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Poker Forums => The Rail => Topic started by: TightEnd on February 05, 2014, 10:21:38 AM



Title: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: TightEnd on February 05, 2014, 10:21:38 AM
Not everyone's cup of tea, but talking a lot of sense....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5DXSIv8b4KM


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 05, 2014, 10:29:22 AM
Yup.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Tal on February 05, 2014, 10:32:08 AM
It's a brilliant interview.

He's retweeted this review:

http://www.allinmag.com/2014/02/04/aussie-aussie-aussie-oy-vey-oy-vey-oy-vey/

“I think poker is dying. And the reason it’s dying is it’s no longer fun for people to play. All these young geniuses at the table who don’t say a word, who bum out all the fish, as soon as the fish walks away from the table, the game breaks, whether it’s online or live … The reason that poker is so enjoyable for people is they go there and have fun.”




Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: dino1980 on February 05, 2014, 11:31:36 AM
Well he's not the first person to say that ^^^

Definitely agree with his comments on Gold and Yang though and their effect on the legacy of the world champion (leaving aside the background of some of the pre Moneymaker winners). However, since the move to the November 9 I think it's definitely harder and also less important for the WSOP winner to be an ambassador for poker. More to the point should they have to play that role?

On Tal's point, the players who've made the November 9 and best fulfilled that ambassadorial role haven't been the winners they've been people like Dennis Phillips, who've su,rprise surprise, made the game fun. He of course has plenty of years on the winners, like Hachem. It's probably on his Wikipedia, but Phillips did north of 150 interviews between July and November the year he made the final table. I did one of them in a hotel when EPT London came to town, I assume Dave Shoelace did too.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: lucky_scrote on February 05, 2014, 12:02:43 PM
Surely naturally the vibe of a new WSOP winner dies over time. I first started playing poker around the time moneymaker won the world series and it built up a big hype. People loved it, the internet poker boom was so fresh and everyone wanted to be involved. I think the fact that the poker boom is a long way behind us makes it less exciting now, I couldn't even tell you a single person who has won the world series since Duhamel.

Regards to people bum hunting and things being serious I do somewhat agree. When I first started everyone was pretty fun at the table, you don't see JP Kelly, Stu Rutter et al with headphones on and not muttering a word to anyone, they are themselves. I think with a huge influx of young players in the past 5 years has meant it has become a lot more cut-throat and serious, those people caring less about the social aspect and taking it a lot more seriously. Of course this is a lot less fun for the fish but so be it. If the big pro's want to get action in cash games from the fish then they need to offer a reason for them to do it and that is by creating a fun atmosphere to play in or just being a genuine sicko like Ivey. The miserable non-social poker players will never be considered "The elite" among the poker community (fishies and regs) whereas someone like Hellmuth (lol) would be.

So be it, poker is very very new and is always going to be evolving. New people will always be coming into the game and I imagine whatever they see on tv/the internet now will be appealing to them.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Karabiner on February 05, 2014, 12:16:53 PM
I'm not sure that I'd much like sitting on a table with eight Joe Hachems either.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: theprawnidentity on February 05, 2014, 12:41:49 PM
It's like with anything, you can't entertain all of the people all of the time.  Some people want to sit there quietly (and not just the younger generation) whereas others would rather sit round and converse with people and have a laugh.  Just recently at DTD I've had some really hostile tables which for me completely takes the fun out the game.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Marky147 on February 05, 2014, 01:32:38 PM
I'm not sure that I'd much like sitting on a table with eight Joe Hachems either.

Imagine that... Any 'one times' about?


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Woodsey on February 05, 2014, 01:47:55 PM
'Who gives a shit about his check raising range'  :D summed it up, my eyes glaze over when that chat starts  ;sleep;


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Tal on February 05, 2014, 01:55:47 PM
I'm not sure that I'd much like sitting on a table with eight Joe Hachems either.

Imagine that... Any 'one times' about?

Sugar everywhere


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: GreekStein on February 05, 2014, 05:18:47 PM
There has been a pretty big backlash lately from recreational players and older pros against youngsters. I find it quite boring.

I have more sympathy for complaints about online poker because of the way most regulars bumhunt and have such a selfish/short sighted view but can also understand the general detest for software like HUDs and Scripting even though some of the views on huds expressed by people who really don't know too much about them are very laughable.

The last 6 months I've spent very evenly between playing online and live cash games. In the live cash games I really wouldn't separate the behaviour of youngsters from the older crowd. In fact, you see far more berating of the dealers and slowrolling etc from older players like Hachem himself than you do from younger players. Imo this rant isn't totally about the youngsters demeanor. It's probably Hachem just venting about the fact it has become harder for him to win because the general standard has increased, because of young guys who actually work on their game.

Would have definitely given this rant about 100 times more credit had it come from someone like Greg Raymer. People just need to get over the fact that the general standard has increased so much and that's largely because of young guys.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Ironside on February 05, 2014, 05:27:17 PM
end of last year i went for my first live game of poker in a long time, hated every minute of it, no atmosphere even the older players i used to have banter with were nose deep in there Ipads


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Matt.NFFC. on February 05, 2014, 06:12:15 PM
I'd love there to be a rule of no ipads at the table etc.  Part of a poker night at DTD for me is a bit of a laugh with people who I don't know and to have a chat about football and stuff.

Shame that I probably get to say about 30 words all night!


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Junior Senior on February 05, 2014, 07:16:02 PM
I would welcome a rule of no phones, no ipads etc at the table. Just slows the game down and is antisocial.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: titaniumbean on February 05, 2014, 07:24:18 PM
I would welcome a rule of no phones, no ipads etc at the table. Just slows the game down and is antisocial.



I kinda have to point out that many of the older live 'players' are antisocial to the point of horrible and rude. Similarly many of them don't require ipads/phones/thoughts about why they do stuff to keep them busy they are brilliant at just not paying attention.

As with many rules in poker I can see the reasoning behind thinking to implement this but cant imagine it'd fix the problem it's trying to.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: polerization on February 05, 2014, 07:28:43 PM
I would welcome a rule of no phones, no ipads etc at the table. Just slows the game down and is antisocial.

Agree with this cards mucked when on phone/tablet ruling! and in general find a lot of regs are just antisocial, Im just a loud person so my table never tends to be quite but some people join in more than others.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Junior Senior on February 05, 2014, 08:09:36 PM
I would welcome a rule of no phones, no ipads etc at the table. Just slows the game down and is antisocial.



I kinda have to point out that many of the older live 'players' are antisocial to the point of horrible and rude. Similarly many of them don't require ipads/phones/thoughts about why they do stuff to keep them busy they are brilliant at just not paying attention.

As with many rules in poker I can see the reasoning behind thinking to implement this but cant imagine it'd fix the problem it's trying to.

Oh i agree and wasnt using age as a differentiator at all in this. I would just prefer it if people in general were helped with focussing on the game and not allowed to bury themselves in their phone or ipad. Phones at the table are bad.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: luther101 on February 05, 2014, 10:45:59 PM
Got to agree, the atmosphere in a lot of poker rooms nowadays is truly dire - loads of 'Billy-No-Mates' glued to their personal media devices    .....   which beautifully cover up the fact they have all the personality of a pickled walnut.

Praise the Lord that my 'local' is the Luton G where - most nights - it is compulsory to anti-rail Dean Morris whilst mercilessly ripping the piss out of each other!


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Woodsey on February 05, 2014, 10:54:01 PM
Got to agree, the atmosphere in a lot of poker rooms nowadays is truly dire - loads of 'Billy-No-Mates' glued to their personal media devices    .....   which beautifully cover up the fact they have all the personality of a pickled walnut.

Praise the Lord that my 'local' is the Luton G where - most nights - it is compulsory to anti-rail Dean Morris whilst mercilessly ripping the piss out of each other!

Played in a cash game there a couple of weeks back and it was good banter indeed!


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: MANTIS01 on February 05, 2014, 11:20:46 PM
What happened here is poker used to be a game for artists and then it fell into the hands of scientists. Hey presto.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: lucky_scrote on February 05, 2014, 11:27:18 PM
I remember 9 years ago (I'm an old youngun) I went down to play a cash game at Walsall whilst a festival was on and I thought I'd watch a movie on my brand new video iPod whilst playing. After delaying the game on a couple of hands because I didn't realise action was on me a casino reg said "C'mon mate this is a poker table not a cinema". I felt a bit embarrassed and put it away. It's become the norm now but I'd be totally up for banning of all electronic devices and sunglasses tbh.



Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: celtic on February 06, 2014, 12:43:49 AM
Sort of what Cos said. Over the last year, I'd say most of the problematic, argumentative, generally being a cock at the table has come from 40+ers. To put the blame solely down to the youngsters is wrong, IMO.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: The Camel on February 06, 2014, 12:48:45 AM
Hachem is a sanctimonious dick.

He moans and wails and complains all the effing time at the table.

Plus he has the ego the size of New South Wales.

I would 1000000000000000000 times enjoy playing poker with Jerry Yang than him.

Bore off.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: scotty77 on February 06, 2014, 12:57:32 AM
Don't think its just a young player problem now, just how society has moved on.

Have seen players of all ages and all nationalities whip out their phone and moan about hands/bad beats in a whatsapp group.

Also have played with Tony Hachem for a few hours.  Up there in the top 3 of biggest tossers I've ever had to share a table with.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: celtic on February 06, 2014, 12:58:52 AM
Don't think its just a young player problem now, just how society has moved on.

Have seen players of all ages and all nationalities whip out their phone and moan about hands/bad beats in a whatsapp group.

