blonde poker forum

This came up a while back, I made a ton of good points, everyone agreed, nothing came of it. Since Will posted about making change, I thought I'd bring it up again.

At Dusk, a 30k stack will look like this. 8x25, 8x100, 2x500, 3x1k, 5x5k. The result is that change is asked for once per hand, sometimes requiring two people to break it down completely. Consequence being that you get 10 hands per 30 minute level, not enough hands are played so not enough players get felted, the entire field is still left in with 8bb by the third break, the otherwise incredibly structured tournament breaks down into a crapshoot.

I dealt a tournament for D-4 once where there was the TINIEST amount more change on the table, and change was requested at most once per orbit. It broke down something like this: 12x25, 12x100, 3x500, 7x1k, 4x5k. Some stacks were 2x1k and 5x5k (and then there were 2x10k chips, which was horrible, but for the sake of a 30k stack we can disregard that. A 50k stack would be more 5x5k in some stacks and 1x25k in others.)

This obviously doesn't matter for the nightly tournaments so much, but for the deepstack events it saves all the frustration of this thread (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=59143.0) from manifesting.

Thoughts? Rob/Nick/Simon is there any reason this wouldn't work? :)

Miss the days when u started with no 5k chips

I think the 30k starting stack for the deepstack this weekend had 4x5k chips so had more change.  There wasnt a whole lot of change having to be made so it wasnt that bad.  One thing Id like to see is if someone is moved tables early in a tourney and has a bunch of change, the dealer/TD prompting them to sell a good chunk of it back to the table before leaving

Played at Grosvenor last night. A 20k stack was: 3x5k, 3x1k, 3x500, 4x100, 4x25. Shocking.

I think 8x25/100 is a minimum. 12x should be the standard.

Should get at least 4x500 rather than the 2x which seems standard.

And anything up to 10k should be in 1k chips.

For above that I'm happy for 5k chips to be used instead.

So for the 30k deepstack I'd do:

12 x 25
12 x 100
5 x 500
6 x 1000
4 x 5000

250x 100 chips 200 x 25 chips imo

Honestly, if it was up to me, there'd be WSOP change on all tables! Its really not amazingly difficult as a dealer to count these stacks.

Seriously though, what you say about the D4 stacks is spot on Sean. It was sooo much easier when I dealt Goliath (where they had the same thing). Its not just annoying for players, us dealers feel bad keep asking the same guy for change every hand lol

I love the change.

I only play live to build a stack

Love stack building.

Was something I used to find awesome at DTD.

Now they chip up like everywhere else :(

fyp

Stack building is fun for everyone (well 99%..), dunno why this can't be put in place.

 :goodpost:

Lots of change is fine, until people start counting out a call of 400 in 25's

 ;grr;

people that do this are 'changed' up at the end of the hand until they learn their lesson.

seems perfect.  it always confuses me at the lack of the 500s at DTD!

BUT any reason why each dealer can't have a float of change?  Just 1k in 25s/100s?

Great idea to make this thread. Long overdue imo. Definitely need a little more change at least. Agree with scotty and cf.

Agree more change from outset. When Ryan (dtd) goes for my stack later on in a torn, i threaten him with no tip if I cash. Unfortunately didnt follow throught last time tho..

Ooh. That's a good idea!

plus if you get off to a good start in a tournament it's fun to build castles!

.

A big stack should look and feel big as opposed to looking like you might have half a dozen more chips than the rest of the table imo

BUMP.

Thread needs more love.

Indeed. Playing the £150 was a joke after the yellows were chipped up (seems they shrunk every stack by 1/2). Almost every hand someone had to swap with someone for 100's or 1000's. Really think dusk should cut some slack and let us have chips to play with. That and the dirt on the chips are my only gripes. O, and the way im running on cash.  ;reallyamsorry;

GET ROB ITT.

This.

Totally understood when they were running the 3-day £500, the 2-day £150, the £100 freeze and the 1-day £150 all at once, there might not tangibly be enough chips in the building.

