blonde poker forum

http://www.lbc.co.uk/woolwich-serious-police-incident-72441

the interview is harrowing

what a horrid world this is or can be

just listened to all of it really is harrowing

one of the killers flagged down a local bus and had his photo taken

Local witness on Twitter

https://twitter.com/BOYADEE

Regards

M

right. except he's not actually speaking words, is he?

If all is as appears, my only question is why are those 2 animals still alive?

Suggesting its muslim extremists now FFS.

Had to laugh at this tweet

BOYADEE 3h

Mate ive seen alot of shit im my time but that has to rank sumwhere in the top 3. I couldnt believe my eyes. That was some movie shit


"sumwhere in the top 3" ?!!?!?

What else has he seen?

I know it's shocking and just terrible.

 " man she took him out like Robocop"


Regards

M

Incredi-tool.

How much he's from a middle class upbringing?

As for the actual story, reports are unconfirmed that the victim was a soldier.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630303

It is believed the incident was filmed.

They have just shown parts of it on ITV

I really wish they wouldn't do things like that. The description of what happened is more than enough and anything else is purely ratings-driven, rather than public interest/journalistic integrity.

Humanity just landed on a snake. We'll ladder back but it will take time.

Judging from the video, the accent of one of the guys involved was definitely born in London.

Barbaric.

Neither video footage nor pictures should be shown. It's just what the c u n t s want.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/22/woolwich-police-shooting-machete_n_3319793.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cuk%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D181410

whats that got to do with anything? its the problem if a religion not of a country.

So they can be tried in a court of law.

Exactly - he talks about 'in our land women have to see things like this'. 'Our land'?? This is your land, prick.

This.

I would expect the police will have been ordered to shoot to disarm/disable, rather than to kill.

Also, it is simply above irony that in the press conference, David Cameron publicly expressed British support for the Syrian opposition.

Does he have any idea who some of those guys are?

What in the blue fuck?

He's just strolling about chatting to people. Passers by are about 5 feet from these mentalists!

Vermin like this should be culled on the spot, let's not waste any time or money on them.

History is just a collection of "what happened next" reports after we sold some people weapons.

Do you not think it's better that they are able to be questioned? Find out anything they may know about other attacks, for example?

Kinda my thoughts as well

It's a catch 22 situation.

Whilst it may be what they want in order to stir others to do similar, it also shocks good minded folk into putting more pressure on the authorities to do more about this whole sorry affair.

No photos or videos, it goes through the press as another brutal, politically motivated murder and most say "that's shocking" and move on.

Faced with the pics/video of the sheer brutality and attitude of the attackers, more good minded folk are likely to add their voice to encourage more to be done.

Whilst I would be more than happy that these 2 were indeed dead, there are potential intelligence gathering benefits that could be gained to identify other individuals prepared to do similar and prevent this.

 Flushy's  reply of  "So they can be tried in a court of law" is correct, it also shows great restraint by our police which wouldn't be afforded in other countries.

@ Pleno, it matters greatly that they appear to be British born as it further enforces how deeply entrenched in our society the radicals are, something our Government seems to have trouble recognising.

A terrible day indeed and my heart goes out to the victim and his family.

Geo

By the looks/sounds of the geezer he appears to be more of a nutter than a terrorist.

Then cull them after? Sure why not.

Agree.

Boris called it a "sickening, deluded and unforgivable act of violence".

I think that's about right.

Yes, I agree.

But assuming its terrorism before any facts about the perpetrators are known is dangerous and short sighted in the extreme.

what does a terrorist look like?

not like that

edl heading to woolwich

just what the situation calls for

:(

Why do you always want to kill everyone in these spots?

Woodsey's a pretty uncomplicated kinda guy.

Cus I'm a big meanie.   :)

Also true Andrew.

edl march in newcastle this weekend, advised the parents to stay away.

I have only just seen this .... I am so shocked omg .....

I honestly don't know what to say .

sadly means ukip probably snap get 20% increase on votes.

Savages.

Got nothing to do with religion or war or anything. Just brainwashed idiots who wouldn't be able to tell you more than a potted history of the oppression they speak so much of. And that would no doubt be wrong.

Problem is they leave everyone else suspecting everyone else, and giving the right wing loonies a platform.

Same shit, different decade, different 'cause':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22625104

I really can't find te words ....public hanging would make average joe feel better

Good idea, make him a martyr.

I don't really care about all that martyr shit when it comes to home soil. When a british soldier gets hacked to death in broad daylight in his own country I think a strong reaction is only to be expected and rightly so. The wpc who got out the car and instantly shot him had the right idea.

i have no idea what the answer is

i do no it is not the edl in any form

That day is one of my earliest memories.  My grandfather was a Labour councillor in Middlesbrough for 40 years or something ridiculous like that and he got invited to a garden party at Buckingham Palace that day.  Everyone was incredibly proud and looking forward to hearing from him that night but that turned into absolute terror when we realised that the bomb had gone off in the vicinity he was going to be in about the time he might have been expected to be walking through Hyde Park on his way there from his hotel.  When we eventually heard from him we found out he had indeed been in the park at that time but thankfully not close enough for it to have done any damage but he was definitely affected greatly by it.  He made it to Buckingham Palace too for the garden party.  Amazing that it still went ahead but I guess those were different times.

