blonde poker forum

Hi

To get a comp finished in 1 evening or even one day, the clock needs to be 30 mins or less and levels need to be taken out of the normal festival structures.

Since playing these £15-£50 comps around the Genting Card Rooms posting antes in a 20 min clock comp just seemed unnecessary and time consuming to me, I asked players on my tables, and they agreed that 'its a right pain'.

I asked Toby Stone (TD of the EPT and UKIPT) and our very own Simon Trumper (TD of a crappy industrial unit in Nottingham) -"why don't we remove antes from 1 day (or 1 evening) comps, as there comps are all effectively turbos no matter what fancy name we give them."

Both are in agreement that antes are not  necessary in these format of comps - they are there for 'purist' reasons, in reality,  the quicker clock and levels missing already eat away quickly into players stacks and therefore force players to make action.


I am personally 100% behind taking antes out of all DTD's £15 to £50 evening and 1 day comps for the following reasons;

1. These DTD comps are mainly aimed at recreational players, £15-£50 buy-ins, we need the game as simple as possible at this level

2. Players will see more hands per round with no antes because of the time saved to collect/count and payout the antes, more hands has got to mean a better live experience

3. Antes are introduced to 'force action', which I understand in Deepstack 2-4 day comps with longer clocks and small steps in blind levels, but 1 day comps are 15-30 mins with loads of levels missing, 'action' is already being forced in this comps so putting extra pressure on players with antes worstens the experience especially for the beginner/novice

4. Antes don't effect the time the comp will finish, this is determined by the SB BB structure, if fact, eliminating antes will increase hands dealt so might speed up the comp in certain areas.

As always, your feedback is much appreciated

Cheers Rob
 

 Perhaps remove antes for low buy ins but keep then for £50+ tournaments. Start antes after a couple more levels?

Pleae vote everyone - you have a chance to influence the competitions that many people play regularly at DTD..Over 600 individual entries for the Giant 25 and 50 pound comps this weekend, so I would imagine that's crystallised some thinking!

Easy yes from me.

The best reason for having antes in relatively fast structures is to thin the numbers out quicker and keep some play to it.  Easy maths to illustrate, insert own numbers according to structure:  

No antes:
1 million chips in play, 20 players left with 50k average, blinds 3k/6k and you can't play a hand and not take it to showdown.

With antes:
1 million chips in play, 10 players left with 100k average, blinds 3k/6k and now you can actually raise/fold.

Collecting antes shouldn't take any time, altho I accept that it does.  I've seen players and dealers at fault for it, altho primarily players, it seems that putting in an ante chip each time is a tough gig to remember.

Patrick Leonard keep them, people are supposed to play tight without antes, with antes they can play loose and it be correct. also if you want to feed these guys through to your big tournaments too then you dont want them to be "wtf is an ante" when they sit down and feel imtimidated and already have a sign on their back.

I vote for them to stay.

Antes in
But then again I never travel to Dtd for the daily tourneys

I understand what you are saying in theory, but in reality, comps at this level don't play like this, I have watched 1000's at DTD aswell as having played a lot myself recently. There is no adjustment for antes in players games late on, it's about the money bubble and final table, and players getting semi decent hands versus semi decent hands. In our £50 Grand Prix we have all of the WSOP levels, a 40 min clock, and it still plays down to 10BB average, where as our £300 Deepstack (the same structure and clock) rarely goes below 35BB's average.

In reality, having played and watched these comps, IMO Patrick's point is the only argument for keeping antes in these comps. We have timed play with / without antes and on average you would 10-15% more hands by removing antes, it's okay saying 'players and dealers should be quicker', but again, we have to look at reality, our trainee dealers start dealing on evening comps before moving to cash/festival events, and so our new/recreational player also start on the comps.

Again, understand the maths assuming players adjust optimally to antes, and play loose/tight accordingly, but that's just not the case.

Out of interest, do pub leagues etc use antes?

Cheers Rob

Played a comp without antes recently - turgid affair near the last 2 tables - keep them please

Any more turgid that a normal evening comp though? every comp that I have played on the Genting Tour has gone down to 10BB average, sometimes 5BB during final WITH antes, isn't this just the case with a comp that starts at 8pm and needs to finish in 7-9 hours? Looks like opinion is split.

FWIW we talked about this at length awhile back and the consensus was you need them but in short clock comps the big blind should pay the antes for all to keep the game flowing

I have heard that suggested in ante cash games before.

Why do you need antes in a comp with this common scenario though? Both Toby and Simon believe that antes are purely 'cosmetic' in these turbo formats and they spend their lives analysing structures etc. Lets say the clock is 20 mins, the average BB is 15, level is 2000-4000, next level is 3000-6000 (2500-5000 missing) - what is the benefit of everyone posting at 400 ante, there is a 50% jump in blinds coming............you gotta play!


Cheers Rob

Hard to judge really between the overall reality and the way it made me feel personally - I know I didn't like it which may get in the way of a reasoned judgement

As I rarely play with a stack above 10bb I would have to welcome such a move Rob :)

Tim

U deffo need antes. Pls pls pls don't take them out

Not playing much poker nowadays is always going to weaken the validity of anything I put forward :)  If players genuinely aren't making any adjustments for antes then either a lot of players are making a pretty big mistake, or the antes are not set at the correct level.