Also have played with Tony Hachem for a few hours.  Up there in the top 3 of biggest tossers I've ever had to share a table with.

Julian and who else make up the rest of the top 3? :)


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: scotty77 on February 06, 2014, 01:01:34 AM
Ummm theres a few who are up there. Just stick Chompy for now while I decide..


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: celtic on February 06, 2014, 01:02:51 AM
Chompy

Thanks for the quick answer.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: The Camel on February 06, 2014, 01:10:09 AM
Don't think its just a young player problem now, just how society has moved on.

Have seen players of all ages and all nationalities whip out their phone and moan about hands/bad beats in a whatsapp group.

Also have played with Tony Hachem for a few hours.  Up there in the top 3 of biggest tossers I've ever had to share a table with.

My favourite bit of railbirding came when Tony Hachem was a member of Team Pokerstars.

He was playing a $100 sng and I took the opportunity of winding him up from the rail.

"OMG! It's Tony Hachem! Tony, you are my favourite player in the world!"

"tyty"

"These guys have NO CHANCE against you! You will dazzle them into submission man! You are the best!"

"I dunno, these guys are tough, but thanks for the support"

"I was sooooooo happy when you won the WSOP Main Event, Aussie Aussie Aussie!"

"Umm actually it was my brother who won that"

"Oh. What have you won then?"

I was amused anyway :)


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Tal on February 06, 2014, 01:14:20 AM
Camel's right. It isn't just the young people.

:)


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: leethefish on February 06, 2014, 07:52:38 AM
Yup the amount of old dudes on iPads is funny. I don't mind because younger players seem better at discretely multi tasking...whereas older dudes, peer up from netflix or whatever...and you instantly see their eyes light up if they have a decent holding or flop. Kinda accentuates all the old nit warning signs. Let em keep iPads I say. Hell lets give em other stuff to distract em from the game too!

But back to the point, I don't think its an age problem I think its a general society problem. You see it with Mums at play places and parks now. Their kids desperately want attention or to play, the most precious years of their lives - and yet you see individuals or gangs of mums all staring into their phones on FB, playing Candy Crush or arranging the next shag or whatever they do.

Society issue, not an age issue IMO.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: GreekStein on February 06, 2014, 09:31:36 AM
The ipad/phone etc complaint is funny too. I've played some poker in Asia, Macau mainly but some other places too and even old guys are watching shows on their smart phones etc. Won't be too long before UK and other places catch up with that.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: tikay on February 06, 2014, 10:15:34 AM
So there is a problem with poker, Mr H voices an opinion, & it turns into a "young v old" debate.

At least three respondents on this thread complain about "old" players, despite being well the wrong side of 30, which, in poker terms, is not exactly young......

We don't need to point fingers at young or old, it is all of us, we just need to make just a little effort to make the poker world a more inviting place, or we'll all be bickering as the ship sinks.

How many who have responded on this thread actually take the time to introduce themselves to other players on their tables, or even say "Hi"?

It's just O Level social skills, & making just a tinsy-winsy bit of effort.

People don't HAVE to entertain others, of course they don't. Nor do they need to be insolent, & rude, which they are when they can't be arsed to exchange some civil pleasantries to get things started.

Phones & I-Pads?  This is 2014. We rely more on them than wristwatches these days, everyone has them. But if they inhibit convo - & they don't need to, most of us can multi-task - then blame the Organisers for allowing them. But if they get banned at Tables, await the hoohah, folks will be up in arms.

We all just need to make a little effort, instead of just pointing fingers at young/old/whatever. That won't solve a damn thing.

Poker is in decline. Let's all make an effort to arrest that, it's a grand game, able to be enjoyed by young & old equally.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: AndrewT on February 06, 2014, 10:23:20 AM
What's an 'O level', grandpa?


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: tikay on February 06, 2014, 10:25:28 AM
What's an 'O level', grandpa?

Do pay attention Andrew, it is the British Educational Exam System, GCE O & A Levels. "O" is ordinary, "A" Advanced.

I shamefully confess I failed eight O Levels, which must be some sort of record. I passed English Language though. Child prodigy.  


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: RED-DOG on February 06, 2014, 10:33:47 AM
I didn't fail any O levels.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Karabiner on February 06, 2014, 10:34:10 AM
What's an 'O level', grandpa?

Do pay attention Andrew, it is the British Educational Exam System, GCE O & A Levels. "O" is ordinary, "A" Advanced.

I shamefully confess I failed eight O Levels, which must be some sort of record. I passed English Language though. Child prodigy.  

I too got English Language but pride of place goes to my Latin O Level.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Mohican on February 06, 2014, 11:03:58 AM
I didn't fail any O levels.
Did you sit any???
I didn't fail any 'O' levels either. Mainly because I was the first year to sit GCSE's. 3 grade C's for the record. I don't suppose i would have done much better at 'O' levels either.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: celtic on February 06, 2014, 11:37:20 AM
I played poker with a 50 something person last night, he bad beat me, then dissected the hand for 15 mins with his friend the other side of me, telling him how right his play was etc. and how I could have done stuff different. Is that the kind of stuff I should be listening to?

I consider myself sociable at the table and away from it, but I think everyone has the right to listen to, or watch what they want when they are playing, as long as they aren't slowing down the game.



Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 06, 2014, 11:54:19 AM
What's an 'O level', grandpa?

Do pay attention Andrew, it is the British Educational Exam System, GCE O & A Levels. "O" is ordinary, "A" Advanced.

I shamefully confess I failed eight O Levels, which must be some sort of record. I passed English Language though. Child prodigy.  

If you've read Harry Potter, the "inspiration" for the name of the first exams they do is painfully obvious. That's how basically everyone in the younger generation knows what the "o" part of O level means, anyway!

For what it's worth, I think part of the problem is that everyone likes to copy everyone else. People are pack animals, and tend to pick up each others tendencies as a part of growing up. In the poker world, what this means is that as more and more people put their headphones in, the general trend will shift to this being the norm. If people begin to take out the headphones, then that will become the norm. As someone who rarely shuts up at the table, it bothers me when I feel the need to get my Ipod out to try and fix the boredom I feel when the others at the table have decided not to talk back. Increasingly, I feel, I am ending up doing just this.

The flip side to all this is that there are people that want to come and play the game, but are made nervous by the clique-y nature of casino crowds. For sure, the first time I played in the pub I turned up with an Ipod, and the first time I played in a casino I did the same. Over time as I got more comfortable with the regs, the headphones came off and the relentless piss taking started, but I certainly won't forget how intimidated I was by this the first time it happened. To be honest, I don't mind the odd person not interacting with the table, as long as they aren't significantly slowing down the action.

The best table I ever played on was at the GPS in Stoke last year. It had nothing to do with the standard of play, but the banter that came from it. When I arrived at the table, everyone was pretty much silent, and I turned up in a hoodie and cold 4bet the first hand I sat down. The original raiser looked pretty pissed, and when the bet got through I flipped over KK and told the table that I think it's really bad manners to sit at a new table and raise before I've at least said hello. The affect was pretty much instantaneous, everyone seemed to relax, say hello and want to get involved in the conversation. Pretty much the whole table got involved in the conversation, apart from one guy wearing a genting patch, with the whole sunglasses, hood up, headphones in, covering his mouth when he was in a hand routine. I thought this was a pretty terrible advert for the people he was representing, and after gently, but fairly relentlessly, taking the piss out of the guy he took the headphones out and joined in. I must have been sat at that table for about nine hours, but it flew by. Hopefully this will be a an experience that they remember, that will prompt them to come and play again. Who knows. Wonder how Paul Ho found it :p


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 06, 2014, 11:55:16 AM
What's an 'O level', grandpa?

Do pay attention Andrew, it is the British Educational Exam System, GCE O & A Levels. "O" is ordinary, "A" Advanced.

I shamefully confess I failed eight O Levels, which must be some sort of record. I passed English Language though. Child prodigy.  

I too got English Language but pride of place goes to my Latin O Level.

Does a GCSE in Ancient Greek have a place in this competition? ;)


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: GreekStein on February 06, 2014, 12:02:23 PM
We don't need to point fingers at young or old, it is all of us, we just need to make just a little effort to make the poker world a more inviting place, or we'll all be bickering as the ship sinks.

Teeks you do realise you've probably thrown more jabs at young players and internet 'kidz' on here than probably the rest of blonde combined.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 06, 2014, 12:10:07 PM
We don't need to point fingers at young or old, it is all of us, we just need to make just a little effort to make the poker world a more inviting place, or we'll all be bickering as the ship sinks.

Teeks you do realise you've probably thrown more jabs at young players and internet 'kidz' on here than probably the rest of blonde combined.

In the interests of balance, I think Tikay should start his next show with the words "yo, sup everybody, teeks in the house."


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: AndrewT on February 06, 2014, 12:17:44 PM
What's an 'O level', grandpa?

Do pay attention Andrew, it is the British Educational Exam System, GCE O & A Levels. "O" is ordinary, "A" Advanced.

I shamefully confess I failed eight O Levels, which must be some sort of record. I passed English Language though. Child prodigy.   

I too got English Language but pride of place goes to my Latin O Level.

Of course, when Ralph sat his Latin O Level it was classed as Modern Language.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: pleno1 on February 06, 2014, 12:19:37 PM
Sick 9 hours brag rexas!

We don't need to point fingers at young or old, it is all of us, we just need to make just a little effort to make the poker world a more inviting place, or we'll all be bickering as the ship sinks.

