blonde poker forum

Hi,

There has been an interesting thread on Alex's diary about DTD cash games, if anyone has any further feedback or suggestions, please stick them on this thread, his blog has become a little "DTD - fied" as can often happen on here as players are passionate, here are a few cash game topics that come to mind;

1. Rake V Session Fees AND Charge (DTD rake only)
2. Levels of games on offer (we spread 50p-£1 +)
3. Straddles allowed/ limited (we dont allow straddles on 50-£1)
4. Min/Max buy-ins at start of game (varies on game)
5. Max buy in when game has been running (doesnt change at DTD)
6. Buy the button (not allowed in DTD)
7. Run it twice (only allowed in uncapped games)
8. Rabitt hunting (not allowed I think, erm...)
9. Spectators in the cash game area
10. Opening/Closing times for kicking out cash game players
11. Complementories - food and drink DTD does free soft and hot drinks/ some food compted on £2-£5 + games)
12. Rake Races, Bad beat jackpots (weve not tried them)
13. Barring Team Eureaka / Winning players :) :) :)
14. Rake on split pots (we rake)

Here is the Vic and DTD Cash game links, I have pasted the pages as best I can at the bottom on this post. I am fairly sure that The Vic and DTD are the largest cash game operators in the UK by some distance, so there is a comparision below.

http://www.dusktilldawncasinonottingham.com/cashgames.php
http://www.grosvenorvictoriacasino.com/poker-room/cash-games.aspx

Any help appreciated, seems like we need to make some tweaks, and with a fresh start with appointing Tom Cresswell as Cash Game Manager, seems like now is a good time. we cant JUST blame team eureka for killing our the £1-£2 games! (or can we :))

A James Keys "version of our cash games web page" would be GREAT.

Happy to make any changes that are for the benefit of players and the Club - I am a cash game player myself, I want DTD to be the best place for cash games, not just tournaments, I think it's fair to say we have been VERY tournament focussed over the last 5 years.

Cheers Rob

DTD CASH GAMES INFOMATION

Dusk Till Dawn provides cash games for all levels of poker players:

Games Available   Min - Max buy-in   Rake %   Rake Cap
NL £0.50 / £1   £20 - £100 (No Straddle)   10%   £5
NL £1 / £1   £50 - £250   10%   £5
NL £1 / £2   £200 - No Max   5%   £10
NL £2 / £5   £500 - No Max   5%   £10
NL £5 / £10   £1,000 - No Max   5%   £10
PLO £1 / £1   £50 - £250 Cap   10%   £5
PLO £2 / £2   £200 - No Max   5%   £10
PLO £5 / £5   £500 - No Max   5%   £10

Dealer's Choice / Round of Each available on Request
If a table gets short handed the following rake caps will apply:
4 players - £4 cap
3 players or less - £3 cap
2 players - £2 cap

More Information
On all games no matter what betting takes place NO FLOP = NO RAKE
If you have any questions about our Cash Games please email Tom Cresswell, Cash Game Manager - tom@dusktilldawnpoker.com

THE VIC - CASH GAMES INFORMATION

Cash games take place daily in the poker room at 'The Vic', with Hold'em, Omaha and other varieties of poker taking place 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. A range of stakes are available

Game Type   Blinds   Min-Max Buy-In   Charge
NLH   £1-£1   £40-£200   Rake 10% £5 cap
NLH   £1-£2   £80-£400   Rake 5% £10 cap
NLH   £1-£3   £120-£1000   Rake 5% £10 cap
NLH   £2-£5   £200-£2500   £7 half hourly charge
NLH   £5-£10   £400 no max   £9 half hourly charge
NLH   £10-£25   £1000 no max   £12.50 half hourly charge
NLH   £25-£50   £2000 no max   £15 half hourly charge
NLH   £50-£100   £5000 no max   £17.50 half hourly charge
PLO   £1-£2   £80-£400   Rake 5% £10 cap
PLO   £1-£3   £120 no max   Rake 5% £10 cap
PLO   £2-£5   £200 no max   £7 half hourly charge
PLO   £5-£10   £400 no max   £9 half hourly charge
PLO   £10-£25   £1000 no max   £12.50 half hourly charge
PLO   £25-£50   £2000 no max   £15 half hourly charge
Mixed PL
(Dealer's Choice)   £1-£3   £120 no max   £6 half hourly charge
Mixed PL
(Dealer's Choice)   £2-£5   £200 no max   £7 half hourly charge
Mixed PL
(Dealer's Choice)   £5-£10   £400 no max   £9 half hourly charge
Mixed Limit (Dealer's Choice)   Limits of £10 and £20   £100 no max   £7 half hourly charge
Mixed Limit
(Dealer's Choice)   Limits of £75 and £150   £750 no max   £12.50 half hourly charge
More games and different stakes are available.

Some of the games available on the Mixed games include: Hold'em, Omaha, 7 card Stud, Lowball, Razz, Badugi, Ace to 5 triple draw, 2 to 7 triple draw, Omaha hi-lo, 7 card stud hi-lo, Superstud.

3.  While I do like a straddled game and sometimes encourage for it to go round I think its prob for the best that they are limited to just 1 as they do get a bit crazy sometimes.

4.  I only really play 1/2 there and while I am not bothered by having no cap, there are a lot of people who are.  Last time I played cash at DTD a new table was opened and 3 regs bought in for at least a grand each and heard 1 guy moan about it.  Personally I'd like a 500 cap.

7/8/9 I am a semi-reg at DTD and have noticed that there is massive inconsistency on these 3 points.  If it's a reg that asks/is in the area then more often then not then it will happen.  Non reg and it won't.  Again none of these points bother me one bit but to some random/recreational player then these could get tilting.  At the last deepstack a reg was having a 10 min convo with 2 of his mates while playing cash and not a word was said.  Random guy then had a mate come to the rail and within 30 seconds there was a non spectators call over the speaker system. Random guy then commented various times about the favouritism shown to the reg players.

Of course any venue in the UK suffers the same kind of criticism from 'non' regs so its nothing new but  I think as DTD excels in just about every other way then surely you guys can come up with something to combat it, especially as you have so many major events happening there basically every weekend across all levels of the UK poker scene.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

How about once an hour on all cash games you have a 'DTD' pot where the winner of said pot got some kind of free gift.  Free DTD clothing/free food voucher/a golden chip for the next major tournie/free online sat entries etc.  Nothing of any great value just a little sweetener.  I always find it incred how much value people place on a poker related baseball cap.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Having said that of course the cash game playing experience at DTD is so far ahead of anywhere in the country its incred.  Keep up the good work!

that's good feedback Scott, telling me what YOU actually want is most important, dont worry about knocking the Club, we have won enuf bloody awards to know we are not total shite, so give us a bit of criticism on our Cash Game pleases, if you wanna say 'DTD, you are a bunch of robbin' bastards charging x', tell me! I know we are in a recession but we have still got to try and give players what they want.

And Neil Giblin and James Keys - can you guys spare 10 mins of your time and each do me new version of our @cash games and limits" web page and post in on here? Free desert as a price for your consultancy? In you 2 I trust.

My 2c as a recreational player trying to improve to professional level.

I've played in your 'big' 1/2 games and enjoyed them a lot, but I like others think they are some if not the toughest in the UK I've seen.

