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Poker Forums => The Rail => Topic started by: Mohican on August 05, 2012, 02:08:35 PM



Title: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Mohican on August 05, 2012, 02:08:35 PM
As I understand it, if I call a raise on the river, I'm entitled to see that players cards if he tries to muck them. Is this considered really bad form? I know the accepted standard is to just let him fold but just wondered what others think if I asked to see your cards?
This is not something I've ever done,just more of a 'what if' question.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Skippy on August 05, 2012, 02:17:29 PM
You've answered your own question, yeah you can do it, but it's generally considered bad form to do so.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: corkeye on August 05, 2012, 02:19:56 PM
I never see if they muck nor do I ask to see if i'm scooping the pot. It's perceived as bad etiquette in the scene. On Pokerstars the options there to view his hand. I must admit, I do find it quite bizarre how over time its evolved into the perception of bad etiquette even though I stick to it and dont ask to see... but..you've paid to see shouldn't you have the right to see?


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: ackackackack on August 05, 2012, 02:27:48 PM
I never ask to see an opponents cards, because of the chance they may have the winning hand!  I generally play more Omaha than Hold'em and am very pleased when players muck.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: rfgqqabc on August 05, 2012, 02:47:10 PM
I want to see the hand, is there for collusion, and not so you can demand to see opponents hands. Feel free to wait for me to show, but don't ask to see my hand, its rude and a misuse of the rule itself.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Rockstar on August 05, 2012, 02:54:29 PM
I never see if they muck nor do I ask to see if i'm scooping the pot. It's perceived as bad etiquette in the scene. On Pokerstars the options there to view his hand. I must admit, I do find it quite bizarre how over time its evolved into the perception of bad etiquette even though I stick to it and dont ask to see... but..you've paid to see shouldn't you have the right to see?

It hasnt "evolved" from anything

Its allways been bad form to ask to see


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Jon MW on August 05, 2012, 02:59:54 PM
I never see if they muck nor do I ask to see if i'm scooping the pot. It's perceived as bad etiquette in the scene. On Pokerstars the options there to view his hand. I must admit, I do find it quite bizarre how over time its evolved into the perception of bad etiquette even though I stick to it and dont ask to see... but..you've paid to see shouldn't you have the right to see?

It hasnt "evolved" from anything

Its allways been bad form to ask to see

like rfgqqabc suggests the rule is there to prevent collusion, it isn't there to provide you with information - that's why it's bad form to ask (unless you think there has been collusion)


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: RioRodent on August 05, 2012, 03:01:05 PM
I never see if they muck nor do I ask to see if i'm scooping the pot. It's perceived as bad etiquette in the scene. On Pokerstars the options there to view his hand. I must admit, I do find it quite bizarre how over time its evolved into the perception of bad etiquette even though I stick to it and dont ask to see... but..you've paid to see shouldn't you have the right to see?

Clearly a the view of a hoody wearing yoot, who thinks live poker has evolved from the online game.

You haven't 'paid to see' anything... you have called because you think you have the best hand, if your opponent mucks just stack the chips with a smile.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Junior Senior on August 05, 2012, 03:30:34 PM
What annoys me is when I call and the other player waits to see if I turn over first so he can muck if losing. I just sit and wait until he either mucks or shows.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: smashedagain on August 05, 2012, 04:23:32 PM
I never see if they muck nor do I ask to see if i'm scooping the pot. It's perceived as bad etiquette in the scene. On Pokerstars the options there to view his hand. I must admit, I do find it quite bizarre how over time its evolved into the perception of bad etiquette even though I stick to it and dont ask to see... but..you've paid to see shouldn't you have the right to see?

Clearly a the view of a hoody wearing yoot, who thinks live poker has evolved from the online game.

You haven't 'paid to see' anything... you have called because you think you have the best hand, if your opponent mucks just stack the chips with a smile.
Not a defender of the youth in anyway but if you think you have the best hand why are you calling. If you think you have the best hand let's raise it up n get the max value :)


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: SuuPRlim on August 05, 2012, 04:42:44 PM
I never see if they muck nor do I ask to see if i'm scooping the pot. It's perceived as bad etiquette in the scene. On Pokerstars the options there to view his hand. I must admit, I do find it quite bizarre how over time its evolved into the perception of bad etiquette even though I stick to it and dont ask to see... but..you've paid to see shouldn't you have the right to see?

Clearly a the view of a hoody wearing yoot, who thinks live poker has evolved from the online game.

You haven't 'paid to see' anything... you have called because you think you have the best hand, if your opponent mucks just stack the chips with a smile.
Not a defender of the youth in anyway but if you think you have the best hand why are you calling. If you think you have the best hand let's raise it up n get the max value :)
[/quote

dont be silly Jason :D


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: RioRodent on August 05, 2012, 05:01:30 PM
I never see if they muck nor do I ask to see if i'm scooping the pot. It's perceived as bad etiquette in the scene. On Pokerstars the options there to view his hand. I must admit, I do find it quite bizarre how over time its evolved into the perception of bad etiquette even though I stick to it and dont ask to see... but..you've paid to see shouldn't you have the right to see?

