blonde poker forum

Hi all,

One that came up in a game recently. Low buy in, self deal.

Player 1 = SB
Player 2 = BB
Player 3 = first to act - does nothing because he has spotted he has 3 cards.
Player 4 = folds
Player 5 = folds
Player 3 = Realises he has 3 cards and announces it.

Misdeal? Hand dead? I looked at RR and these 2 came to mind:

1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.

1. Your hand is declared dead if:

(a) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise.

(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).

(c) In stud, when facing a bet, you pick your upcards off the table, turn your upcards facedown, or mix your upcards and downcards together.

(d) The hand does not contain the proper number of cards for that particular game (except at stud a hand missing the final card may be ruled live, and at lowball and draw high a hand with too few cards before the draw is live). [See Section 16 - “Explanations,” discussion #4, for more information on the stud portion of this rule.]

(e) You act on a hand with a joker as a holecard in a game not using a joker. (A player who acts on a hand without looking at a card assumes the liability of finding an improper card, as given in Irregularities, rule #8.)

(f) You have the clock on you when facing a bet or raise and exceed the specified time limit.

The counter argument was that it was a misdeal. The ruling was that Player 3's hand was dead and rest of the hand plays out as normal.

Two guys have folded out of turn and one guy has three cards? Lolselfdealaments

Not sure that two folds constitutes "action", but in any event, Misdeal. The community cards have changed because of what has happened.

I can't imagine a different ruling would be appropriate. Even if I'm in the bb with dem aces

Dead imo -  he has to insta-announce that he has too many cards.

Otherwise someone could try to get a freeroll eg raise and try to take the blinds and if that doesn't work call a misdeal.

Miss deal unless you're playing Pineapple.

Not playing Pineapple - but Robert's Rules does say that action is 2 players after the blinds acting on their hands. If action, cant be a misdeal. Doesnt say anything about being out of turn.

This could also lead to angleshooting by seats 4&5 - they had a bag of spanners, folded but now get the chance at a new hand.

Not a mis deal. His hand is dead. Carry on with the hand

Would you not then burn a card before the flop? That would be one way to resolve it, actually.

from a probability point of view it's irrelevant - as long his 3 cards are dead and face down it doesn't change the odds of any of the other hands.

If they're shown then do what you said.

Well, yes, but the sequence of cards after the cut has been fixed. Before the small blind receives his first card, the river has been decided. We just don't know what it is.

But it doesn't have to be, it's irrelevant - hence the reason why poker players get their knickers in a twist about rulings which involve shuffling the deck and playing the hand out.

You could shuffle the deck between each street and it would still be completely irrelevant if it wasn't for poker players being stupid about it.

I completely understand your argument. (One step further: in theory, the cards have no value until they are on their backs) I just don't agree with the application here.

The cards in a normal hand are dealt. At that point, the next eight cards in the deck are:

Burn 1
Flop 1
Flop 2
Flop 3
Burn 2
Turn
Burn 3
River

What value each of those cards has no relevance. We agree there. But they are the defined cards at that point that are either to be in play (in the case of cards 2,3,4,6 and 8 ) or to be burned (1,5 and 7). The action then takes place based on those facts.

Stud and draw games are different because those cards aren't yet determined.

I'm not taking offence at the implication, but I just think these are two valid and contrasting views of the same facts.

Schrodinger's deck.
The cards are not defined until their turned over surely :)

The cat is still the same cat!

Only Paul Daniels could switch the cats

Tal - the cards are dealt as per the rules.  In this case the rules state "no misdeal carry on as normal and don't fanny about discussing quantum physics"

Faor enough. If anyone wants me, I'll be in the corner, sulking in a minority of one.

 ;izimbra;

Action is on UTG with 3 cards isn't it?
4 and 5 out of turn so that is not classed as action. The player with 3 cards is first to speak, he should be saying he has 3 cards. If he acts and then notices he has 3 cards his hand is dead.

Action has not begun

Misdeal

In Roberts Rules, the 2 players acting is specific to the wrong number of cards scenario.  The definition of action for players acting out of turn is three in RR.

Perfect as always by Mr dik9.

Btw, generally nowadays, sufficient action is classed as 2 actions with chips, 3 without.

doubleup, we usually see eye to eye, but in this case i have to disagree for a couple of reasons.

firstly, rr and tda define significant action as 2 actions with chips, or 3 without. 2 folds out of turn is not significant.

But my issue is with the fact UTG has got 3 cards, hasn't done anything wrong (not tried to play or fold them). He is still first to act this is pivotal in my decision. UTG + 1 in a similar scenario would be having a dead hand called.

It is quite rare for a single player to have 3 cards and it not be the button or sb. Something went wrong with the hand and the person who should start the action has 3 cards.

Must buy beer :)

I just pointed out that in RR (widely accepted in card rooms) it is quite clear that the hand is dead.

I do think that ruling is a bit harsh, but shit happens.

It's been a while since I looked at RR but going on the OP's use. Using the , if I had aces utg+1 and noticed that utg has 3 cards and i deliberately quick call or raise out of turn are you saying that the hand stands now I have made action (be it out of turn)?

Edit: just read the whole of that RR quote and it seems to indicate that your point is valid, however as it is out of turn i would have to use rule 1.

RR states

 The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands.....

....An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player

Whether that is good bad or indifferent, it is quite clear.

sorry just edited

Just as a by the by, the dealer notices that at the point of noticing that utg has 3, he counts the mucked cards and there are 5? Same decision?

Obv call for a new non sticky deck.

btw the thing about the RR rule is that if you are in the BB and don't look at your cards until it is your turn to act, and see that you have 3 cards, your hand is dead.

So if everyone folds to you and your hand is dead -- what happens to the blinds?????