blonde poker forum

Thoughts?

Some guys are mad keen to shake hands after either busting you or having been busted. I can't say I have really much cared for it either way. I will almost always shake hands with someone if they offer but am kind of just not bothered either way. Do I need to improve my etiquette or find some other question to post when I am bored?

Just wanted to canvass opinions

Not bothered either way, will always shake someones hand if they offer it and I don't have big reason not to. Have occasionally offered my hand if I like/ got on with the person who bust me.

They can all sod off, i want to stand up, say 'well played and good luck to everyone' and then go. It feels like a rub for the person who knocked you out to shake your hand. Would never refuse it though.

Some guy i played a big cash hand with was the perfect example, i'd been smashing up all night, we got in a 3k pot (big for me) and i got him to stick the lot in on hte turn with 2 outs, he jumps about screaming and fist pumping when he hits to stack me and then comes over for a hand shake, the very last thing in the world i wanted to do at that moment was shake the guys hand.

I think it's more appropriate when deep, when a guy takes me out in level 3 and goes to shake my hand I'm like err ok then.

Thought the youth of today would be more fist pumpers?

No?! Defo the other way around. We just GIQ.

Yes, I would say how deep I get in a tourney and my inclination to shake my defeaters hand has a definite positive correlation. Some guys almost seem to think its the done thing for each bust out.  I also think when you know the person well and it's been a long tough genuinely enjoyable battle I am more likely to 'get' the handshake thing.

Agree

If I bust someone and they want to shake my hand fair enough.

If they bust me, they can GTFO.

All seems a bit pointless tbh.

I see poker as a challenge or even a battle ;starwars;. So would you shake hands with the guy who struck you down with his sword...... erm no.
Or i just handed £100 to the bookie for a bet, and I lost.... I better go and shake his hand for taking my money ;joestrummer;. all in all i would never offer my hand out to someone who i just knocked out, I think its an insult to them really. But if i was presented with a hand to shake then i would do it out of politeness of course.

Can't say I remember having heard poker called a gentleman's game, but many other sports it's polite to shake the hand of your opponent win or lose. Can't say this should apply to cash games where there' no level playing field, but in tournament poker why not. Even had players wanting to shake my hand as a dealer when I'd dealt a horrid beat, it's just a recognised way of saying no hard feelings, it is after all a game like many others, and there's no reason to be a bad loser, a friendly handshake doe no harm, and that kind of atmosphere would I think make it more appealing to outsiders to come and play, adding value, and how can anyone not like that?

I feel worse if someone offers to shake my hand after they have busted me out, especially if i was ahead, never refuse it though.

Pretty much what Alex said. If its early on, then whats the point. However, if iv got really chatty with somebody, I will defo shake hands with them if they bust me. Guess thats just me being friendly though

 I SAY F O

IS IT

I don't think I've ever offered my hand to someone I bust unless I was 100% sure it would be a reciprocal matey thing.

I don't like people who bust me offering me some kinda obligatory handshake.

I will occasionally offer my hand to someone who busts me if I think they are brill at poker and have regularly outplayed me - I suppose I just want to offer a hearty 'well done, you're good, good luck' but then go further with the handshake. I might just go with words in future

I like to shake hands, win or lose. It just seems like a friendly and civilised thing to do.

I hate it personally.

Same here mr Red dog

Final table fine, otherwise I'd rather just be left to skulk away......

Me too.

Will do it if offered, feels a bit weird though, happy to just drag the pot and keep focused.

Unless it's a good friend, then will needle etc ;D

It's incredible how vastly different people perceive the gesture of shaking hands.

For my own part, I think it's simply a gentlemanly gesture. I suppose that's cultural change for you. What was once symbolic of friendship and no hard feelings' is now so rare that people are offended by it.

Great post, George.

Funny old world, eh?

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Very good. Agree totally

Not really George, if anything the cultural change is in the other direction. Brits now insincerely shake hands, kiss, hug more than they ever have. Another thing to dislike the EU for

When you've knocked someone out, what do you hope to achieve by shaking the hand of the guy you just busted?

Why do you need to achieve anything?

It's weird cos I like hand shakes in general... Greeting a mate, work colleague and after a round of golf but just hate it in this poker bust out situation from guys I don't know in insignificant stages of bowl comps that I have no rapport with and who have just bust me. However the well brought up human nature in me just has to shake the hand when offered.

I actually make it a policy never to offer to shake anyone's hand if I bust them or they bust me so just wanted to line check that I wasnt being thought of as rude

"Nice to meet you. It has been a pleasure."

It's all personal opinion, I suppose.

People these days are, for the most part, seem far less respectful of one another than is seen in previous generations. I certainly don't agree that it has gone the other way. Certainly my generation, on the whole, is something to despair of.

It's the same, as far as I am concerned, as when I play five a side football. Even if I've just trounced the opposing team, we still shake hands at the end. It's nothing more or less than common courtesy and good sportsmanship.

It's ridiculous that people construe it as insulting. Sure, someone might be exulted and excited when they win. Ever seen a Tennis grandslam final? They still shake hands once the euphoric celebration has transpired. Why? Mostly because most other sportsmen aren't so determined to find insult in everything.

That's the problem with poker, though. It's incredibly unwelcoming, on the whole.