 ‏@gcunning12 6m

Express front page has 2 headlines: "Terror Fanatics Behead Soldier" upsides "Pregnant Kate is just so chirpy in canary yellow." Astounding.

If you read te Daily Express (not accusing you directly here, Mr Camel sir) you deserve all you get though.

Agree. Deprive them of the oxygen of publicity.

At the very least until we're sure it was terrorism. It may well be that they are just batshit insane, not terrorists.

Pretty sure all terrorists are batshit insane so not really mutually exclusive.....

I think its fairly obvious given how quickly this was classed as a terror attack that the perpetrators are clearly known to intelligence officials.

Must admit I spoke before seeing the video of the man talking. much clearer to me that the attack was politically motivated.

It would appear they wanted to be caught though -- I'm wondering if they'd wanted to induce suicide by police?

I'm also deeply trouble by the EDL appearing and some comments I've seen on Facebook/twitter too. You know, the usual 'I'm not racist, but....' type stuff.

I'm more likely to read the S*n than the Express, just thought it was a pretty illuminating tweet.

It absolutely is illuminating, no doubt about it. Anything that shows the express to be the absolute joke of a paper it is is welcome.

Feels likes propaganda.

Reading some of the comments on FB from society reminded me of an Oscar Wilde quote.

"One is absolutely sickened, not by the crimes that the wicked have committed, but by the punishments that the good have inflicted..."

Richard Dawkins made the point on twitter that terrorism seems to be treated as a synonym for 'motivated by religion'.

I'm not quiet sure whether I agree, but it's an interesting observation.

I was reading a lot of the reactions via Facebook and the atrocious aspect of it is, irrespective of how shocking a crime it is (and it was), how quickly people turn in to outright racists over the incident.

The media portrayal of these events is disgusting also, marginalising ethnic minorities to such an extent that more and more people find themselves sympathetic to the idiocy of such hate mongering groups like the 'EDL'.

QFT.

An eye witness describes exactly what happened.......

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=g-logo-xit&v=6Ks6uFjXMos

People seem to talk about the death penalty not being applicable because we need to question them.

The two don't need to be mutually exclusive.

In situations like this, where we are 100 per cent sure they did it, why should they be given the luxuries prison presents these days?. Especially for a crime like this. Nice bit of segregation, tv, slippers, 3 meals a day etc.

Maybe, I am equally barbaric for suggesting it, but these guys knew what they were doing, so I can live with that , no problem.

Would it matter if they were clinically insane?

To me Tal, anyone that commits murder must be insane anyway.

You somehow managed to find an answer worse than "doesn't matter". ::) I agree that these weren't the actions of right-thinking people, but to me that makes a death sentence very unappealing. Uncomfortable, actually.

You have been equally ::), by ignoring the question of how cushy these people will get life in prison......just posing another question instead...

What does the cushiness or non-cushiness of prison have to do with whether there is a death penalty? You seem to be merging two separate debates into a single argument.

Fair enough. I believe what you are saying should be an argument for penal (specifically prison) reform, rather than for capital punishment.

This isn't Abu Qatada or someone with friends in high places. I don't expect to hear in the next few days that these were high up in a terrorist cell. Prison isn't likely to be a deterrent and it isn't likely to rehabilitate in this case, but it will protect society from them, without taking lives and without making martyrs

This isn't a worthwhile debate as I don't know the facts and TBH I am upset we have been told as much as we have.

We need more love in this world.

What is this? They should have been shot dead in the streets like the dogs they are. This war on terror is the changing face of combat where troops are no longer neatly lined up on the battlefield out of sight. These guys committed an act of war against our own people in our own streets and as such were legit targets. They hacked a young soldier to death with a meat cleaver outside a primary school ffs. And the comments here are how uncomfortable people feel about the reaction or possible sentence??

If somebody attacked me in my own home I would bat them in the head. I wouldn't stand there in my jim jams telling my wife how the thought of a harsh sentence makes me feel uncomfortable.

The main concern should be keeping the public safe, not if they have a TV in their cell. You can hang them, but that achieves very little but satisfy vengeance, which shouldn't be the aim of a civilised society. Most people who commit these acts have no fear of dying, and it probably won't deter others. All debates should be focused on how we stop this from happening in the future.

I think its pretty difficult to stop random attacks like this unless something is done from within the muslim community, if indeed that is the source of this which it looks like it is for now.

I'd rather debates were focused on how the Muslim community should be outing extremist filth like this to the authorities. Whilst some of it would not be detected I have no doubt that some would, and they would be doing themselves a favour PR wise with the wider British public if they were seen to be actively doing it.