Teeks you do realise you've probably thrown more jabs at young players and internet 'kidz' on here than probably the rest of blonde combined.

This.

I would say that the one time we both played together was the main event, on the table I think you only looked up from your iPad to talk to me, all of the young guys were talking and chatting and there was another older guy who didn't say a word. The young guys absolutely did not look down on you for being on your iPad 99% of the time. If there was 7 guys on the "wrong side of 30" talking and chatting and 2 young guys on iPods 99% of the time they would be looked at so differently.

I have been treated badly and intimidated probably 15 times on a poker table almost every time was against somebody the wrong side of 40. I still every time I sit down try and speak to anybody who is around me ask them how they are, who they are, how old their daughter is etc! If there was an older guy who was threatened or sworn at by 15 different young guys in hoodies I don't think they would be so open.

The young guys who squeeze their hand out super slowly, recheck, pull the cards back again, stack out their raise then throw it over into,the pot re completely ridiculous, but they really really love doing it and being "that" guy and that's why they come back.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: edgascoigne on February 06, 2014, 12:45:09 PM
I still every time I sit down try and speak to anybody who is around me ask them how they are, who they are, how old their daughter is etc!

I can't for the life of me think how you've encountered hostility at the table ;)


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: tikay on February 06, 2014, 12:55:37 PM
We don't need to point fingers at young or old, it is all of us, we just need to make just a little effort to make the poker world a more inviting place, or we'll all be bickering as the ship sinks.

Teeks you do realise you've probably thrown more jabs at young players and internet 'kidz' on here than probably the rest of blonde combined.

Yup, I do, Mr 42 year old Cos.

We are debating a problem here, & you & me can point all the fingers we like, & score points galore if we wish, but how will that solve anything?

I make my points as I see them, honestly & politely. There will always be a young/old divide, that is the very nature of things.

Poker has a problem. It is in decline. We ought to try & address it, not score points.   


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: tikay on February 06, 2014, 12:56:34 PM
What's an 'O level', grandpa?

Do pay attention Andrew, it is the British Educational Exam System, GCE O & A Levels. "O" is ordinary, "A" Advanced.

I shamefully confess I failed eight O Levels, which must be some sort of record. I passed English Language though. Child prodigy.  

If you've read Harry Potter, the "inspiration" for the name of the first exams they do is painfully obvious. That's how basically everyone in the younger generation knows what the "o" part of O level means, anyway!

For what it's worth, I think part of the problem is that everyone likes to copy everyone else. People are pack animals, and tend to pick up each others tendencies as a part of growing up. In the poker world, what this means is that as more and more people put their headphones in, the general trend will shift to this being the norm. If people begin to take out the headphones, then that will become the norm. As someone who rarely shuts up at the table, it bothers me when I feel the need to get my Ipod out to try and fix the boredom I feel when the others at the table have decided not to talk back. Increasingly, I feel, I am ending up doing just this.

The flip side to all this is that there are people that want to come and play the game, but are made nervous by the clique-y nature of casino crowds. For sure, the first time I played in the pub I turned up with an Ipod, and the first time I played in a casino I did the same. Over time as I got more comfortable with the regs, the headphones came off and the relentless piss taking started, but I certainly won't forget how intimidated I was by this the first time it happened. To be honest, I don't mind the odd person not interacting with the table, as long as they aren't significantly slowing down the action.

The best table I ever played on was at the GPS in Stoke last year. It had nothing to do with the standard of play, but the banter that came from it. When I arrived at the table, everyone was pretty much silent, and I turned up in a hoodie and cold 4bet the first hand I sat down. The original raiser looked pretty pissed, and when the bet got through I flipped over KK and told the table that I think it's really bad manners to sit at a new table and raise before I've at least said hello. The affect was pretty much instantaneous, everyone seemed to relax, say hello and want to get involved in the conversation. Pretty much the whole table got involved in the conversation, apart from one guy wearing a genting patch, with the whole sunglasses, hood up, headphones in, covering his mouth when he was in a hand routine. I thought this was a pretty terrible advert for the people he was representing, and after gently, but fairly relentlessly, taking the piss out of the guy he took the headphones out and joined in. I must have been sat at that table for about nine hours, but it flew by. Hopefully this will be a an experience that they remember, that will prompt them to come and play again. Who knows. Wonder how Paul Ho found it :p

That is a brilliant Post.

Amen to almost all of that.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: tikay on February 06, 2014, 01:03:02 PM
Sick 9 hours brag rexas!

We don't need to point fingers at young or old, it is all of us, we just need to make just a little effort to make the poker world a more inviting place, or we'll all be bickering as the ship sinks.

Teeks you do realise you've probably thrown more jabs at young players and internet 'kidz' on here than probably the rest of blonde combined.

This.

I would say that the one time we both played together was the main event, on the table I think you only looked up from your iPad to talk to me, all of the young guys were talking and chatting and there was another older guy who didn't say a word. The young guys absolutely did not look down on you for being on your iPad 99% of the time. If there was 7 guys on the "wrong side of 30" talking and chatting and 2 young guys on iPods 99% of the time they would be looked at so differently.

I have been treated badly and intimidated probably 15 times on a poker table almost every time was against somebody the wrong side of 40. I still every time I sit down try and speak to anybody who is around me ask them how they are, who they are, how old their daughter is etc! If there was an older guy who was threatened or sworn at by 15 different young guys in hoodies I don't think they would be so open.

The young guys who squeeze their hand out super slowly, recheck, pull the cards back again, stack out their raise then throw it over into,the pot re completely ridiculous, but they really really love doing it and being "that" guy and that's why they come back.


Back to young/old again, ugh.

Only time we've shared a Table? I think not.

My recollection of that Table at the WSOP differs from yours, though I was there a little longer than you were, as you (very unluckily) exited about 30 minutes in. ;)

Be really good if we could get constructive here, & see how we can make poker tables a more welcoming environment. There will always be a young/old divide, nothing will solve that. We can make poker a better place though, you, & me, & everyone else, if we make a little effort instead of finger-jabbing.

So, let's get constructive instead of defensive, what would YOU do to make poker better, & help arrest the decline, Mr Plinop?


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: theprawnidentity on February 06, 2014, 01:24:39 PM
I got GCSE's therefore I must be young!

thin


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: AlunB on February 06, 2014, 01:47:46 PM
Agree with the couple of people who said poker reflects society. Poker is a mainstream thing now, so why should it be any different to mainstream society? Most people I've met in my life are nice, fairly anonymous and a bit boring. Who do you think buys all those Keane albums? As for people on their iphones have you been to a football match or a concert recently? That's just how it is.

I must admit I'm not even sure what point Hachem is trying to make here. Does anyone else know?


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: pleno1 on February 06, 2014, 01:51:55 PM
Sick 9 hours brag rexas!

We don't need to point fingers at young or old, it is all of us, we just need to make just a little effort to make the poker world a more inviting place, or we'll all be bickering as the ship sinks.

Teeks you do realise you've probably thrown more jabs at young players and internet 'kidz' on here than probably the rest of blonde combined.

This.

I would say that the one time we both played together was the main event, on the table I think you only looked up from your iPad to talk to me, all of the young guys were talking and chatting and there was another older guy who didn't say a word. The young guys absolutely did not look down on you for being on your iPad 99% of the time. If there was 7 guys on the "wrong side of 30" talking and chatting and 2 young guys on iPods 99% of the time they would be looked at so differently.

I have been treated badly and intimidated probably 15 times on a poker table almost every time was against somebody the wrong side of 40. I still every time I sit down try and speak to anybody who is around me ask them how they are, who they are, how old their daughter is etc! If there was an older guy who was threatened or sworn at by 15 different young guys in hoodies I don't think they would be so open.

The young guys who squeeze their hand out super slowly, recheck, pull the cards back again, stack out their raise then throw it over into,the pot re completely ridiculous, but they really really love doing it and being "that" guy and that's why they come back.


Back to young/old again, ugh.

Only time we've shared a Table? I think not.

My recollection of that Table at the WSOP differs from yours, though I was there a little longer than you were, as you (very unluckily) exited about 30 minutes in. ;)

Be really good if we could get constructive here, & see how we can make poker tables a more welcoming environment. There will always be a young/old divide, nothing will solve that. We can make poker a better place though, you, & me, & everyone else, if we make a little effort instead of finger-jabbing.

So, let's get constructive instead of defensive, what would YOU do to make poker better, & help arrest the decline, Mr Plinop?

Mandatory Bacardi breezer upon arrival to table.


:)


Everybody speaks about how awful everything is but in reality there is more and more guaranteed tournaments every week smashing prize pools, it's jut society where the problem is and poker definitely doesn't seem to be struggling because of it.

We're in a recession still where everybody is broke and still week in week out you get thousands of punters playing live tournaments.

Stuff such as the ukpc, ukipt, GPS all do such a good job.

Being in a bar with 6 friends and 5 of them being on their phones checking instagram, Facebook or blonde :D is where the real problem lies IMO


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: pleno1 on February 06, 2014, 01:53:55 PM
Agree with the couple of people who said poker reflects society. Poker is a mainstream thing now, so why should it be any different to mainstream society? Most people I've met in my life are nice, fairly anonymous and a bit boring. Who do you think buys all those Keane albums? As for people on their iphones have you been to a football match or a concert recently? That's just how it is.

I must admit I'm not even sure what point Hachem is trying to make here. Does anyone else know?

I guess he got dropped by stars and has got the hump.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 06, 2014, 02:11:46 PM
Sick 9 hours brag rexas!