I have played a few where the antes have been 25 at 300/600 ... this is cosmetic and makes little difference.  The antes should be ~ 1 BB in total... so at 300/600 antes should be 50 or even 75.  It would be hard for someone to not adjust to that as it makes a pretty big difference to how long people can sit there nursing short stacks.

I think antes are good for building bigger pots and rewarding more aggressive players so I like them from that point.

However they actually mean you get less hands per level as it wastes time collecting them.

My suggestion: get the button to post everyones ante as it's faster. So each round of the table you will pay 1BB, 1SB and 1 lot of Antes for the whole table.


[Edit] my bad, just noticed T8MML suggested BB pays them.

Why not introduce antes at a later stage or make them smaller for longer, so the dynamic of having an ante is still there but not having such a big effect on shorter stacked players.

for my own personal view dbl the antes and add an extra 5 minutes too the clock
you will find the game is sped up but there is more play and will finish around same time

intro them as early as possible however I think dealers in general spend too long pulling in antes.

It promotes/rewards aggressive play (or at least should) which will help players become more well rounded overall. In smaller 1 day comps you can probably have an aggressive ante as well like 50/100/25 an 100/200/50 etc

Players starting out don't want to learn aggressive play tho.  They want to see cheap flops.

Think it's a good idea.  Maybe keep the 50s with antes tho.

The other extreme and would force players to adjust and I can see the merits - but there are only many hands you can deal within 20 mins.

What's best for recreational and novice players is what ALL the poker community should be considering in this tough stagnant market and feedback relative to those players would be helpful. What's the best experience for THEM, there £15-£50 comps are where the grass roots of poker stats for many, and we need them to have the best experience and get hooked on the game.

I started off on re-buys with no antes as did so many others.

Thx for all feedback so far, As well as opinion on here, which is almost split 50:50, I have asked Nicola to contact all XXL 15 XXl 25 and Super 50 players living within 60 miles of DTD to get their vote/opinion, there are our regular evening/1 day players - so lets see what they think as a group of players.

I completely agree with Rob that there a very few players that make the correct adjustments to their play style to factor in antes, so I don't think this should really be considered. I honestly quite like the idea of trialing the idea of no antes in the 25's, and keeping them for the 50's. This keeps the 25 a little simpler for beginners, be they dealers or players. From my experience, a lack of antes does make things faster, simpler and easier, and doesn't really effect the finishing time because tbh people still play the same way, and the average stacks still end up being about the same.

The only ante level I would do away with is 75.

Just takes bloody ages sorting out change etc

Try

150-300/25
200-400/25
300-600/50
400-800/50
600-1200/100

Voted to keep them.

Can you issue dealers with sharp sticks to prod those who don't post them quickly enough? :D

I think Pleno has made a valid point, players need to understand the game, how it plays, and what their responsibilities are, and even though it is one of my pet hates that there is always someone who needs constantly asking by the dealer to post his ante (no matter what the buy level) if we can people doing this from their poker early years, then perhaps they would have it fixed in their heads and doing it without being asked.

I only tend to play £50+/30 min lvl buy ins so dont have the experience to say how it will effect shorter blinds level games, but that is due to living where i do, if i lived closer i'd be in a lot more often (just dont tell the wife i said so)

Also liked the suggestion to keep the ante at an easy number, ie 25,50,100,200 etc and ignore the 75 as quite frequently there is a shortage of change esp if you have someone running over the table

Mick

My immediate reaction to the question was that antes should be kept.
Then I read that Rob thinks they are unnecessary and that Simon and Toby agree and now I'm thinking who am I to gainsay those three?
I play these comps so rarely that it feels inappropriate to vote on their structure but why not try a few nights without them and see how it goes?
All one night tournaments eventually end up at average stack<10BB with or without antes anyway.

Personally, I don't see a point in 25 antes, the chip stacks at the start of the tournament are too big for them to make any steals. I do like ante's but think they should be brought in later. In Derby I brought them in at 400/800/100 suited the recreational game quite well imo.

I would however get rid of them in Turbo's

Think like many have said plzzz don't do away with antes, it's great for players learning and adapting a basic game ready for something bigger. I'd like to actually see comps with my play in them, be nice to have deeper stack comps with buyin between £30-£50. I've seen posted on Facebook many times comps going off in Luton but because it takes me 1hour half to get there it's not really possible midweek. 30k stack 20min clock starting at 7pm for example, think different clocks and stacks would be better experimented with.
I don't really understand people moaning about game going on late, if ur going to poker then just expect it and if u stay til 3am then it usually means ur chopping which is surely worth it.
Keep antes I for one would not be interested in playing them but if Dtd feel the need to try then fair play

I wouldn't play in a game that doesn't have antes. The only exception is a pub game but they're more about getting pissed than playing poker.


Antes should come in earlier, starting stacks should be lower, and re-entries should not be allowed (except for big buyins perhaps).

The Gala here had a £50 f/o, 20,000 chips, 20 min clock. No antes. Good lord what an awful structure. Nothing happens for 2 hours then with 20-30 players left the average is 10BB and its past midnight. Yawn.