Can someone point me in the direction of the thread for this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/18/woman-police-officer-killed-manchester) please?

Ha, there are thousands of news worthy stories that don't make blonde, or even the news.

I'm surprised at how much coverage this has got on here, considering the stuff that doesn't get mentioned.

This kind of shite happens in cities all over the uk, every week, but because someone done it in the name of Allah, god or Elvis, then it suddenly becomes more important. Ridic.

i did not start the thread because i considered it more important

i had just listened to the radio interview that was pretty upsetting

how often is somebody beheaded in the uk every week?

Murdered, butchered, stabbed, shot, beheaded, all the same really. No?

Wasn't saying that's why you started the thread, but saying that the response it gets astonishes me.

yes fair point

awful things happen worldwide every minute

yeah not sure what point you thought I was trying to make but you pretty much nailed it. Just sad that seemingly reasonable individuals suddenly go frothing at the mouth when our sensationalist media get a hold of a story they feel is emotive.

I think we were thinking the same thing. I think. :)

Yeah no big deal I guess, a soldier only got his head cut off in public in front of many of onlookers and it was caught on camera, oh well next..........

A gang member being stabbed and a young innocent soldier having his head hacked off in the street are the same? Oh ok.

Didn't say it was but I did wonder where the indignation was when 2 inncocent police women were gunned down by a crazed white man?

That was all over the news as much as this is now, not our fault no-one thought to start a thread on here, not everything gets a topic. There was as much stuff written on FB and other places I go where this sort of stuff gets discussed.

What does it matter?

The Jimmy Saville thread got 3x the indignation on Blonde.

When our soldiers are being attacked in britain for being british I have no inclination to compare and contrast differing levels of media coverage to try and prove some point. 

If yesterday's incident had been an atheist caucasian attacking a student it probably wouldn't have even made the news.

m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=KG2Xxl3UVcY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKG2Xxl3UVcY (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=KG2Xxl3UVcY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKG2Xxl3UVcY)

That link above is disgusting, yet it got nowhere near the same media coverage. He'll no doubt only serve 7 years. That's justice for you. Nobody crying out to 'kill that bastard'. Yet if he'd been black...

Bollocks, this one was all over the news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-18972079

LOL at people suggesting that the nutcase white guy shooting the police officers wasn't all over the news.

2 black guys try to chop somebody's head off outside a school in broad daylight and people aren't allowed to discuss it as Pinchop says we must be being racist.

What sort of a world do we live in now?

"Feels likes propaganda."

I missed this beauty from Pinchop.

I imagine he thinks 911 was staged by the US so they could go after oil?

There is one obvious way of course.

I don't think we would be allowed to do that boss  ;whistle;  ;D

Yeah just read my post and can understand why you'd think that, didn't mean it to come across that way. Nevermind, as you we're.

I dont think its racism that causes more indignation in cases like this. Its just that this kind of attack is further outside our frame of reference than many equally sick happenings. Shooting up schools, man murders child and these kinds of things are more regular events so we become a little desensitised. This reminds me of when a couple of soldiers were hauled out of a car in NI and murdered. Seemed much more shocking to me than any number of bombs and shootings.

Can someone define "terrorism" please.

I always thought is was planned acts of violence by organisations planned and executed to cause fear and unrest in a population in order to change the policies of an enemy government.

What I didn't think it was: two random nutters killing a a random stranger however horrifying and disgusting that is.

Just because the murderer rambled on about random political and religious stuff in an attempt to justify his act doesn't make it terrorism.

Totally agree. There are certain incidents that are so unbelievable/shocking that it stays with you for a very long time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIP-aVfw13w

Never ever forget that.

Yes. I think these guys should suffer the death penalty. Not for revenge, but to make absolutely sure they never do it again, and to save us the cost of imprisoning them for the next 40 /50 years.

Do I think they should be killed without trial because there is no doubt that they did it? No, of course not.

Fair trials are not there to convict the guilty, they are there to protect the innocent. Ergo guilt, or the evidence of it, must be tested no matter how apparently cut and dried it may seem, otherwise the step between accusation and conviction becomes smaller and smaller until eventually, it disappears altogether.

quite so.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=terrorism#seen

Just reporting on BBC that these guys were known to the security services.

Tom ....great post my friend
I was trying to find these words and then you posted
Thanks


What he said ⬆

This! Government and media led fear!

Ive been saying it for years, and ill make it my only point in this thread (as I dont indulge in or digest mainstream media where ever possible),...........

If we really had something to fear, we the general public would be last to know about it!

Take your pick on any of the following:

Dangerous Dogs
Peadophillia
"Terrorism"
Football Violence
Weapons of mass Destruction


We are fed what the powers at large want us to be fed to fit their existing agenda. Are dogs not Dangerous anymore? Is there no violence at football anymore? What about abroad?

Take the word terrorism and islam(islamic/islamist etc) out of all of your news reports tonight, and see what you are left with.