1. Make it as cheap as you can I guess.. I understand players prefer session @ 2/5 and above..
2. Games you offer are fine..
3. I like them, but it can change the game completely... possibly one/ two, or unlimited if it doesn't 'ruin' the game... but that would be upto Tom to maintain a 'recreational game'.
4. 50bb- 2/300bb is fine, little need for anything else imo
5. Potentially up to the 'biggest stack' worth thinking about a % of the biggest stack maybe (50-90%)
6. Need to allow this, tilts me so hard..
7. Not allowed anywhere else, not sure why it is allowed @ dtd?
8. Should never be allowed, dealers need to be strict.
9. Difficult one, i think it needs to be up to the dealer as to whether its interfering with 'his/her' game..??
10. Unless there is a good reason I think they should be allowed to stay as long as they like... there has to be a way to have a 'reduced' opening staff requirement if there is only a couple of cash games going..
11. All non alcoholics need to be free obv.. I don't play high enough to know about other comp'ing
12. No bad beat, unsure of rake races...
13. Finding ways to 'limit' how reg heavy a table gets is an idea... but I detest 'The Empire' for stopping 'friends' being on the same table


Hope it helps... would be great to have a constant and consistent game for when people like me who live further away to be able to guarantee when we come up for tournaments or a 'weekend'.

Jb


(also if you do want a word with me, I'm more than happy.  Just pm me.)

Thanks John Black. Dont forget you need to come and have a chat/drink with me when your next in the club! I heard you were there on Saturday but i was away :)

I play live cash so infrequently at DTD to really have a say in the rake.  

DTD provide the best service in the UK and as I am used to London based venues for the majority of my live cash play then I am sure you know this too.

I will happily play cash at DTD anytime that I am there.  I am a guy who makes my living out of poker tho and from the posts on blonde lately tho whats lacking at the moment is the random recreational players.  From my (fairly limited sample) own experience during the last year or so I have found the best games to be in the backroom games or ones held in venues where their legality is in a grey area and away from the casinos.

Like I said Rob, more than happy.. none of it was meant to offend.  I spoke to Nicola again to make sure she was ok.

I was planning on being up for this weekends deepstack but I am now unable to play Day2.  Then I'm away for a while with work.

Next visit should be the Dec deepstack, see you then.

- Loyalty cash points card

- Free tea/coffee/soft drinks

- Swivvely chairs option (think this would be a good thing to add)

- More change for dealers, not played cash all that often, but I think both times there has been shortage for change with dealer and players

- FPP's? Although I think there is some sort of bonus already in place?

One thing that I will say is that with a lot of promotions on cash games, usually they are gonna be aimed at the 'winning' players in the game.

I think the last promo that DTD did was to reward XYZ hours of cash game play with tournie entry seats.  I think that while these kind of promotions serve a purpose, as a game will be more likely to start/continue with regs grinding these hours, they don't actually encourage a random/recreational player to play more as they wouldn't have any realistic chance of getting a 1k Monte Carlo seat without it costing them ~K to do so.

So any new promos should be on a level playing field (everyone who play 20 hours of cash at DTD in a month and go into a draw for a free XYZ seat) or they should be promos where the 'normal' players have a chance to attain.

For too long all of the poker industry has actually rewarded the people who need the rewards the least.

buck buck buck buckeeerrrrrkkkk :)

I’m not keeping in line with the bullet points but will make my own

1.   Session charges on 2-5 and above NLH and 1-3 and above PLO (Not sure about DC)
2.   Spectators are fine but should be limited, people need to understand that they are in a casino
3.   Spread – Personally I think the .50/1 should be killed and replaced with 1-1 and above, my reasons are the following
               a.   People that play .50/1 will just move up
               b.   Players will take it more seriously
               c.   The rake is the same as 1/1 so will work out cheaper
               d.   I hate those white .50p chips

4.   Straddles – Should be allowed but limited on all tables, maybe a double straddle limit meaning the games don’t go to crazy
5.   Club should open earlier for Cash and close later (not sure if that would be a good business decision to begin with
6.   Feeder tables and more control of the cash game area . Have feeder tables into games that have a high risk of dying, like the PLO and 1-2 and above, plus not allowing players to move from table to table without some sort of order
7.      Min and max buy-in needs to be looked at and in line with national practice, 50bb to maybe 250bb or half the big stack whichever is more
8.   Having a monthly loyalty freeroll like the Vic

That’s all for now…

Rob, I have posted about this only tonight on Alex's page, but seeing as you have asked, and I applaud you for doing so, here are the changes I would like to see for the cash games at DTD.

The rake is too high, although the flip side to this is that generally only winning players get annoyed by this. I know you have tried to do rake free at the beginning of the night, and have also done rake reductions for short handed tables. These were good ideas and I'd like to see them back.
Ten percent, even though it's capped, is a massive chunk of every pot, especially when in reality most players' edges are smaller than they think. Personally I'd rather pay less rake and have to pay for coffee. I've never understood why poker players feel they have a divine right to a free cuppa anyway.

An unlimited buy in on a £1/£2 is a total farce. The buy ins have to be capped to retain the integrity of the description you have of the game. You are mis-selling the game at the moment and it's no wonder people have had enough. I'm surprised it's taken this long to be honest for this thread to come up.

The dealers are tired and fed up. It is good that they are rotated regularly but a lot of them complain about not getting a break, and I'm pretty sure they are not trained as thoroughly as they used to be. The turnover of dealers is quite remarkable and if it isn't a concern to management it should be.
There are very few dealers left who have the table under control and this is as important a skill as being able to shuffle properly and keep track of the pot.

The dealers aren't getting as many tips as the heyday of when you opened but it's not just because the players are tighter - the rake has made a difference, but really a lot of the time the dealers are so down in the dumps the players just don't feel like it.

Please bring back 9 seated tables, it is so annoying to be waiting for a seat when you are the ninth person available and the list for a new table isn't big enough yet.

Equally irritating is this 50p not counting in all-ins - I always feel like saying "I'm not quite all-in" but have always resisted the temptation. The only purpose it seems to serve is to guarantee the dealer a measly, insulting tip when a player loses his stack. If you hate 50ps so much, just remove them. If it's easier maths you want just make the game a £1/£1 game - most people complete from the small blind anyway.

Straddling is a tricky one - it has no place in the 50/£1 game and I'm not sure it does even in a genuine £1/£2 game but when you go higher it's probably OK as players at the higher buy ins generally like to gamble. For a tighter player like me they can be a godsend really because most players straddle so poorly and it's more dead money in the pot but of course it just makes the game bigger than advertised so perhaps it should just be removed altogether. I certainly wouldn't miss it. But if you are going to offer it you need an equal table that doesn't have it.

Promotions wise, the hours played for tournament buy-ins was well intended but was never going to last so please don't try that again. It would be better to do a royal flush jackpot or something - how about putting aside all those dead 50ps for that. It might not seem much but it adds a little something for the player. It's funny how shortchanged you feel when you get a Royal Flush and win about a £20 pot...

A bad beat jackpot is a bit naff really but if it can be done online, why not at DTD? You'd be surprised how many people believe they run so bad they are bound to win that one day.

Anyway, only a few ideas and nothing revolutionary but the gist of it is keep the games as advertised and for that you need a buy-in cap and to remove straddles, and look after the dealers more.

Hi Rob!