G meanwhile had a £50 f/o, 15,000 chips, 24 min clock (no 25/50), and antes. MUCH better. The first levels becpme relevant and by the time of the final the average is 30BB.

I remember when DTD had 25/50/75 comps with starti g stacks of 3k/4k/5k. That's more like it! Right from the word go pots matter and the game is exciting.

Nowadays it seems to be considered necessary to start everyone with 200+BB. What's the point. It's boring. It's a crappy nightly turbo. I don't want to sit pointlessly with loads of chips for 2 hours before the game starts to get interesting.

I understand the thinking of people not wanting a wasted trip but this is flawed IMO. That's what side games and cash games are for.

How about some sort of offer like first 5 knocked out get free entry into a cheaper 2nd tournament which has a faster clock and starts 2 hours after the first. (Eg of there's a £25 comp you might make a £15 2nd comp). It's something those who are knocked out can play so you don't have to worry about th being concerned about getting knocked out early.

I'm rambling again so I will shut up :)

I took the pathetic option and voted 'dont know'. I suppose if the people in the know think it makes sense then who am I to disagree. But I would like to see it in the small torns only (25) and perhaps only once a week, because as others have said having them is better for more aggressive players.
 I played won the £25 last night and noted the 75 antes were missing, which was a good thing.

Loads of typo errors sigh :(

*more play in them no my, hate Mondays!!

Brag!! ;)

Wp m8

Never miss the oppo to slip one in m8

They obviously favour the more savvy, aggressive players. Personally, if the aim of the <£60 comps is to attract new or less experienced players, keeping antes out of the comp (at least until late stages) is a good thing, IMO.

I prefer comps without antes for say the super 50 types, even if I were playing more aggressively and picking up chips at that stage. The game flows better and there's always one who forgets to post every hand, a dealer who's understandably fed up of asking and a situation where someone hasn't posted and we have to work out who it was. I'm not convinced the comp gets finished any quicker either way. Introduce them at the final table.

For £100 and multi day comps, antes are important and there is an expectation that the players are more comfortable and better equipped to deal with the changing dynamics.

I don't have a strong view, but this caught my eye from Rob's OP.......


1. These DTD comps are mainly aimed at recreational players, £15-£50 buy-ins, we need the game as simple as possible at this level


A lot of heads are being buried in the sand right now - poker needs more new blood, the global trend suggests far less players playing regularly, & less new players joining, & the trend is accelerating.

Anything which encourages more new blood in the game must be tried. Without it, the downward trend will not abate.

I'm not convinced that Antes make much difference at the Buy-In Levels Rob is discussing, & it can't exactly make the game user-friendly to newbies.

It's not a big deal either way, in itself, but every decision should be based on how we get more players to play the game. If it means denying the established regulars the perfect poker experience they rightly crave, I don't think that's a huge price to pay if it helps new players feel more comfortable.

Remember that feeling when you scooped your first ever massive live pot and the dealer heaves a mound of lovely chips at you? I do. It was great.

Antes pretty much ensure lots of chips on the table which means more FUN. Yeehaa.

I try to win my first pot before the antes kick in.

Which is the main reason Tal has no experience of playing with antes in play.

:(

fyi, from you, gifless pwnage just looks lazy

If this is an issue, just put more lower value chips instead of a couple of 1ks.

Also race chips off later in the comp.

I voted to ditch them. For the novice/recreational player it just makes things simpler and has Rob stated back in the day we never had antes at all. And when a player is ready to step up to bigger games then surely they wont need any/much help with antes.

Please don't do this. Watching some ham-fisted player ask me for $500 worth of ante chips (which I happily give in the off-chance it helps him speed up putting an ante in) and then count out a flop call of $450 in said ante chips (one at a time), before asking me next hand for some more change as he has "run out" is quite possibly one of the most tilting things to happen at a table.

I definitely agree with this. Don't want recreational players to then take a punt at a higher level in DTD and feel intimidated by the whole ante scenario. The sooner it is learnt, the better imo

Back in the day though it was pot limit hold'em (no antes)

It sounds wrong, but at least if the smaller buy-in local comps have antes introduced at some stage, it speeds the game up on transformation to a bigger game becuase they auto do it.
In my experience the thing that significantly slows a game down is like 300/600/75 and below bets of eg 1425 followed by a raise of 2875 after someone has the majority of the 25's is a right pain in the arse. If the antes dont kick in till 400/800/100 then you can get rid of them on the second break.

^^^^ THIS^^^^

But without antes seeing flops is going to be more expensive (obviously with worse odds to see the flop for every player too)

Remove the no antes section not the antes themselves!

make it a rule that all bets be made with the minimum number of chips. if you call 200 with 1x100 & 4x25 chips then your hand is dead. simples

http://fullcontactpoker.com/poker-journal.php/poker-journal.php?subaction=showfull&id=1289951723&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&

That's not an argument for or against antes by the way, that is an argument for higher ante % per round. (and 100% agree with it)

Dbl antes I already said that

And how does this help a newbie or rec, settle in?

New blood is required, not more off putting rules.

I voted remove the antes, purely based on the fact I'm colour blind, and it's 1 less colour for me to worry about.  Obviously this affects hardly anyone else.