Clearly a the view of a hoody wearing yoot, who thinks live poker has evolved from the online game.

You haven't 'paid to see' anything... you have called because you think you have the best hand, if your opponent mucks just stack the chips with a smile.
Not a defender of the youth in anyway but if you think you have the best hand why are you calling. If you think you have the best hand let's raise it up n get the max value :)

So you make a habit of calling when you think you have the worst hand??

'Think' was the operative word... if you're confident you have the best hand then go ahead and raise it up.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Poker_Monkey on August 05, 2012, 05:05:13 PM
Had this same quistion come up on my table at the gps on friday and the table was split over it, i missed the hand my self as i was somewere else at the time but come back to hear it all kicking off.

In the end most people were saying its not bad form to ask if you was in the hand but defo a no no if not in the hand.

If it was up to me and i would ask even if i didt want to know but i would only do it if it would let me get inside my opps head and let me play with him mind (if you get me).


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: smashedagain on August 05, 2012, 06:31:56 PM
I never see if they muck nor do I ask to see if i'm scooping the pot. It's perceived as bad etiquette in the scene. On Pokerstars the options there to view his hand. I must admit, I do find it quite bizarre how over time its evolved into the perception of bad etiquette even though I stick to it and dont ask to see... but..you've paid to see shouldn't you have the right to see?

Clearly a the view of a hoody wearing yoot, who thinks live poker has evolved from the online game.

You haven't 'paid to see' anything... you have called because you think you have the best hand, if your opponent mucks just stack the chips with a smile.
Not a defender of the youth in anyway but if you think you have the best hand why are you calling. If you think you have the best hand let's raise it up n get the max value :)

So you make a habit of calling when you think you have the worst hand??

'Think' was the operative word... if you're confident you have the best hand then go ahead and raise it up.
Called twice recently where I wanted to see my opponents hand on the river. They both mucked. When i was made to show the hand to claim the pot both guys claimed that they had better hands than me. They are two exceptions. 100% will fold if I think I have the worse hand.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: vegaslover on August 05, 2012, 06:52:42 PM
What annoys me is when I call and the other player waits to see if I turn over first so he can muck if losing. I just sit and wait until he either mucks or shows.

This ^^^^
Sooo many players try this


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: parker on August 05, 2012, 07:21:22 PM
Had this same quistion come up on my table at the gps on friday and the table was split over it, i missed the hand my self as i was somewere else at the time but come back to hear it all kicking off.

In the end most people were saying its not bad form to ask if you was in the hand but defo a no no if not in the hand.

If it was up to me and i would ask even if i didt want to know but i would only do it if it would let me get inside my opps head and let me play with him mind (if you get me).

you asked to see my hand when you had the nuts....


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Poker_Monkey on August 05, 2012, 07:25:02 PM
Had this same quistion come up on my table at the gps on friday and the table was split over it, i missed the hand my self as i was somewere else at the time but come back to hear it all kicking off.

In the end most people were saying its not bad form to ask if you was in the hand but defo a no no if not in the hand.

If it was up to me and i would ask even if i didt want to know but i would only do it if it would let me get inside my opps head and let me play with him mind (if you get me).

you asked to see my hand when you had the nuts....


Yer and .......


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: smashedagain on August 05, 2012, 07:27:12 PM
Had this same quistion come up on my table at the gps on friday and the table was split over it, i missed the hand my self as i was somewere else at the time but come back to hear it all kicking off.

In the end most people were saying its not bad form to ask if you was in the hand but defo a no no if not in the hand.

If it was up to me and i would ask even if i didt want to know but i would only do it if it would let me get inside my opps head and let me play with him mind (if you get me).

you asked to see my hand when you had the nuts....


Yer and .......
:) that's funny


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Honeybadger on August 05, 2012, 08:24:44 PM
100% will fold if I think I have the worse hand.

Quote
So you make a habit of calling when you think you have the worst hand??

'Think' was the operative word... if you're confident you have the best hand then go ahead and raise it up.

Hate being pedantic, but can't resist biting at this... you realise that you should OFTEN be calling when you think you likely have the worst hand, right?

You also realise that feeling confident your hand is best is NOT anywhere near sufficient reason to raise?


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: jgcblack on August 05, 2012, 08:51:02 PM
Its a game of incomplete information, when we can gain information to make profitable decisions later we should do so.

there are times and people when the information that they haven't hit 'that' board is enough.

But any time I am confused and they tell me I have the best hand I am seeing those cards.

if you want to muck your hand, you need to do it quickly.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: cambridgealex on August 05, 2012, 09:02:57 PM
If you call someone on the river and they say "you're good" or words to that effect, I think it's the height of bad etiquette to ask to see that persons hand. Show your hand, take the pot and move on.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Rockstar on August 05, 2012, 09:10:20 PM
If you call someone on the river and they say "you're good" or words to that effect, I think it's the height of bad etiquette to ask to see that persons hand. Show your hand, take the pot and move on.

This is the definitive answer,discussion over.



Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Honeybadger on August 05, 2012, 09:14:18 PM
Asking to see someone's hand in these situations is pretty much always one or more of the following; classless, rude, mean-spirited or vindictive. And of course it is also contrary to the spirit of the game. Most important, anyone who does this does not truly 'get' poker.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: smashedagain on August 05, 2012, 09:16:32 PM
If you call someone on the river and they say "you're good" or words to that effect, I think it's the height of bad etiquette to ask to see that persons hand. Show your hand, take the pot and move on.
What if he ain't mucked you show your hand and he says oh no I have you beat. Who is the Villan then?

Have to agree with Stu. Asking to see someone's hand is almost always needle


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: cambridgealex on August 05, 2012, 09:18:46 PM
Asking to see someone's hand in these situations is pretty much always one or more of the following; classless, rude, mean-spirited or vindictive. And of course it is also contrary to the spirit of the game. Most important, anyone who does this does not truly 'get' poker.

I know you're agreeing with me, so +1ing is sort of futile, but still, a massive +1.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: cambridgealex on August 05, 2012, 09:19:35 PM
If you call someone on the river and they say "you're good" or words to that effect, I think it's the height of bad etiquette to ask to see that persons hand. Show your hand, take the pot and move on.
What if he ain't mucked you show your hand and he says oh no I have you beat. Who is the Villan then?

Have to agree with Stu. Asking to see someone's hand is almost always needle

well the other guy obviously. Call him out for being a douche and take note for the future.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: George2Loose on August 05, 2012, 09:34:26 PM
I don't know what the big deal is tbh but convention suggests it's bad etiquette


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: titaniumbean on August 05, 2012, 09:36:34 PM
It's not like many live players have much etiquette or knowledge of the showdown rules.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Tal on August 05, 2012, 09:42:28 PM
Could count the times I've done it on one hand (no jokes, thanks!) in ten years of live poker and it was always needle purposes.

Usually it's when you have an alpha male at the table and they are being a penis so big that there are specialist, niche websites dedicated to them. Part of it is to see what they are calling with, granted but that's less than half of it.

Just a case of cutting them down a bit.

BTW if I am at your table and do it to you, this is now going to be reeeeeaaaaaaallly awkward lol


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: titaniumbean on August 05, 2012, 09:43:58 PM
Could count the times I've done it on one hand (no jokes, thanks!) in ten years of live poker and it was always needle purposes.

Usually it's when you have an alpha male at the table and they are being a penis so big that there are specialist, niche websites dedicated to them. Part of it is to see what they are calling with, granted but that's less than half of it.

Just a case of cutting them down a bit.

BTW if I am at your table and do it to you, this is now going to be reeeeeaaaaaaallly awkward lol


rotflmfao


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Karabiner on August 05, 2012, 09:44:21 PM
It's not like many live players have much etiquette or knowledge of the showdown rules.

Well yes exactly.

Too many showdowns turn into some kind of game of "chicken" where noone wants to show.

Reluctantly agreeing with seniorjuniorsenior really.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: cambridgealex on August 05, 2012, 09:47:10 PM
Tal = best poster on blonde atm


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: parker on August 05, 2012, 10:06:33 PM
Had this same quistion come up on my table at the gps on friday and the table was split over it, i missed the hand my self as i was somewere else at the time but come back to hear it all kicking off.

In the end most people were saying its not bad form to ask if you was in the hand but defo a no no if not in the hand.

If it was up to me and i would ask even if i didt want to know but i would only do it if it would let me get inside my opps head and let me play with him mind (if you get me).

you asked to see my hand when you had the nuts....


Yer and .......

If you call someone on the river and they say "you're good" or words to that effect, I think it's the height of bad etiquette to ask to see that persons hand. Show your hand, take the pot and move on.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: smashedagain on August 05, 2012, 10:07:16 PM
Could count the times I've done it on one hand (no jokes, thanks!) in ten years of live poker and it was always needle purposes.

Usually it's when you have an alpha male at the table and they are being a penis so big that there are specialist, niche websites dedicated to them. Part of it is to see what they are calling with, granted but that's less than half of it.

Just a case of cutting them down a bit.

BTW if I am at your table and do it to you, this is now going to be reeeeeaaaaaaallly awkward lol
Lol. Love your work. I am a big fan.  I generally hendonmob em and pass the phone round the table then ask em if they are so good should they not have more than one £15 cash.  But then again I am a confirmed douche :)


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Tal on August 05, 2012, 10:10:41 PM
Lol thanks, Alex. Too kind!

Jason, I did catch you doing that at dusk once when u were to my right. Really amused me when you said "That guy telling everyone how to play. He's only got one cash and that was in January"

I then suggested you look at mine. One cash. January.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: cambridgealex on August 05, 2012, 10:12:08 PM
Don't think Jason is so billy bigtime with his hendon mob these days


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: titaniumbean on August 05, 2012, 10:13:15 PM
Guys it's HerbertMob, not Hendon mob. god all you and you're typos.


eta to apostrophe tilt


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: GreekStein on August 05, 2012, 10:15:21 PM
At one of the DTD monte carlo's a fellow blonde bet the river with a pair in his hand that was like 4th pair and got hero'd by a guy holding a pocket pair one above. Blonde says, 'good call - you must win' or words to that effect. Guy turns over his 66 and blonde says 'oops so sorry' and snap turns his 77.
 