Hope it's useful, see you in St. Kitts :)

Lil Dave, thanks for taking the time to analyse each point pal, will let you know when we start arranging some decent PLO games, I will have a LOT more time after St Kitts, it will me ("token businessmen fish"), Devilfish and a few other 'old' players, regular PLO or ROE, not 'silly' stakes, just a regular fun game. Spread the word that their is gonna be a game starting but only to players that are rolled to play say £10-£10-£25 size, I really don't see the reason to have a straddle in this game (I am anit-straddle generally in cash games even though im the worst for doing double/triple straddles!). Oh -  can you also PR St Kitts as much as you can on the blog please mate, we are gonna have a fun time over there for sure.


Pyso, thats some good solid feedback, no problem with anything you've wrote, we need to get better in this area. Just one point, our rake has become lower and lower, its now at its lowest average per hour since the club opened. For example, even the £1-£2 uncapped Team Eureka game only rakes £88 average per hour at 5% at £10 cap. What would u suggest we rake the lower games?

Bankbang, I am really keen on a resticted no straddle beginners game, if we did get rid of the £50-£1 and just had £1-£1, I would still want a beginners/novice cash game, even if was break-even for the club. We have been doing 50p-50p PLO on wednesday nights and i really like seeing player getting involved in cash game for little risk. however I get your point, they are a little close although the no straddle makes a different on the £50-£1 game, needs a little thought, as I said, im anti-straddle generally, id rather have 3 blinds or just up the game level.

Cheers Rob

Am in Liverpool airport atm will reply in detail tomorrow. Gonna get that dessert!!

Cheers James, You and Neil Giblin are 2 players that come to mind when I'm discussing poker eco systems.

- the club/the winning players/losing players need to 'balance', the club takes a rake to breakeven (NOT to make a profit), pros need to earn a living and losing players need not pay too much for their hobby AND new cash game players need to be generated to replace the losing players, that's why the balance of cash games, rake, levels, straddles needs to be right.

- You mentioned in your post on Alex 's blog that the rake was too high on £2 £5, 5% with a £10 cap rakes £135 per hr before the costs of free food and drink -  what can DTD take out of that game to keep the balance right, is there a calculation?

- session fees versus rake, all casino operators want to move to a rake model that takes the same as session fees but without the disruption of asking players for cash every 30 mins.

- 8 handed or 9 handed cash games, what do players want and is there an inbuilt edge to pros dealing the game 8 handed?

The rake was one of the reasons I didn't play cash when I was down at DTD a month ago. I assumed it was still 10% which I always found to be a killer.

I think cash inherently plays bigger than tournaments. I've seen places offer 25p/50p or 50p/50p but never really seen such a game take off.

I think the lowest you can realistically do is 50p/£1 (or £1/£1) with no straddles allowed. I'd also have a 50p/£1 running with 1 straddle allowed. People playing at this level generally don't want the game to be running too big. Do the same with £1/£2 and you have:

50p/£1 - no straddles
50p/£1 - 1 straddle
£1/£2 - no straddles
£1/£2 - 1 straddle

There's a slight overlap between the middle two there but the difference is that players of course have the option of not straddling which changes the game dynamic a bit. Catering to each level of play hopefully means people won't sit in the lower games and make them too big.

The 25 p 25p game in g  manchester is the most popular game
During the weekday sometimes gets 2 tables maybe 3 but it kind of killed the 50p 1£ game

Me and a few friends were tempted to come play cash games a while ago but tbh the regulars seemed more than willing to discuss on a forum taking cash off any passing trade they got in an unappealing manner.

The final nail was the post about someone who was being mentored and got stung by one of them. Don't sound great to me. Rather stick in Leeds and have my money taken from me quietly.

My  2s from a 50/1 1/1 DTD grinder.

Sure will do, the good people of the DVLA have once more deemed me fit to operate a motor car so i'll have way less tilt getting around soon :) Those games at last one were good fun. Like the sound of third blind and no straddling, In the vegas they often run $10/$20/$40 (optional $80) instead of $25/$50 it defo runs more than 20% smaller but it's a really nice sized game and plays out a lot nicer than $25/$50, I've found a LOT more tourists play 10/20/40 than 25/50, sometimes even when it's not summer they can have 2-3 10/20/40 tables but can barely think of a single time I've seen more than 1 25/50 table in the bellagio. It's mostly down to the chips they use as well, 10/20/40 uses mostly $20 chips whereas 25/50 mostly $25 chips and that DEFO makes the game play bigger.

So like £5/£10/£20 with an optional £40 if you wanted for the kind of players that would be interested I think would make a really nice game. whatever i'll come down provided ofc, there is a least one token businessmen who is playing splashy :D

Will plug St. Kitts ofc, really looking forward to it.

Would it be poss to offer tables with straddles allowed and tables where straddles would not be allowed then let the players decide what they want? After a few sessions I am sure it woulkd become clear what people really want. Personally I think straddles change the game unfairly for those who are not as rolled as others. If i sit at £1-£2 game that is what I would like to play.... not a £1-£2-£4-£8. . Even jus 1 straddle to £4 makes a huge difference. Online games dont straddle so why should live. Anyone wishing to play a £4 bb should jus move up to a bigger game... Simples <3 dtd

As someone who has played a fair bit of 50p/£1 recently at DTD, thought I'd add a couple of thoughts. Hopefully I am typical 50/1 player so my views will have a little credence.

With the rake, I think 5% should also be feasible at DTD, I have played recently elsewhere where 5% was standard.

To those people suggesting getting rid of the 50/1 game, and just go to 1/1. I would disagree. What I love about the 50/1is that I can buy in for the Max, and it is an amount I am prepared to lose that night. If I bought in for £250 to play in the 1/1, because I like to have the max when I start, I would feel uncomftable with how much of my roll I was exposing. I think these views are pretty common, and it is important that DTD continue to cater for all. I think the current spread of games is close to bang on.

I would like to see a 50/1 game of PLO or ROE if possible, giving players like me the chance to play these games.

Straddling has no place in 50/1 imho, just makes the game too big too quickly.

Also, a lot of 50/1 players are guys who are rec players, they watch poker on TV, they see things like run it twice, and they'd like to do it. This rule is so poorly enforced, that it should just be made a blanket 'yes' imho.

Finally, raking split pots. Selflishly I say no, but would be interested to know the impact a decision like this would make on DTD.

When I think of 1/1 I consider it to be the same game as .50/1 except none of the fiddly 50p chips. Do DTD run a seperate 1/1 game with higher caps?

I don't understand why a casino wouldn't rake a split pot.

50/1 is £100 max, 1/1 is £250 max. Straddle allowed on 1/1. Massive difference

25p 50p optional £1 straddle £100 max as the smallest game?!

Have you considered doing a stt promo?

Fair enough. My local casino used to do .50/1 but changed it to 1/1 with straddle rules etc being the same as they used to be. The only effect was to remove the 50p chips.

I think it's spot on with regards to most of the points - one thing I'd say about max buyins- if you were ever to cap the 1/2 again, can there please be clause where you can buyin for is it half the biggest stack that they'd elsewhere? That's a good rule imo.

Buythebutton, fine why not. Run it twice - just in uncapped games imo (but that's kinda selfish I realise).

Closing times- 3am still seems too early, 4am imo and 5am on weekends. I wonder what effect this has on the ecosystem though as dave clearly thinks 2am is better for the long run health of the games.

Food and drinks- fine as it is, nice to get a free meal for the VIP games 2/5+ though.