Asking for change for antes just bugs me TBH.

I,m not a big fan of antes,it takes up to much of the dealers time......plus i hate being called Auntie by the dealer when i forget to put them in !!!!

The only reason for antes is to allow someone to raise/fold.

If you have a pot of 3000 chips composed of 800sb 1600bb and 600 in antes, the min raise is 3200

If you have a pot of 3000 chips composed of a 1000sb and a 2000bb, the min raise is 4000

Obv raise folding means that re-stealing is an option.

You could think about two BBs rather than big small as a way of inflating the pot without the hassle of antes.

My vote is to keep them, yes it can slow the hands/hr a bit but they are good for the game at all levels.  As has previously been said the more aggro players do adjust and create action even in low buyin comps.  IMO having antes delays the inevitable shove/fold crapshooty stage of turbo comps. 

When all is said and done, if the average stack has dropped to 5 BB, the structure is not to blame, the players are!  Nitting up waiting for the bubble to burst causes this 90% of the time because theres a lot of players out there who are happy with a min cash, especially at lower level buyins, taking home a small profit after having a fun night playing poker.  I'm not saying I've got a problem with this or that its wrong, a cash is a cash, this happening is an important part of learning the games dynamics, but changing the structure in a 1 day comp wont have much effect other than how long it takes to get to that stage.

Im completely out of touch with low buyin nightly comps, would I be right in saying that the type of player that mostly uses the structure to turn the tournament into a 10bb average-type tournament is the older generation of player?

If so, then can this not be attributed to extensive experience in no-ante tournaments?  Without being ridiculous about it i think forcing players to lose chips every hand and not just twice per orbit causes them to play more pot, steal more pots, fight for more pots, play more postflop and will improve their overall game in the longrun and if this is happening on a wider scale in smaller buyins throughout the UK then the players advancing to bigger buyins will be better equipped in those tournaments when they do play hands against better players.

At Luton I'm pretty sure that they've introduced new min bet rules which could, even should, enable the antes to go.

Struggling to figure it out exactly but something like

Suited broadways, AK - you can do a min (gay) raise to steal the antes that are still in place at the moment

Pairs 22 - 99  - min open rule is 3x

TT-JJ  - min open is 9x

QQ, KK, AA, - min open 4x

You forgot the fishy ace-x open, min open is to the 2nd knuckle from the front stack.

Keep them in super 50s and any flagship weekend events but anything with lower buy in and midweek nightly 15,20 and 50 pound comps just remove them as it will speed up the game and make it more rec friendly.

I still think that starting comps with 999,999 chips and being able to be knocked out at 1-2am without even being on the final puts newbies off.

People have lives/work (except maybe poker players. ;)) poker can get boring after that amount of time, and getting knocked out without winning after that amount of time sucks.

But maybe that's just me...

Antes don't matter either way to me, it is what it is.

There are a number of things that put new players off but one thing that definitely puts them off is the finish times, I would say a huge percentage of recreational players all have jobs and can't be in a casino till after midnight.

Here's an idea

A timed tournament
Cheap buy in aimed at lower stakes recreational players and new players
7pm till 11 pm
Antes from the start
Maximum amount of time to play your hand so there are no time wasters
Payout based on chip stacks after four hours

Just throwing it out there

It gives an end time, a payout for lasting the distance, antes from the start will force play and I think would attract newer players as they can see there are four hours of play and they will get a return should they last that long.

Lets not mess with comps. They're actually quite good ATM. Antes in comps wouldn't be the top of my list when it comes to improving one day events

Pretty sure the reason they are present is to keep forcing people into all-ins/bigger pots at a steady rate, keeping players busting out and the average stack constant and high enough to make it playable for those left in.

Rob pointed out in this super fast evening comps the blinds go up steeply and quickly, so people forced all-in pretty quickly anyways, so maybe ante's won't make too much of a difference, if peoples experience playing these comps is improved by removing them, and the game speed ups drastically, then you should remove them imo.

I recall when I first started playing in these evening comps structure was like;

10k stack

50-100
100-200
200-400
400-800

No antes in sight, in fact pretty sure I'd been playing live poker for about 2 years before I posted an ante lol, those comps were still a load of fun and the same guys used to play every night. Now I think the casino comps all have ante's and I still see the same people there all the time as I did years ago so doesn't really seem like it makes much difference either way.

Don't agree at all

The point of any blinds/antes is to create action.  The difference between just blinds and blinds and antes is that the minimum bet is smaller when you use antes.

At the extreme, imagine blinds of 100/200 and antes of 100 and compare it to blinds of 400/800.  There is the same 1200 chips in the pot before any action.  But to have any chance of winning the money in the latter case, you have to risk far more.  So for any given M, it is more likely than a shovefest occurs without antes.

making it past level 3 is pretty hard tho.

