blonde poker forum

PokerStars Hand #106463112027: Tournament #807535165, $200+$15 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (600/1200)
9-max Seat #6 is the button

Seat 1:UTG+1 (22267 in chips)
Seat 2: MP (50181 in chips)
Seat 3: MP+1 (35190 in chips)
Seat 4: HJ (18960 in chips)
Seat 5: CO (56213 in chips)
Seat 6: Str8$$$Homey (24617 in chips)
Seat 7: Hero (29588 in chips)
Seat 8: BB (28942 in chips)
Seat 9: UTG (65675 in chips)
UTG+1: posts the ante 120
MP: posts the ante 120
MP+1: posts the ante 120
HJ: posts the ante 120
CO: posts the ante 120
Str8$$$Homey: posts the ante 120
Hero: posts the ante 120
BB: posts the ante 120
UTG: posts the ante 120
Hero: posts small blind 600
BB: posts big blind 1200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero  Aspades Td
UTG: folds
UTG+1: folds
MP: folds
MP+1: folds
HJ: folds
CO: folds
Str8$$$Homey: raises 1200 to 2400
Hero: raises 1200 to 3600
BB: folds
Str8$$$Homey: calls 1200
*** FLOP ***  Kd  7d 3s
Hero: bets 3210
Str8$$$Homey: calls 3210
*** TURN ***  3h
Hero: checks
Str8$$$Homey: bets 17687 and is all-in
Hero: ?


I intended to go all in preflop but misclicked. I left in villains name due to him being a good reg.

How would you proceed from here?

Fold, what worse hands can you expect him to turnover??

Fold

Lol

Lololol trolls gna troll. I didn't wanna post about it yesterday, but if he has k4cc maybe he has q4ss!

So you think he floats flop with bare backdoor flush draw and then overbet jams the turn with no pair no draw on the biggest brick there is?

FWIW I wouldn't like to just shove all in pre in this spot think you can go like 4600 and go from there as it allows you to see if the players behind wake up with a hand. As played fold turn

I'm not actually trying to troll. I want to get some feedback on hands like this. Judging by markup that is charged and apparent ease that %'s fly out I assume he is a good player. In my eyes, betting flop and check calling turn is about as bad as it gets. If it is an ok/good play, I'd like to know why.

I thought it was spades otf sorry. Q4dd then.. I'm not saying I'd call btw.

what would you do pleno? do you not think he would just raise and call or just jam the flop with a flush draw?

OP took the liberty in posting this hand, I am the hero.

FWIW I think the hand is played poorly given the mis-click. I think he usually jams all flush draws on the flop and all 45 46 56s type hands as we are only 20bb effective. Obviously don't fold if he jams the flop as he shouldn't play a king like that. Unfortunately I am not always on my A game, I wish I was!

I have an idea who OP is, I tried to do a search online and the only thing that came up was him posting on a teen forum worrying about his penis size.

As for posting anonymously and moaning about mark-ups, good job. I have a sharkscope graph that has a nice trend in the upwards direction, I'm trust worthy and I've had my fair share of binks and deep runs. I also work hard and take part in community discussion.

Can you show me where I have said you don't deserve the markup?

Like I said, if this hand has been played well/fine, I would just like an explanation as I am obviously a shit player so don't understand..

Someone else commented on it and you just dismissed them. So you obviously have a reasoning behind it and I would just like to know what it is.... You don't have to share it if you don't want which is why I posted it as if I was the hero so other good players could give their feedback

Like how you've played it (except for misclick obv). Only thing i'd say is that you have to level him correctly. When a good played makes his hand look like a draw or a spew they've actually got it.

That is my point The Squid. He's a good player, he's not going to just jam pot on the brickiest ever turn card with no pair no draw. So what is it you think you can beat??

I don't really want to turn this onto a discussion about markup but while we are at it I did just OPR you. Since 2007 you have never had an roi of above 30%, yet you routinely sell at markup. Do you think this offers investors good value? Furthermore, what % roi do you think is necessary to make a living

Nice misclick.

I didn't really want to reply to the troll, but I wouldn't want any investors to think that buying a piece of me is a bad idea although I think most people who do invest in me wouldn't be fooled by a troll anyway.