Ikr, can't miss those "almost cashed" brags ;)

I do honestly think the community needs to grow up, stop blaming each other and make a concerted effort to get poker out of the muck. One of the things I saw pretty regularly at dtd was the people in the £10 beginners comp having a fantastic time, chatting away, really getting in to the game. Someone would stand up and shout after binking a river card or winning a big pot, and almost without fail there would be a chorus of people sitting in the bigger games making snide remarks and throwing them condescending looks. I can't stand seeing that. I think it's fantastic that there are people that still enjoy the game for what it is, and even though I've become pretty jaded by it, I salute those people that honestly feel excited by winning those pots. More than that, I envy them. We're all to blame for creating this sort of hostility, and we are all responsible for doing our bit to sort it the fuck out!


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: titaniumbean on February 06, 2014, 02:13:40 PM
What's an 'O level', grandpa?

Do pay attention Andrew, it is the British Educational Exam System, GCE O & A Levels. "O" is ordinary, "A" Advanced.

I shamefully confess I failed eight O Levels, which must be some sort of record. I passed English Language though. Child prodigy.   

I too got English Language but pride of place goes to my Latin O Level.

Of course, when Ralph sat his Latin O Level it was classed as Modern Language.


bam


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: pleno1 on February 06, 2014, 02:13:53 PM
why is poker in the muck? there is often 3/4 big tournaments on the same day and all with 100s of runners.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Karabiner on February 06, 2014, 02:18:17 PM
What's an 'O level', grandpa?

Do pay attention Andrew, it is the British Educational Exam System, GCE O & A Levels. "O" is ordinary, "A" Advanced.

I shamefully confess I failed eight O Levels, which must be some sort of record. I passed English Language though. Child prodigy.   

I too got English Language but pride of place goes to my Latin O Level.

Of course, when Ralph sat his Latin O Level it was classed as Modern Language.

When I sat my English Literature exam one of the set books was by Chaucer.

Chaucer ffs. Proud to say that I failed that one.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 06, 2014, 02:18:46 PM
why is poker in the muck? there is often 3/4 big tournaments on the same day and all with 100s of runners.

Cash games are completely dead outside of London, and there are still a lot of comps failing to hit their guarantees. Maybe I'm getting a bad view of it from Notts/Essex, but for the most part the people I see in cash games are almost entirely regs, and even those guys are starting to stop coming. Seems everyone is either broke, a "pro" or moving down the stakes.

Shout out to cambridgealex currently lurking itt, the fourth option is they become "cash cows" ;)


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: DungBeetle on February 06, 2014, 02:20:05 PM
Agree with the couple of people who said poker reflects society. Poker is a mainstream thing now, so why should it be any different to mainstream society? Most people I've met in my life are nice, fairly anonymous and a bit boring. Who do you think buys all those Keane albums? As for people on their iphones have you been to a football match or a concert recently? That's just how it is.

I must admit I'm not even sure what point Hachem is trying to make here. Does anyone else know?

Whether he is right or wrong I don't know, his point is that the older pros knew that they needed to keep their customers entertained (or at least feel welcome) whereas the new breed of young pros don't understand this side of their trade with their incessant analysis of hands and talk of ranges.  I assume this is his point, and that the failure of the younger generation of pros to understand this will result in less recreational players which reduces profitability.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: pleno1 on February 06, 2014, 02:23:53 PM
why is poker in the muck? there is often 3/4 big tournaments on the same day and all with 100s of runners.

Cash games are completely dead outside of London, and there are still a lot of comps failing to hit their guarantees. Maybe I'm getting a bad view of it from Notts/Essex, but for the most part the people I see in cash games are almost entirely regs, and even those guys are starting to stop coming. Seems everyone is either broke, a "pro" or moving down the stakes.

Shout out to cambridgealex currently lurking itt, the fourth option is they become "cash cows" ;)

id say

1/ for recs the allure of a huge prizepool for 50 quid buy in is way more attractive, these players havent dissapeared they have just moved onto the tournament scene
2/ the rake is really big, means players go bust quicker
3/ no rakeback

in Newcastle they have cash game leagues where every hour you spend you get x chips then at the end of the month there is a cash league, there is additional rake but it makes people come back and works well.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 06, 2014, 02:28:28 PM
why is poker in the muck? there is often 3/4 big tournaments on the same day and all with 100s of runners.

Cash games are completely dead outside of London, and there are still a lot of comps failing to hit their guarantees. Maybe I'm getting a bad view of it from Notts/Essex, but for the most part the people I see in cash games are almost entirely regs, and even those guys are starting to stop coming. Seems everyone is either broke, a "pro" or moving down the stakes.

Shout out to cambridgealex currently lurking itt, the fourth option is they become "cash cows" ;)

id say

1/ for recs the allure of a huge prizepool for 50 quid buy in is way more attractive, these players havent dissapeared they have just moved onto the tournament scene
2/ the rake is really big, means players go bust quicker
3/ no rakeback

in Newcastle they have cash game leagues where every hour you spend you get x chips then at the end of the month there is a cash league, there is additional rake but it makes people come back and works well.

1/ Can't argue with that logic, although it does overall seem that there are way less people than there used to be
2/ I think this is probably a knock on effect of there being less people in the cardrooms, hence a need to increase rake to maintain the place itself. What do you think the rake should be?
3/ Definitely agree that the lack of incentives is a major issue for games at the moment. In the G they've been dealing a player rake free for an hour at a time, which I think is fun, but doesn't reward people for coming back. Some sort of rewards system would be fantastic, and perhaps help to justify the larger rake?


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 06, 2014, 02:29:03 PM
I still every time I sit down try and speak to anybody who is around me ask them how they are, who they are, how old their daughter is etc!

I can't for the life of me think how you've encountered hostility at the table ;)

(http://geofflivingston.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/grinch.jpeg)


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: AlunB on February 06, 2014, 02:30:36 PM
Agree with the couple of people who said poker reflects society. Poker is a mainstream thing now, so why should it be any different to mainstream society? Most people I've met in my life are nice, fairly anonymous and a bit boring. Who do you think buys all those Keane albums? As for people on their iphones have you been to a football match or a concert recently? That's just how it is.

I must admit I'm not even sure what point Hachem is trying to make here. Does anyone else know?

Whether he is right or wrong I don't know, his point is that the older pros knew that they needed to keep their customers entertained (or at least feel welcome) whereas the new breed of young pros don't understand this side of their trade with their incessant analysis of hands and talk of ranges.  I assume this is his point, and that the failure of the younger generation of pros to understand this will result in less recreational players which reduces profitability.

Ta. That's what I assumed. That has almost nothing and is almost diametrically opposed to Gold and Yang ruining the legacy though, which is why I was confused. I'm not sure he has a 'point' as such just lots of little things he doesn't like, which basically amounts to 'things aren't how they used to be'.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: DungBeetle on February 06, 2014, 02:33:57 PM
yeah - you are right in that the Yang/Gold link doesn't help his argument.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: AlunB on February 06, 2014, 02:37:01 PM
yeah - you are right in that the Yang/Gold link doesn't help his argument.

Which is ironic as that's probably something most people would agree with him on. Doubly ironic as they were both big characters in their own way.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: DungBeetle on February 06, 2014, 02:47:30 PM
Personally I agree with Hachem.

I'd class myself as a recreational player, and probably someone pros would want to play with.  I used to play cash games around England but found after a few years of great fun, that the new players I would be sitting with just became incredibly dull.  I'm sure they are nice people but it wasn't what I wanted from a night out.  People rarely drank anything and 90% of the table talk was hand analysis and talk of value ranges and online tournament schedules.  This isn't necessarily a dig at younger players as even older players are at it as well I've noticed.  I'm in my mid 30s for a sense of perspective.

Consequently I just stopped playing in the UK unless it is a private game where I know who is playing.  I'll still play in Vegas or Ireland and make annual trips specifically for that purpose where I find the game far more fun and people take it less seriously.

The question is how many people like me think this way?  If it's just me then obviously it's not an issue.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: George2Loose on February 06, 2014, 02:52:34 PM
I'm in two minds about this. When he says older players know how to treat the recreational players does that basically mean laugh at jokes that aren't funny and generally patronise them so they feel "entertained"?

I don't agree with him personally. Pokers just evolving not dying. Agree with some of what Cos said- it's just not as easy for him to turn up and beat the game anymore. It's the fact he might actually have to work for his money that's caused resentment and he's used the online players as a scapegoat.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 06, 2014, 02:54:29 PM
Personally I agree with Hachem.

I'd class myself as a recreational player, and probably someone pros would want to play with.  I used to play cash games around England but found after a few years of great fun, that the new players I would be sitting with just became incredibly dull.  I'm sure they are nice people but it wasn't what I wanted from a night out.  People rarely drank anything and 90% of the table talk was hand analysis and talk of value ranges and online tournament schedules.  This isn't necessarily a dig at younger players as even older players are at it as well I've noticed.  I'm in my mid 30s for a sense of perspective.

Consequently I just stopped playing in the UK unless it is a private game where I know who is playing.  I'll still play in Vegas or Ireland and make annual trips specifically for that purpose where I find the game far more fun and people take it less seriously.

The question is how many people like me think this way?  If it's just me then obviously it's not an issue.

I actually partially do. I find all this talk of hand histories and ranges to be ridiculously dull, and definitely one of the best ways to alienate most of the table from the conversation.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: mumblesrock on February 06, 2014, 03:05:52 PM
when youve played poker for several years at any level...... you get sick of ABC talk in poker on the tables...... dull, dull dull.
its ment to be entertaining and if a nice score comes your way, happy days.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: tonytats on February 06, 2014, 03:14:06 PM
Personally I agree with Hachem.