Clearly this is a terrible event, but lets take it for what it is

It seems to me that's exactly what has happened here.

Given that at least one of them was not even a Muslim just a few years ago would it not be wise to undo the brain washing he has clearly fallen victim to rather than just kill him?

Quite simply

NO

On the complete flip side there are some amazing people in the world for good reasons

http://www.upworthy.com/this-kid-just-died-what-he-left-behind-is-wondtacular-rip?g=7&fb_source=timeline&ref=profile#_=_

Some of you might have read about it, seen it. 20min video, worth watching, puts life in perspective for sure, inspirational stuff

Can either of you kill him then.  I don't want to and I wouldn't like to be in the position to ask another person to kill.

No worries I'll do it  ;snoopy'sguns;  ;nana;

100% easy ....(in this instance)
🔫

It was a rhetorical question obviously.

Yeah I know, I was just being a cheeky twat  ;)

From the woman who talked to the murderer while he waited for the police to arrive:

"I was thinking, 'You're a madman. Why are you doing that for?'"

Really, I would be very very surprised if it turns out these guys are members of a terrorist organisation.

Two random nutters, not a threat to UK at all.

Lock them up in a secure hospital.

for sure. good vid.

Completely agree they are nutters, but I don't think they have done this because they were bored one afternoon.
Personally I think this has been planned by a man in a mosque who recruits said nutters, brainwashes and trains them to believe what they are doing is 100% the right thing to do.
That is what makes this a terrorist threat, no doubt the government can link these two back to a person who has links to extremist cells in London and abroad.

Or maybe i just read too many books.....

Random or not these two were known to the security services.

Going back to Keiths question about defining terrorism I think this is absolutely terrorism.  Terrorism is less about the actual acts themselves as about affecting the whole population psychologically and affecting the freedom they feel to go about their lives in the usual way.  The IRA's great success was that at one point in their campaign almost everybody in England had had their daily routine affected by a bomb scare even if not by a bomb directly.  Similarly now there will be parents with kids that were planning on going to university in London this year that now don't want them to go because there are "terrorist nutters roaming the streets".  I consider myself to be a very rational person but not long after 7/7 I was on the tube and a couple of Asian kids got on carrying big backpacks and it made me nervous.  It is statistically illogical to be that way but that is the point of terror.  The actual impact of their crimes goes far beyond that of their direct victims they affect the entire population.

Oh snap

http://news.sky.com/story/1094560/woolwich-suspects-known-to-security-services

These two are angry young men, lashing out against some perceived injustice.

These two guys
Brevik fella in Norway
EDL twats
The guy in America who shot up the cinema showing the Batman film.

A lot of men get riled up by some aspect of the modern world - we've seen a few of us here getting angry and wanting to lash out. All it takes is for a very small number of these to have some degree of sociopathy and they'll do some retarded, fucked up shit.

By that definition Stu, the Yorkshire Ripper and Steve Wright were terrorists too, because thye absolutely changed the way women acted while they were on the loose.

This.

I think the point is one of intent.  The Yorkshire Ripper and Steve Wright certainly terrorised their communities but that wasn't their motivation or intent it was a by product of their actions.  Terrorists act with the intention of creating terror with their acts.  It is, in many ways, more important than the actual act to them.

Oh lovely, he lived 5 minutes away from me.

http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/LIVE-Woolwich-murderer-Michael-Adebolajo-s/story-19068665-detail/story.html#axzz2U15EM1AG

the edl are definitely not the same as brevik, these 2 from yesterday and the batman guy.

Lee Rigby RIP

25 year old lad with 2 kids.

(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq167/Andr4w/soldier_zpsdfef95f7.jpg)

Thoughts and prayers with his family
Xx

Isn't it one child who's two? So sad. RIP

I don't think these two nutters had a political or ideological agenda either.

I think they are using it as an excuse to justify an act of random and appalling violence.

Maybe they are using Islam to justify their violence, but if they shout Allah Akbar, spout the rhetoric about the West interfering in their lands and use beheading as there calling card, then it isn't unreasonable to assume they have an ideological agenda too. 

The geezer is quite clearly English.

So England is his land.

Clearly, and I realise that, but that didn't stop him saying that in the speech to camera.

He also talked about us attacking Muslim countries, so in his head we are attacking his (Muslim) land.  I don't think he can be talking of the land of his forebears either, as that is Nigeria.

 

He might be as a chunk of Nigeria is Islamic, and these guys often refer to any muslim land as 'their lands'.

I realise that too, and there are nasty things happening there.  But the things that are happening there are mainly internal to Nigeria whereas the West has attacked Iraq and Afganistan.  He was specific on Afganistan in the video too.

They deffo lump muslim land together mate, heard it many times. An attack on one is an attack on all and all that bollocks.