Saturday was a little silly though. Agree we need Rob/Nick/Simon itt. Love Dusk, love the cash games, love the tournaments they offer and the structures they use. Why ruin it by using so few chips? And this isn't a dig at the new dealers either (I've been there, I know what it's like) but sometimes in high pressure situations they get change wrong, which adds up to a lot of mistakes over the huge amount of times they need to make change in a pot.

Bumped this thread while I was playing the £150 and was getting too much second hand embarrasment witnessing the farce of chip-changing.

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease.  ;pokergods;

Played at Grosvenor last night. Start you with 4x25 and 4x100. Absolute nightmare. Especially when the antes kicked in.

I played the 150 and had loads of chips and it was really fun. Then they chipped me up and I was out in 20 minutes.

I'm not saying it was 100% because of being chipped up, but you get my point....

I know that society as a whole is less tolerant these days, poker players more so, but "ruin it"?


Blimey. What cosseted lives we lead these days!





(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o541/tikay2/You-Cannot-be-Serious-198x300.jpg)

If you offered me two identical tournaments, one where they don't chip up and one where they do i'd go out of my way to play the one where they don't.

It perhaps doesn't "ruin" a tournament, but it's a major turn off for me when my stack gets attacked in that way.

Tbh although I agree with most of the points, I think dealer mistakes would go UP with more change. It takes the new ones quite a long time to count stacks as it is. They struggle with stacking in 20s, and counting the smaller denominations. I was taught to put things in stacks of 20s and count like that, but the news ones seem to do very strange methods (e.g. putting the 100 chips in 10s and the 25s in 4s) and it takes ages, they get flustered, knock stacks over etc, it all takes a lot of time.

I guess with more change put there players will do more swaps, alleviating the pressure from dealers etc

Helps alot with multi way all ins aswel.
Easier to do side pots with change.

I'm saying the structure is ruined because things don't move as fluently as they should. No point having a great structure in place if things are going to move slowly. Disagree that amount of dealer mistakes will go up. All you have to do is count chips if there is lots of them, rather than breaking chips with two different players for sidepots, chips everywhere blergh.

I dint know how many hours it takes to get dealers 'competent' as a standard, but I know it took me a while in 'self deal' tournies to get the hang of it.

Just ask the 'silly person' betting with their 25's to kindly change up with the person next to them.

more tournaments with PILES of chis please, I've not been able to play these 'chipleader' comps but I would hope that if I turned up with 800bb's I would have a stack that an unnamed omni-present being would be proud of.

I assume there is a good reason for it, but why can't we all have towers of chips?????

I would imagine that players hoarding phallic-like structures of mini-denom chips slow the game down just as much as not having enough small denom chips. When a kid has 6 stacks of 25's all piled higgly-piggeldy & goes all-in, it is a dealers nightmare, not to mention that it eats up the clock for other players, so is pretty selfish.

The "silly person" betting in 25's? Some might think that hoarding mountainous towers of chips for purposes of ego & delusion is equally silly.

It takes all types.

I still disagree with your choice of adjective. Ruined? The chip denoms can RUIN a Tourney structure?

Are there not 20 or more other things that impact our enjoyment of a poker tourney, for better or worse?

I'm not having a pop at you, I just find it extraordinary how intolerant we have become in the poker world. 2 x 100 instead of 8 x 25 & our Tourney is ruined? Meanwhile, some lads are deliberately hoarding the small denoms just so they can make a pretty pile. Where's the sense in that?!

As you know, I've worked for an Online Room for 6 years now, so I DO know how intolerant poker players are of even the slightest perceived imperfection. I promise you this - if you could see my daily PM inbox you'd proper faint, honest, you would!

I'd like a quid for every time I see or hear it tilts me so hard, or one of it's 54 variants.

Can we not shrug our shoulders & overlook these trivial things, do we HAVE to let them ruin our day?

Beware the real world, outside our little poker bubble. There's proper tilt out there man.