I'd class myself as a recreational player, and probably someone pros would want to play with.  I used to play cash games around England but found after a few years of great fun, that the new players I would be sitting with just became incredibly dull.  I'm sure they are nice people but it wasn't what I wanted from a night out.  People rarely drank anything and 90% of the table talk was hand analysis and talk of value ranges and online tournament schedules.  This isn't necessarily a dig at younger players as even older players are at it as well I've noticed.  I'm in my mid 30s for a sense of perspective.

Consequently I just stopped playing in the UK unless it is a private game where I know who is playing.  I'll still play in Vegas or Ireland and make annual trips specifically for that purpose where I find the game far more fun and people take it less seriously.

The question is how many people like me think this way?  If it's just me then obviously it's not an issue.

It's exactly how I feel good , very post mate ,I rarely if ever play cash now ,I would rather have a spin on roulette win or lose go home,
 rather than go home pissed off that some player I didn't like got it ,been like that for a long time now too


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: AndrewT on February 06, 2014, 04:35:17 PM
What's an 'O level', grandpa?

Do pay attention Andrew, it is the British Educational Exam System, GCE O & A Levels. "O" is ordinary, "A" Advanced.

I shamefully confess I failed eight O Levels, which must be some sort of record. I passed English Language though. Child prodigy.   

I too got English Language but pride of place goes to my Latin O Level.

Of course, when Ralph sat his Latin O Level it was classed as Modern Language.

When I sat my English Literature exam one of the set books was by Chaucer.

Was the ink still wet?


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: doubleup on February 06, 2014, 04:46:55 PM
What's an 'O level', grandpa?

Do pay attention Andrew, it is the British Educational Exam System, GCE O & A Levels. "O" is ordinary, "A" Advanced.

I shamefully confess I failed eight O Levels, which must be some sort of record. I passed English Language though. Child prodigy.   

I too got English Language but pride of place goes to my Latin O Level.

Of course, when Ralph sat his Latin O Level it was classed as Modern Language.

When I sat my English Literature exam one of the set books was by Chaucer.

Was the ink still wet?


For youthe and elde is often at debaat



Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: leethefish on February 06, 2014, 06:19:07 PM
My highlighted point earlier it's all of us to blame not young or old .....

One of my best days at a poker table was when I sat next to Tommy Bingham for the first time (ispt I think).... Anyway we chatted all day and found out loads about each other never spoke to him before that day.

My worst was was a deep stack a few moths ago where I attempted to make small talk with my table and no one engaged ! I found it very frustrating ....this was a mixture if young and old.

We all need to make an effort


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: welsh1980 on February 06, 2014, 06:36:00 PM
4 bottles of WKD I will talk all day (but no-one understands me )  ;izimbra;


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: david3103 on February 06, 2014, 07:54:53 PM
4 bottles of WKD I will talk all day (but no-one understands me )  ;izimbra;

Pleno manages more than that and still crushes 1000NL


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: kano on February 06, 2014, 08:31:22 PM
Great blog by Dara O'Kearney on the matter - http://dokearney.blogspot.ie/2014/02/old-school-new-school-or-back-to-school.html


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: titaniumbean on February 06, 2014, 08:36:16 PM
Great blog by Dara O'Kearney on the matter - http://dokearney.blogspot.ie/2014/02/old-school-new-school-or-back-to-school.html

Fab line

"On one side, you have guys like Joe Hachem who play maybe 30 live tournaments a year and therefore have to depend on other income streams such as sponsorships, ambassadorial roles and media work while they hope to run way above expectation again over a tiny sample. "


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: BangBang on February 06, 2014, 08:39:34 PM
It's not a New School vs Old School thing at all... I can give you many examples of anti social and rude old players as well as young..

People just need to stop taking themselves so seriously and enjoy the game...

That's all... 


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: action man on February 06, 2014, 11:34:07 PM
when people say, 'good for the game' they almost always mean, 'good for myself'


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Karabiner on February 06, 2014, 11:43:34 PM
Great blog by Dara O'Kearney on the matter - http://dokearney.blogspot.ie/2014/02/old-school-new-school-or-back-to-school.html

Good article, not completely sure about "embiggened" though..


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: AndrewT on February 06, 2014, 11:48:30 PM
Great blog by Dara O'Kearney on the matter - http://dokearney.blogspot.ie/2014/02/old-school-new-school-or-back-to-school.html

Good article, not completely sure about "embiggened" though..

It's a perfectly cromulent word.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: MANTIS01 on February 07, 2014, 12:36:53 AM
Great blog by Dara O'Kearney on the matter - http://dokearney.blogspot.ie/2014/02/old-school-new-school-or-back-to-school.html

Fab line

"On one side, you have guys like Joe Hachem who play maybe 30 live tournaments a year and therefore have to depend on other income streams such as sponsorships, ambassadorial roles and media work while they hope to run way above expectation again over a tiny sample. "

Isn't playing relatively few live comps a year and hoping to run way above expectation the aspiration or every recreational poker player? So you see I don't get why it's a fab line cos the dude seems to be sneering at his bread and butter which is kinda "childish and self-defeating", only it's in his workplace and not the classroom.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: DungBeetle on February 07, 2014, 09:29:39 AM
Great blog by Dara O'Kearney on the matter - http://dokearney.blogspot.ie/2014/02/old-school-new-school-or-back-to-school.html

I think this blog encapsulates exactly what Hachem is trying to explain.

The writer talks Hachem down before saying how interesting his online buddies are compared to Ulliott, but can't help but refer to all their online handles, as if it is somekind of badge of honour and that I should have heard of theor greatness.

He then comes up with such pearls as:

"you have the young who have inherited the poker earth"
"it is now dominated by driven young geniuses"

As a recreational player, I can say with almost 100% certainty that he and his dull online buddies would be the last people I would want to share a table with.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: DungBeetle on February 07, 2014, 09:39:44 AM
Oh - the article goes on further.  This paragraph shows, I would suggest, that the writer simply doesn't understand the point that Hachem is trying to make.

"Those who claim it's no longer social don't understand what social is these days. It's not just the same old jokes and withered anecdotes endlessly repeated at live poker tables. It's Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, blogs, forums, Viber, Snapchat, Whatsapp. Every day I interact with people like Willie,  people I genuinely like and care about and share interests with rather than just random people I got drawn at a poker table with and have to find some way to put up with for a few hours. TrueIrishBaller tweeted:   "I have been berated more times by so called 'rec players' than I have by any pro. At least when the good players berate you they have substance.  A high % of recreational players are horrible, degen scum that I want absolutely nothing to do with. #headphonesplease""

Basically he's saying he only wants to talk to other young people who like the same things as he does.  He's made Hachem's point for him beautifully.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Woodsey on February 07, 2014, 10:03:00 AM
Personally I agree with Hachem.

I'd class myself as a recreational player, and probably someone pros would want to play with.  I used to play cash games around England but found after a few years of great fun, that the new players I would be sitting with just became incredibly dull.  I'm sure they are nice people but it wasn't what I wanted from a night out.  People rarely drank anything and 90% of the table talk was hand analysis and talk of value ranges and online tournament schedules.  This isn't necessarily a dig at younger players as even older players are at it as well I've noticed.  I'm in my mid 30s for a sense of perspective.

Consequently I just stopped playing in the UK unless it is a private game where I know who is playing.  I'll still play in Vegas or Ireland and make annual trips specifically for that purpose where I find the game far more fun and people take it less seriously.

The question is how many people like me think this way?  If it's just me then obviously it's not an issue.

I can relate to that.  For me a few beers and a bit of craic are as important as the poker itself. The games have changed so much that you probably mostly sit with people that are taking it more seriously than before (and why wouldn't they if there is significant money involved). So if I'm donking around with a couple of bottles of wine inside me like I would a few years back there is only going to be one result, that just stops me wanting to play, and no I can't be arsed going there and not drinking, if it's the weekend I want a few its part of enjoying myself  :cheers:

Maybe DTD can start running a cash game where you need to blow into a breathalyzer and confirm an alcohol level of xxx to play?  :D


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: DungBeetle on February 07, 2014, 10:14:41 AM
Haha - that's a great idea.   If you fall below a certain percentage of alcohol then a red light flashes above your chair and it tilts back for the Gazza style dentist chair treatment before you get dealt anymore cards.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: david3103 on February 07, 2014, 10:16:04 AM
Seems to be more of an Online v Live thing than Young v Old

Online players with their 'Come back when you've played a million hands' v live players with their 'it's all about the read and the situation'

As a rec, I want to play live. Hachem's interview was about live poker and struck chords for me. I want to enjoy the game, I prefer to win, but I'd rather be losing a little at a table full of craic and laughter than winning a little at a table full of silence and posing.



Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: titaniumbean on February 07, 2014, 01:20:03 PM
Great blog by Dara O'Kearney on the matter - http://dokearney.blogspot.ie/2014/02/old-school-new-school-or-back-to-school.html

Fab line

"On one side, you have guys like Joe Hachem who play maybe 30 live tournaments a year and therefore have to depend on other income streams such as sponsorships, ambassadorial roles and media work while they hope to run way above expectation again over a tiny sample. "

Isn't playing relatively few live comps a year and hoping to run way above expectation the aspiration or every recreational poker player? So you see I don't get why it's a fab line cos the dude seems to be sneering at his bread and butter which is kinda "childish and self-defeating", only it's in his workplace and not the classroom.