Its not something I normally do unless circumstances dictate otherwise.
As it happens I did this on Sat night at DTD when I knocked out an older gent when a weak turn bet allowed me to river a flush. I think I did it out of sympathy.

When I get knocked out of a tournament, I just want to get out of the casino as quickly as possible.

I don't want to wait around to see if the guy who just crushed my dreams wants to shake my hand.

If I knocked out someone, sure if he wants to shake hands, of course I'll do it. But please don't be offended or think I'm rude because I won't shake your hand when you knock me out.

It really really pisses me off when a player acts like a dick at the table while playing, then wants to shake my hand after knocking me out.

Then you have a case for refusing, based on their actions.

I interpreted the question as, "Would I shake hands if I got busted?" as opposed to, "Do I shake hands with the table captain?"

Again. Courses for horses, I suppose.

What about the bloke at the table who you've had some good banter with, or had some good poker battles with during the comp, or a player who seems a decent sort, played well and was on the wrong end of a cooler (or the right end of a cooler to knock you out, which he does without acting like a dick)?

Blimey!

Would you really agree to shake my hand if you knocked me out, but refuse if I knocked you out?

I would be disappointed in my 11 year old grandson if he behaved like that.  

I've seen some really hard men knock seven bells out of each other and shake hands afterwards.

Everyone is obv entitled to their own opinion on the handshake scenario i usually offer a handshake when getting knocked out on final table, maybe other times maybe not just depend on individual situation. to me it just seems a decent thing to do. Manners maketh the man and all that. 
I can remember watching a programme about some world war two vetrans that had been in dogfights together , met up and shook hands years later,Its only a fking game wind yer necks in.
 

In my experience, people like that don't offer to shake your hand, they understand you just want to get out of the place as quickly as possible.

I don't think I've ever refused to shake someone's hand.

I think from my body language it's obvious I have no wish to communicate after I've been knocked out.

If I'm at the bar afterwards, sure I'll shake anyone's hand.

Go to shake their hand then pull it up to your nose and leave them hanging, two can play that game.

How do you feel if someone says "sorry" if they outdraw you?

I think that is the height of bad manners.

I've always taken the view that winners should get it quietly.

If I win a big pot and knock someone out I take the pot and let the loser decide what thy want to do. If they want to talk, I'll talk. If they want to gtfo, I'll just let them do that. If they want to shake hands I will of course.

I think it's just polite to let the loser do what they want.

U think its the height of bad manners when sum1 says sorry?

They aren't really sorry, are they?

So why say it?

Waste of breath that can only piss off the loser even more.

Sorry does tilt people because its disingenuous, you don't mean it. Fair better to just say unlucky mate if your going to say anything at all.

lol u bas - you said sorry to me!

Why say anything at all?

Just stack your chips, and let the loser decide if he wants to talk.

Get it quietly.

Yeah but some people have to open their gobs, they just can't help it (I know I used to), just giving them the lesser of 2 evils if they have to.

If you have to speak:

Unlucky >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sorry

lol Camel you def said sorry to me when you crippled me in Amsterdam - maybe it was due to the uncomfortable minute it took me to lose my remaining 1.5 antes.....

If it was in Amsterdam I cannot be held responsible for anything I say or do :)

(How long ago was this? If I was inexperienced I might have said it, certainly can't believe I've said it in the last 10 years)

2005 or 2006 in one of the side events?  I had AJ on the button you had A5 in the BB.  The board was all raggy you picked up a straight draw on the turn and hit your 5 on the river.







errrrr I only vaguely remember the details

The only time I ever remember playing against you was in Copenhagen I think.

Don't remember this hand for sure. But i was definitely out of order if I apologised without it being part of a conversation.

Maybe you said something like "How can you call there with Ace five?"

"I'm just a bad player, I'm sorry".

I've definitely always been one for trying to get away as quick as possible. I'm sure I must have come across as rude by doing this at times but in that 30 seconds or so as you bust it's just so painful. I've tried to get better at it but it's tough

Have had a couple of Hevad Kahn's who've wanted to shake my hand after they've regained their composure and have declined but apart from that I'll accept if they want it but very rarely (almost never) offer it - a simple good luck all does the job for me

At the GPS final the other week, everyone seemed to want to shake hands when I busted. I went with it but wanted to get away (you know that most are celebrating on the inside when someone busts so there is something disingenuous about it which is why I prefer not to). I remember the guys at the other end of the table were trying to come round to shake hands too and it was all taking a bit too long so I just acknowledged them and said good luck. I did make sure I went back later to shake their hand just in case they thought I was rude. Prefer to lose (and hopefully win sometimes) as quietly as possible

Nah, I don't like the shaking of hands much either. I also don't like it when people tell you to put their chips to good use.

I've had quite a few instances where people have won HUGE pots of me in cash games and offered the handshake afterwards.

I think it's up to the person who has been knocked out to offer to shake hands if he wishes as a way of saying fair dues, no hard feelings, etc. The one who knocked him out can hardly state 'no hard feelings' as he has won the other person's chips. One guy who I play with regularly makes a habit of shoving his hand into your face more-or-less demanding a handshake as soon as the river is dealt in his favour, which I find extremely rude. I haven't refused him so far, but I am going to have a word with him about doing it.