According to sharkscope since April (my stats were reset here because of a long term staking deal and is realistically when I started putting in mad volume) I have a 46.3% ROI at scheduled tournaments with $32.75 ABI over 3793 games. I won't reset my stats for the foreseeable future because I'm actually embarrassed how good I ran! It would double the ABI and probably push the ROI to around an unattainable 100% mark.

I have since apologised to paulhouk for my reply to his comment in my staking thread, I had my worst poker day this year and was generally having just a rotten day. It's not like me to make a comment like that and I certainly consider your anonymous posting to be extremely cheap as well as trying to make me look bad. I am sure you are some kind of person that crushes the games given you know that the hand I played is fairly laughable and I could care less, whilst I'm trying to be a better poker player you can go and be a better person, please.

The way you are defending yourself is actually the most laughable thing. The fact you can't do it without attacking me suggests you know you are in the wrong, but hey, free world and all.

You said check OPR. So I did.

2007 55 games $232 abi -64% roi
2008 89 games $189 abi 42% roi
2009 69 games $217 abi -3% roi
2010 133 games $183 abi 26% roi
2011 628 games $144 abi 30% roi
2012 1062 games $93 abi 28% roi
2013 5918 games $26 abi 14% roi

All with pretty low ABI.

Yet I notice you still don't want to justify the markup you charge (1.3) even though in the last 6 years you have only once had a higher roi on that. Where you were in profit for the grand total of $7095.

I'm sure you are now going to tell me how OPR is wrong or give some other filtered graph from the third sunday of every month where you have your cocopops for breakfast and actually obtain a 50% roi on said day.

nicely nuanced understanding of mtt variance sir, what's a sample size lolz

the fact he didn't just post 'lol bellends' you should consider yourself lucky.

So when someone makes a modest roi over 6 years it is just MTT variance, but if they have a high roi over 6 months they 'crush the game'?

why ask for help then post like a bell?


roi is one figure. so is abi, so is field size, so is the year they were played.


looking at just one gives a pathetically skewed impression.


you can easily whack up a player with a massive roi over a tiny sample whos joke bad. or you could whack up a confirmed sicko with a small or negative roi over a med sample. taking definitive opinions from numbers that are so hard to converge is foolish.


as dan pointed out part of staking (sending money to randoms on the internet with no paperwork or guarantors for them to gamble with and hopefully return any winnings) requires a high level of trust not only in their ability to reg and sit there not punting but to also then be reliable. I personally think those factors are more important in the markup discussion that some arbitrary figure (that with the constantly evolving state of the games is essentially void the second you read it).


I also fking hate this spot in OP as you have a hand you were willing to get in pre range vs range and were happy with but then you see a frop and have to bin your equity a bunch of times and it's ewwwww and very often it can lead you to be like lol I aint folding u fker.

I'm struggling to see how I've posted like a bell. I posted it and just getting called a troll and a horrible human... I did genuinely just want to understand how playing the hand like this was good

Dan spews after misclick in one hand therefore he must not be a good enough player to charge mark-up

Good logic there :)up

yes you posted a hh from someone elses perspective to try and essentially insult them/make them look bad, then also criticised their markups whilst providing vapid reasoning for why you are correct.


rather than continue to play the troll you pretend to want to be educated/learn and yet throw helpful pointers back in our face with nothing to back up your opinions.


I am surprised you got any kind of fair response at all. once you suggest you want to learn then being like lol 4 mtts in 1984 omg -22% roi YOU LOSER shows your lack of understanding of the format and how rois look over differing samples for different players.



graphs tho

ROI THO

(http://i.imgur.com/n4n18.png)

we went allin preflop mentally, the guys just only finding that out now on the turn :p

:D

For transparency I charged 1.1945 on the package. Maybe a couple of years ago without a better understanding of markups I would have charged 1.3 mind.

You're right I shouldn't of just posted that from OPR as it's not a true reflection.

Also quite interesting that the only year that any real volume was played over a period where Dan said he ran exceptional, shows a 14% roi at $26abi. So I guess I still struggle to see how 1.3 in a $215 can be warranted... I get that he's trust worthy, I'm sure a lot of people are. I still don't understand why trust matters when they are going to lose you your money?!?

I wasn't actually picking out his markup at the start. I was simply saying the hand was something I don't understand, presumably because he sells at this markup he is a lot better then me and by the the reaction he had to someone else questioning the hand I just wanted to (still do) understand the reasoning behind the play...