Agreed, but I just don't think he is talking of us attacking Nigeria, when he talks of his land, it seems likely it is the Muslim land he is referring to as I said above.

ok sorry we are agreeing

Recently bought 'radical' a book by maajid nawaz, who has been on newsnight a bit recently, former radicalised recruiter for some pretty intense badpeople. Very interesting hearing his thoughts rather than the moronic mps/press who have no insight into the religion, or any of the actions that lead to these attitudes.


highly recommend it if it takes your interest.

Wasn't he a Christian until a few years ago (after he came to the UK)?  I've not watched the videos, but didn't he also shout out "and eye for an eye" (or something similar) so was quoting the bible rather than the Koran - something I would have thought a fundamentalist Muslim shouldn't do (as they will obviously believe that the Koran is the only correct religious book). 

Sounds like he was a disturbed individual looking for a 'cause' through which he could dish out his evil tendencies. Some evil 'cleric' has helped guide him on this route to carrying out such a terrible act.  Don't see him getting out of prison for quite a while (if ever) - and quite rightly.  Hopefully, the others involved can also be locked up.

As for those calling for the death penalty for an act of terrorism, you might want to speak to the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six who were all found guilty beyond reasonable doubt for murdering people with acts of terrorism - only for them to subsequently be shown to be innocent of these crimes.  15 years in prison is bad enough for a crime you didn't commit, but at least they hadn't been executed for a crime they hadn't committed. 

You're late  ;snoopy'sguns;  :D

Think you're all overanalysing these guy's actions.

They're just the Muslim equivalent of the EDL - unhinged pricks with incoherent thought processes used to justify dickish actions.

And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=45

Practically the same book ;)

Aha, cool. Not up to speed with my Koran.

Eh? Wtf is up with you tonight, you never give up that easily  :D

Pretty sure the Bible predates the Koran - he'll be back :-)

You make a compelling case, i concede.

Can't understand the people talking to them or filming them. Surely there is the possibility that someone who has just knifed a stranger to death and mutilated them might become, you know, a bit violent and maybe do it again.

And twenty minutes for the police to arrive? That's quite a long time for those guys to be left ruling the street.

It would be, it was 9 mins from when someone finally called them.

That is scary - eveyone else assumed that someone else had called I guess??
I was at the Black Museum in Scotland Yard many years ago and they had pictures of the Brixton riots that were taken but not published due to concerns over public outcry and decency - the one I remember most was the one of PC Blakelock's headless body and then the protestors with his head on a stick taunting the police with it. Today that would have been published all over the internet - perhaps with a warning - but still out there. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the casualness that we now stand there and film things, detached from whats actually happening.

How is what these people did different to the 10´s of thousands of people killed in Afghanistan and Iraq? Totally legitimate military target, it´s the same war, they fought back.

This is the thing that mystified me.  If I had just seen a guy chop someones head off I sure as hell wouldnt be hanging around chatting to them or taking their pictures.  I would assume they were seriously deranged and likely to do something equally deranged again at any moment and get the hell out of there.

I was taking the piss out of Boshi with that comment just for banter purposes as we do on here.

Your need to tell me exactly what your on about just so I understand.

We kill enormous numbers of people all over the world, on their doorstep.Then we go crazy when the same is revisited. I´m devastated by what happened, it´s horrendous and uspets me and those people close to me but we killed 100,000´s of people´s in their country´s so please be reasonable.

 ;scarymoment; don't think this is going to end well.

 Whether we like it or not, kukushkin makes a very valid point.

And even though they had plenty of time and opportunity they didn't go after any members of the public.

Still think they were nutters though.

That we killed hundreds of thousands of people in Britain?

They probably are. But not in the conventional way.

That's not what he said, doobs.

Link to some footage of the two attackers getting shot by the police. Obv disturbing as a warning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVUhSCwYSMA

Isnt this the problem though.  The only way we can justify such a horrible act is to say they are crazy.  It is beyond our comprehension but if you live in Afghanistan or, particularly Iraq (and I know these guys hadnt but they identify strongly with those people), then you have seen this kind of violence on a daily basis but perpetrated by allied forces.  Why should we be repulsed by it but they shouldnt be?  Why should we be willing to act on horrific unjustifiable violence and they be expected to just stand by and not fight back?

I'm just gonna dip out right here because its gonna get out of hand if I say what I really think...... :-X

Why not 'we'?

I'm still amazed by the old lady walking past as the guy is ranting.


she's like, I live in south london this is life brah. carry on.


utterly insane.

I have no argument with the Afghan people, soldiers are certainly not currently defending my freedom.

They are fighting an unwinnable war on behalf of misguided politicians.

Ha been wanting to say it for a while now....

We are at 'war' thankfully for us this war has been taking place thousands of miles away far out of sight. Many thousands of enemy soldiers have been killed, we have lost over 400 in Afghanistan. Yesterday this war was brought a lot closer to home, a member of the armed services was singled out and killed. This is no doubt a tragedy, the manner in which it happened is appalling, the reality of what we are fortunate to not have to see was realised for a lot of people yesterday.