Having played a few of the lower buy in events at DTD with a relatively fast clock I have to say that I'd be in favor of removing antes OR introducing a form of 'courtesy clock' whereby players have a set amount of time to make a decision. One of the problems I've seen (particularly recently) is that players are impressed by DTD and take it 'seriously'. Their only exposure to 'serious' poker is on TV- where drama is created by long tanks and dramatic calls/ folds. For some reason they fail to notice the difference between a two hour clock and a 20 minute one. One hand on my table last Friday at 4k/8k took 7 minutes in a 20 minute structure and terminated in a 'dramatic' two minute tank/ fold......
I've recently been bemoaning that DTD wasn't what it used to be because I used to go for the great structures and quality comps. I've realised that it's not the standard of tournaments but the standard of player that needs polishing up! Maybe a bit of player education might go a long way to speeding things up; possibly penalties introduced for consistently slow play?
I run a room and I've started to warn players for slow play when the clock is 20 minutes or less, with penalties of anything from missing 3 hands to missing a round. I haven't had to impose a penalty yet and it seems to have helped, albeit slightly.
In conclusion- ANYTHING to speed up play!

I have never seen an ante = 1 sb. They tend to be .25/.2 which makes your argument moot. Dont just randomly compare blind levels also. I think I'd prefer antes in 1 day comps but have no info to back it up and would rarely play one.

less in the pot = more incentive to shove

say wat

i do like the idea of having a set time to carry out an action, esp in the £50 and lower buy in games with 30 minute clocks or below

As stated previously, you do get some hollywood folders in these games that take an age every decision

I have been known to call a clock on someone when i'm not even in a hand, it's considered bad etiquette yes, but so is taking 2 minutes thinking about weather or not to call a preflop min raise *



*i've never called a clock in that situation, but have seen people agonise over what to do with their hand in that situation when sat with 100BB

I didn't say that.  I said for the same pot size, the pot composed of blinds alone is more likely to lead to preflop allins?  Do you disagree with that?

I get what you're saying but don't see why it's relevant as the antes you describe are unrealistic most antes are 1/4ish the sb not 1sb.

you're initial one liner is related more to proper strategy rather than a structure discussion esp with all the people who don't play correctly. I also agree with the response you disagree with but that disagreement is based on really specifically unrealistic examples and pedantry it seems.

just come and watch a sky tourny play out with no antes and you'll see the problem.

it's less of a shove fest and more of a fold and wait till they cant fold to your shove fest, then a lets go complain about the shovefest rather than wondering if we played well.


antes from the start is a good idea imo, worked really well in some tournies they ran at the international a little while back, they wanted a pr aspect to use so they started with 50k stacks with 100/200/25 as the first level.

obv I know what size antes are


The point is that antes are good for play but slow down the game. So if you want to have the same effect as antes (larger pot in relation to opening bet) you have to do something like two big blinds or an extra small blind on the button.

with vaguely competent dealers/players it doesn't have to slow them down that much. + if lower players sat into a bigger dtd comp then they are going to have to play them so the experience helps rather than being like wait wat everyhand. 1 clueless person can slow a table down so much more than lethargic regs.


I'm so confused, you seem to be arguing the case for antes right?

I'm just saying what antes do to the action imo.

The issue is that they DO slow the game down according to posts early in the thread.

so does stupid tanking, tanking after you've watched someone else tank, not looking at your cards till 30 seconds after it's on you etc etc

those have less direct affect on the 'amount of play' compared to antes, hence I think antes should def be included and preferably brought in earlier.

shot clocks ftw

Been thinking more about this, initially was against removing antes as I personally prefer them in.

In terms of what's good for the game tho in turbo, lower buy in comps - I'm pretty much persuaded that removing them would be generally popular for those that play them and deal them - ergo, think it probs makes sense to lose them.

What % of posters itt are actually the demographic being targeted here though ?

Does seem like most posts from those in favour is from a personal pov of ante's are incred, gotta keep the antes. Anyone who isn't a pro though has no reason to actually care about long term survival of the game, they can just find a different hobby.

I would say keep them in for the £50 bi and lose them for the rest, that way you give lower stakes players the chance to play better structures for less, which covers Pads' point, which was my first thought also, whilst making the game more fun for those looking for just that. I'd expect most of the people playing £20 comps will have a better experience without antes.

and put a timer on action, get them to use their braincells quicker!!!!

Do you think new players who are nervous about playing live will enjoy this though ?

Great Post, Mr Ray.

Current voting figures, fwiw......

No Antes - 51 (47.2%)
Yes - Keep Antes - 54 (50%)
Dont Care or Dont know - 3 (2.8%)

Tikay, the idea of the voting being hidden is that you have to express your own opinion without seeing what others have said. It has to be YOUR view.

Nevertheless, good to see plenty of comments and involvement

It's not hidden ? Just have to click view results.

Whoops, I thought everyone could see them, sorry!

Most of the votes have been cast by now, as luck would have it, so hopefully no harm done.

Phew!

I love you more every day, Ray.

Never noticed that.

Apologies.

As you were.

 ;shame;

Valid point, however DTD are already running beginners tournaments to get people into the game, and if it is pointed out to them at this time that they have a reasonable amount of time to act, and how much hollywooding slows the game down, especially with the difference between online play, where most people learn the game (i imagine), and live play, where a dealer has to sort out pots, deal cards etc etc.

In a bigger game, say 100 and above, where the clock is usually 40+ minutes, and prizes are so much bigger, then yes, decisions may take longer, but in a £50 buy in 30 minute clock game, especially a 1 day tournament, then taking an age to call/fold becomes unreasonable imo

Obviously this is just my own thoughts put into words.