Since then, I decided I would always wait when someone says good call. You either show your hand or I see it hit the muck before I turn mine.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: smashedagain on August 05, 2012, 10:16:02 PM
Don't think Jason is so billy bigtime with his hendon mob these days
Word.

I think I do it every comp Tal :)


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: titaniumbean on August 05, 2012, 10:20:28 PM
At one of the DTD monte carlo's a fellow blonde bet the river with a pair in his hand that was like 4th pair and got hero'd by a guy holding a pocket pair one above. Blonde says, 'good call - you must win' or words to that effect. Guy turns over his 66 and blonde says 'oops so sorry' and snap turns his 77.
 
Since then, I decided I would always wait when someone says good call. You either show your hand or I see it hit the muck before I turn mine.

I had this in the WSOP, the gentleman just had TOP PAIR. fking twats.

Kick in the nuts/ovaries should be introduced as a punishment imo.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: cambridgealex on August 05, 2012, 10:21:16 PM
At one of the DTD monte carlo's a fellow blonde bet the river with a pair in his hand that was like 4th pair and got hero'd by a guy holding a pocket pair one above. Blonde says, 'good call - you must win' or words to that effect. Guy turns over his 66 and blonde says 'oops so sorry' and snap turns his 77.
 
Since then, I decided I would always wait when someone says good call. You either show your hand or I see it hit the muck before I turn mine.

Don't think that's the lesson I'd learn from that.  There's no harm done in that situation, no malice or needling intended. Just one of those things that happens pretty rarely, not worth being a douche cos  99% of the time that "good call" means your hand is good.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: SuuPRlim on August 05, 2012, 10:26:52 PM
if someone wants to see my hand then abso fine I'll just show them it cos 99% of the time if someone is asking then they aren't going to be advanced enough to properly process the information they'll get.

If anything me knowing that they have this info and having a pretty good idea they'll mis-use it is more of a disadvantage to them than an advantage so if they wanna do that to themselves they are more than welcome.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: titaniumbean on August 05, 2012, 10:27:16 PM
At one of the DTD monte carlo's a fellow blonde bet the river with a pair in his hand that was like 4th pair and got hero'd by a guy holding a pocket pair one above. Blonde says, 'good call - you must win' or words to that effect. Guy turns over his 66 and blonde says 'oops so sorry' and snap turns his 77.
 
Since then, I decided I would always wait when someone says good call. You either show your hand or I see it hit the muck before I turn mine.

Don't think that's the lesson I'd learn from that.  There's no harm done in that situation, no malice or needling intended. Just one of those things that happens pretty rarely, not worth being a douche cos  99% of the time that "good call" means your hand is good.


41.733665% of statistical figures are made up.


Would bet my net that the number is closer to 60%, they just have no clue.

So often they randomly spaz lead the river you call and they then realise that their hand plays awfully vs your range to call so they say 'good call'. But obv you called because they were bluffing and cant beat the PAIR they hold.


morons.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: GreekStein on August 05, 2012, 10:30:58 PM
At one of the DTD monte carlo's a fellow blonde bet the river with a pair in his hand that was like 4th pair and got hero'd by a guy holding a pocket pair one above. Blonde says, 'good call - you must win' or words to that effect. Guy turns over his 66 and blonde says 'oops so sorry' and snap turns his 77.
 
Since then, I decided I would always wait when someone says good call. You either show your hand or I see it hit the muck before I turn mine.

Don't think that's the lesson I'd learn from that.  There's no harm done in that situation, no malice or needling intended. Just one of those things that happens pretty rarely, not worth being a douche cos  99% of the time that "good call" means your hand is good.


41.733665% of statistical figures are made up.


Would bet my net that the number is closer to 60%, they just have no clue.

So often they randomly spaz lead the river you call and they then realise that their hand plays awfully vs your range to call so they say 'good call'. But obv you called because they were bluffing and cant beat the PAIR they hold.


morons.

wp lads. both giving %'s that gotta be so far off what it actually is.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: titaniumbean on August 05, 2012, 10:34:45 PM
At one of the DTD monte carlo's a fellow blonde bet the river with a pair in his hand that was like 4th pair and got hero'd by a guy holding a pocket pair one above. Blonde says, 'good call - you must win' or words to that effect. Guy turns over his 66 and blonde says 'oops so sorry' and snap turns his 77.
 
Since then, I decided I would always wait when someone says good call. You either show your hand or I see it hit the muck before I turn mine.

Don't think that's the lesson I'd learn from that.  There's no harm done in that situation, no malice or needling intended. Just one of those things that happens pretty rarely, not worth being a douche cos  99% of the time that "good call" means your hand is good.


41.733665% of statistical figures are made up.


Would bet my net that the number is closer to 60%, they just have no clue.