My point i guess though is that if what we call over there is a war, and justified, then so this must be as well, no?

+1

I've been close to posting similar both now and in the past but I'm neither brave enough to say it nor intelligent enough to argue the point.

If he meant we as in we as a country then it's a fact.

Yeah I guess we should just give up, root for the other team and let them crack on them.......

Why do we have to pick a team based on what our politicians want or the country we happened to be born in?  Is it not perfectly valid to believe that both sides are completely wrong and prolonging a conflict that has no basis in anything?  It is this level of tribalism that gets us into trouble in the first place.

I know there are times when I need to keep by big gob shut or its gonna kick off, this is one of those times  :-X  :D

I have no interest in a slanging match but I would genuinely be interested....

uncut


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=515920825122146

If you carry the logic through that this is an act of aggression as part of an active war then do you hold the two men as POWs or do you have a trial treating them as spys?  From what I remember one definition of a spy is a person giving information of their country and committing acts in their country for the benefit of another.  If you consider them the later then I believe it could end with the firing squad.  However I am thoroughly against the death penalty.  (Also against the present wars in the Middle East).  There is a chance to find out the motivation of these men and discover how they were 'radicalised.'  If we could use this information in the future to prevent people being easily manipulated by those pulling the strings (in a variety of organisations, not just extremists or the like) then surely some good can come out of this tragedy.

The people of Afghanistan fighting allied forces do stuff like burying thousands of land mines to blow our lads to pieces, or they wear a suicide jacket and walk into a group of soldiers. This is the kinda stuff they do to protect their home from invading soldiers. By contrast we take invading soldiers into care and assess their mental condition before setting them up in some cushy institution for the rest of their days at the cost of millions of pounds. We make excuses for them by saying it's not their fault and they must be brainwashed. And we bring up the b'ham six and guildford four to show how the guy we just filmed hacking off a head might not be guilty. 

I have never agreed with capital punishment but don't get why we need to apply society rules to war. This is our home and these guys should've been fucked up where they stood. Aside from anything else we could spend the money on hospitals.

Pretty sure by contrast we drop bombs/use drones that take out civilians as well as soldiers

Yeah agree, sadly our foreign policy sucks.

What strikes me is how cold-hearted and aggro we can be in somebody else's backyard but become all liberal and compassionate when it kicks off in ours.

i'm not quite sure what exactly you'd refer to as compassionate and liberal.

lots of the commenting I've seen in the aftermath has been nothing but illiberal and vindictive.

Talking about government policy rather than opinions on FB/twitter.

These two guys had known links to Anjem Choudary who preaches hate against us. Yet not only do we allow him to live at liberty in our country we ship him £25k in benefits every year for the pleasure. It seems kinda liberal not only to allow a citizen to influence terror attacks upon us but to actually finance it aswell. We allow people to stand in Wotton Bassett booing and jeering as the bodies of our soldiers are brought home with signs saying burn in hell. Seems weird that people have the freedom of speech to do that but the speaker's wife can't say "innocent face" without uproar and prosecution. We aren't allowed to deport Abu Qatada because other countries say so. We must adhere to human rights at every turn. Try doing any of that shit in downtown Kabul and see what happens. I can see why support for UKIP is growing.

Everyone is on edge now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22658979 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22658979) It's not too often you get Typhoons scrambled to escort civvie airliners.

Apparently the pilot was concerned about an unruly passenger, just so happens the aircraft was coming from Pakistan.

I live on an RAF Camp and they had extra armed guards and vehicle patrols out yesterday, hoping it's just a case of being overly cautious.

Typhoons no, RAF jets sure.

How can there be a false alarm over a man wielding an axe in London Bridge station?

And that is exactly what are troops are fighting for a lot of the time.

What do you think about that Kin? If we consider the loss of innocent life, the reprisal terror attacks, and the fact we don't have any money, is there any value in fighting for free speech in far away lands?

To be honest, if our young men and women were fighting and dying for the freedom of people across the world then it's probably a just reason to consider war.

However, when people were being massacred in Sierra Leone, Congo, Mali, Somalia, Rwanda, Ethiopia, and many others - our governments were less interested in getting involved. So maybe a desire to liberate and protect oppressed people isn't actually the reason for our involvement.

That's my problem with war. It's those in charge who decide where and who we will fight, based on whatever agenda they want to serve; whilst it's the brave people of the armed forces who have to actually do the killing and dying. If any radical islamists wanted to act against the wars they think are wrong, then their targets should surely be the politicians and leaders, not off-duty soldiers. But this just remphasises that this was the act of sick, deluded individuals. Just like those that blew up and killed more than 20 in Niger only a few days ago.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Sierraleone/forces.html

Yeah, Sierra Leone shouldn't have been included in that list. It was actually an example of a relatively successful intervention.

