAWPT (Tyne, Tees and Wear Poker Tour) Darlington at the moment, I'll let you when things improve enough for me to travel more than 40 miles from home :)

form and class mate. Something always pops up eventually.

Did you win it?

Surprisingly enough. No.

:)@the reply not@the result

Would 1.5 w/ 20% tax on winnings have been a good price? What do you think your ROI is in such an event?

The current staking thread is one of the worst I have seen on that board, it has so many holes in it.

Strangely enough none of the usual suspects that like to police that board have ridiculed it yet.

Why do mods have to start posts with "this isn't a dig at Alex" these days. Tighty did it with the 300 posts thing and even tikay assumed the position on his knees.

His latest Columbia auction is obv not value with the 20% tax but so what. He is a decent egg, posts plenty on blonde and should feel the love and generosity of the guys.  He is getting the bids and it's not like he is selling amassive %age anyway.

I think he should have to stick to the 300 post rule myself as he ain't bigger than blonde and its like having your cake and eat it. If you want the blonde love stick to the rules if not just sell on Facebook.

Even I pussy foot around him because he is a little more sensitive than most :)

its what I said, its getting the very best deal for op and people are happy to pay, but people often buying don't understand roi/expected value well enough, only problem is if the money runs out but of course it never will, but for people buying for 15 years+ it will kill them if they continue to regular buy.

the auctions just a really bad thing for the staking section imo and will see some ridiculous prices, but its always good for the op when they know they will 100% sell out.

i'll always do the traditional way of selling and in the future traditional way of buying, although with keys main event cash i'm a lifetime winarrrrrrrrrr for auctions.

The new guideline wasn't a dig at anyone. Pleno kept insisting it was. I had to clarify,Jason.

and yes, everyone has to stick to what we require to use the staking board. Don't like it, don't use it.

 

It said "this isn't a dig at alex" because I was using his current thread to make a point. If someone else had started it I would use their name instead. Just trying to make it clear that it was the prices and more the people buying that I was questioning, rather than the person selling. And being a mod has nothing to do with it :)

I have to disagree Rich, I think that is a little unfair.

If Alex has  a diary he can receive bids from people with less than 300 post's on there, that isn't sticking to the rules set out is it?

I really think that board needs to be far more regulated than it is if I am honest, that doesn't mean I am having a dig I just think that with the amounts of cash going around it needs to be a lot tighter than it is.

I saw someone suggest this a while ago, If you get staked on there and a problem of any kind arises is there a format for highlighting this in the posters settings, for example say ( late paying when staked Sept 20011) or ( Didn't play events he took staking stakes for July 2102) or even some of the request being judged on how fair they are(  puts up poor value requests)

You may know there is/has been a problem recently with someone that there should not have been a problem with, is it fair that this person can freely ask for stakes again without any note of this episode being added to their profile?

I truly believe this is a one off for this guy but the next time a stake is asked for it will probably get a different set of stakers and some of the current ones will swerve it because of the problems this time around. So if that stake goes wrong too then who has protected those people when many others on here would/could have prevented this?

Is it down to the people affected to 'out' the guy with all that entails or is there a responsibility to clamp down on this by the site providing the facility?

hm rly

pretty ridic, the forum is for the people.

should be our forum not yours imo.

supply/demand are main things behind forum.

i dont think there is any forum in world that has a staking section and wouldn't allow X or Y to buy a piece from fb etc.

How is this even going to be moderated, I can just say, oh only selling 45% now or I can want to sell 50% but advertise 40% expecting to sell 10% offline then if its not sold, oh gonna sell another 10 guys.

Auctions are stupid IMO. If I were to sell for a tournament at 1.3 I could just set the reserve at 1.3 and freeroll at getting higher (assuming I'd have no trouble hitting 1.3). They suck all the value out of the marketplace for the buyer and rely on punters coming in looking for a sweat.

The point about taking bids on diaries is why I mentioned it to Alex yesterday, on his diary. Doing that consistently is pushing it, and would rather not see it

Your other points are well made.

exactly this. The current one is in bad taste, badly thought out and terrible value. It is simply a new way of grinding out a small set of stakers to pay way over the odds.