Hachem is classless and is calling out other people for being classless. We only know his name because of a single super heater.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Tal on February 07, 2014, 01:21:48 PM
Great blog by Dara O'Kearney on the matter - http://dokearney.blogspot.ie/2014/02/old-school-new-school-or-back-to-school.html

Fab line

"On one side, you have guys like Joe Hachem who play maybe 30 live tournaments a year and therefore have to depend on other income streams such as sponsorships, ambassadorial roles and media work while they hope to run way above expectation again over a tiny sample. "

Isn't playing relatively few live comps a year and hoping to run way above expectation the aspiration or every recreational poker player? So you see I don't get why it's a fab line cos the dude seems to be sneering at his bread and butter which is kinda "childish and self-defeating", only it's in his workplace and not the classroom.


Hachem is classless and is calling out other people for being classless. We only know his name because of a single super heater.

He wasn't a one off luckbox. He's won a few other comps a lot of us would be pretty happy to call our biggest result.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: theprawnidentity on February 07, 2014, 01:29:02 PM
Haha - that's a great idea.   If you fall below a certain percentage of alcohol then a red light flashes above your chair and it tilts back for the Gazza style dentist chair treatment before you get dealt anymore cards.

Imagine Rob trying to explain this to the alcohol license people....

"We definitely promote safe drinking and would always refuse to serve people if we think they've had too much.  WAIT, THERE'S SOMEONE SOBER AT THE GAZZA TABLE, GET THE FUNNEL!!!!!!"


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Woodsey on February 07, 2014, 01:40:04 PM
Haha - that's a great idea.   If you fall below a certain percentage of alcohol then a red light flashes above your chair and it tilts back for the Gazza style dentist chair treatment before you get dealt anymore cards.

Imagine Rob trying to explain this to the alcohol license people....

"We definitely promote safe drinking and would always refuse to serve people if we think they've had too much.  WAIT, THERE'S SOMEONE SOBER AT THE GAZZA TABLE, GET THE FUNNEL!!!!!!"

I am willing to sign a disclaimer lol


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Pinchop73 on February 07, 2014, 01:54:29 PM
Professionals want/need to earn money.

Recreationals want to have fun.

Infinite divergence in disparity.

Excellent professionals make an attempt to keep this disparity at a a minimum.

Average professionals go out of their way to make these two statements diverge to such an extent that the game no longer exists.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: david3103 on February 07, 2014, 03:22:54 PM
Professionals want/need to earn money.

Recreationals want to have fun.

Infinite divergence in disparity.

Excellent professionals make an attempt to keep this disparity at a a minimum.

Average professionals go out of their way to make these two statements diverge to such an extent that the game no longer exists.

Succinct and hits nail cleanly on head.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: rfgqqabc on February 08, 2014, 01:28:29 AM
why is poker in the muck? there is often 3/4 big tournaments on the same day and all with 100s of runners.

Cash games are completely dead outside of London, and there are still a lot of comps failing to hit their guarantees. Maybe I'm getting a bad view of it from Notts/Essex, but for the most part the people I see in cash games are almost entirely regs, and even those guys are starting to stop coming. Seems everyone is either broke, a "pro" or moving down the stakes.

Shout out to cambridgealex currently lurking itt, the fourth option is they become "cash cows" ;)

£1/2 runs in a bunch of places if you know where to look. NE definitely has it 5-7 nights a week, Sheffield/Leeds both run a bunch. DTD isn't the only cardroom outside of London.

Incredibly dull topic.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: SuuPRlim on February 08, 2014, 12:36:19 PM
I agree with Tikay - the old young debate is just finger pointing and defensiveness "Old says young is boring, so young say old is rude" and so on.

The reason this debate has spiraled out is because far too much practical professional gambling strategy has been talked about and posted on forums and in public. People have written articles about game selecting and blogged about "fish" and so on, it's a clear example, as Tikay said of some bright chaps (and mostly young guys - or guys who were young when they did it) with poker knowledge and technical ability in spades but zero social intelligence. Braggy, short sighted and extremely foolish and as a result proffessional gambling is paying the price for this right now. Krantz+co on 2months2million, all the cardrunners lot, and everyone who's followed them since has contributed to this, so thanks for that guys.

Some of the practical aspects of pro gambling are not too pretty/appear a bit predatory, this must be true of every industry, but poker+ gambling is, as far as I know the only industry that has openly and freely published and bragged about them. I've never seen a car forum where a good car salesman has come on and started bragging about people who are easy to sell cars too? The older generation of pro gamblers, whereas there are, imo, some general traits from that segment of players (very non specific and general) that I think the younger generations have improved on for better, this one thing is something that previous generations kept hush on and was much much better.

The industry as it stands right now is paying for big mistakes in the pretty recent past - the majority of the major culprits have made there money and left but it's no more than we all deserve to be quite honest. All you can do at the moment as a proffessional gambler is play the game in the correct spirit, play hard but play fair, and try consider the bigger picture and not just where the next £1,000 or £5,000 is going to come from.

But most of all, and MOST CRUCIALLY of anything you MUST MUST MUST try and think a little more before you speak, and DEFO before you wirte.



Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: tikay on February 08, 2014, 01:38:57 PM
I agree with Tikay - the old young debate is just finger pointing and defensiveness "Old says young is boring, so young say old is rude" and so on.

The reason this debate has spiraled out is because far too much practical professional gambling strategy has been talked about and posted on forums and in public. People have written articles about game selecting and blogged about "fish" and so on, it's a clear example, as Tikay said of some bright chaps (and mostly young guys - or guys who were young when they did it) with poker knowledge and technical ability in spades but zero social intelligence. Braggy, short sighted and extremely foolish and as a result proffessional gambling is paying the price for this right now. Krantz+co on 2months2million, all the cardrunners lot, and everyone who's followed them since has contributed to this, so thanks for that guys.

Some of the practical aspects of pro gambling are not too pretty/appear a bit predatory, this must be true of every industry, but poker+ gambling is, as far as I know the only industry that has openly and freely published and bragged about them. I've never seen a car forum where a good car salesman has come on and started bragging about people who are easy to sell cars too? The older generation of pro gamblers, whereas there are, imo, some general traits from that segment of players (very non specific and general) that I think the younger generations have improved on for better, this one thing is something that previous generations kept hush on and was much much better.

The industry as it stands right now is paying for big mistakes in the pretty recent past - the majority of the major culprits have made there money and left but it's no more than we all deserve to be quite honest. All you can do at the moment as a proffessional gambler is play the game in the correct spirit, play hard but play fair, and try consider the bigger picture and not just where the next £1,000 or £5,000 is going to come from.

But most of all, and MOST CRUCIALLY of anything you MUST MUST MUST try and think a little more before you speak, and DEFO before you wirte.



Yes, just think first. In truth, the stuff is almost always Online, because they don't have to face the villain in the eye. In B & M poker, it is much, much, rarer. They would not dare.  

The more I think about this, even though rfgqqqhhjhff thinks the topic is incredibly boring, the more it fascinates me.

I'm more minded to think it is "pros v recreationals" than Young V Old.

I know this won't be well received, but I see it this way.

The poker economy is a perfect pyramid, with the big players at the top, & they get most attention, & respect, deservedly to a degree. It is often stated - wrongly - that they pay most rake, too. Also wrong.

Individually, yes, collectively, no way. The poker economy is built from the bottom, all the little guys, squillions of them. Without them, it's gg poker. It just is.

And yet, the guys that live off them - & I have no problem with them doing so, they deserve reward for their superior skills - routinely describe them as fish, morons, idiots, & the like. Don't believe me? Read some of the long-term staking threads, PHA's, or Blogs, where our hero describes the guys who beat them by playing hands badly as idiots, morons, fish, whatever.  

It's like you & me walking into Sainsburys, or Tesco, who depend upon us to earn a living, & the girl at the checkout routinely mocks us for buying the wrong stuff at the wrong price.

I know I'm ridiculously old-fashioned, & manners are out of fashion, but, imo, it is an attitude that makes no sense at all, & can only do harm.

Why would you ever be so rude to those who provide your income? Surely it'd be better to blow a little smoke up their arse, maybe even be respectful to the hand that feeds them?



Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: tikay on February 08, 2014, 02:05:38 PM

I must add one point, though.

When they say such things about those that provide their income, they are not being intentionally rude, or deliberately spitting in their eye.

It is more likely, as Mr N says, that they do not THINK when they write these things, it has not occurred to them of the irony of their words. 

I know tons of these guys, they are mostly OK chaps, & I get along with them fine, & I can't imagine for a moment they are aware of the effect their words have.

Just a little thought required, that's all.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: pleno1 on February 08, 2014, 02:12:24 PM
I know tons of these guys, they are mostly OK chaps, & I get along with them fine, & I can't imagine for a moment they are aware of the effect their words have.

if somebody in a staking thread says "aruhgőrubfgh just lost AA to a fish to called a 3bet off 25 bigs with j9o" or changed that word to idiot, retard, mug, whatever else it isnt going to have any effect though?

if he calls him out personally, uses his screen name etc etc etc then sure, I agree that is bad, but most of the time people dont.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: tikay on February 08, 2014, 02:30:55 PM
I know tons of these guys, they are mostly OK chaps, & I get along with them fine, & I can't imagine for a moment they are aware of the effect their words have.

if somebody in a staking thread says "aruhgőrubfgh just lost AA to a fish to called a 3bet off 25 bigs with j9o" or changed that word to idiot, retard, mug, whatever else it isnt going to have any effect though?

if he calls him out personally, uses his screen name etc etc etc then sure, I agree that is bad, but most of the time people dont.