I saw a handshake refused a while ago in the Gunwharf Grosvenor. With 5 of us left on the FT, one guy got busted and another one, who wasn't in the hand, was clapping and cheering and, in almost the same breath, turned to the bustee and said "unlucky mate" and held out his hand, to be told "I'm not shaking your hand - you just cheered cos I was knocked out", which I thought was fair enough.

You're handling the same chips and cards, so your hands are already as dirty as those disgusting players who don't wash their hands, which is why I use a knife and fork to eat a sandwich when I'm playing poker.

only time you should ever shake somebodies hand is if you beat them HU and the tournament is over, or if you have a heated argument on the table and realise you have both gone too far.

imo.

I use my handshake like the kiss of death, when i offer it i want the person dead.

Ah! Now this is an interesting concept. Would you care to elaborate?

When did you last use it and why?

What happened?

Handshakes are pretty meh. When I bust I say "gl everyone" and have a few extra words with mates/regs. If I shake the persons hand who busts me it is only because I have something nasty on my hands :)

This.

Plus if you have done a 3 or 4 way deal too.

I just can't agree with the notion that there has to be a special set of circumstances in order to shake hands.



(http://australiansforpalestine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/swimming-against-the-tide.jpg)

You & me are SO out of touch with the way things are these days Tom.

To me, a handshake says & does SO many things. We meet someone for the first time, we shake hands, footballers, & most sportsmen, do it before a game, & often after it, too, we say "bye" to many by a ritual handshake, it is a universal but unspoken language to those that subscribe to it.

And a 2 or 3 second handshake says more - a lot more - than a whole bunch of words.

A limp handshake with no eye contact says one thing, a firm handshake, with a bit of linger, & good eye contact, says something completely different.

I'm afraid I am inclined to judge books by covers rather more than I should. I met a guy in Vegas this year, never met him before, & we had one of these "telling" handshakes. And we both noticed it immediately. I was pretty busy at the time, & needed to get on with my work, but the handshake explained everything, & we were cool. 

Rather a shame that these unspoken nuances, & behavioural tics, seem to count for less & less these days.

It had truly never occurred to me that when I shake a players hand after one of us busts the other, it could be construed as an insult. I don't always do it, but I do more often that not, & if I don't shake hands, I do the tactile thing somehow. Body language is the greatest thing. Or I thought it was. I often shake hands with players at my table before play starts, too, whyever not?

I was at DTD on Friday, there were 100 poker players there, & I bet I shook hands with 30 or 40 of them before play began. Peeps come up to me, or me to them, outstretched hand. What are we supposed to do, say "bugger off, I'm trying to focus"?

It's what people do, we don't need a reason, it's "hi mate, hope all is good". There is a reason when we DONT shake hands though......

I keep saying it, but I understand life, & people, less & less.

5 pages on handshakes? Quality.

Gentlemanly gesture, but being gentlemanly includes acting in a way which doesn't make others feel awkward. Therefore, I always judge the villain's reaction. If s/he throws the chair over, punches the dealer and tells the valet where to put her latte, I'll prob GIQ.

If it's amicable and we have a short period of eye contact post-river, I'll very often offer my hand.

Still a game to me. I've travelled to get there, spent my hard-earned cash and am sure as sugar going to do what I can to have fun. That often involves leaving as few people wanting me dead as possible. I want people to think I'm a nice guy and shaking hands reinforces the "does it really matter?" mentality.

I don't take offence if someone doesn't want to - and I won't always offer if it's a little awkward to do so: a smile and a kind word works just as well for some.

If it's me on the receiving end, I'd generally wish everyone luck and shake chappie's/chappess's hand on my way to the exit. Again, judging the situation.

FYP.

Pretty much that. Poker is just a game for 99% of us, one that we intend to enjoy. Those that enjoy it ARE the winners.

I really do think some poker players take the game a tad too seriously. It's not like they make a living at it, it's their hobby! 

I think you are massively missing my point.

I shake hands in all the situations you do and agree with almost every point you make.

However, when I have just been busted out of a poker tournament I do not think a handshake is appropriate.

At any other time I'll shake anyone's hand, at that precise moment I want to be anywhere in the world apart from at that poker table lingering around like a bad smell.

I just want to gt my shit together and GTFO.

It's a precise moment when the winner, if he has an ounce of compassion will let the loser do exactly what he wants.

Fair comment, yes, though I don't really think a poker Tourney is life or death, as it's recreational to me, so busting out does not mean a thing in my case. I accept that it is different for a Pro player. 

Surely the difference in opinion here comes from people who play poker primarily for fun and those who play primarily for a living?

In the former context I think people who refuse to shake hands are in the wrong, and in the latter those who insist on it are in the wrong.

As to the 'sorry' debate, I totally disagree that it's always false. I've made some horrific calls and sucked out on someone and said 'sorry about that mate' and truly meant it. I made a mistake and got lucky. I've been in that other guy's shoes and know how shitty it feels. I'm glad I'm still in the tournament, but I do have some human empathy and am able to feel simultaneously bad for someone else and pleased for myself.

Agree with every word of that Alun. To be fair, how many are "pros" in the company we keep at, say, DTD, or Fox. 1%?

BTW I'm only talking about big tournaments, WSOP or EPTs stuff like that, which really I get really emotionally involved in.

A £50er at DTD or a tenner rebuy at my local casino is totally different.

Well, EXACTLY.