1) not everyone is a scammer like you rupert :)
2) name names Bobby :) has a stake gone wrong or is it a stakee got into bother off forum
3) would this forum be a better place if it did actually belong to me and you Patrick :)

The <300 posts to stake and be staked is a protection for both sides of the board

It can certainly be moderated, but to do so often would be heavy handed though I think we'd prefer to request people keep as much of it on that board as possible, rather than in diaries or PMs where supply/demand can be manipulated

All this "for the people" stuff is all very noble but lets be realistic. There are people charged to moderate the forum, for a business with shareholders. No set up like that is not going to allow a completely laissez faire attitude. I'd suggest you are a bit more realistic.

This is a bit naive.

The forum exists to sell advertising and sponsorship so that Blonde owners and blonde employees can get some return for their efforts.

A by product, is that we all gain a free, and excellent, resource. Being a virtuous circle, our participation in the free resource generates a monetary value for Blonde.

It should be obvious that it doesn't really matter if the auctions go from here to another place as they can't possibly be material in the overall success of the forum

Auctions are an awful idea and only work for the smallest minority of people who want to sell action. In general it's just absolutely awful.

Ye

would it not just make more sense for blonde to ban auctions. in the guideliens it shows how to sell a stake not to do auctions and the "people" seem to prefer it how it was. I'm sure if the guys who do sell auctions want to sell at a price like 1.9 or whatever then they will probably still be able too.

There is another problem with the reserve.  People should bid a different amount if they think 10% is available than they would if they thought 20% is available.  Basic supply and demand.  

I also don't get why there is a minimum price.  Don't you either believe in letting the market decide or not?  Obviously currently just a theoretical point as none of the auctions has failed yet.  

Open minded, but whilst personally I don't think auctions are likely to provide any value for those staking, transferring all the value of a stake to the person being staked, its not for me to say why a potential buyer might be interested in an auction

As we regularly see, people stake people on here for friendship, contribution to community, want to have a sweat etc. None of which are reliant on their view of the EV of the stake, auction or not

I think buyers display these characteristics in auctions, rather than just saying that there is an imbalance between some very savvy people setting auction processes and some less sophisticated people looking to buy, generally



The wider questions, namely is there a need to regulate the staking boards

eg a staking mod/s

eg a rep system +/- via threads or profiles

eg Intervention by mods when something looks out of line

are issues that were raised in The Camel's thread a week or so ago, and again have been raised in here...plenty of cans of worms there that are being considered

So far as we know, there is action taken on flaming on threads, and a set of basic guidelines

The question of whether the sophistication of the board is now such that a bigger control template is required is the pertinent one, I think

The question of whether the sophistication of the board is now such that a bigger control template is required is the pertinent one, I think.

I think this hits the nail on the head Rich.

I've bought a piece in JGCB for the Genting event in Stoke. Do I believe I have a purely financial +ve expectation here? If I'm honest, I'm not sure. (no offence John, win the world!). Perhaps I do, perhaps I don't, but it's largely irrelevant as it's not why I've bought.

Am I making this decision based purely on financial expectation? No. I read John's diary and I appreciate massively how open he is about his progress at online cash so far under Pleno's stewardship. I would have broken a long time ago and I appreciate his perseverance and positive attitude. This is why I have bought.


There may however be times when I make a decision to buy based purely on a perceived +ve financial expectation. If someone puts up a considerable online schedule, their OPR etc. and I am convinced the package represents value I may purchase 'blind' to the chap I am buying into. The motivation is wholly different to scenario A, though the end result is the same (my buying a stake).

I am fully aware of the risks in both scenarios.

For my money, we're all adults, and it's down to us to decide whether what we are buying represents 'value', whatever that means to us. Caveat emptor and all that. To my mind the forum has no responsibility (moral or financial) for the outcome of a stake.

Lil'dave is a winnar ofc and I can't wait for him to start breeding and bringing more, sensible, insightful, funny and clever people into the world.