EDIT - I think the point I'm trying to make, badly as per, is that Live Poker, especially at DTD, must be pretty well organised if we can be irked by such a minor thing as chip denoms, or maybe we have become a little spoilt by just how good it is compared to pre-DTD days. Cast your mind back 5 or 6 years, jeez, Live Poker was SO badly organised. If a Tourney started within 45 minutes of the advertised time back then, we thought that was a bonus!

Yep, agree with you Tikay. Chips are just a medium and your overall ambition is to collect every chip in play. Emotional attachment to how the small % of chips sitting in front of you look to others and feel to you is all pretty much of an irrelevance in that grand scheme of things. The number of chips you have at any given time is just a cold hard mathematical fact. If you introduce emotion into that relationship then it complicates things because when your stack takes a hit so do your emotions. People should learn to stop stroking their stacks because it doesn't mean anything, it's just counters.

Forward all your moaning e-mails to me and I will be happy to take care of them for you. It might cost you your job like, but happy to help.

There's lots of nice one too.

Life's rich variety, eh?

Perhaps we have become spoiled.

Ruined wrong word then. Point still remains.

As a former dealer can promise you that big stacks are no problem to cut down in a matter of seconds, but changing chips up is ridiculous.

Also, I'm not saying chips shouldn't be coloured up as the tournament progresses. I'm not saying this because I like to have big deep stacks and look balla. My point is that a tournament never gets going if chips need to be broken down every single hand. Only the starting stack need be rectified.

Well done Mantis, your DiMaggio-like streak for missing the point completely is still alive and well. What I'm trying to do here is improve upon a great tournament, at what point did I mention emotion?

Of course the amount of chips in front of you is a "cold hard mathematical fact," but making a bet of 125 with a 5k chip and there being literally no player at the table who can break a 5k chip into denominations that allow a 125 point bet makes tournaments a "boring arduous mathematical process."

my thoughts on Saturdays £150.00 dealers seemed to be all new and hands were taking longer and yeah think the chips stacks should be made more easier, ul with ur A7 pal, The cash was slow as well, new dealers learning i guess.

I don't think I have missed your point. Your point is it's tough to make a 125 bet out of a 5k chip if there's no change. I didn't respond to that point because it's obvious. I responded to Tikay's point about ego and delusion. That's why the post starts "I agree with you Tikay" and goes on to talk about ego and delusion. I'm sorry I didn't address your point in my post. For the record I agree it is tough to make a 125 bet out of a 5k chip if there's no change. Hope everything is sorted now.

At what point did you mention emotion? When you said the stack ruined your day.

Then they should be trained better/of a higher standard to start with.

If a dealer has to count a stack then the way that stack is made up should be irrelevant. If it's an issue then they shouldn't be dealing poker.

From experience you are correct here if the dealer is competent enough. The problem of delaying action imo isn't really with the dealer, it is with the knob player who has shed loads of chips in various denominations and wants to bet 700 in 25's and needs to count them themselves after a dwell up. Or even worse the chip hoarder who insists on collecting all the lowest denom chips ( i.e. bet is 325 and hoarder puts 400 in 100's to collect change) making the amount of low denom chips at the table irrelevant as players/dealers have to keep changing up with them.

From experience you are correct here if the dealer is competent enough. The problem of delaying action imo isn't really with the dealer, it is with the knob player who has shed loads of chips in various denominations and wants to bet 700 in 25's and needs to count them themselves after a dwell up. Or even worse the chip hoarder who insists on collecting all the lowest denom chips ( i.e. bet is 325 and hoarder puts 400 in 100's to collect change) making the amount of low denom chips at the table irrelevant as players/dealers have to keep changing up with them.
[/quote]

Yes you may be unlucky to come across an idiot on your table that behaves with poor table manners whether that be long unnecessary dwells, chip hoarding, smelling etc, etc. But thats poker. The real point being made that really doesnt need to be an issue is the time it takes on virtually EVERY hand (on every table) to change chips between players because there are not enough chips reasonably provided to play poker.

BUMP

what was the problem this weekend?

50,000 starting and....

constructive feedback good!

Been referred to this thread from a post on facebook this morning as I was looking at putting up on here myself after this weekends Six Max.