This question was put to David Cameron recently and he said Britain didn't have the resources to intervene everywhere but we would continue to help out where we could. But I wonder if that stance is really worth it these days? Part of the reason we went to Afghanistan was to disrupt terror training cells so I supported it because that is the new style home defence. But the terror camps just fcked off to Somalia or wherever and we were left fighting for free speech and training the army. I don't know why that's our job and whether the price is worth it. What if the taliban just come back after we go? Back to square one. If we possessed a lot of the world's wealth I could maybe understand us fighting for principles in foreign places and luxuries for foreign peoples, but as we're skint it seems we're operating above our station and just inviting trouble to our shores.

Think that the truth is that we're often fighting to ensure lucrative trade contracts and the like for the future. So it's probably considered as an investment.

As for our 'duty' to act as global police, I think the UN has a very important role. The richer and strongest in terms of numbers and military technology are probably obliged to do their bit. Morally, I think the countries who can provide troops, money and other 'stuff' should be involved in protecting people who are subject to oppressive regimes. The question is who decides when to intervene and what action to take? Look at the mess in Syria, and the question of other countries intervening. 

We can all see how instability and domestic issues can affect other countries, including the UK. One obvious direct result of civil war is an influx of refugees coming to the UK and other 'safe' countries. Then long term sees a country in economic strife and people looking to move to the UK simply for a better life with more opportunities for them and their families.

it's not like 'we' the west/wealthier countries give actual freedom or do most stuff above board anyway. it's just a slightly diff kind of oppression. obv may well be better than what they are struggling under but still seems pretty ridic to feel like white knights when we are so selective and only get involved when there is a financial incentive.



annoyed me no end all the people saying the security services should have done more, how on earth can you stop an English person taking a knife from the kitchen and doing something ridic?  yet when we got information from the security services about a certain man in a hole having no naughty stuff we ignored them because we know best.... so ridic tilting.

Going to have to some pretty successful mines with large Western holdings to get all that money we have pissed away back?

Surely you'd just buy mining interests somewhere a bit easier if you want to make a buck? 

Whilst there may be some financial incentive somewhere down the line, there is also a lot of truth in us getting involved there because the situation there was affecting us?  And we really can't intervene in that scale everywhere that needs it even if you really would like to in an ideal World.  Ofc I am not even going to begin to defend the Iraq war.  FWIW Somalia is Ava's example, the US did intervene, and I can't see much long term benefit right now.

I don't think it is easy making these choices, we didn't cop for too much condemnation for the Libyan involvement, but if we did Syria too, are we likely to get a good result?

Easy to sit down now and say you didn't want to do it like that Harry Enfield style.

It's spreading...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/25/us-france-stabbing-idUSBRE94O09420130525

will we see an increase in Muslims grassing up other radical behaviour from muslims they might know?

Starting to look like I was totally wrong about them just being random nutters.

The latest stuff I've been reading is much more disturbing.

Why don't extremists just fuck off?

This needs to happen far more than it does now, they should be seen to be doing it., I won't hold my breath though...

Yes please. it's in the interest of the Muslim community to out these pricks, if they don't it only going to end up one way, and that is with a massive revolt against the Muslim community. It may not happen for 10, 20 or 50 years but it will happen at some point unless they get their house in order.

Because terrorist Muslims make their plans and identities known to all other Muslims?

I am not sure you'd even notice if they did. 

This has clearly happened in the past and is the reason some people are known to authorities/ some bomb threats are foiled etc

I have never really understood this argument about how the Muslim community should be self policing.  As far as I can remember that was never an argument put forward about the Northern Irish Catholic community and certainly nobody says the Christian community needs to "out these pricks" about the guys shooting abortion doctors.    I dont see why moderate, peace loving Muslims should be expected to know the first thing about what extremists are up to.  It just seems a bit bizarre to me.

these are different times we live in, the dynamics of terrorists and radicals from any group work alot differently from 20 years ago. I also don't think we have a similar situation to where people are abs shit scared of speaking out against the Muslim faith, this imo has lead to some loony tunes not being departed years ago and the real problem festering under the service.

Any other religion seems to be able to take being scrutinised and made fun of, I can't recall the amount of ridicule the Pope gets without no one single act of violence as a result of it..have you?

So to say that the Muslims should not be self policing is ridiculous given the way to reacts to any form of "outside" interfering. It is just not this but I feel the way MPs are scared of speaking out against Asian grooming that's so prevalent and seemingly acceptable in given cultures, unless this country starts not giving a fuck about upsetting people/groups this will continue and more soldiers will be killed.

Also cutting the budget in half really didn't help the intelleigence finding on such matters ...

I tend to agree that we are way too sensitive to so called cultural concerns although I couldn't help but smile at the quote above.  I guess you have never been out for a night in Glasgow on the evening of an auld firm game or a trip to Belfast in the 1980's?

i am talking about now and take away football you simply do not get christians kicking off when someone calls Jesus a made up person....

In the aftermath of this incident I noticed how every muslim group were quick to condemn the atrocity and how members of the nigerian community marched through woolwich to show solidarity. I was really pleased to see that. These terrorists look to divide so it really warmed my heart to see people coming together. 