There should be some sort of bad beat jackpot or bonus scheme. I think everyone who plays 20hrs or more of cash should all be entered into the same free roll comp with £x gtd paying a decent amount of the field, not top heavy, turbo, on a weeknight, no reward for playing 100hrs rather than 25- just trying to get more people playing the odd night rather than rewarding the regs. This is the only point I feel really strong about.

Raking split pots / rake in general - fine, do what you have to do to cover costs. But I think in general there needs to be a recognition that each cash game player rakes many many times more per night than tournament players (10x, 15x even) so it's great to see the imbalance being address.

Yh I mean I'm personally with you on this for the most part - I like playing through till much later but, imo, I think it's one of the things that puts people off poker, coming in far to late, being tired next day, getting a bit of grief from the missus etc if the latest they could play till on a weekday when people have jobs/school-runs, morning responsibilities was say 2am then i think you get a bit more longevity from each player. Also it kind of "caps" losses a little bit as someone isn't going to get steamed up at 12.30am then spend the next 4hours going off for 3x what he was comfortable losing. People losing money slower in the games is GOOD for the long term health of the game because it helps sustain the game. That;s just what I think, happy to be persuaded otherwise on this point.

Hi Rob, I dont play a lot of cash but did when i have i thought the rake was high but from the details posted in your OP it seems comparable with other venues (certainty the Vic).  I wonder if reducing the rake a little would attract guys from other venues to travel (eg leicester,leeds, brum)... Dont know, but it might. It seems to me you are getting most things right though. I reckon some sort of promo with prizes would be a great way of getting more people playing for sure. Obviously you want to reward the regs but surely this is abut gettin new players to the top floor and that in itself would reward the regs.

Also, can someone explain what buying the button actually means? Otherwise i dont really get why you would allow someone to do it.

Cheers
Greg

This......

Buying the button. I shall try and explain.

So you walk away from the table and come back and you're in the small blind position. Rather than waiting one hand you post both the small and big blind. The small is dead and you assume the big blind position and play the hand as normal as the big blind.

Next hand instead of the button passing you and you posting 3 dead you keep the button and don't post anything (because you did last hand) hence buying the button.

My views as a 4/5 weekends a year visitor.

Do allow buying of button.

Rabbit hunting is just totally classless and should be left to the Welsh who seem to love it. If a player wants to see turn/ river let em pay for it.

Running it twice only in your biggest game. It is a concept that many recreational players don't understand and should never be standard.

My only gripe about my last visit was getting any booze at the tables. Serious lack of decent waitresses on the Sunday of the 500k event. All in all we always seem to enjoy the cash games up there. 2/2 PLO is decent game.

1. Rake V Session Fees AND Charge (DTD rake only)
Rake on everything below 2/5 and charge above. Similar to the Vic's model here.

2. Levels of games on offer (we spread 50p-£1 +)
Love the fact the 50-1 is now the beginner game, and a nice addition at the 1-1 sizing.
The 1-2 no max is a bit daunting to have continued progression for players though, i'd much rather see a 100-450 or thereabouts...
with a half the biggest stack rebuy allowing players to still realistically get out of holes etc...

3. Straddles allowed/ limited (we dont allow straddles on 50-£1)
Personally i'm a fan of straddles, if people want to put more dead money in the pot, i'm not one to be a fun sponge and not let the fish be fish

4. Min/Max buy-ins at start of game (varies on game)
Keep the same, no issues here IMO

5. Max buy in when game has been running (doesnt change at DTD)
Half the biggest stack is pretty much standard in most UK venues now. Only relevant on capped games though so thoughts on 1-2 buyins need to be considered.
Potentially keep the 50-1 as standard 100 too.... if the aims a beginners game

6. Buy the button (not allowed in DTD)
Should be allowed, good for all parties imo.

7. Run it twice (only allowed in uncapped games)
I think there's certain situations, especially when a pot has escalated in the larger games that this should definitely be allowed.
Particularly in PLO where the variance is through the roof.

8. Rabitt hunting (not allowed I think, erm...)
This just slows the games down, fun for the occasional royal flush draws etc...

9. Spectators in the cash game area
No one sat behind, i despise this in cash games, but i'm definitely one for a quick catch up chat to see how people are getting on.

10. Opening/Closing times for kicking out cash game players
I'm used to the era of 4am and 5am at weekends here, unsure why that's changed.

11. Complementary - food and drink DTD does free soft and hot drinks/ some food compted on £2-£5 + games)
Spot on IMO, i'm now used to being robbed of £1 at the vic everytime when i'd much rather just tip the waitress.

12. Rake Races, Bad beat jackpots (weve not tried them)
Bad Beat jackpots are a win win IMO. It's always shared throughout the club anyway so you keep the regs happy, it creates more hype to get novices and beginners playing more of the cash games. And it gets some guy calling you down when you have the absolute nuts in hope he 1 outers a bad beat jackpot? whats not to like.

13. Barring Team Eureaka / Winning players  
After all the recent drama in some threads, it's still one of the funniest atmospheres to play in, and you won't find decent banter at many other venues.

14. Rake on split pots (we rake)
Despise this.



Side note: whats the current rule on languages? in play / out of play etc...? and how is it being enforced if it persists? hand / round bans etc...?

Great post

One more thinking aloud comment, something that was done at the vic in the past month....
At midnight a raffle was awarded on all cash tables still running, there was a highest card to determine who was the candidate on the table to potentially win a prize, this was usually money to spend in the restaurant etc... but could also be a free bet in the casino or some other little prizes. The main edge though was that the table was also nominated and the winning table was rake free for an hour. This kept people playing later and also gives a tiny incentive back to the players without doing any major changes to the cash game structure.

I'm not saying use this exact example, but you could potentially alter the idea to fit DTD's eco.

Caesars do something similar where u get raffle tickets every hand u win and then they draw two 100$ winners at 6pm and midnight. Spouse the problem u might have there is a huge exodus at midnight.

Like i say, alter to fit the eco. It's only really viable if there are enough tables already running.

The only thing i think is really important is reasonable max sit downs on tables. The fish can't go broke too quickly. Spread varying limits, but don't let the games bigger than they are or it won't be sustainable.

Gonna be controversial now but anyone who complains about raking split pots or rabbit hunting tilts the life out of me. Rabbit hunting takes like less than 20seconds and gives someone some satisfaction, why not just let them do it.

Rob has to pay bills, why does he care if a pot is split or not for rake? It's exactly the same as one of you winning the pot, how does no-one realise this?

Also PLO variance is exactly the same as NLHE variance, run it twice doesn't apply more profitably to either game.

It makes no difference to the casino who is receiving the chips. They should rake anyway.

agreed. It also makes very, very little difference to the player.

I'm also an infrequent visitor to DTD, but when I do I'm usually coming with the main focus on playing cash, so just wanted to agree with some of the points people have made here and also make a few of my own.

One of the big things that personally has a large influence on me is the opening hours, I was used to the late 4:30, 5:30 openings, and was very surprised when this changed to around 3am.

Me and a couple of friends usually travel up for a weekend so when we do we really want to get as much poker in as possible, obviously when the tournaments are running and just because of the way cash games run, it isn't really possible very often to get games going early afternoon, so we usually want to be able to play as late as possible instead to get the most out of our trip, the early closes really don't cater for this, and the last couple of times I've been at the club and the games have finished at 3ish, this has always confused me because almost everyone on my table had wanted to carry on.  I'd guess the majority of weekend visitors usually have travelled a bit further than weekday visitors and have probably paid for a hotel, travel etc so I'd expect there would be quite a decent section of weekend customers who would also want and be incentivised by later openings.