So often they randomly spaz lead the river you call and they then realise that their hand plays awfully vs your range to call so they say 'good call'. But obv you called because they were bluffing and cant beat the PAIR they hold.


morons.

wp lads. both giving %'s that gotta be so far off what it actually is.

TY

reread first line of ma post :)up

xx


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: rfgqqabc on August 05, 2012, 10:55:07 PM
if someone wants to see my hand then abso fine I'll just show them it cos 99% of the time if someone is asking then they aren't going to be advanced enough to properly process the information they'll get.

If anything me knowing that they have this info and having a pretty good idea they'll mis-use it is more of a disadvantage to them than an advantage so if they wanna do that to themselves they are more than welcome.

I've had this happen to me 5/6 times in the past. It has been done by;

1/2 Former 1k NL grinder, who whilst not A+ in my opinion, is obviously pretty dam good and has a significant advantage asking to see my hands when i will never see his. He even did this after I had said what i had before i called his all in.
3/4/5; Random retard asking to see, tilting his nuts off
6; Guy who runs regular 2/5 5/10 gbp Home Games in Essex, complete fish imo, but other friends of mine rated him, so probably gained something.


7; All in pre with a mate, when action went, raise/flat/ i flat 66/ flat/ best mate 3bs/ OR fold/ fold/ I jam/ he snaps with Q2s and fish asks to see our hands. Never felt so sketchy in my life, but how the hell do i explain that I know that he knows that i know that this guy was folding to the 3b 100% of the time. Just brutal.

In general it is the most misapplied rule in every casino. I kicked up enough of a fuss to have it used 5x more sparingly, although regulars still spout off about using it for info, which is super tilting.

edit: happened like 5/6 times @ showdown in HU pot and once all in pre in situation 7.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Junior Senior on August 05, 2012, 11:39:14 PM
So annoying when you call a river bet, opponent mucks so you dont get to see but you have to show your hand to claim the pot?,!

Surely if they muck then you should be able to too. Yes i know the collusion arguments and chip passing possibilities etc. but meh whatever.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Cf on August 05, 2012, 11:47:05 PM
If I get called then I'll show.

If I call then I wait for opp to show/fold. No showing until their hand is confirmed mucked/dead/shown.

If I show and have a winner I'll never ask to see opponents cards.

Simple.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: jgcblack on August 06, 2012, 03:14:39 AM
If I get called then I'll show.

If I call then I wait for opp to show/fold. No showing until their hand is confirmed mucked/dead/shown.
If I show and have a winner I'll never ask to see opponents cards.

Simple.

Whenever I've done this, I get told things like....
"but I told you I had A high, why did you slowroll me with your 2nd pair?"
and
"you what mate? I've told you what I've got just show your hand first......."


Then im made out to be a bad guy for waiting to let them do whatever they want with their hand, I've even said "its up to you, muck or show, I don't mind..."

And they think im playing mind games.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: smashedagain on August 06, 2012, 03:37:48 AM
If I get called then I'll show.

If I call then I wait for opp to show/fold. No showing until their hand is confirmed mucked/dead/shown.
If I show and have a winner I'll never ask to see opponents cards.

Simple.

Whenever I've done this, I get told things like....
"but I told you I had A high, why did you slowroll me with your 2nd pair?"
and
"you what mate? I've told you what I've got just show your hand first......."


Then im made out to be a bad guy for waiting to let them do whatever they want with their hand, I've even said "its up to you, muck or show, I don't mind..."

And they think im playing mind games.

Even at stupid o'clock you still make me smile :)


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: LonOhRay on August 06, 2012, 03:57:41 AM
In the bad form camp


How about calling all ins on rivers with effective nuts?

I 100% insta-table my hand after calling


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: skolsuper on August 06, 2012, 10:05:49 AM
If I get called then I'll show.

If I call then I wait for opp to show/fold. No showing until their hand is confirmed mucked/dead/shown.

If I show and have a winner I'll never ask to see opponents cards.

Simple.

Everyone should act like this.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: SuuPRlim on August 06, 2012, 01:23:02 PM
If I get called then I'll show.

If I call then I wait for opp to show/fold. No showing until their hand is confirmed mucked/dead/shown.

If I show and have a winner I'll never ask to see opponents cards.

Simple.

Everyone should act like this.

+1


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: TL900 on August 06, 2012, 03:34:00 PM
tilts me pretty hard when people ask to see my hand, especially when its a guy who probably won't even use that information profitably in any way against me. Its just rude imo


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: smashedagain on August 06, 2012, 03:58:29 PM
tilts me pretty hard when people ask to see my hand, especially when its a guy who probably won't even use that information profitably in any way against me. Its just rude imo
Did I ask to see your hand before. But definatly all of the above will have been correct.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: SuuPRlim on August 06, 2012, 04:25:43 PM
tilts me pretty hard when people ask to see my hand, especially when its a guy who probably won't even use that information profitably in any way against me. Its just rude imo

Just snap show them and remember to level them next time.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: TL900 on August 06, 2012, 04:39:45 PM
tilts me pretty hard when people ask to see my hand, especially when its a guy who probably won't even use that information profitably in any way against me. Its just rude imo
Did I ask to see your hand before. But definatly all of the above will have been correct.