The thread is populated almost entirely with recreational players, almost all of them playing £50 jobbies & the like, exactly as the OP does. How many Pros in this thread? 2? 3 if we include nirvana, obv.

Pro players, pro circuit, yes of course, entirely different.

But do you not see how you saying "sorry" just rubs it in and makes it worse?

If you really feel empathy you'll shut up and get on with the next hand.

FYP.

Shouldn't reject a handshake ever imo but I did it a few weeks ago. Squarehead knocked me out in two hands and reached out. I insta-brushed by in the heat of the moment. Happens.

Had the guy that knocked me out of my only WSOP event this summer chase me halfway down the strip to shake. What is that all about?

Don't agree the distinction is between pros and hobbyists. Some of the friendliest people at a table are hand-to-mouth pros and some of the worst etiquette see-you-next-tuesdays are once a week recreational players who are "due a win any second now".

The distinction is how people react after losing. Everything but rudeness is fine socially and, for example, I have no issue with The Camel saying he just wants to get outta Dodge pronto (not in those words, granted!). I wouldn't offer my hand to him but not because I think he's being childish or because I want to aggravate him further; because I recognise that it's not what he wants and I'm OK with that.

And that's what I think a gentleman does.

I meant it sincerely.

Context is so important too. A handshake can also be a form of congratulation. You shake someone's hand to say well done.

So if a guy punches the air when he sucks out on you then turns around with a huge grin to offer you a handshake is it not really a subconscious way of getting you to congratulate him? Those are the only times I would and have refused in the past.

That's a pretty huge assumption there that everyone is the same as you. I know that personally if someone says it sincerely to me it makes me feel a tiny bit better. I certainly prefer it to someone ignoring me and stacking their chips.

Different people are different. But point taken. And I'd like to think I have reasonable judgement so that I would know when to say something and when to shut up. It's part of my job.

That said more often than not I would err on the side of saying a few words. But no I wouldn't always say anything. If a guy's obviously steaming I will generally stay out of his way.

Virtually all professional sportsmen shake hands and congratulate the winner.

In fact a professional player should realise that losing is just part of the game. He of all people shouldn't get upset by it.

In my opinion. You should be the same man win or lose. It's easy to be magnanimous when your winning.

Sorry Keith, just rereading that it comes across a bit hostile. It wasn't meant that way, I was just writing quickly.

In pretty much every game or sport, yes. Except poker it seems.

As has been said in the thread, it is up to the loser of the hand to offer a handshake, not the winner. It is the loser's moment, his opportunity for a final gesture at the table - whether handshake, comment, or leaving quietly in silence. The winner should melt into the background, quietly stacking his spoils of victory - this is not his time.

Remember, poker generally isn't comparable to sport, where competitors can battle hard for 90 mins or whatever, and, irrespective of results, winner and loser can earn each other's respect for the way they've played. In poker, you've generally just sat near each other for a couple of hours before a random shuffle of a deck of cards decides that one of you should leave the table.

I can only remember not shaking an offered hand after someone once knocked me out of the tourney at the Vic with a huge slowroll - I already had him pegged as a massive douche and this confirmed my read.

Outside of poker, I'm not a huge fan of handshakes anyway - there are so many people who are massively unhygienic that I really don't want to touch them.

Poker is unique. I can't think of any other sport where so much luck is involved and so much is taken out of your hands. Yes there is luck in other sports, but nothing like the degree pros have to deal with in tournament poker.

I agree with you theoretically, but practically I think guys can be cut a little slack.

Also poker isn't a sport

Andrew says in one post what I've tried to say in 10 and he says it 100 times better.

It's the losers moment.

Let him decide the way to proceed.

I'd like to think I behave the same way if I win or lose.

I never jump around the room celebrating if I win (I might do if I ever bust Negreanu), and I never rant or rave if I lose.

Just don't think the poker table is a place for handshakes.

I'll see you in the bar afterwards if you want to shake my hand.

Bloody Hell.

After this I will probably never shake hands again. I will be too scared of offending someone, or contaminating them.

It just seems you are saying sorry to make yourself feel better about putting the beat on someone.

I can't think o any moment when an apology is less appreciated than when you've just outdrawn me.

Why not?

Yes I'm sure that's a big part of it. But also it's because you genuinely feel bad for the person. It's always 'sorry about what happened' rather than 'sorry'.

It is, however, your responsibility to make sure you're not causing more offence by offering it. I agree with that.

I'm super funking for a table draw with Keith sometime soon

Now can't we all shake hands and let this one go?

If it's someone I know and respect, there is no need to shake hands at the table. We will have shaken hands already and if we haven't I'll see them in the bar later.

If it's someone I don't know, I have no reason to shake their hands just because we have, by chance, drawn the same table at a poker tournament.

So a hug is completely out of the question?

These are both excellent reasons to shake hands.



There is no need to smile, or speak, or make conversation, or eye contact, but the world is a nicer place if you do.

I shake hands with people i know or who im meeting for the first time. I dont shake hands with people im trying to beat at a table. Unless they offer, and then i will because im not ignorant.

But by doing those things you're not really forcing the recipient to do anything in response - if they don't want to engage in conversation or hold your stare then they don't have to.

But if you hold out your hand for a handshake you're kinda forcing them to reciprocate as it makes them look the bad guy if they refuse it.