Suggestion is open later on weekends? As I can understand its probably not financially viable to be open late every weeknight with the current numbers anyway.

On the note of straddling, I think it should definitely be allowed on every game, including 0.5/1. I remember playing 0.5/1 before and not being allowed to straddle and it being explained to the table that it was only at 1/2 and above. I remember a player at my table commenting at the time it now felt like this 0.5/1 game was insignificant compared to the other games going and he wanted to move to 1/2 just so he could play in a game that 'looked respected and taken seriously'.

I think there should be one rule for all if I'm honest. A 0.5/1 player should be treated the same as a 1/2 or 2/5 player, they are just as important, if not more.

Also whilst on this point, I think the same should apply for 'running it twice' I think this should be allowed on all games, and all quirky sorta stuff like this should be allowed, if a player has seen this happen on TV they probably want to do it as well, even if they don't understand why, it's all probably added excitement and fun to the players and offers something different to games elsewhere.

I think there should definitely be a cap on the 1/2 or at least a choice. I thought last time I visited new limits had been introduced and there was now both capped and uncapped 1/2, when I got there ready to play and the game was starting it quickly got changed to an uncapped from a capped one at the request of someone, without really consulting the rest of the players taking their seats, this made me feel uncomfortable straight away as some players started buying in what I thought to be redic deep to start a game.

Pretty sure I had some more stuff to add but I've just realised the time! Not sure if this is of any use or if I've just rambled on haha...

I'm not saying never rabbit hunt, it's fun when the hand had some kind of entertainment value, but when x,y,z, wants to see if they'd have actually hit there flush on the river if they'd called x,y,z it gets tedious and would slow the games down, especially if this were actually made into a consolidated rule.

And running it twice normally isn't focused on profitability, it's more on reducing variance for both parties in coin flip chances and larger pots?
I don't see why if all parties agree there shouldn't be a reason for someone to potentially not be felted by a pot that's been escalated in a 50/50 chance.

Theres already been the occasion of this at DTD...

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hVXrMiFrBw

Dunno Dave, if every pot was rabbit hunted then you get quite a lot less hands per hour and you'd get so many tilting ones - "I folded 73 let's see whether I would've hit my straight".

Since you can have a grey area I think banning it altogether makes sense. Ifnthe dealers a good lad can also use their discretion to do it very quickly and subtly in an appropriate hand.

I get that point but at the same time I think Rabbit hunting is one of the best things for a poker game.

Player folds flop and says "next card?" the dealer quickly bangs the turn card over then gets on with shuffling for the next hand, with good dealers it barely slows it down imo

I think rabbit hunting can sometimes make weaker players tilt. It just seems a bit unprofessional to me somehow? Like a home game.

i used to frequent the 1/2 game but wasn't beating it & as a consequence wasn't enjoying it & it must be getting on for a year since i've played cash at DTD (yes i game selected poorly).
stuarts OP has opened my eyes to what i couldn't articulate, namely that the game was too competitive & played way bigger than a 1/2 should.
anyway, that's my story, what i wanted to comment on was running it twice; running it twice is only fit for home games, when playing with friends & not in a card room - IMO it destroys the integrity of the game & i cringe when i see it on the telly (other than that hellmuth hand vs the kings obv).
if a new guy sits at the table & sees a big pot go off & the outcome is that they chop it up & breath sighs of relief, it's just looks very bad (esp if new guy then tries the same but runs in someone who 'doesn't run it twice')...if you get it in with a flush draw, or call it off with top pair, that's your action & you should take your medicine.
it's like if you know three of the guys at the table are always happy to run it twice you can play your hands more aggro because, instead of either winning or losing you now have two ways not to lose, you could win it outright or chop it...the fact that it's allowed doesn't detract from the fact that it's pretty much collusion.
btw, it was great to see 4 or 5 tables of PLO going on wednesday night, great initiative tom, it looked like everyone was having a good time & i aim to jump in at some point.

4 or 5 PLO running? More details stakes etc please?

I find it hard to play midweek but might be interested now and again if my work diary allows.

Julian

You are absolutely right.

Run it twice is very very bad for the game in so many ways.

i dont think it makls them tilt personally, not from my experiences people just like to see. I kinda like to see sometimes as well lol I get it. I do get the point though Gouty

Actually I agree a bit with Julian about RIT, would be better if no1 knew it was an option. I never (or at least very rarely) run it twice for the reasons Julian stated but I know a lot of people like it... on the fence.

Also, why is being like a home game a bad thing?

are you the Lee who plays all the cash games in Manchester and plays cash in Blackpool when the Gukpt is in town?

Pretty much spot on...

1. Competing on rake isn't usually a good strategy.  Those who care about rake generally aren't the customers you're trying to entice.  That being said rake has to reasonable (10% up to £7 on 1/1 was ridiculous).  I think your current rake structure is pretty fair.  

2. 1/2 should be a capped game IMO. £500 or half the biggest stack sounds fine to me.  Players sitting with £200 at a 1/2 game shouldn't feel short-stacked.  If you leave the game uncapped with multiple straddles, it's not too dissimilar from a 2/5 game.  That may be why your 2/5 doesn't run very often.  Rest of the games are great, I like the .5/1 as an introductory game.

3. One straddle max for me.  Gives the option for those who like it, doesn't alienate those who don't too much.

6. Buy the button - sure, why not?

7. I like to run it twice (three times preferably, like to have a winner :) ), but can see the reasons for not allowing it.

8. Rabbit hunting, don't care as long as its done quickly.

9. Spectators - often builds interest in the game, may get new people involved.  Allow common sense to dictate when there are too many people in the cash game area.

10. 3AM is pretty early for cash to finish.

12. Rake races, bad beat jackpots I would much prefer a high hand jackpot or bad beat jackpot to a loyalty freeroll or rake race.  As an occasional visitor those types of promotions have no benefit to me and actively put me off visiting a room.  A BBJ or HHJ gives me a better chance of return on the extra 50p or whatever that you may drop per hand.

I actually far prefer HHJ or an easier to win and smaller BBJ as it flattens out variance and also returns more money to the poker economy and more frequently.

First new dtd rule all suggestions in non eye hurty colors pls!

Me too. PLO cash every night, excellent.

I think that PLO lends itself alot more to low-medium stakes live poker, rather than NLH which at the top end as Stu pointed out in his succinct post  is very high intensity and and relatively pre-flop focused. Really wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of live action shifts away from NLH.

ouch. fyp

As low as beginners tables with 50p/50p and as high as you want, part of a promotion of PLO mentioned in the main dtD thread I think.

(http://www.dusktilldawncasinonottingham.com/images/promotions/omaha-cash-game-night-banner.jpg)

http://www.dusktilldawncasinonottingham.com/omaha-cash-game-night.php

From 8pm every Wednesday. All low to mid levels, on request/demand

I strongly agree with this. No Limit Hold'em is just a very, very bad game from the perspective of sustaining good games that give recreational players the perception of having a fighting chance. It is intrinsically flawed, since it is too 'cut-throat' by nature, and the edge good players have over weak players is too large - the recs don't have a punchers chance. And I say this as someone who loves NLHE and has played well over a million hands of 6max NL online, as well as regularly playing live NLHE for much of my poker career (although I am primarily a mixed game player). I am intending to write a post on this subject on my thread fairly soon.