Do you think it logical, or right, to even think that way?

When these lesser players donate, as they do most of the time, do we still want to mock them, the guys that pay the pro's wages? 8 times in 10 they lose the hand, that's fine, we say nothing, when the guy gets lucky, he is suddenly an idiot?

He is a customer. Think good things of him. He represents the pro's income. Look after him.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: SuuPRlim on February 08, 2014, 02:37:29 PM
sorry pads but you defo wrong on that one. IT DOES have a huge affect because of the overall image it portrays.

Whereas I think it;s incredibly disrespectful I don't think calling people fish on a forum has been a massive part of the problem, but the attitude that is behind it IS EXACTLY what the problem is and that's basically what JH is saying in this interview and I do agree completely.

I read an article 2 years ago by a very well respected UK guy (who i like) on Bumhunting HUNL online, i literally shrunk back into my chair with embarrassment at it, content like this has been published and talked about it public VERY openly and freely over the past 5 years, professional etiquette and basic common sense should make this stuff hugely taboo to talk about in public but for some reason it isn't.  People are extremely short-sighted and very small, relatively insignificant success has boosted far too many ego's into oblivion, imo.

The other sad part about this is that for every 20 people who behave properly, 1 person who doesn't can do far more damage than they can do good.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: roscopiko on February 08, 2014, 02:44:00 PM
How many of the people who post here/play regularly fell in love with poker despite consistently losing in their games regardless of how they were treated at the tables?  Going to be pretty low I'd guess.

The way I see it is as a cycle everyone who plays goes through:

1.You get introduced to poker through TV/friends/random event

2a. You win money/have a positive "experience" go to step 4

2b. You lose money/have a bad "experience" go to step 3

3. Stop playing

4. Keep playing, eat sleep dream poker.  Its fun, your amazing and going to win massive chunks of cash.

5. Read, discuss and learn that you aren't actually that good, study more, play a more "correct" probably less splashy fun style, experience variance etc and either continue to play and thrive or realise the game is actually a bit more boring than you thought and stop.

Online, all sites now have 1000s of regs across all of the "beginner" buy in levels hoovering up the new players money, timing down as they play 20 tables, not chatting or interacting at all with other players etc etc and basically creating a negative experience.

Local live games of all levels are now deepstacked to start putting new players at a bigger disadvantage and as numbers have reduced the regs/recs ratios again mean its harder still to fluke that early win.

So the biggest problem in the cycle now is that 2a is becoming so much rarer as the general standard at all levels is so much higher and keeps increasing.

How do you fix this?


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: titaniumbean on February 08, 2014, 02:51:23 PM
at least the poker sites are long term thinkers.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: pleno1 on February 08, 2014, 02:57:33 PM
Yeah it's pretty sick how poker players are the new who are getting all of the stick, repeatedly for the last 12 months.

What about the sites? They all do so much for personal greed rather than thinking about the LNG term and I Very rarely see anything wrote about them, pros speaking in interviews about them or threads on forums other than 2p2 bringing up serious issues.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 08, 2014, 03:09:07 PM
I know tons of these guys, they are mostly OK chaps, & I get along with them fine, & I can't imagine for a moment they are aware of the effect their words have.

if somebody in a staking thread says "aruhgőrubfgh just lost AA to a fish to called a 3bet off 25 bigs with j9o" or changed that word to idiot, retard, mug, whatever else it isnt going to have any effect though?

if he calls him out personally, uses his screen name etc etc etc then sure, I agree that is bad, but most of the time people dont.

On this point, the comment itself does not often have a direct effect, but a knock on one. If the top pros are seen to be using this sort of language in a public forum, those who are reading and who look up to them will start to copy them. It doesn't take long for these sorts of comments to leave internet forums and end up on social media sites. Then, someone like tony G or Phil helmuth is seen using this kind of language face to face, and again these new players copy their role models, and we end up in the situation that we're in today and discussing itt. Far from being an "incredibly dull topic", I think it's very important that people are aware of the power of words.

Basically, if the big boys make out that it's ok to call people names (regardless of their intent), this attitude will work it's way through the poker pyramid tikay is talking about.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: titaniumbean on February 08, 2014, 03:23:31 PM
I know tons of these guys, they are mostly OK chaps, & I get along with them fine, & I can't imagine for a moment they are aware of the effect their words have.

if somebody in a staking thread says "aruhgőrubfgh just lost AA to a fish to called a 3bet off 25 bigs with j9o" or changed that word to idiot, retard, mug, whatever else it isnt going to have any effect though?

if he calls him out personally, uses his screen name etc etc etc then sure, I agree that is bad, but most of the time people dont.

On this point, the comment itself does not often have a direct effect, but a knock on one. If the top pros are seen to be using this sort of language in a public forum, those who are reading and who look up to them will start to copy them. It doesn't take long for these sorts of comments to leave internet forums and end up on social media sites. Then, someone like tony G or Phil helmuth is seen using this kind of language face to face, and again these new players copy their role models, and we end up in the situation that we're in today and discussing itt. Far from being an "incredibly dull topic", I think it's very important that people are aware of the power of words.

Basically, if the big boys make out that it's ok to call people names (regardless of their intent), this attitude will work it's way through the poker pyramid tikay is talking about.


then why is everyone suddenly listening to this sage of wisdom whilst he and his brother are the kings of classless at the table?


he hardly leads by example.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Tal on February 08, 2014, 03:32:09 PM
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh49fHFMUTg

/thread


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 08, 2014, 03:41:19 PM
Tal, was that aimed at me or...? If it was me, then I'll say that I've been very vocal about my own temperament and my desire to sort it out. I will also point out that I have not berated someone at a table for a long time, and I have no intention if doing so again.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Tal on February 08, 2014, 03:45:28 PM
Tal, was that aimed at me or...? If it was me, then I'll say that I've been very vocal about my own temperament and my desire to sort it out. I will also point out that I have not berated someone at a table for a long time, and I have no intention if doing so again.

Eh?

No.

It was the most memorably ridiculous behaviour I've seen in a tournament. He has no awareness - nor care - of how everyone else at the table feels about his actions.

Never played with you, as far I'm aware. Rest assured, if I had, and you'd misbehaved, I would have let you know. I've only heard good things, though, as it happens, so don't really get your post.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: MANTIS01 on February 08, 2014, 04:25:13 PM
Whilst Tikay is obsessed with name-calling in reality it's only a very small factor and almost irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Back to my original point that poker was a game for artists and then fell into the hands of scientists. The basic problem is the overwhelming majority of players (customers) are recreational and thus poker needs to be mostly entertainment. When a guy finishes work there are infinite choices competing for his limited disposable income and limited time so the important question is...is poker going to be entertaining and fun?

The problem is this small % of bedroom-dwelling scientists have had far too much sway in the direction poker is going. All the quick-fire splashy re-buys were replaced by multi-day deep 'n' steep snooze-fests, personality & banter shrivelled up to be replaced by silent slow-motion robotics, poker became pure maths with tables and graphs, and socially inept kids just sat there for hours tapping at ipad screens. Is that entertainment and fun for the vast majority of customers? So goodness knows why operators have pandered to the scientists rather than the artists.

It's like the debate about Vicky Coren commentating. Sure she might not be able to pokerstove hands off the top of her head or be lol "long-term correct" with her analysis, but who gives a fck? She's got a kinda sexy voice and most of us like listening to it, end of.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Rexas on February 08, 2014, 04:32:54 PM
Tal, was that aimed at me or...? If it was me, then I'll say that I've been very vocal about my own temperament and my desire to sort it out. I will also point out that I have not berated someone at a table for a long time, and I have no intention if doing so again.

Eh?

No.

It was the most memorably ridiculous behaviour I've seen in a tournament. He has no awareness - nor care - of how everyone else at the table feels about his actions.

Never played with you, as far I'm aware. Rest assured, if I had, and you'd misbehaved, I would have let you know. I've only heard good things, though, as it happens, so don't really get your post.

I am extremely sorry, Tal. I'm gonna have to go with the age old "I was on my phone" excuse, I was meant to address that post at beany :p


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Tal on February 08, 2014, 04:44:13 PM
No problem. Glad to clear that up.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: titaniumbean on February 08, 2014, 05:02:54 PM
Tal, was that aimed at me or...? If it was me, then I'll say that I've been very vocal about my own temperament and my desire to sort it out. I will also point out that I have not berated someone at a table for a long time, and I have no intention if doing so again.

Eh?

No.

It was the most memorably ridiculous behaviour I've seen in a tournament. He has no awareness - nor care - of how everyone else at the table feels about his actions.

Never played with you, as far I'm aware. Rest assured, if I had, and you'd misbehaved, I would have let you know. I've only heard good things, though, as it happens, so don't really get your post.

this was at a time when poker was new and he was looking to try and get sponsored by stars, having seem him in stuff since that he is ridic quiet. Pretty sure he said in an interview afterwards he was just trying to bank on getting tv time in the hope that a deep run would get him sponsored.

obv it's ridic behaviour but w/e.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: pleno1 on February 08, 2014, 05:25:35 PM
Ironic thing is that hevad khan actually brought alot of people into poker, I know my friends would always go bulllllldoooozerrrrr when we started playing cash games together.

He had a lot of people always searching him on stars too.