And i'm def in favour of bringing in new players, not because i can use my obvious skills to crush their souls, but because i want places like DTD to continue to run and expand. I love the game, i like to think that i am winning long term, but in reality i'm probably losing, however i'm doing it knowing i'm having fun, doing something i love, that now and then allows me to buy the wife some new shoes, and one day, i might run good enough to win a decent amount and do something significant with it for my family.

Plus, people like to play hands, give the showboaters less time to umm and ahhh about their hand and the recs like me get to play more hands per hour and enjoy the game more

Just, again, my opinion

I just can't see a downside to antes for anybody really. Strategy wise I don't think anyone on here will disagree that they will give better players an edge. Correct? I think so.

Also once week players with their mates for a night out or the old boys in every night will mind. They now have something to do every hand. More fun. More interaction with people. That's why they have come out to play.

Even the players who will bet 425 in greens are giving you a tell.

Our local has just put them in and it's much better. No one moans at all as far as I heard. I won't vote as I don't play these at DTD.

Second sentence contradicts first sentence.

Strongly Disagree. Since when was Poker a hobby for hobbys sake?

I disagree with ur disagree

They play poker cos it's fun. That's what a hobby is right?
Winning money is just extras.

I voted 'keep antes' but after reading Rob's post I totally understand where he is coming from and would like to vote for 'no antes'.

One thing I noticed speed wise is DTD dealers collect antes before dealing cards. Can't they distribute cards (whilst prompting for ante any that are missing) and then collect in antes. Would save time?

is it really a big issue? and if so id prefer simon actually doing the hands up vote in the club to the players that matter (feels more personal) and not people on here who dont play them or play them once in a blue moon.
i think the structures our spot on :)
Alot of players simply cannot afford deepstack etc so xxl and super50 our there serious games i know some players who our really good that play these, i believe alot of local players play these very loose and as fun agreed, but i also consider and know alot of players wana take these serious as its there only game and there not 'flicking in' 50quid.
maybe once a week would be ok.

maybe dtd could try different game formats at a cheaper buyin??? been suggested before but fell on def ears kinda

-bounty friday night perhaps or saturday xxl format(cheaper than before as it ended up costing £90 for a midweek game) - maybe £50 total get bums on seats and playing poker
-tag team games, or team game which our fun, i played one last weekend and one in vegas. really enjoyed it created a great atmosphere between teams
-pro bounty in games, get some local top players who have won deepstack etc to play smaller comps xxl/super50 and have multiply bounties in a game, know robs doing this atm around gentings and think this is a fantastic idea.

antes should stay, maybe players should be sent to the rail for a round if they keep ignoring dealers and not putting antes in lol, dealers need to be more assertive when asking players and let them know whos boss.

Can someone confirm if antes are staying for now. Me and a few mates planning to make the trip Friday but won't be coming if no antes. Ta

Opinions, shmoopinions..... This thread shows the benefits of an absolute ruler/dictator. There is no conclusive result and some are threatening not to play if changes are made. Do what your good at Rob, give it a try, and make it a small sample size then see what happens. GL.

I generally much prefer tourneys to have antes, but voted to get rid here.
I never travel specifically to play a £15-£50 regular even, but when I bust from a main event and try and sit in one of these the ante's make it feel really crap shooty from pretty early on, especially when combined with the faster clock.

I think I'd quite enjoy a smaller buy in comp if I didn't feel like I was looking for a spot from level 3 :)

with the votes being so close, I'd suggest it was worth giving it a try and seeing how players feel having taken part.

There will be ante's this week. No change yet, just getting a feel and opinions at the moment.

Glenn

Are boycotting ifs antes are removed ? One less player to beat!!

Ha wouldn't call it a boycott.

We are not making any changes this week.

But serious - you and your friends threatening to boycott / not support a DTD event kind of makes me puke.

Sigh TK

It's not a boycott Rob just personal preference. The idea of playing a comp without antes just isn't appealing.

Hi George,

I think - in fact I would bet - that your Post did not come out quite as you intended.

There is a whole world of difference between these two Posts, the written word is very unforgiving.



Can someone confirm if antes are staying for now. Me and a few mates planning to make the trip Friday . Ta


Now see how different in tone & intent this looks......

Can someone confirm if antes are staying for now. Me and a few mates planning to make the trip Friday but won't be coming if no antes. Ta

One of those is far more likely to be positively received, as intended, than the other.

I never used the language boycott. And my post wasn't a threat. And I don't understand why I wouldn't be supporting Dtd if I didn't play an anteless tournament which wouldn't appeal to me.

So your saying do as myself and my friends want or we wont come to DTD...Now to me that is a very childish attitude to take..why not say you will come give it a go without antes and an open mind and if its not for you then in future you wont come...You can't just dismiss a new idea just because you like the way something is at present,who's to say removing the antes wont make for a better product......Im no crash hot poker player but i do support DTD and if they want to try something new lets give it a go...A couple of years ago someone said to me the DTD Poker League wont last 5mins..i think you will find this not to be the case,lets try be flexible and give it a go.