Apologies. 1.3 on this tournament

That's one of the orbs for individual mark ups, because you say you understand them but it allows people to come and say wtf how do you mark the warmup exactly the same as the million when the million is b clearly way way softer. Maybe do the markups yourself and then just say I'm charging an avg mu of x fr this package.

high level understanding though.......


so someone with a -4million ROI never binks a bunch of allins and shows some kind of a return?


if someone has a + 4million ROI but also is a compulsive thief and high end art buyer have we made a good investment, cos we sure are going to see any of our winnings.




the whole point with ROI and mtts is the variance is a joke.

a 9 man sng is one thing but a 4k runner mtt where the 20th place gets the bowl and the first place gets 200x the buyin back skews the roi somewhat. there are so many ways in which variance can affect you in an mtt that it really is foolish to consider ROI as the only thing to be looked at.


the number of times that you having slightly different results in a handful of allins deep in an mtt that can completely skew your roi is insane.


if you wanted to look at opr at least include the sample size, abi etc with it not just omglolz negatives.



the whole markup debate is moronic to be had if people don't understand the basics of roi and mtt variance.


kewl story to be 'guessing' he's trustworthy though, I guess you're not a bellend.

<3  orbs

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Glass_Orb_-_Winter_Haven_Outdoor_Sculptures.jpg)

I have included the abi and sample size...........

So if the variance is so large and you need to play so many mtt's to have any understanding, why is he charging any markup at all?

Fwiw I would rather buy a % in someone who had a less then perfect reputation but a 70% roi at 1.3 then someone who so far has only proven to beat $30 comps with an roi of 14%..........

when I initially read your post it was just dates and negative numbers....


lots of people charge markup, many of them utter shitters, you should be asking why people buy not why people sell.....


I would rather buy in someone with a -10% roi who was trustworthy than some punter who has won some flips already but is likely to snort the winnings.

when I ask someone for help I tend to listen rather than think they are wrong if I don't agree with them. but w/e to each his own.

Ahh I edited soon after so you must have read it before so.

I promise you I am listening, I am just trying to offer an alternative view.

 rotflmfao

In my opinion the key thing to notice is someone's ROI overs such a large sample size means they are grinding the hell out of the midweeks. Anyone who has a clue about online MTT's knows that with the Sunday fields (both in size and makeup of rec players) means that a 20% midweek ROI is a certain buy at 1.3 on a Sunday.

Not to mention in Dan's case he has won a shit ton of money on other sites in MTT's

Pretty tilted i got used to troll you Dan, but lets be honest, the call is pretty shit :) xx

your view is valid but also a regularly put forth misunderstanding.


It's very hard to explain to someone you have 55% of the 200bb in the pot when you get it in pre with QQ vs AK and lose and have to reload another 100bb......


it also turns out that in mtts some people are just alot better at allins during their sample size than others.


if you're making an investment, especially a high variance small winrate one the concept of the person not being trustworthy is insane, if they are a 20% winner but theres a 50% chance of the money going into pit games before you even know the result you sure have made a profitable investment.


You also have to consider the event for the markup, would I rather buy in someone at 1.3 in the Wednesday 44$ 500 runner cap or the sunday million. less variance in the first because less runners, yet the ROI achievable is much less AND the standard of opponents will be tougher due to less sat qualifiers and the money meaning less to people. Good players edges are in play throughout all stages of a tournament, during the later stages the good players even have edges on the mediocre 'winning' regs and massive ones vs the fish. Not much use though if in your first sample of 50 allins you win a bowl amount of them. That doesn't get shown in a wall of stats.

I almost defended the OP earlier.  I was thinking everybody was been unduly harsh on him for posting a hand history, clearly deserves every bit. 

Now Tikay will be able to brag about not being mentioned with the mord "misclick"

Nice

OP i found this for you:

(http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae36/s4ooter/tumblr_mtwijzx5Zh1sr39gto1_250_zps6a652d3f.gif) (http://s955.photobucket.com/user/s4ooter/media/tumblr_mtwijzx5Zh1sr39gto1_250_zps6a652d3f.gif.html)

and a giant fuck you straight back at you.