Doobs sir, that is a fantastic post. Moarrrr pls

The rest of the stuff about auctions is interesting, I think Alex is a decent player but I wonder what his true expected ROI would be at £1k events over a decent sample.. Tough to make solid guesses tho.

I genuinely feel that I am good value at 1.2 but its so hard to prove it without significant online volume as keys mentioned in my first staking ideas thread.  I absolutely dont want to Grimm or have someone feel grimmed but im putting literally every hour sent into playing, talking to people and learning how to play this most amazing of games.

Apologies if I have offended anyone with my thread.

I've reread Alex's staking post just to check, and I still can't fathom how it can be described as 'in bad taste' or 'badly thought out'.

Hi Neil,

The post was put up without knowing there was a 20% deduction from the prize money. When it was pointed out the auction rules didn't change. It was just added to the front page of the request.

If it is bad value before the 20% is taken out and you then leave it when you realise the 20% will go then that is in bad taste imo. It just makes a mockery of the request and is clearly badly thought out if the biggest deal breaker isn't included initially.

It is also an auction with a fixed reserve that isn't divulged, the board is being used by people to get thu what they can, not offer genuine value staking opportunities.

If you were offered a stake and took it and then found out there would be 20% less prize money and then told the price was the same would you think that was fair?

When he realised there was a 20% deduction for tax he started a new thread that mentioned it.  I am not sure what else you wanted him to do on that score. 

I understand the points you are making, but :

- Alex closed the initial auction once he realised the tax situation, and started a new thread, therefore resetting the price (therefore I think your comment 'and then told the price was the same' isn't an accurate reflection)
- The reserve not being divulged is fine (imo), as long as it is independently moderated, which, in this instance, it is.
- The 'bad taste' comment doesn't reflect anything that Alex has done. He has put up a second thread, which is open and honest. If people still want to buy, they are doing so of their own volition, in full possession of the facts. If they buy at bad value, (although who can judge this accurately, god only knows), then that is their issue.

I think the only criticism that can be levelled at Alex is the fact he didn't research the tax situation before selling. Wouldn't judge him too harshly on that though.

well knowing that there was 20% to come out of the prize pool before putting up a staking request.

Alex has been critiquing other staking threads and trying to promote  friendly feedback which is good but if you are going to do that and then put up one of the worst request's on the board then you have to accept the critique too.

You are a clued up guy Neil, would you buy any part of that package at the prices?

imo we have gone past the point of buyer beware now and its only going to go one way in the future.

Why not critique on the actual thread? If you think people are being ripped off, feel free to say so. Don't have a sulk when people don't listen though and buy anyway.

Getting "good value" at an auction is surely an oxymoron.

20%is not being taken out of the prize pool but rather out of the winnings which makes a difference.

I am confused about people trying to stop adults from making independent irrational subjective decisions - odd.

It's not even close to being that bad.

As requested by Alex.

'Perhaps discussion should be moved to the new "staking discussion" thread rather than this one?'

I'm not sure where that came from Skippy, nobody is sulking. I didn't bring Alex's request up in this thread, it was a general discussion about staking and ROI, it developed into a wider topic and Alex's thread became relevant to the discussion.

the actual OP is good, and the prices being high aren't Alex's fault and are probably a testement to the good op.

It's just the auction that creates falses prices etc.

But who is who to say what is inflated, Alex even states 2.0 with the 20% tax would be good value still

I just don't get it, you cant explain why you're likely a ~50% ROI player but you are? or at least you yourself honestly believe you are. Just because YOU believe you are a massive winner due to your insane hedges doesn't mean you are or that you should charge markup. Think alot of people that get backed should be looking at whether they have any markup not what is the right amount and look to why they are selling in the first place. Auctions are just an awful idea which go against alot of the reasons why people should/do get staked imo.

Not quite sure what Bobbys getting at, just dont like Goulder?

I think "discussion" meant discussion of whether auctions were a good idea, the 300 post rule, the perception that blonde has high prices, whether the staking board needs moderating differently etc.

I think complaining that Alex's proposal is "one of the worst request's" belongs in his thread.