I always feel bad if I leave without shaking hands or wishing good luck.   I just don't see it any different to suffering a severe beating at 5 a side.  You may feel terrible at the time but that is no reason to forget you manners.   There can always be exceptions, I was pretty quick to leave my main event table when my opponent insisted in shouting "ship it, ship it" at me.  

Most exits are pretty standard and the handshake just feels like a recognition of that,  I had QQ, he had KK, always going in.  It is just the way the cards ran so no hard feelings.  

IMO they are the bad guy if they refuse.

FFS! You're shaking someone's hand. It isn't demeaning or embarrassing and in all likelihood, you won't catch a disease.

If Alistair Brownlee knows and respects the Spanish guy, there would be no need to give him a handshake after winning the gold medal.  If he did, people would view it as rubbing him down obv?

Wow. Canvass opinions... Achieved!

Context is so important here. I am merely talking about the post bust out handshake. I mean, it's thin I know but I even shook hands with Jason Herbert and Tony Kendall this weekend.

 I just hate when a guy busts me and shoves his hand in my direction like I have to shake it. I just wanna get the fuck out.

In most other handshake situations I think it's great to do so. Pre event with guys you know and haven't seen for a while, at work with someone you are meeting for the first time to do business with and many more. NOT though when some nomark hits his two outer, bangs the table and whoops like an excited American kid then wants to shake my hand.

That's an entirely different question to the original one.

The day poker is 1/100th as tough as the Olympic triathlon is the day I give up poker :)

Accepted its a bit different. But not entirely different. In general I don't like post bust out handshakes at all. If I am the winner I will never offer but if the loser wants to shake then I ain't gonna refuse.

Personally I am very tactile and enjoy shaking hands with different people every day but it just doesn't float my boat at the poker table. All the points made by the elders are true enough but I don't think those sentiments need to be applied to poker. I don't really know why that is, prob cos I'm in bad ass mode or something. Maybe if you substitute the word 'poker' with the words 'kicked in the bollocks' it makes sense. I don't think it's appropriate to offer my hand to somebody I've just kicked in the bollocks or shake hands with a guy who just kicked me in the bollocks. It's no big deal, I just think people need to insta limp to the rail when they get a kick in the bollocks rather than conducting some kinda exit ceremony around the table

Interesting thread and I'm in the camel's get the fk out of Dodge camp fwiw.

By far the most salient point for me was AndrewT's "It's the loser's moment".

I was going to make a proper reply, but I think I'll just substitute the word, 'bollocks'.  

You too Ralph?

Does losing cause you so much pain that you can't spare a second to show good grace and share a pleasantry?

I haven't had a game of live poker for months and after this, I may never play live again. If I do, it will probably be in sunglasses and hoody. Sulking and silent.

Don't forget to disinfect your hands, too.

Just put some of this in your manbag.
(http://www2.swaylocks.com/files/images/2009/03/hand_cleaner_0.preview.jpg)

If poker is to be accepted as a sport then the players need to act in a sporting manner both in winning and defeat.
Nothing wrong in shaking hands upon your exit from the table. It shows respect and manners, true sportsmanship.

In an extreme case,if we have a guy thats just given us a bad beat and 2 outed us on the river, he's an absolute tool at the table mouthing off all the time, we get it in, with him in terrible shape, he sucks out , high fives the dealer and the rest of the players at the table, then jumps over to you to shake your hand upon your exit. We now show real class when we just calmly shake his hand and wish him good luck. Few players will have this mindset and the character to act in a sporting manner in defeat regardless of how the opponent acts. That's what separates the true sporting heroes imo. They know they can control their emotions and return to do battle another day. They will be winners in their own mind and looked upon that way and greatly respected by the majority of people . A true gent / lady is a pleasure to be in the company of.

For those that refuse to shake hands,  just rush of to the bar or out of the building it shows a complete lack of class imo. Like crying little dummy spitters who just lost their toy.
It's a game ! Ok money prizes,trophies, medals for the winners , but is that not what all sporting events have. Some of the attitudes in this thread towards shaking an opponents hand are disgraceful imo, and its attitudes and actions like this that will keep poker from being recognised as a true sport.

I think you are overstating the importance of this Tom.

I can't think of many more congenial people to play poker with than Karl or Ralph, yet they don't think the moment after a bustout is the right time to have a handshake.

A wise man once said to me "losers can please themselves, winners can make their own arrangements"

Let the loser decide if he feels a handshake is appropriate.

An even wiser man once said "Anyone can sparkle in the sunshine, but when the sky darkens, only those with an inner light can shine".

Could not disagree with this more. How is shaking a classless guys hand showing true class?

Poker will never be recognised as a sport. My family/friends look down on people who play poker, especially as a living. I cant see people who dont play poker will ever see it as anything but gambling.

You just don't get it do you.
By shaking the guys hand we show we are not at his level, we are better than him , we are not worried or phased by his actions . We just lost at a game but at least can show we have self respect and will act with good manners in the most difficult of circumstances.By just storming off into the crowd refusing to shake hands we show we are really no better than him when it comes to manners and decorum.

"Quick lads, look the other way - here's comes Tom and Tikay and they'll want to shake hands with us. Especially that Kendall fella who bet against us"

(http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/files/2012/02/england-arms-fold-460x288.jpg)

You're not worried or phased by his actions, yet you want to show that you're better than him?

Story does not check out.