I don't remember it if you did sir.


Also, the most annoying thing is when you call otr and people show you a winning hand and you say 'that's good' then they ask to see your losing hand and what you called with. Could rant all day about this sorta stuff. One of my pet peeves in poker


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: david3103 on August 06, 2012, 05:01:23 PM
if someone wants to see my hand then abso fine I'll just show them it cos 99% of the time if someone is asking then they aren't going to be advanced enough to properly process the information they'll get.

If anything me knowing that they have this info and having a pretty good idea they'll mis-use it is more of a disadvantage to them than an advantage so if they wanna do that to themselves they are more than welcome.

I've had this happen to me 5/6 times in the past. It has been done by;

1/2 Former 1k NL grinder, who whilst not A+ in my opinion, is obviously pretty dam good and has a significant advantage asking to see my hands when i will never see his. He even did this after I had said what i had before i called his all in.
3/4/5; Random retard asking to see, tilting his nuts off
6; Guy who runs regular 2/5 5/10 gbp Home Games in Essex, complete fish imo, but other friends of mine rated him, so probably gained something.


7; All in pre with a mate, when action went, raise/flat/ i flat 66/ flat/ best mate 3bs/ OR fold/ fold/ I jam/ he snaps with Q2s and fish asks to see our hands. Never felt so sketchy in my life, but how the hell do i explain that I know that he knows that i know that this guy was folding to the 3b 100% of the time. Just brutal.

In general it is the most misapplied rule in every casino. I kicked up enough of a fuss to have it used 5x more sparingly, although regulars still spout off about using it for info, which is super tilting.

edit: happened like 5/6 times @ showdown in HU pot and once all in pre in situation 7.

I think all hands should be tabled when you're all in whether it's cash or tournament...
;-)


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: cambridgealex on August 06, 2012, 05:06:55 PM
tilts me pretty hard when people ask to see my hand, especially when its a guy who probably won't even use that information profitably in any way against me. Its just rude imo
Did I ask to see your hand before. But definatly all of the above will have been correct.

I don't remember it if you did sir.


Also, the most annoying thing is when you call otr and people show you a winning hand and you say 'that's good' then they ask to see your losing hand and what you called with. Could rant all day about this sorta stuff. One of my pet peeves in poker

Oh god that's the worst.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: shedboymuff on August 06, 2012, 05:12:24 PM
happened to me on Fri night was fuking raging..


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: robbiebox on August 06, 2012, 06:43:06 PM
If I get called then I'll show.

If I call then I wait for opp to show/fold. No showing until their hand is confirmed mucked/dead/shown.
If I show and have a winner I'll never ask to see opponents cards.

Simple.

Whenever I've done this, I get told things like....
"but I told you I had A high, why did you slowroll me with your 2nd pair?"
and
"you what mate? I've told you what I've got just show your hand first......."


Then im made out to be a bad guy for waiting to let them do whatever they want with their hand, I've even said "its up to you, muck or show, I don't mind..."

And they think im playing mind games.


Totally agree with this.

Clearly remember at Blackpool of being accused of slow rolling when I waited for him to turn his cards after he said you win, I just replied "it wasn't me slow -rolling I turned my cards over straight away when it was my turn, it was you slowrolling". He didnt get it and it got a little bit ugly from him. I couldnt care less to be honest as I felt I was spot on.

Had this at Stoke yesterday and the guy says "only got a Q" and shows just the Q,  I feel obliged to turn over my pair to win as he was a decent guy, but really wanted to see what he had gone to the river with ion that hand. Would anybody wait and ask to see the other card ???


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: robbiebox on August 06, 2012, 06:45:08 PM
So annoying when you call a river bet, opponent mucks so you dont get to see but you have to show your hand to claim the pot?,!

Surely if they muck then you should be able to too. Yes i know the collusion arguments and chip passing possibilities etc. but meh whatever.

Totally agree with this also. Rule should be changed that you dont have to show if oppo mucks.

I might just muck my cards next time in this position. What would the dealer do ? Where would the chips go ? Aslast man standing Im sure they would have to give them to me.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: dreenie on August 06, 2012, 06:48:46 PM
if someone wants to see my hand then abso fine I'll just show them it cos 99% of the time if someone is asking then they aren't going to be advanced enough to properly process the information they'll get.

If anything me knowing that they have this info and having a pretty good idea they'll mis-use it is more of a disadvantage to them than an advantage so if they wanna do that to themselves they are more than welcome.

Your just too good Lildave


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Tal on August 06, 2012, 06:48:50 PM
So annoying when you call a river bet, opponent mucks so you dont get to see but you have to show your hand to claim the pot?,!

Surely if they muck then you should be able to too. Yes i know the collusion arguments and chip passing possibilities etc. but meh whatever.

Totally agree with this also. Rule should be changed that you dont have to show if oppo mucks.