I understand with multiple tournaments happening at once in the card room it may be sometimes difficult to just have chunks of change at the tables, but mistakes are being made by both players and dealers without a reasonable stack. But, there are mistakes being made because of inadequate chip amounts

With the new structure, we remove pre ante levels at start with antes straight away. We started with 8x25 chips and after folding the first orbit, I was already having to stick in a 100 chip or ask for change to meet to 50 ante. The main issue I have is that during the comp and in the past, there is atleast one instance a level where someone wasnt giving the correct change from the dealer or a mistake occurring.

1) Someone sticks in 100 don't get change and have to query it and ask for it back.
2) There is one ante short, or one ante too much and noone knows who it is. Spend a minute arguing over a 25chip even though everyone has 50,000.
This has a negative impact on both the dealers and players and also slows down the overall tempo of the table.

The second issue which is from a recreational player point of view, is that without the correct or variety of denominations within their stack, people arnt betting what they want.
Yes, probably the players fault, but majority of the time it is a confidence or image (Don't speak incase they give away a tell) reason for not verbally declaring the amount. They count there chips, relize they haven't got the right denominations for there required bet and insted of saying 725. They just stick in 800 or even 1000 etc.

The other issue from a recreational point of view is that when they cannot match someones bet, there is always an instance of someone accidentally raising by putting in several higher denominations when they only ment to call.

We all love a tower and I am one that does tell ruin to leave me alone when changing before they need to be changed, but it is mainly so I have enough chips to make bets on amounts I want to make.

More chips please! :)

Nothing wrong with starting amount (50k) or the structure in general.
It's just mainly as posted above, mistakes being made as a result of having a small amount of change.

Also, nothing worse in a massive pot when you bet a certain amount and the villian doesn't have correct change. Then dealer turns and asks you to fumble around to change it up for them.

EDIT.
PS. You know I am a proper fanboy of eveything DTD does, so in no way a moan or a grip at the 'new' structure at all. Just a small point that has been something I have said to various staff every weekend. Besides not having enough chips in the building to do it, feel it is something that can be easily introduced with no hassle. (besides Ryan counting more chips pre torney)

I do love having lots of chips on a poker table (doesent happen often)

But i believe the more chips on the table in fact the slower it takes. If someone has no change it can sometime take 5-10 seconds to get that sorted but all the 5 seconds add up when there are hundreds of chips on a table. Most notably when someone goes all in and they have say 150 chips it can take a while to count all them out and then you will get people saying, so how much is that about 50 times. Whereas if they have say 10 chips they could have exactly the same amount as the person with 150 chips but its a lot clearer how much they have.

Even people who have played a lot struggle with having lots of chips whereas its quite easy to handle less chips.

lots of change is  bad, quality dealers control the table such that they minimise the need for it, and if they have any competent professionals/regs at the table life can easily be made more smooth.  betting 725 or 700 BET 700 LIVE FFS it slows the game down and is literally pointless live. it's fun and w/e but it's much of a muchness and getting a few hands more in is so valuable.

these comps sound good with the new structure.

This btw. It's fun to bet silly amounts but pls stop.

As me mentioned the new structure is good. Not bad.
I totally take on board that LOTS of change is bad. Im not on about everyone starting with 3 tiers of 25/100 chips just so we can bet 'silly' amounts. It slows the game down more everyone asking for change everyhand. Aload of people insted of putting a 100 chip in for the 25 ante ask for change from the dealer or a person directly. Majority of the time the dealer waits for the change to be swapped before dealing. Or a player gives inadequate change amounts, ie. change 5k chip and you get 5x1k chips.

If there is not enough change in the pot to cover, surely something is 'slightly' out.
Had a chat with a few and always knew negative feedback would be giving on it. So thanks for actually giving a reply and not a 'shit idea, next' reply. :)
But if the correct bet in my mind is 725 i will bet 725. I wont bet 700 cus its easier, I should have the free option to do so.

lots of change = lots of ££££££. Gratz on taking the 8Max down and hoggin so much of the change. Sick chip towers(or phallus as TK likes to call them) pics please.

Very good!