Well it's down to the players and how they conduct themselves to change these perceptions.

Quick Andrew, look the other way. She's invited you in for coffee and she might not have bleached her cups...



(http://cdn.thegloss.com/files/2011/05/pretty-girl.jpg)

I don't think it is

Loving Trott's cheeky glance at the camera.

It's funny how many seasoned tournament players in this thread still cant handle busting to a bad beat.

If everyone started shaking hands and being true gentlemen it would not change peoples perspective on poker. People will still class it as gambling, it will never be seen as a sport. Ever.

Of course it checks out lol
If someone pushes past us , do we then push past others to get to him ?

  Remember the same being said about Darts,Backgammon,Pool, Snooker,it will happen i'm sure of it , but going to take a whole lot longer until attitudes and perceptions change.
 It's down to the players to act like gentlemen yes it is ! Why wouldn't you want to ?

Would love to have that Chinese guy off banzai ready to pounce on the camel and keep shaking his hand for 3 mins when he busts his next tourney

I cannot see a card game being classed as a sport. Snooker and darts are totally different to poker. Im not saying that players should not act like gentleman, of course i would rather people werent ignorant, im just saying that it wouldnt change peoples views on poker.

From my perspective as someone both within poker and part of the mainstream media I can't ever see it. And the more we try and make poker into a sport like darts or snooker the more chances we miss to make the game bigger and better and more attractive to the mainstream.

Just imo.

What I type here is more just to explain why I find this whole debate so interesting than to suggest poker has it wrong:

My other two game hobbies are chess and pool. In both, you shake hands before and afterwards whatever happens and it is the most egregious insult not to. I've seen fights (in pool; just arguments in chess) over a refusal to shake hands. Actual fisticuffs.

In pool, you can fluke 8 balls in a row and there is still a handshake afterwards, even if it just cost you your 100% record, your team the cup and your dignity in front of your teammates.

As an interesting aside, a long time ago, I was playing chess in the English Junior Squad Championships. The game was drawing to a conclusion and neither of us had much time left on our clocks, so pieces were moving about quickly, adrenaline levels peaking and an audience of kibitzers (rail birds) keeping close watch.

I made a move and announced checkmate, in the honest belief that it was. My opponent agreed (it's a silly thing but sometimes a single escape can be missed by both players; there are odd blind spots) and offered his hand, which I shook.

A voice from behind me said "That's not mate! What about King b5?!" We both realised that we had missed this and, neither of us having seen this situation before, we called over the arbiter (TD) to advise.

His conclusion was that we had both shaken hands on the result. However incorrect it was, a conclusion had been agreed between the parties and the handshake sealed the deal.

It was embarrassing to us both of course but an interesting example of how a handshake is viewed elsewhere.

Some people in chess are rubbish at handshakes BTW; limper than Cheryl Cole's hair before her l'oreal treatment; weaker than a fifth pot bet on a multi way flop. You have to just let it go and resolve to beat them :)

Great post.

I would suggest from Toms background a handshake can mean much more than a welcome, whole financial deals are made by it in my experience with travellers, i have bought and sold many vehicles to/from travellers and never once has a handshake finalized deal ever been welched upon.

The poker equivalent of the pool handshake is to shake 500 hands pre and post. Not too practical. At a final I might shake a few hands to show im a great guy

Lol and a half!

When I was eleven this happened to me in the championship and there was no hand shaking, so I'm going back to the school to get it sorted out.  Bastards


oh and Red Dog Tikay neither of you shook my hand when you bad beat me, you just looked sheepish - you're bastards as well




lucky for you I don't dwell on these things.

You're right, a handshake, or more accurately among community members the striking of an outstretched palm is a totally binding contract, (There's a whole ritual that goes with it) but I'm not discussing handshakes in that context here. I'm just talking about the the 'respect your fellow man, common or garden handshake'.


I'm interested in the bolded part of your post. How do toy know the Travellers and what are your dealings with them? Are you in the motor trade?

the thing I like about handshakes after poker games or tournaments is it says "we gambled against each other for money, one of us lost, one of us but there are no hard feelings we were playing a game"

I'm not really one for "leave me in peace after I've lost money" I actually like shaking the guys hand who's won a big pot or busted me from a tournament because as a poker player I've often felt a little guilty about winning money form people, but they way I've always fully justified it and accepted it in my head is that if and when people win money from me I'll act totally graciously and even try and be happy for them. The handshake is almost like an acceptence of defeat, which I think is good, saying "today you were the better man, congratulations"

I remember losing 99 vs QJhh on 8h9h3* for nearly £40k pot about 01 months and the guy afterwards was hi-fiving his friends then offered me a handshake - I honestly loved it.

I think this is because I'm way less of a competitive person than most poker players, was speaking to Jamie about this the other day and was wondering how much of a hinderence it is as a gambler to not be fiercely competitive.

Hi Tom, yes in motor trade, years ago used to deal with lots of travellers who lived on edge of the town i grew up in, used to go to auctions / sales with them.

I thought it might be that.

Cheers Adrian. Cushty bok.

Why would you be sorry though ? You still wanted to win right ?

^^^ this

Surely you've felt this playing sport before?

Not that I'm saying poker is a sport. It's not. Just drawing a comparison.

When I'm writhing around in agony having being kicked in the bollocks I find an apology makes all the difference

 I don't believe this, I've never seen you apologise before.