I might just muck my cards next time in this position. What would the dealer do ? Where would the chips go ? Aslast man standing Im sure they would have to give them to me.


If both players are allowed not to show you end up with chip passing allegations. That's the trouble


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Junior Senior on August 06, 2012, 06:55:10 PM
So annoying when you call a river bet, opponent mucks so you dont get to see but you have to show your hand to claim the pot?,!

Surely if they muck then you should be able to too. Yes i know the collusion arguments and chip passing possibilities etc. but meh whatever.

Totally agree with this also. Rule should be changed that you dont have to show if oppo mucks.

I might just muck my cards next time in this position. What would the dealer do ? Where would the chips go ? Aslast man standing Im sure they would have to give them to me.



Paging Dik9 and CF......


Surely chips goes to person who mucked last


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Cf on August 06, 2012, 07:32:40 PM
Yeah, of course they do.

In fact, quite a few rule sets allow you to not show. Don't pokerstars/wsop work that way?


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: dik9 on August 06, 2012, 07:39:51 PM
Sorry, at work at the moment so will have to be brief.

It depends what rules you use.

Genting as a group should be using TDA rules, which now state;

13: Contested Showdown / Playing the Board
All hole cards must be shown to win a contested showdown even if playing the board.

14: Uncontested Showdown
In a non all-in showdown, when all opponent(s) cards have been mucked without being
revealed, the last live hand wins
. Opponents who muck at showdown without revealing their
hands also lose the right to ask to see the winning hand.

15: Asking to See a Hand
Except where house policy provides an express right to see a hand, asking to see a hand is
a privilege granted at TD’s discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid
hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused.

Therefore if someone open folds on the river to me, there is no way I am showing or expect anyone to show unless collusion is suspected.
(with regards to DTD's ruling, I thought they used TDA rules too???)



Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: dik9 on August 06, 2012, 08:24:25 PM
Caro and Cookes rule explains it more clearly.

Years ago instead of "call" it was usual for the player to say "I'll see you", meaning calling to see the hand, the game has evolved since however.

9.08 REQUESTS TO SEE A CALLED HAND.

Players shall not be entitled to see a called hand except in cases where there is a reasonable suspicion of collusion, in which case the floorperson shall be called over for examination of the called hand. This is contrary to the traditional rule. However the traditional rule, which was designed to prevent collusion, has not served its original purpose. Asking to see called hands slows down the game, causes resentment and impedes action. The right to see a called hand is limited to situations where a floorperson is present for the request. The purpose of this rule is to protect against collusion, not to satisfy a player’s curiosity or get a read on a player’s style of play, or worst of all, to intentionally irritate a player. Abuse of this rule is very bad for poker as it kills action and causes resentment. There is no right to see a called losing hand under any circumstances in head’s up play.
The order of showdown shall be followed, if a player reveals a winning hand outside of the order of showdown any right to request a hand to be shown shall be forfeited.



Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Tal on August 06, 2012, 08:28:49 PM
That is fascinating. Thanks for that


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: tikay on August 06, 2012, 08:31:45 PM
Excellent explanation by RW.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Junior Senior on August 06, 2012, 09:15:29 PM
Thank you Richard. Sure am gonna show my hand next time my opponent mucks without showing. Presume that's ok in cash games too?


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: dik9 on August 06, 2012, 10:01:59 PM
More so in cash, but check your venues rules before claiming the high ground :)


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: tight4better on August 07, 2012, 03:49:54 PM
tilts me pretty hard when people ask to see my hand, especially when its a guy who probably won't even use that information profitably in any way against me. Its just rude imo
Did I ask to see your hand before. But definatly all of the above will have been correct.

I don't remember it if you did sir.


Also, the most annoying thing is when you call otr and people show you a winning hand and you say 'that's good' then they ask to see your losing hand and what you called with. Could rant all day about this sorta stuff. One of my pet peeves in poker

This is now a rule at Genting casino's where a player can ask to see the losing hand and it will be turned over (ref. Birmingham). THE MOST tilting rule ever imposed.

Personally I think it's terrible form and just do it back out of spite to anyone I see doing it. Completely ruins the etiquette of the game, there's a video on YouTube of bobby belande doing it to Hellmuth, massive argument ensues and PH is forced to show.

Ive also been victim of the "you got it" and still end up losing, however this hasn't swayed my opinion at all, and in all honesty this doesn't happen except in games where people take 3 hours to turn over the nuts at showdown when it's obvious you're making a hero call.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: dik9 on August 07, 2012, 08:14:56 PM
tilts me pretty hard when people ask to see my hand, especially when its a guy who probably won't even use that information profitably in any way against me. Its just rude imo
Did I ask to see your hand before. But definatly all of the above will have been correct.

I don't remember it if you did sir.


Also, the most annoying thing is when you call otr and people show you a winning hand and you say 'that's good' then they ask to see your losing hand and what you called with. Could rant all day about this sorta stuff. One of my pet peeves in poker

This is now a rule at Genting casino's where a player can ask to see the losing hand and it will be turned over (ref. Birmingham). THE MOST tilting rule ever imposed.