Tbh, I'm just fkn bored with live holdem now. Would rather fire up a bunch of tourneys online than sit there for an hour waiting for a hand to play.live.

Widen your range?

agreed

= doing my bollocks

Disagree. Obviously there would have to be criteria for doing so to avoid it happening with every all-in, but it's not suggested very often anyway. Regs will use it sparingly and it the right situations, fish will get it all-in lighter because they know they have a chance of seeing ten cards and not five which is more exciting for them. Tried and tested.

Maybe if the pot is above a certain value or summat? 1k maybe?

Purely integrity.

The things that make the game fun often don't go down well in licensed casinos. I had that same thing as you where I never bet a guys last £28 with nuts in a £1000 pot. They tried to consider my hand void.

Always better to keep it simple I think. What happens in those big games in Vegas? Can't see you asking for rabbits there or am I wrong?

maybe look to make it fair across all games.. 400bb??

In Vegas big games (talking $50/$100+) the dealers do w/e the fuck the players  want basically. Most of the time in those games the players are experienced enough to "manage" the game themselves. For example, millionaire Saudi sat there with $80,000 wants to see the turn card you really think any of the 6 pro's in the game are going to say no? I would personally allow anyone to rabbit as I don't care but you get the point.

People run it twice/three time/four times do deals, chop pots, give people $x to fold, throw people money off stacks etc honestly DTD 50p£1 games are much, much more "professional" than these games. You have to know how to handle yourself in this type of game, it's a way different type of environment.

Great thing about Vegas is dealers are taught that they are providing a "service" so if everyone at a table wants X then they can do it (within reason) without fear of getting in trouble. Not saying that isn't the case in the Uk but people are way way more uptight about the rules in the UK in my experience.

btw gouty i'm not saying ^^ is the right way for DTD to operate, just answering the question you asked as someone who has a decent chunk of experience there.

I get the point you're making very much, even made a post with very similar points in Alex's diary, I think personally there is a line that suits nicely in between but you have to trust the players/dealers to monitor and enforce where that line is. I'm not sure you can trust people to do that, in which case taking a 0 approach to this could well be the best option as you say.

I personally am still undecided and on the fence on the issue. I know which environment I like to play in but that doesn't make it the optimal one.

Nice posts Lil Dave. Cheers.

I think all in all dtd get cash games right at the festivals I have attended. There are always plenty too which is good. More importantly we always seem to have good fun up there which is a testament to the dealers and regs I suppose. The vic always seems a bit serious.

I am a bit of a nit for rules I suppose. Maybe I should chill about rabbiting. It just reminds me of self deal tenner rebuys in Cardiff 10 years ago. They were all at it. Hehe.

Some good feedback in this thread, and of course it's also good that DTD want this feedback in order to offer the best cash games they can.

As a recreational player who's there mostly at the weekend (as with many I'd guess?) I think there needs to be some way of getting the cash games running earlier. Quite often it can take a good hour or so for a game to start up on a Friday evening.  The 2/5 players seem to be 'organised' and a game can be scheduled to start at 8 with a list of players with their names on it. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to do that for the 1/2 game (also a cap on this game makes a lot of sense to me in order to keep the 1/2 games active and thriving - with a specified reload size based on the largest stack) and get some regulars in early doors that will lead to the games running consistently from earlier in the evening, rather than taking until well after 10pm before a game can be guaranteed.

I like the current spread of games.  The .50/1 is ideal for beginners - and it makes sense to have no straddle or a limited straddle for this game so everyone playing it can sit comfortably and learn the game without feeling uncomfortable. The 1/1 game is a good transition before the larger 1/2 game - and many players will switch between these two games.  I don't know about the bigger games, so not my place to comment.

If there are times when the cash games are regularly quiet, or the tables start to break, then it might be sensible to focus any promotions for these times.  'Happy hour' with reduced or no rake early in the evening to help get games going, or later in the night when people are considering leaving. Of course, if it affects the revenue too much and doesn't make sense commercially then it should be a non-starter.  Bad beat bonuses are seen as fun by many, and people who play elsewhere certainly seem to notice the lack of them at DTD. Not sure I like the idea of increased rake to pay for these though (which is surely the only way they can be funded)?

I like playing 8-handed instead of 9-handed. BUT, when a table is limited to 8 seats, it often plays with 6 or 7 players (as people sit out to go to the loo, get a drink, have a fag, or when a player leaves and there's a bit of a time gap between then and the next player sitting down).  This means the tables can be more likely to break. So although I like the 8-handed tables it might actually make more sense to have them run 9-handed?

Easiest thing would be to let them do it as often as they want but just rake both pots.

Should keep it down to a minimum.

Can't think of a worse idea.

I would fully expect nit poker players to say that, I don't think its the worst idea either tbh.

Agree 100%, it's a horrible expression and defo needs out of poker.

Agree totally. I have been trying hard not to use this term for a long time. Even just 'thinking' about poker in terms of there being 'fish' is completely the wrong way to go about things. It fosters a lack of respect, and stops you seeing poker in the right way.

Rob, just in case DTD ever considers introducing a must-move system... the following is a GENIUS was of implementing it. Can't believe this is not the standard method already:

If you rake it twice nobody is going to go for it. Even whatever Ian, Dave and Stu want to unanimously entitle players that don't play for a living, and players that play even less so for a living are going to object to being raked twice.

Explain why raking it twice is a good idea. Might as well rake 50% and we should just fade the poker and go and lump stacks on red or black. Or we could all just turn up, give our money to the club and go home? That would save any enjoyment or disappointment from actually playing the game and would save a lot of time too.

Recreational thinkers imo.

come on this is common sense, DTD should without doubt be happy to run it once from a purely poker ecology pov.

What is the main problem atm? There are no games.. "everybody is busto" "skint" "going bsto quicker"

running it twice allows people to STAY ALIVE LONGER thus meaning they rake MORE lifetime.

Pretty sure the 'rake it twice' wasn't intended to be taken seriously

Neither was the "give all our money to the club and go home," just to clarify. Sorry Rob. :)

I'm going to start trending the term "non-pros" and see if I can get it to stick.

Nice term

Will work for loads of pros I know.

 Ahrt

Don't geddit?

Why not just use recs?

Could just not label them as anything, start trending  'some players will do/like to do x and some will do/like to do y', or variations of could work when you need to refer to different situations that crop up, everyone will know what you mean anyway and nobody needs to be labelled as such.

Probably talking bollocks, but it made sense to this Non-Pro/Fish while I was reading :)

Players who make a living from the game but don't act professionally?

For the reasons above and from the points I made in my last post about uplifting the winningest players at a level, my suggestion would be to move to a session fees model for £2/5 and above. It would be nice if we could go back to the days where I used to pay £5 per hr for £5/5 plh in Aspers Newcastle (people still complained obv), but being realistic I would say that in Nottingham you probably need to be charging a little less than in central London so something like £6 per person per half-hour would be a good level for £2/5, and £8 for £5/£10+.

Political correctness gone mad.

Fish is offensive I agree but other terms such as recreational, amateur, inexperienced, non-professional should all be fine yet after x time of their usage being acceptable, people decide it's offensive and we have to find another word.

I think the context is important to be respectful, then it's not really that important which word you use, so long as it's never associated with any sort of disrespect, snobbery, classlessness, arrogance then it's hard to offend people. But even so you'll always offend someone.

I'll never forget when I got flamed for saying a tournament was soft once on my diary!