If it's been pleasant table-company, when I get gg'd  I'll just tap the table and say "good luck guys" before making the walk of shame which might include the slitty-throat mime to any close friends who catch my eye in flagrante.

I honestly think that having knocked someone out of a tourney it's a little insensitive to force them to shake your hand when they are almost definitely hurting, and I say force because should they refuse the handshake they are portrayed as a bad loser.

As Andrew said it's the loser's moment so let them decide how to handle it.

I just don't see how someone could sincerely say sorry about something that they are glad has happened. I've never once felt bad about getting lucky over someone in a hand no matter how bad I've played it, whilst I can feel empathy for my opponent if he seems devd etc I couldn't genuinely be sorry for him as I'm glad I won.

Why couldn't you be both happy you won and sorry you busted the guy in the same feeling.

Loads of times I've said "sorry mate, UL" after getting a little lucky, and someone has said "Are you really sorry?" and I say Yes I am sorry that he lost unluckily, I am however, in the same way pretty dam happy that I got lucky and won. Just don't get it.

In fact I fint people in general pretty dam prickly over gambling, whats the need?

It's been debated to death before, but poker isn't a sport as it's not a physical endeavour, and all sports contain this element.

Anyway, I'm with Dave on the handshake thing and empathising with the person who has lost a hand (as we've all been there - except for Rastafish). Just because you can enjoy winning a large pot - doesn't mean you can't place yourself in the other person's shoes and understand how they're feeling. If someone says "sorry", they don't mean they're sorry that they got there, or that they're sorry their hand was better - they're saying that they're feeling sorry for their current situation - empathising with them.

It's bad enough offering a handshake after you win, but stealing the other guy's shoes is bang out of order IMO.

...and the shirt off his back.

If anything you should give them a pair. They have to walk away after all.

This.

I just can't understand the concept of needing to "get the hell out of there as soon as possible", or saying sorry to someone being so offensive! Really?!

I don't find either of them offensive, never been bothered by a handshake no matter what stage it was at. Just find someone saying sorry a bit bizarre and usually insincere.

Watched an young American qualifier get knocked out by a Norwegian on a 9T62T board (he had 99, the Norwegian had TT) in the early stages of an EPT. It was obviously a bit of a cooler, but the American ignored the hand of the Norwegian who'd stood up to commiserate the young American, pushed his way passing, cursing and bemoaning his luck.

He was slightly more sheepish when he returned to the table to retrieve his forgotten bag that was under his chair. He seemed to regret his lack of decorum previously, and the Norwegian gent caught his eye whilst offering a look of commiseration and the American took the chance to offer his hand and apologised to the table for his behaviour earlier.

Surely the handshake is a better way to leave than the teenage strop?

I think the hand shake thing is just fine.

Boxes talk trash. Us poker players call it banter/speech/Angle Shooting or whatever.

Just a show of no hard feelings either way. Onwards and Upwards we go.

More early stages of a competition getting lucky is an acknowledgement I got lucky. So offering a hand shake may stop abuse or a smack on the nose.

Final table you may have built a relationship of being matey sitting with the same folk for hours.

Far better to be nice I say.  


Regards

M

I feel an "official etiquette thread" coming on

So basically, i can take from these wide ranging canvassed opinions that views are mixed and there is no one over riding view... Thought so.

My most poignant point i'll take from this, which i liked is that i will allow it to be the loser's moment and leave it with them to initiate.

Very nicely summarised.

Although I suspect you mean 'resonant', rather than 'poignant'.

On reflection, I shouldn't have picked you up on that. It's your thread, after all.

Shake on it?

Fine summary, hopefully 99 % of people are persuaded to the loser's moment thing and will stop thrusting their chubby, germ ridden, smug hands in my direction when they bust me. Can we do another 10 pages - excellent thread

No.. Poignant is what i meant and still do :-)

Perfectly fine to continue with a decent send-off then.

"Sorry" annoys me when someone has been jumping up and down banging the table and screaming the ten of clubs in... then saying sorry when it arrives.  Otherwise yes, I don't think it's the smartest comment anyway, but I don't find it irritating from someone otherwise well-behaved, even if not particularly convinced they meant it.

If we both go all-in and you suck out all you've done is realise the bit of equity you had. Because we are both experienced we know that will happen some of the time and we just move on. If I know that and you know that why do you want to apologise to me for the way things panned out this time? Nod head and say unlucky is more apt because it shows an appreciation of my bad luck without apologising for something we both know is normal. Making a fuss by saying sorry is inappropriate because there is nothing to apologise for. It's like when you get in somebody's way and it is THEY who say sorry, yeah that weirds me out as well.

Not sure about the whole hygiene argument. How do you people ever leave the house?

....or touch chips & cards (which every other player also touches) with their bare hands, if they are minded not to shake hands with a player because he may not wash his hands after going to the toilet?

 

The other day I met a guy i knew at school id not seen for like 4 years. I told him it was "great to see him" in actual fact (no offence to him whatsoever he's a nice enough guy) I'd have been perfectly happy to never see or meet him ever again.

Is this insincere of me?