Pretty sure some there will be some known in the community for having hard line opinions and try to spread the word to others. For these 2 guys that got recruited I'm sure there will have been others that would have said no to the recruiters. They should be outing these people, no 2 ways about it.

So what you're saying is that if the tiny minority among hundreds of millions of Muslims don't speak out there will be a massive revolt against the rest of the entire innocent community?

It would not surprise me in the least if this sort of stuff becomes a regular occurrence, probably not any time soon, but it will happen.

What, the murdering fanatics killing off duty soldiers or the racists revolting against the innocent?

That won't be up to me, that will be up to the pissed off people who decide to take a stand. Besides I didn't think Muslims were a race...

Woodsey is right that a small % of the population will hate on muslims, but that still represents millions of people. If this type of thing continues more will be influenced to become radical. It's fair to say muslims have had a rough ride lately and there's a lot of negative association, therefore anything muslims can do to build bridges and get positive PR is worth doing isn't it? Think the nigerian group walking through woolwich bearing flowers and messages of support was well worth doing.

I was talking talking about all extremists, not just Muslim ones.

A mosque in MK was petrol bombed yesterday.

The people who did that can fuck off as well.

I agree with you, I'm just saying that this is going to happen more and more thats all, it's inevitable if these sorts of things become more frequent.

Isn't that the point though?  They won't become more frequent because it is something that a tiny minority do.

Well lets hope that, but you never know, there wouldn't be so many people working on this issue if they weren't worried.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22671619

I just find that a bit bizarre.  Not to trivialise this case but what exactly can 500 officers be working on on this case?  We know who has done it and largely why.  Obvviously there must be some work done to ensure they werent part of a group or whatever but 500 officers seems massively excessive especially give recent cuts.  I can't imagine Theresa May has decided to reverse the cuts in budget to pay for it so they must be being diverted from working on crimes that affect Londoners on a daily basis.

twitter trending and sky news reporting another incident yards from the floral tributes.

http://news.sky.com/story/1095844/sky-sources-man-stabbed-in-woolwich

Jeez, so ridic.

Creating fear through media much?

 I wish people would wake up to this! I bought a news paper for the first time in years today and just laughed at what people are asked to take in and the words and phrasing used!

It's Woolwich, not that ridic

Probably wouldn't have made the news any other week of the year.

Has there ever been a more disgusting and incompetent politician than Theresa May to hold the office of Home Secretary? 

Instead of taking responsibility for the security forces inaction over an individual who was known to them she decides to bleat about recording everything on the internet again (at a cost of 100s of millions), despite this being irrelevant to this incident and her having already been told by parliament to stuff the idea up her arse.

Not referring to Mrs May specifically, but the bill you refer to is wanted by the security services, wanted by the Home Secretary (and past Labour Home secs such as Alan Johnson) but the coalition partner refuses to countenance it

Just because the security services apparently want something, doesn't mean it is cost effective or that it doesn't impinge on our freedom.

The main point is that it is completely irrelevant to the incident.  The security forces knew all about this radical and didn't stop them.

At last, the Lib Dems actually do something right as part of the coalition.

It's quite unfair to single out Theresa May in what is a vast wasteland of political ineptitude. Worryingly I can't think of a single politician who inspires me. Although I do think Boris Johnson is amusing.

+1


they're all inept twats.


what is decision making lolz.

well someone cut the intelligence budget from £60m to £33m that deals with this type of thing...i guess they do put a price on lives

Yes that is the only possible reason  ::)

Obviously there is a price on life if you are a government

Or the government is skint and has to make cuts, its one or the other......

It's obviously distasteful but when you get to a larger scale there is and always has been a price on lives. There's no other way to go about it. Not putting literally every penny everyone earns in this country back into healthcare is also putting a price on lives.

There's also the argument (which I subscribe to) that I don't really want my tax money spent on surveillance. What always happens around these things is that the hawks use it to justify a) massively increased expenditure on defence and b) reduced personal freedom for everyday citizens, under the auspices of trying to stop something that could have best been avoided in the first place by not going to war and riling up half the muslim population of the country who don't need much of a touchpaper in the first place.

When we first went to war I was very for it. I thought we were doing it for the wrong reasons but that the outcome was likely to be a good one and that the ends justified the means. In my adult life I've switched wings in a big way. Blair cosied up to Bush and we sent people over when we shouldn't have done; so what are we getting in return (other than dodgy extradition treaties) is a reduction in our need to spend ridiculous amounts of money, where little is available, on new fighter planes, submarines, trident missiles, etc etc.

My two pence.

But Blair was right to send troops into Sierra Leone, right?

Used to work with the wife of the Head of Terrorist police for Yorkshire (he has retired some 5 years now) and the stories he would tell me were really shocking. The amount of shit they know and have to keep tabs on was on a huge scale. He feared they simply did not have the resources to keep the country safe anymore....remember this is a very senior terrorist policeman.