I do find it hilarious when "pros" make arrogant and classless comments about a recreational player who earns 10x the money they earn, are 100x smarter, classier and cooler yet just happen to enjoy playing poker in their spare time and aren't Phil Ivey. #wpsir

So what are you gonna call non pro's that aren't amateurs either eg George2loose?

Why do we need to be labeled anyway?

I don't understand the need for names tbh, they are just other players..........

I'd still call him an amateur :P

This discussion is stupid and its existence is more patronising than the word itself by a long way.

Me too

Everyone needs labels otherwise everything is so just long and tedious. I just wouldn't ever post TRs or cash game updates if I had to say

"So I enjoyed the cash game, there was one other player who plays for a living, one player who does not play for a living but has been playing for many years but does not play very often. Another play has played for many years and plays four times a week but does not play entirely for a living since he has a part time job and a business. Another player is self-employed but plays a lot of poker. Another player is very new to the game but does play for a living and finally there is a semi-professional player who is very experienced.

Label are fine & dandy.

I'm as pleased as Punch to see the theme of a little more respect for our opponents though (especially those deemed to be inferior) gaining currency amongst the opinion-formers. This can only be good.

There is, however, a supreme irony in the whole "you are a fish/retard/moron" thing after a player loses a hand, in that the comment is almost always made by someone who is themself.........umm......recreational. . Every time I see it, I can't help but be amazed at the false & misplaced arrogance.

From what I can see, I must be about the only fish/recreational/ND/idiot left alive. Actually, strike ND, as I'm not. Guilty as charged for the rest.

Everyone is an expert it seems.

So I love the new theme.  

As Alex has just Posted, "amateur" works fine for me. Which is correct for 99.9% of the poker population. "Good" or" bad" amateur/pro is fine, too, so are hundreds of other adjectives. Let's just be done with the deliberate insults though. The whole "let's insult the other guy", often because he won a hand of poker has run it's course I think. Hope......

 

The problem is general, Alex, not specific to any individual.

I remember when this thread was about cash games at Dusk.

Whoops, sorry.

Back to the thread then, which has been superb, I think.

For the guys who play £2/£5 and above, what about "Time" pots?

Assuming you're paying £12ppph then on a 9 handed table at 2/5 the time due is £108ph.

At the start of every hour the first person that wins a pot over £325 total pays that £108 to the dealer. If one player doesn't want to play Time pots, they pay their session fees separately and if they win the first pot, it rolls over to the second pot.

It's something I've read about in USA live cash games that seems to work...

Any hybrid of the form "x-tard" is prolly wrong. Other than that I have no idea why people are moaning. Do the people who are moaning really stop people mid sentence if they hear someone say the word idiot in day to day conversation?

If they do, they're idiots. There, I said it.

Could both camps be appeased by leotards? Has a "tard" but no negative connotations.

Urban Dictionary Statto. Spotted it ealiar.

firstly forgive me as i haven't read all the previous 8 pages so if this has been brought up already

as a very recreantional player, i have always viewed cash games in any casino and not just DTD to be full of "pro's" and or regulars that play night after night, so as a result been put off playing.  Hard to sit down and everyone at the table seemingly knowing each other, it seems very intimadating

However the main reason for me is the orignal buy in driven by the games, as per the opening post, ..." we have cash games for every level...

50p/£1,, the lowest level on offer, for my isn't the level of most recreactional players, with the thought that you need as a minimum 50x time the BB, with the norm being 100x.

so my question is  -

what is stopping DTD offer .10/.20p or -.10/.25....much more comfortable amount to stake at the very lowest level, whilst attracting more casual players to the club, with a view to climbing the cash game ladder?

They would have to rake it to death to make it worth them spreading it, that would put people off I think.

I think 10p/25p or 25p/50p would be a great idea. Make it a £4 per hour session fee and basically run it as a loss leader to get more people in to playing cash games.

You could do it on specific nights and restrict it to between 8pm and midnight. Hopefully at midnight any winners would move to the bigger tables.

To be able to sit deep enough to be worth playing at 50/1 you need £100. Let's face it, anything less than 100 big blinds isn't really a proper cash game. £100 is a lot of money to some people particularly the majority of players DTD seem to attract. Generally the £25 tournament gets plenty of runners. These guys aren't going to want to risk £100 playing cash.

If they're prepared to risk £25 + whatever the rake is in a tournament I'm pretty sure they'd stump up £25 to join a cash game once they'd been ko'd. If they know it's going to cost them £4 per hour +/- whatever they win or lose I think there's a good chance they'd give it a go.

You could even make it a fixed buy in of exactly 100 big blinds. You wouldn't want people sitting with a tenner but you also wouldn't want people going silly.

Just call it the beginners cash game. Market it as an affordable way to get people used to playing that slightly deeper style of poker that cash games are good for.

People just won't move up if you introduce lower levels. Think it's a bad idea

I read somewhere once about ...

The £25 game ...blinds 25p/50p buy in £25 no more no less ....reload also £25 hence the name

I personally wouldn't play it but I know mrs fish would !

Why won't they? Some people may be scared to invest £100 in a cash game when they've only ever played tournaments before.

They might stump up the odd £25 though which could help build their confidence with minimal risk. Once they're happy with the style of playing cash games they may be tempted to take a shot at a bigger game.

I'm pretty sure that out of DTD's 50k members the vast majority won't risk £100 in one night. This is just about getting them playing even if it's at low stakes. If 50 players have a go at 10/25 who wouldn't have otherwise ever ventured in to the cash game area surely there's a chance of 1 of them progressing through the ranks?

I'm sure it's the same for tournaments. Out of every 50 people who regularly play the £25 comp I'll bet there's only a couple who move on to play the £500s.

I really think the cheaper stakes u offer people the more inclined they are to take it. Think Paul Ho said that at Manchester g the 25p 25p is now there most popular game. You offer punters a cheaper chance to play think most would take it

It might be worth just starting with just 1 table max and see what happens and whether the players nit it up or move up.

Just thinking out loud here.....

25p 50p table

Max buy in of £50.  Once someone has £125 in front of them they are requested to leave the table?

Would keep the game at a beginners level, nobody sitting deep, therefore it plays like a beginners game, and billy big stack then wants to have a dabble at 50/1

Promote it on a Thursday when it is beginners tournament night.

Just a thought.

1/2 died in Newcastle when aspers ran .5/.5 games. Unsustainable games are bad for a poker economy

I have no opinion on whether this idea is a good one in principle. But if it is then you'd definitely be better allowing the big stack to remain at the table, but forcing him to remove some of his stack. Much better than making him leave.

I think this is a great thread and much respect to Rob for starting it. Loads of people thinking outside the box and suggesting interesting ideas. It shows just how much the poker community, and blonde in particular, wants DTD to succeed.

Think that if you are gonna down have a micro cash game route then it needs to be run on one night only and be as far removed from the next lowest game as possible, so 25p/25p with a 25 max.  If you have a 25p/50p then it will affect the 50p/1 too much.

i think a £25 game one night a week for a 'limited' time period is a great idea for the beginners to have a 'go'.

Maybe two nights to really 'hit' the market.  Just rake it to death, it won't have 'pros' on it anyways.

Dont think this 25p/25p is a bad idea, but if its £25 max sit down, and theyre gonna pay £4 p/h sessions they should pay cash, not off the table or everyones gonna gradually be playing £2.50 each or something.

