blonde poker forum

Somehow I've never seen this before:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiRCAFDKL6fIdHE0QWt5elZMUkU4YzVrSlBVZk5EMFE&hl=en_US#gid=3 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiRCAFDKL6fIdHE0QWt5elZMUkU4YzVrSlBVZk5EMFE&hl=en_US#gid=3)

But I notice it is a few years old now.  But what I do notice is that it is somewhat looser on shoving than I am. I must admit I'm probably more inline with Harrington with shorty shoving ranges!!!!!

Are these ranges still current - or should I be looser/tighter??

Like yourself I don't think I have ever seen this either.
Had a quick glance and i'm pushing way looser with sod all BBs than what the charts suggest

It is a nash chart and assumes you and all your opponents are playing perfectly against each other's ranges

I have no idea what Harrington shoving ranges are.

Remember any chart is just a guide because every single shove will be dependant on villain's stack sizes and calling ranges

For pushing surely it doesn't matter what they do?

I have a similar chart based on Ms rather than BBs and antes of various sizes which gives the same info in a much simpler format.

The M chart is from

http://www.tournamentpokeredge.com/tpe-member-duggs-hand-history-review-part-1/#comments

and can be found here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B79VmReXwhagc1FMQVNzWVYxajA/edit?pli=1

Put the chart or a link to it up so we can see. If you say its tighter than the Nash one then you probs need to loosen up a bit. Oppo dependant etc etc

Level?? ??

You think you can shove the same against nitty fish who fold A9 when they shouldn't as you can against good regs who call with Q5s when they should?

What MC said.

If people are folding too often the cut off stack size for jamming any two say SB vs BB increases.

hmmm obv you play these things a lot more than me but I thought that (ignoring bubble situations.) the whole point about gto is that if someone calls too wide or too tight they will have lost when the dust settles. 

The reads would only really apply from the button or sb anyway and seeing as the gto push with 9m sb vs bb is 54% of hands and every time you are called too light you win, do you want to give up that edge?  Also I thought the whole point of using gto ranges is you don't need to adjust or care about anyone else adjusting.

I might be persauded to do that if it wasn't going to lead to being exploited by the tight opponent adjusting.  5m sb vs bb is a push with 70% according to the chart so for the amount of times its going to occur, its not a deal breaker.

If you are jamming nash, and your opponents are calling too tight, then you have also lost money by not shoving wider than nash.

The problem with that as a general statement is that unless you are in a situation where you can push 100% vs this tight opponent (prob 5m or less sb vs bb), the adjustment has to be marginal, isn't it better to stick to a formula where you must win if your opponents don't call perfectly vs your range?

charts are for virgins

My position iss that you can use the chart from anywhere, others seem to think that you can vary depending on who has to act, I don't really agree.

Using the chart exactly as is will mean you are making unexploitable plays against other people assuming they are also playing correctly. As soon as they deviate then you must adjust/deviate also or its costing you money. It doesnt really matter how marginal it is or not... losing money is losing money.

Thank you, you did a better job of articulating what I was trying to say...

I didn't say the amount of ev-/+ was marginal I said the adjustments were.  By that I meant they were difficult to implement.  

Also I am happy to be proved wrong but I'm fairly certain that the looseness or tightness of the opponent has to be substantial to justify any adjustment.

A pretty simple example is 5m in the small blind opening:
 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,93s+,84s+,73s+,63s+,52s+,43s,
A2o+,K2o+,Q4o+,J7o+,T6o+,96o+,86o+,75o+,65o,54o

So whats the worst hand that a tight bb and a loose bb would call with that would make you adjust from this range and how much would you adjust?

yeah, agreed its extremely difficult to adjust. Sorry if I didnt quite understand your point before

However, you cannot just follow GTO charts to the letter as explained before. If you want to, thats fine and in certain situations, as you correctly point out, where adjustments are extremely marginal then its not hurting you too much. In practice though, players (especially at micro stakes) are playing so far from GTO you have to adjust. How you do this is through study off the tables playing with the ranges in different spots, and a lot of practice :)

This is my understanding of the theory anyway, maybe someone better than me can chime in and correct me