So what I am taking from this thread is that the hand was played shit, but nobody wants to say so because Dan is there friend. You can never understand your true roi because there is too much varience, but just play small stakes midweek, make less per hour then you would working in Subway, then sell at a high markup on Sunday in the big tournaments and say 'it's soft because there will be satellite qualifiers'

only the last few posts have been quite so direct...

At no point have I said he played it well, at no point have I suggested anything other than he was mentally ai preflop and thought well he's prob peeling the bulk of his wide opening range so well do whatever we can to keep it widest when we get the rest in.



just because you can have the opinion OF LOL RESULTS hardly makes what you say at all valid.

the fact you went about this thread posting someone elses hh and quantifying with things like I don't know anything but this is deffo shit and he doesn't deserve markup and he's untrustworthy.



pretty obvious why you're being told to fuck off.



#CLIQUES THOUGH

Cheers,

Ill keep it with me at all times.

The difficulty with explaining things to a troll is just that.  You would have got more of a response from all if you had posted the hand and asked DC his thought process etc, instead of getting the HH and pretending your the Hero to get some replies before using that as a weapon to take a shot at Dan.  Thats just low.

Acting like a douche will get result in people not liking you much, whether you flame their friends or not.

Also posting comments about "making less than working at Subway!" and overcharging people etc when this is his job is deffo below the belt.  If i came into your workplace (i assume you have one) and attempted to pick your day apart, im pretty sure you'd be p*ssed.

A bit less of the 'fuck you', 'no fuck you', 'no fuck you sir I insist' might be helpful.

Back in the old days there's no way a thread like this would have got to 3 pages without HU4ROLLZ?

Does no one do HU4ROLLZ any more?

Is it because 'no one haz rollz, everyone's staked'?

lol this.


hu4rbreadrollz and million they wont be stale.

so many people who play mtts and are 'sickos' are backed that most recs/randoms wouldn't believe + you then hear the figures of mu that they are in and you just take a big swallow and think lol fyl.

andrewt such a good poster lol

typo meant andreww amirite?

Someone tried that. The response was 'I beat a million hands'.

If you are assuming villain peels 3bet with 100% of hands, peels flop with 100% of hands, jams turn with 100% of hands, then it would be call. However he isn't.

Don't get the stuff about being mentally all in pre flop. Ok you want to be, but instead you get to the flop with 25bb. You don't have to butcher the rest of it

why are you even posting? sitout pre

Everyone* butchers the odd hand every now and then.  Far rather see him post it rather than just give us KK < AA.   Whether he is worth 1.3 or not is a whole different argument.  People aren't taking his side because we are his mates, it is because you have gone about the discussion entirely the wrong way. 

* except Pleno obv.

If he had posted 'yeh I know I just butchered it' I wouldn't of paid a blind bit of notice. I know more then most people butch hands. It was just the response, it seemed to me to be pretty arrogant. And if it wasn't being arrogant, parts of the game like this I am not understanding and would like to know.

You may have missed it but one of my first posts in this thread were me saying that I thought I played the hand badly, you might have missed that as there has been a lot of garbage in here. I even explained why the hand was played badly. I'll say it again, it was a shocking call! Secondly, I also said that I sent a PM to paulhouk apologising about my comment; it was my worst losing day of the year and I was feeling pretty grumpy. I'd hate to think I normally talk to people like that.

Jono3131:

you not have an idea how good Dan is at the game? you go on about ''true roi and variance'' but this is picking one single hand played badly. sigh..

maybe these links will help you?
http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=35140.0
http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=62452.15

5yr difference, still crushing the games he plays. 

(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2548405/elmer-fudd-o.gif)

Jono3131 the reason people are annoyed with your post is that posting a hand history of someone elses as if it's your own violates the trust people take for granted in a forum.

I come to this page to share in a poker discussion with like minded people. Occasionally just to help out other poker enthusiasts. I don't do it to inadvertantly partake in attacks on the skill level of other players. When someone posts a hand I assume they genuinely want to seek advice and improve not to highlight another member of the forums weaknesses.

Also using one hand to generate a discussion of what mark-up someone should justifiably be charging is foolish. Even if you watched someone as outstanding as Moorman or Brammer play an entire Sunday they will do at least a couple of plays that are horrendous. It's the nature of long hours multi-tabling.

6" or Footlong?

this jono beck?