Dont see why this couldnt be introduced on just a thursday for 'begginers night' or something, everybodys got to start somewhere.

Dont like the 'take money off' or the 'asked to leave' ideas tho, getting used to playing cash is about sometimes being deep etc, and your obviously only playing effective stacks when somebody has much less anyway. Dont want people hit n running all the tables money every 10mins.

Planning for a couple months down the line. Good to see mitch. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

1. Rake V Session Fees AND Charge (DTD rake only) - Off topic kinda but ideal world decrease rake and increase number of games, everyones a winner. Sessions do tax nits who dont play hands which is a bonus but they slow the game down and can give people reason to leave which is not ideal.. rake probably better in long run as long as people dont think its too high.

2. Levels of games on offer (we spread 50p-£1 +) - The problem with the club it seems to me is too many small games at the moment. When Gala notts was at its peak  in my era) there would be as many as 4-6 1/2 games running. Maybe eveyone has done their money who knows but alot of people will play 50/1 when they can afford to play 1/2 just to pass time cheaper. Im talking cynically but killing 50/1 completely and running 1/2 (capped) poss 1/2 (uncapped) + could be better. SnG's could be a low stakes limited risk option for people who cant afford cash games (this is common in europe). 25p/50p is a terrible idea imo.

3. Straddles allowed/ limited (we dont allow straddles on 50-£1) - No straddles in games smaller than 5/10 could get bigger games running and also people know what they are playing before they sit down.

4. Min/Max buy-ins at start of game (varies on game) max buy ins on games smaller than 5/10 could be a good idea but can think of some lively 5/5 games that capping the buy in wouldnt help... tough but capping 1/2 is a good idea probably for recreational players. Having this all on the cash game screen so you know the rules before you play would be a good idea.

5. Max buy in when game has been running (doesnt change at DTD) keep the same.

6. Buy the button (not allowed in DTD) should be allowed

7. Run it twice (only allowed in uncapped games) only available in 5/10 plus or very big 5/5

8. Rabitt hunting (not allowed I think, erm...) do not allow slows game too much

9. Spectators in the cash game area - common sense required here, agree with earlier posts about bias for regs doesnt seem right.

10. Opening/Closing times for kicking out cash game players - balance between whats good for club(running at a loss) and whats good for players should be drawn. Dont think keeping games running late will have a detremental effect on games in the future though.

11. Complementories - food and drink DTD does free soft and hot drinks/ some food compted on £2-£5 + games) - personally think putting money saved here into cash game initiatives would be money better spent than giving people free food.

12. Rake Races, Bad beat jackpots (weve not tried them) - Rake races - bad idea .. bad beat jackpots - bad idea...  again better idea to advertise lower rake or happy hours or some initiative that will make people think they are getting value for money.

13. Barring Team Eureaka / Winning players Smiley Smiley Smiley-

14. Rake on split pots (we rake) - not a massive issue but some mixed game players really dont like it ... kinda sucks to get less out of a pot than you put in when you win.


All this being said its going to be hard to get games going in nottingham as there is not a lot of money in the poker pool going about at the moment. It would be good to get the whole Notts poker community playing in 1 place as alot of people playing in alea/gala if they all came to dusk till dawn should be better for everybody. I think the weekly tournaments are not bringing in the right sort of people to stimulate cash games, people who play 25-50 freezeouts generally are not going to want to play decent size cash games. I think starting some rebuy tournaments which could generate huge prizepools is a good idea as it could increase the catchment area of the club bringing more people in and this will have a knock on effect of boosting the cash games as people who travel will generally be bigger players. Drawing on my knowledge from nottingham in the past we used to get alot of people coming from Derby, Sheffield, Birmingham and Luton to play the nightly tournaments because they were the best prizepools on offer in the week. I know this is alot more difficult now because of competition in neighbouring cities but i find myself now wanting to travel to these places myself to get action so if i want to do it why not others coming to you?....  Maybe all i said is nonsense ive had afew beers so whatever lol

There was cake all over the place in Dtd tonight. Too frightened to help myself but it looked good. What was the cake all about?

This...

Looked like you'd had plenty of cake to me.

i have had a couple of pieces in my time. Have you been smashed by a pair of Queens lately?

Typical night out in Belper...

Any port in a storm...

I actually think Pete's post is pretty damn good. The re-buy tourneys in an evening are a defo great idea, I remember in Leeds when the £20rebuys would run (sick value, terrible structures etc) you'd get the perfect kind of crowd down to fire up a juicy cash game, people who like gambling basically.

There used to be a £20 rebuy at the Broadway in Birmingham on a Friday night that made as much as 15k. It was insane.

They've gone out of fashion though; people (myself included) like know how much they're spending.

Upto about  4 years ago there was a £20 re buy Mallu/Gosney benefit fund raiser that made 10k every night if the week somewhere along the m62. Stockport 36, Naps Bradford, circus Manchester, Leeds Naps, 235 Manchester etc. They just died over night about 4 years ago which suited me because the twins were born and family came first. There was a little revival in Sheffield G/naps but they managed to cock it up. Stupid Yorkies :)

Edit: probably 80% of the players were the same at all these venues and travelling was accepted as part and parcel of the game.

I watched nick Slade play from the start  21 buy ins all in 21 hands before he actually won one. £420 to get the night off to a good start.

My fav was the £250 re buy first? sunday of the month at 36 stockport and had aces bust all in pre 3 times in the re buy period. Twice by Abid :(

used to love the £20r at naps in leeds.  1000 chips & blinds of 100 & 100.  Incred. 

Oh yeah!!!

The old 20 rebuy! What a great night out. Stanley's in Bristol. At the break we used to all pile out to the Portwall Tavern next door. They sold Thatchers Gold cider. Only pub in the west at the time. I am crying now thinking about those wonderful 25 minutes. Or actually 45 minutes if I had a decent stack.

Best days ever really. Never understood reverse implied odds then and never gave a shit either!

C'mon Rob

Lets have a real wanky 90s style £20 rebuy weekend. Imagine the cash games?

And Simon running about like fuck to the shout of "CHIIIIIPPPPPS"! every 30 seconds.

yh ^ incred.

I'm in.

Just to give rob some good news, I'm sat at genting sheff and there is nobody in the card room!

i really enjoy poker, i have been to DTD a handful of times (6 or 7 i think) to play in tournaments and only played as i have satellited in (its an hour from where i live and Cov gcasino is 20 mins) but never played cash.

i probably would have a go at cash but only at smaller levels but once eliminated from a tournament the last thing i want to do is ask about what cash games are running, i wouldn't be bothered whether there were regulars playing or not or how much they had in front of them. What i would want (not even sure you don't already do it) is a screen that tells me what cash games are running, min/max buy in and whether there is a waiting list or not.

It might sound simple and daft but i bet 90% of those who have never played cash are the same...they don't want to ask they just want to see. ..as we don't know how it works.

Just my twopenneth from a non cash player who will probably spend a couple of hours trying it one day.

There are screens telling you exactly that by the cash game area, updated constantly with waiting lists

you see...didn't even know that   :dontask:  i will have a look next time i am in

this feedback is great guys. i am going to arrange a meeting at the club with card room staff and maybe some of the cash game players. of course, as you can already see from the feedback so far, players often have opposite opinions on what our rules should be, so its impossible to make decisions to keeop every member happy, but hey, will do our best. keep the feedback coming, ill be printing the full thread off an breaking in all down into sections to discuss.

cheers Rob.