Hold on a minute George supports DTD a lot

Perhaps his comment was a bit insensitive/easy to be taken out of context, but it wasn't helped when someone used the word "boycott" after him. Which wasn't too helpful

I doubt very much George would ever do that. Big fan of DTD and its tournaments, that much is evident

So lets not make mountains out of molehills please

LOL at having no antes is a "new idea".

I don't understand how George's post could be seen as a threat, that would mean he would think he solely could be a deciding factor in ante's/no ante's.

I'm 100% certain he wouldn't be stupid enough to think that.

I've played comps both with and without antes and without antes is not for me. A personal choice. I did not intend it to sound like I wasn't supporting a new idea nor did I mean it to sound like I was taking my bat and ball home. I'm all for innovative ideas. I supported the idea of a shot clock on dtd nightly comps- it was subsequently shot down and never happened.


Cheers Tighty. I'm a big advocate and fan of the way did do things. My comments may have been construed in a certain way. They were never intended as a threat or a boycott.

ziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing

Ban

fyp

George apologies if i offended you that was not my intension...i just like to see inovative ideas given a chance,i have never played a no antes tournement so would welcome the opportunity to see for myself if it works or not,believe me i will be the first to let the relative powers know if i think its not working...good luck in future events.

Lol, didnt think it was that bad wat George said, he's being honest he wouldn't play Friday if it was in place which is fair enough, feeling that muzzles our put on people's mouth incase people get offended by things said our the way it's put across. Understand people barking back!!game on ;)

Everytime I post , I offended someone . It's me who use the word "boycott" and not Bedi . Read my post carefully and it say " One less to beat " . It meant to be a joke and all people out there that don't understand my post come punishing !

Sorry Bedi

Nw Frankie mate. I know u were messing

Just had a show of hands in the xxl comp at Dtd
I reckon 65/35% going towards keeping antes, pretty close
Thks Simon

voted, but not sure and not that bothered really, regs should have a say but again is this fair? would be different without antes but that's why dtd is boss, compulsory straddle in cash would be more fun.

It does raise an interesting point though.

Quite a few people (myself included) would opt not to play a tournament with the lack of antes being the reason.

I doubt many would decide not to play a comp because it does have antes.

The proposition is to remove antes in lower buy in short clock tourneys, I doubt you're part of the target market.
 

I still play the occasional low buyin comp. I never played at Gala and their structures and lack of running ante was one of the main reasons.

Just to be devil's advocate, what about the voice of people who would be more inclined to play these tournaments if there are no antes? Lots of other reasons a straw poll like that doesn't necessarily give the result that would be seen in a poll conducted in a different manner.

I originally voted for antes to be kept but fully understand Rob and Simon's points about the low buyin comps and the additional time it takes resulting in fewer hands. They are probably correct in that the extra hands play will probably offset the effect of not including antes and many of the participants are hardly likely to be that bothered. Might be worth experimenting with the low buy-in 1 evening comps.

I don't travel to DTD for many 1 day comps but can hardly think having/not having antes would be a big factor in my decision whether to play or not. Obviously longer and bigger buyin comps should be kept the way they currently are.

The main reasons not to play at Gala back in the day were the organisation, the TD decisions and the bias towards regs not the fact that antes weren't in play. However I did play there occasionally as the said regs were pretty easy to play against. I actually miss those days.

I play on Sky quite a bit along with 5 or 6 other sites.  When I first started I got irritated with the lack of antes, but I don't really notice any more.  I don't notice much difference in play between that and another one of the fishier sites I play on.  Some players are going to make optimistic calls whether there are antes in or not.   I just play where I think my ROI is best, and I think an easier game is much more important than a great structure or antes.  If it encourages newer players to join, then any edge you get from the antes will be balanced by having tables with less skilled players.  And surely the increased number of hands per hour works in the favour of the better players anyway?

I just can't see any harm in trying it and see what happens.  If it doesn't work, they can always be brought back.

I haven't voted, because DTD is a bit far away for me to play these comps.

Finally, surely nobody really gets more excited to rake a 10k pot full of shrapnel than one without? 

The 'fear of change' factor has to be considered when looking at the results. Therefore, with the vote being so close, I would say getting rid of antes wins hands down...

(in the £25 only) ;)

Hi Rob, i am defintely behind the decision of keeping antes in. In these liveaments you have been playing would you say the starting stacks are too deep for the nightly cardroom turbo comp?
It's clear all these comps are turbos and have to be to get finished in reasonable time, circa 7hrs. your point of making it simple as possible for the players doesn't make much of a point, ante's are a very simple and easily understandable part of all tournament structures.
  I'm sure that the increase in hands per hour in these comps will not change game flow, it could be up to 5 hands per hour more but that is rather irrelevant. Antes are introduced to force action, and this is needed. Your average rec doesnt play much poker on the felt, they play 'snap' with flops and wait for big starting hands, you know aswell as i do, rec players care less about structure and more about starting stacks. this is why we are getting infated 30k+ starting stacks in certain places. this is definitely not good for the poker economy as newer players are getting less chance to learn how to effectively ''play'' the game, bluff/float ect and play the game for what it is! the stacks are so deep they think more about preservation and opportunitys to wait for their next big hand. than technicals of the game, years ago when starting stacks were 30bb players had great fun and punted stacks like no tomorrow, there was clear;y a sense of excitement and fear of knowing you gotta get going from the start. now players are just folding heros.
  I do struggle to put my point across as well as i think of it.
What i am concluding is, after the honeymoon period of taking antes out, i am 100% sure your tournaments will last longer and longer and become more of a fold festival. speeding up the deal will give people incentives to carry on folding as the next hand will take less time to be given to them.
  If i could have my way, no cardroom nightly turbo would have a starting stack of more than 8000 chips @50/100 as that will get people busting out earlier, therefore creating a deeper game later on.

as it was said. the grand prix final had 10bb avg. this is because these kind of players take no consideration into stack sizes in correlation to blind levels. but to pay bubbles/jumps and getting to final table.