It certainly shouldn't be??? All gentings should now sing off the same sheet. If you are referring to Star City then a new cardroom manager should be winging his way to you within a couple of weeks


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: tight4better on August 07, 2012, 09:08:28 PM
tilts me pretty hard when people ask to see my hand, especially when its a guy who probably won't even use that information profitably in any way against me. Its just rude imo
Did I ask to see your hand before. But definatly all of the above will have been correct.

I don't remember it if you did sir.


Also, the most annoying thing is when you call otr and people show you a winning hand and you say 'that's good' then they ask to see your losing hand and what you called with. Could rant all day about this sorta stuff. One of my pet peeves in poker

This is now a rule at Genting casino's where a player can ask to see the losing hand and it will be turned over (ref. Birmingham). THE MOST tilting rule ever imposed.


It certainly shouldn't be??? All gentings should now sing off the same sheet. If you are referring to Star City then a new cardroom manager should be winging his way to you within a couple of weeks

Yeah, happened twice to me at star city, in a tournament. They tried doing it on cash too but I'd made sure my hand was firmly in the muck. It's a joke that cardroom managers allow this tbh.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: dik9 on August 07, 2012, 09:31:20 PM
To be fair, the person running Star City is just temporary at the moment, I guarantee things will improve within the month!


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: The Squid on August 08, 2012, 01:05:59 AM

Where I began playing in pubs and snooker-halls it was deemed the grossest violation of etiquette to ask to see a players hand once they gave you an indication that you were 'good.' As a result I always used to fast-roll people. I began earning my living by playing cash I always thought this kind of 'gentleman's understanding' should be the basis for my actions at the table as it encourages people to bluff and doesn't embarrass people who play a hand badly. However, so many people took angles against me in cash games and particularly intournaments that it's begun to ware a bit thin and i've slightly changed my stance. Now i'll only fast-roll in cash games with fish at the table and occasionally with friends.

Tournament poker is now played in a pretty serious and competitive atmosphere, even by recreational players, and there should be some common understanding of what the protocol is for showing down hands  and everyone should act upon this accordingly. Players still seem really reluctant to table there hands. If you're playing with other competent players in a tournament then umming and aaaing and expecting an opponent to show first when you've bluffed is bad etiquette and makes you look silly. However, if a fish mucks and really doesn't want to show there hand then it's also unnecessary to be calling for rulings and having dealers digging around in the muck.

One of the best things about the WSOP this year was there was a very clear protocol for who showed on the river. The way the protocol operates is far from perfect because it leads to situations where value-betting what you are pretty sure is the best hand is less +EV than checking back making your opponent show first and gaining information. However, at least there was a clearly defined etiquette that the majority of people adhered too. Currently in the UK it varies too much in place to place and this leads to confusion.

FWIW I dont think the current system used by Stars where if a player mucks the winner doesnt have to show is the solution. It leads to a lot of stand-offs on the river, forces fish to show there bluffs too often and increases the boredom of both pros and recreational players who dont get to see hands showndown.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: PizzicatoXev on August 08, 2012, 07:25:39 AM
One situation that really tilts me is when I have called a bet on the river and the opponent shows half the table his cards but then refuses to show me his hand or claim/concede the pot...

Situations like that I personally think its fine to insist he shows his cards...


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: Junior Senior on August 08, 2012, 08:27:38 AM
One situation that really tilts me is when I have called a bet on the river and the opponent shows half the table his cards but then refuses to show me his hand or claim/concede the pot...

Situations like that I personally think its fine to insist he shows his cards...

Show one, show all. The dealer should be managing that one and taking control.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: smashedagain on August 08, 2012, 09:05:36 AM
To be fair, the person running Star City is just temporary at the moment, I guarantee things will improve within the month!
Is that a subtle I'm off to Star City post.


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: dik9 on August 08, 2012, 12:07:46 PM
To be fair, the person running Star City is just temporary at the moment, I guarantee things will improve within the month!
Is that a subtle I'm off to Star City post.

Nope, but I know a man that is :)


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: robbiebox on August 08, 2012, 05:46:20 PM

One of the best things about the WSOP this year was there was a very clear protocol for who showed on the river. The way the protocol operates is far from perfect because it leads to situations where value-betting what you are pretty sure is the best hand is less +EV than checking back making your opponent show first and gaining information. However, at least there was a clearly defined etiquette that the majority of people adhered too. Currently in the UK it varies too much in place to place and this leads to confusion.


What was the protocol ?


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: PizzicatoXev on August 08, 2012, 05:54:40 PM

Show one, show all. The dealer should be managing that one and taking control.

Should but rarely do...


Title: Re: Asking to see a players hand, is it bad form??
Post by: david3103 on August 08, 2012, 06:30:10 PM
Recent tourney at Gentings Newcastle, self-deal bleurgh, two players all in on turn,  the dealer was the caller and snap turned his hand over showing one pair on a very wet board.
Aggressor said "you're good at the moment" but kept his cards face down and mucked on the river.

As a visiting player it didn't seem worth arguing about.