Exactly this, I would much rather shake the hand of someone that beat me, outdrew me, sucked out on me with his one outer than the twat that rants and raves about how lucky my opponent was. The day I can't lose gracefully will be my last game.
I remember very clearly a heavy cash game when speech play was frowned upon, a gentleman clearly lost very much more than he could afford, the game lasted well over 48 hours, with a few trips to the bank calmly whispering to me 'Could you lock my seat up for 10 minutes please'. About the 5th time and around £35k later he came back and stated that he was done, went around the table and offered his hand to everyone and with a smile said he enjoyed the game. One very well known British player was losing about £2k and was being vocal to me and the other dealer, refused to shake his hand.
From a dealers prospective there was one prick at the table.
You can't buy class.

To55er

I would say the majority of men walk out of the toilets without washing their hands.

Turns my stomach.
Doesn't stop me shaking hands when appropriate, just means I wash my own hands again before eating ;)

Quite so - but does it turn your stomach when you touch the chips & cards?

There are likely MORE germs on the chips & cards than on one individual's hand. Hand hand, I mean, the thing attached to his wrist, not his cards. ;)

Still at this? What are you lot like?

Let it go FFS!

Morning Stubborn Bloke.


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Wow, there's a lot to read. But basically it looks like some are trying to argue cleanliness, well if it's that much of a concern, why don't you do as us dealer (or the clean ones) do and carry a small pocket sized cleaning gel, they're great, refresh your face nicely too.

Then we can all stop worrying about the state of the chips and cards, and as a deaer i've seen things done with dirty chips, putting them in the mouth is the worst, at least they get a bit cleaner there.

Card room clean your chips, new decks on a regular basis (when they get dirty they stick and make dealing a nightmare), players wash you hands and don't eat the chips, don't eat greasy food and play with chips, now we can all shakke hands and be friends. In the old days that worked, it's the car park where the hand shaking stops, and any ill will is dealt with surely, not the card room..

If it was genuinely great to see him then obv no, the two situations are totally different though.

It's starting to a bit.

I like to shake hands when I meet someone new, or bump into an aquantance.
I'll also happily shake hands with someone at the table.
I'll rarely offer it to someone I've just knocked out, but will sometimes offer it to someone who's knocked me out by clearly out playing me.

I certainly wont eat with my fingers while playing poker.
I used to not do that so as not to contaminate the chips / cards with my germs.
these days, it's the other way round.

Why is it so much effort to washyour hands when you've been to the toilet?

I don't mean you you, obviously :)

When you get lucky against someone I think it just compounds the situation and adds more fuel to the fire of pain. Last Friday night I saw a Dtd reg quite embarrassed because he got lucky. Instead of saying  sorry he congratulated his opponent on well she had played and deserved better the way she played the hand. She just replied "yeah whatever" and flounced off

So he effectively said that he feels sorry for her situation. Nothing up with that, a sporting and gentlemanly gesture. She has every right to bemoan her luck, but she could always show a bit of class at the same time.

Thing is you can wash your hands after going to the loo, but you still have to touch the door handle, touch your chips and the cards and then shake someone's hand as they give you the proverbial rub-down. Your hands are instantly dirty again.

Maybe an alcohol gel dispenser on the outside of the toilets would be the most effective option?

Or if you are Luke Schwartz you have the balls to sit there rubbing your balls :)

One of the first things I learnt about poker is you shouldn't be results orientated...yet itt I am reading how lots of players feel the need to apologise to other players for the result??

Just plain 'unlucky' is fine. But nah, I don't want anyone feeling sorry for my situation. My situation is I just lost a hand of poker and will just shrug it off like a big boy. I bet you would shrug it off like a big boy too. So if we both know the score why are we apologising to each other about the result? We both know the result of this single hand is inconsequential in the scheme of things and we have both been sucked out on many times. So in fact her reply 'yeah whatever' and flouncing off is just fine and normal behaviour.

I remember a guy apologising to me when his AK beat my JJ...yeah I suppose that was quite unlucky for me as it goes.

Sorry about empathising with others.

I know how you feel.

That's not empathy :)

In everyday life empathising with others comes easily to me but I find it's not necessary to bring that attribute to a card table. I want to bust your ass and will take it any way it comes. Sure, say unlucky if that is true but empathy really isn't required when playing a game. Oh my, it looks like you've landed on Park Lane which I own and it's got like 3 hotels on it as well. But before we move on can I offer my apologies and say I empathise with such a cruel roll of the dice. Oh it appears you can't pay so it's gg but please shake my hand and accept my apologies again. Nah, seems like a rubdown or something.

I know what you mean.

If I imagine what a sweet tastes like to someone else, is that M&empathy?

 ;applause;

If you had been imagining what Stan's sweet tasted like it might have been eminempathy.

I'm here all week btw...

If you keep imagining what other people are imagining what other people are imagining and so on forever and ever what the sweet tasted like, it'll be ad infinitempathy.

You. Are. Welcome.

That would be exemplaryemathy.

Smartie.

Most of the table agreeing that Tiffany Michelle shouldn't eat chips with her hands at the poker table:

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8Qay92zE-Q

Classy lady:

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38PxHgf90Nk

Lol George. Just outside 5 mins from her name being mentioned before that clip gets dropped. Fabulous. And way quicker than I.

Not that it really mathers

Didn't she host for a poker news programme? Seem to remember she got a lot of stick for this.

Who made you marshall?

depends on who they are, how nice they have been, im not gonna shake someone hand if it isnt genuine on my part.