Just finished by latest Genting comp, £40 FO in Blackpool, this one was played with NO ANTES.

The 20 min clock/missing levels forced me to play regardless of no antes, I asked players at every table and the vast majority didnt want antes at this level because they wanted to see more hands.

After playing 8 evening comps over last 2 weeks, I much prefer without antes, it's not even close, everything in so much quicker, more hands means more players bust, dealers are focussing on the game rather than collecting and counting antes. I am just so surprised that +50% of votes prefer the ante option, it's a no brainer to me having played both, I guess the more savvy players who can 'adjust to antes/pot sizes etc' could lose some edge if antes are taken out, but for general player experience, especially new and recreational - there is simply no comparison to me. Even though I am an experienced player, I guess I would put myself in the recreational bracket for these type of comps.

On another note, the biggest single complaint from players during  this tour is FINISHING TIMES of evening comps, but that's a whole new debate!

I Busted 8th, min cashed for £80 :)

Cheerd Rob

Hi Rob,
My thoughts shouldn't (don't) matter as I hardly ever play live, but I wasn't putting forward a solution that was for my benefit ~ I'm an old nit that can sit there peddling 8bbs all evening along with the worst of them...

I'm sure most of the people that complained about finishing times would also prefer to have more chips too... such is the nature of poker players, a lot of them don't seem to realise the consequences of what they ask for.  Of the players wanting to "see more hands" I wonder if some of them wanted to take more flops, rather than be dealt more hands.  You say 'more hands mean more players bust' but more reasons to enter a pot mean more players bust too.

Everyone rowing for home 4 tables out with 8bbs for the remainder of the comp isn't enjoyable poker, but neither is being sat there until 6am waiting for someone to enter a pot.  I think the goal should be to have a structure that finishes at a sensible time, (not too many chips in play on a "slow" clock) and allows some play post flop. Any structure that achieves that is a good tourny to play, with or without antes.

To me with or without ante, early hours finishing time isn't a problems too. My problems is try to win the comp I played . Whatever the house decide , I m fine with it #NEUTRAL-NOCOMMENT

Obv will play DTD whatever happens. I would say I am in the target demographic, if not, certainly on the border of. Local, played a few deepstacks and a UKIPT but the vast majority of my comps have been £50-£100 buy in.

When I have played no ante comps in the past it has just encouraged people to sit and fold util they picked up a monster as they could pretty much do this for free. I didn't find them overly enjoyable to play but that's not to say others didn't.. It certainly didn't increase post flop play and having no antes just meant you had less of an incentive to open a pot imo.

That said, if having no antes makes the majority of recs happier and subsequently increases the size of the player pool then that's win win for everyone!!

GL

I'm with Frankie on this one...whatever you decide..Im in.

this  + <3 DTD

Finishing times is the main thing for me during mid week tourneys
X
Best tourney in manc is the 50£ on tues  it last past 6 am lol

But it always get like 100+ every week

about my 4th post in this thread.....

i dont mind either way personally, as i know when antes kick in i am expected to post, and therefore i do, every hand, regardless of if i've won a pot and am trying to sort my chips, or if i've not done much and am waiting for a playable hand

i love playing at DTD, and wish i lived closer so i could play more

if the structures of the lower buy ins could be adjusted so that 4am finishes were as late as it got then i'd be over the moon too!!!!

either way, whatever Rob et al decide, i'll still make it my aim to get down at least once between offshore trips (and when my pay rises come through try and play some of the bigger buy ins too)

Keep the antes, and keep them high in relation to the blinds,

Makes the game
1) looser
2) entertaining
2) skillfull
4) chip plentiful, people like scooping in a big pot no matter what the denomination

People have to adapt to going from no antes to antes so it adds another dynamic to the game.

Rather than think of removing antes from tournaments think of a way of adding them into a cash game.

 :tikay:

Right behind you on this one!

Antes in cash game with no straddle allowed will be fun .

yeah ppl say this but when you look at Pstars and their thousands of players, a miniscule fraction of them choose to sit at ante tables.

I'd rather turn into salad fingers then play the nlhe games on stars.

Rob

On another note, the biggest single complaint from players during  this tour is FINISHING TIMES of evening comps, but that's a whole new debate!

couldn't agree more...most have day jobs...i refer to my post on page 5 of this thread.

They don't suit most people, I'd just enjoy FR poker a lot more if there were antes, but that is just me

I'm fairly sure most venues would open a cash game with antes if there was demand, even as a one off, we'll give it a try kinda thing.  I'd definitely play.