That's what I thought initially but can't be. Jono really sound lad and wouldn't be like this.

Although think op got a little too much stick!

its not Jono Beck

<3

lol lurkerrrrrr!

Originally I posted the hand history as if it was my own as I didn't want people to know it was Dan, I just wanted people to give feedback on the hand so posted it as if it was my own. I don't believe I've done anything wrong in posting the hand, Dan did it originally, it's not like I just saw the hand and took it upon myself to make a thread about it. I am unable to post in the staking section so figured this was the right place to do it.

All I was looking for is someone to say 'yes it's played well because xyz' or 'no i don't think it's played well because xyz'.

I then got annoyed because if anything, I think I was getting trolled at the start by everyone, aside from Royal flush. then once everyone realised it was Dan everyone just started saying how out of order I was, instead of commentating on the hand itself (which is why I posted it as my own).

And then in the 3/4th page Dan says 'yes I played it badly' or something similar. As previously mentioned, if he had said this to the first person that questioned the hand I wouldn't of even battered an eyelid. By him implying it was something super standard I wanted to find out why.

At no point in any of my first posts did I say Dan was not worth the markeup. I deduced that from the markup he sold at and the speed at he sold that he is obviously a better player then me. Therefore I wanted to know if this hand was played well, or badly (I am aware that you can sell at 1.3 and play hands badly).

I was then told to go and check OPR because that is why Dan is worth 1.3. So I did go and check OPR, and from what I could see by looking at games played, abi and profit, it seemed he wasn't. Then because I have insinuated that maybe Dan isn't worth 1.3 due to the results he told me to check, he takes it personally, as do all his friends.

Fun Monday afternoon reading to be fair to Dan, he posted the hand in the first place, he could have simply gone:

A10<K4 BvB :( FML tl;dr Die Pokerstars Die

I can also imagine trying to discuss strategy in detail whilst 200 tabling is pretty hard!

Why not be honest and say it's not the sharkscope, trustworthyness, work ethic etc you take into account when setting markups. You are just greedy and want to charge as high as you can while still selling out. Which you infer in your staking thread...

It's a natural cycle imo. Economics. People gradually increase markup until they don't sell out / sell out v slowly / get flamed or called out on it. Then they chill. I was vguilty of this. Pushed it too hard with the Monte Carlo earlier this year and now have found the market equilibrium (wrong term given this v dysfunctional market but you get my drift).

Many better people than myself don't do this at all btw, and sell at no markup / bowl markup eg. Pleno, Rexas, which is fair play and wp to them.

Personally I'm trying to find a middle ground between squeezing the market for the highest price, and underselling myself and doing myself out of a fully justifiable premium.

I understand the freemarket concept. However, do you not think that as a community you should be offering value? Rather then sucking it for as much as you can as often as you can?

**by 'you' I dont mean specifically yourself

Yes I do. Like I said, I think there's a middle ground, where you offer value (not just the best price someone will pay), but also don't do yourself out of a fair premium.

Everyone, thats enough please. Have had to delete a load of that

Agree to disagree but lets cool the flaming/language on all sides please

Boom, ship the last "respectable" post itt

rip beaneh? how long for?

Any info on what Spyver's other post was on? Must have been a hot topic!

^^^^^^ that.

If you click on the posters profile, then click view previous posts, it shows them.

It was 3 years ago, sweating Jack Ellwood.

So much <3


After my GP exit Girgy called me out for being tez at HU, he offered me HU4ROLLZ. He had $32 to his name so I shipped him $1 to buy into a $33 HU SNG. I won and thus HU4ROLLZ lives on. 


Jam pre innit.

Trivial spot to claim a double misclick.

jono beck is the best

Spyver>rssoul20

Spyver>thorgon88

Spyver>jackellwood

Spyver>gs08bjohnson

Spyver>sirellwood

Spyver>whollyflush

Thorgn88>rssoul20

Who's the lucky member receiving the first Spyver pm then, and what's the hurry? So intriguing....

Thought he was on a Wazz type post spin up for staking board.


Ill have 10% PM bank deets :D

Spyver gone balissss! Who Thorgn88?

Anyone want to buy some action? Selling for Sunday

haha you need 290 more mate, but ill take 10 anyway!

Wrist?

huh?

Booked pleno