Obviously the way he was to his opponents was out of order, but there's even a "hevad khan" rule now if I'm not mistaken.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: titaniumbean on February 08, 2014, 05:28:53 PM
tbf think it's about right to wait for at least 10 seconds before calling the nuts.....


http://youtu.be/r2nzLDZm3wA?t=1m32s


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: titaniumbean on February 08, 2014, 05:33:10 PM
"that's poker"


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: david3103 on February 08, 2014, 05:59:33 PM
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh49fHFMUTg

/thread

Any worse than Rastafish?


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Tal on February 08, 2014, 06:06:56 PM
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh49fHFMUTg

/thread

Any worse than Rastafish?

I didn't say worst behaviour. Just most memorably ridiculous.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: TightEnd on February 08, 2014, 06:13:03 PM
Rastafish can be wonderful with recreational players

Seen him go OTT a few times, but generally "makes" a table for the casual player


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: david3103 on February 08, 2014, 06:20:14 PM
Rastafish can be wonderful with recreational players

Seen him go OTT a few times, but generally "makes" a table for the casual player

Guess it depends on context.

For the record, I have shared a table with Rastafish on a few occasions, and have been eliminated by him as he called in the overcard with AK v my JJ. He's a lovely bloke, and takes it well when the card doesn't arrive I'm sure (if indeed that has ever happened).


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Junior Senior on February 08, 2014, 06:52:42 PM
Rasta is great to share a table with as long as you take his banter with the spirit it is intended and give him some back.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: pleno1 on February 08, 2014, 07:54:20 PM
ive actually shared a table with hevad khan and he was very polite. ive seen rastafish been very polite and very loud and unwelcoming for new players.

every poker player who has ever called somebody an idiot or a fish has been nice at one point in their careers.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: pleno1 on February 08, 2014, 07:54:56 PM
Rasta is great to share a table with as long as you take his banter with the spirit it is intended and give him some back.

some of the guys with hevad were loving his antics too, like you say it just all depends on how people take it.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Woodsey on February 08, 2014, 08:00:54 PM
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh49fHFMUTg

/thread

I would honestly tell him to stfu and stop behaving like a cock, I don't think I could help myself  ;grr;


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: The Camel on February 08, 2014, 08:14:08 PM
Simon Nowab was great company at the table.

Anyone know what he's up to now?


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Domaison on February 08, 2014, 08:47:52 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hachem

Interesting read.
Average Joe, boy done good. 
11.7 million life winnings. mbn

People forget that whilst hachem is classed as a Pro, he wasn't when he won
& is really semi Pro now.

Decent guy that's represented your average poker player pretty well & someone who
who's words of advice on poker won't be the worst we could take on board imo.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Marky147 on February 08, 2014, 09:38:44 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hachem

Interesting read.
Average Joe, boy done good. 
11.7 million life winnings. mbn

People forget that whilst hachem is classed as a Pro, he wasn't when he won
& is really semi Pro now.

Decent guy that's represented your average poker player pretty well & someone who
who's words of advice on poker won't be the worst we could take on board imo.

He was a reg at mid/high stakes cash before the 2005 main event, so not quite your average poker player.

A lot of what Hachem says makes sense, but it's a shame he can't practice what he preaches, and is well known for behaving like a spoilt child at the tables.

Think that he could do a lot worse than take a few pointers on how to behave from the guy he beat HU!



Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: titaniumbean on February 08, 2014, 09:40:01 PM
everyone should just be like danneman then poker would be fun!

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxiUzbS7sAY


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: DMorgan on February 09, 2014, 08:42:54 PM
I'd like to know how he comes to the conclusion that 'poker is dying'? Yeah numbers might be down in the 10k+ events but they were artificially inflated anyway by FTP and Stars splashing out on sponsorship. You just can't use attendances at huge buyin tournaments as a good indicator for the overall health of the game when these tournaments account for a minuscule amount of poker going on all over the world.

Small and mid stakes live tournaments are doing great and a quick look at pokerscout shows that 18 of the top 20 poker networks showed growth in players numbers in the past 6 months. iPoker was stagnant and FTP recorded a tiny decline.

I just don't really get why everyone on blonde seems to think that they sky is falling just because there isn't enough liquidity in Nottingham to withstand a whole bunch of good regs and hefty rake compared to the same size online games.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: GreekStein on February 09, 2014, 09:01:06 PM
I'd like to know how he comes to the conclusion that 'poker is dying'? Yeah numbers might be down in the 10k+ events but they were artificially inflated anyway by FTP and Stars splashing out on sponsorship. You just can't use attendances at huge buyin tournaments as a good indicator for the overall health of the game when these tournaments account for a minuscule amount of poker going on all over the world.

Small and mid stakes live tournaments are doing great and a quick look at pokerscout shows that 18 of the top 20 poker networks showed growth in players numbers in the past 6 months. iPoker was stagnant and FTP recorded a tiny decline.

I just don't really get why everyone on blonde seems to think that they sky is falling just because there isn't enough liquidity in Nottingham to withstand a whole bunch of good regs and hefty rake compared to the same size online games.

excellent post.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: AndrewT on February 09, 2014, 09:51:53 PM
Small and mid stakes live tournaments are doing great and a quick look at pokerscout shows that 18 of the top 20 poker networks showed growth in players numbers in the past 6 months. iPoker was stagnant and FTP recorded a tiny decline.

All online poker sites are going to be busier in Jan/Feb than in Jul/Aug.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: kano on February 10, 2014, 12:42:23 AM
I'd like to know how he comes to the conclusion that 'poker is dying'? Yeah numbers might be down in the 10k+ events but they were artificially inflated anyway by FTP and Stars splashing out on sponsorship. You just can't use attendances at huge buyin tournaments as a good indicator for the overall health of the game when these tournaments account for a minuscule amount of poker going on all over the world.

Small and mid stakes live tournaments are doing great and a quick look at pokerscout shows that 18 of the top 20 poker networks showed growth in players numbers in the past 6 months. iPoker was stagnant and FTP recorded a tiny decline.

I just don't really get why everyone on blonde seems to think that they sky is falling just because there isn't enough liquidity in Nottingham to withstand a whole bunch of good regs and hefty rake compared to the same size online games.

excellent post.

+1


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: tikay on February 10, 2014, 07:47:12 AM
I'd like to know how he comes to the conclusion that 'poker is dying'? Yeah numbers might be down in the 10k+ events but they were artificially inflated anyway by FTP and Stars splashing out on sponsorship. You just can't use attendances at huge buyin tournaments as a good indicator for the overall health of the game when these tournaments account for a minuscule amount of poker going on all over the world.

Small and mid stakes live tournaments are doing great and a quick look at pokerscout shows that 18 of the top 20 poker networks showed growth in players numbers in the past 6 months. iPoker was stagnant and FTP recorded a tiny decline.

I just don't really get why everyone on blonde seems to think that they sky is falling just because there isn't enough liquidity in Nottingham to withstand a whole bunch of good regs and hefty rake compared to the same size online games.

Hi Dan,

We must differentiate between Live & Online. The Online market is much much bigger, by a huge multiple, than B & M poker.

There is no real way of measuring B & M poker traffic, but I suspect it might be in the ascendancy. Great news, imo. But if it only reps, say, 5% of the total market, it needs to be seen in that context. 

Online Poker traffic has declined for the last few years. This is a fact, not an opinion.

You have to compare year on year, not 6 month periods, online Poker is extremely seasonal, as Andrew T alluded to.

From December to March every year, in this part of the world, it is at its very peak. In July/August, it is at its very lowest.

If iPoker & FTP showed a decline, or were stagnant, in January compared to July, then they have a very serious problem indeed. All sites (generally) have MUCH higher traffic in January compared to July.

My comments only apply to Online poker, really, as I don't know how good or bad B & M traffic is, or even how it can be measured. In the greater scheme of things, it is far less relevant than Online though.

Everyone seems to be in denial. I'm as keen as the next man to see poker thrive, more so than most, perhaps, I'm passionate about it, & I work in the Industry. Whether people like it or not, Online poker is not growing, & is seeing a global decline. I think it's important that we all recognize this.

If we pull together, I think we can turn it round though, & I hope we can.       

Debating whether or not Hachem is an oaf, or a jolly good chap, won't help us solve the problem though, we need to get constructive. 


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: AlunB on February 13, 2014, 11:38:58 AM
I'd like to know how he comes to the conclusion that 'poker is dying'? Yeah numbers might be down in the 10k+ events but they were artificially inflated anyway by FTP and Stars splashing out on sponsorship. You just can't use attendances at huge buyin tournaments as a good indicator for the overall health of the game when these tournaments account for a minuscule amount of poker going on all over the world.

Small and mid stakes live tournaments are doing great and a quick look at pokerscout shows that 18 of the top 20 poker networks showed growth in players numbers in the past 6 months. iPoker was stagnant and FTP recorded a tiny decline.

I just don't really get why everyone on blonde seems to think that they sky is falling just because there isn't enough liquidity in Nottingham to withstand a whole bunch of good regs and hefty rake compared to the same size online games.

That's because 6 months ago it was summer.

edit: sorry didn't notice a couple of wiser heads had made this point already


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: AlunB on February 13, 2014, 11:40:20 AM
I'd like to know how he comes to the conclusion that 'poker is dying'? Yeah numbers might be down in the 10k+ events but they were artificially inflated anyway by FTP and Stars splashing out on sponsorship. You just can't use attendances at huge buyin tournaments as a good indicator for the overall health of the game when these tournaments account for a minuscule amount of poker going on all over the world.

Small and mid stakes live tournaments are doing great and a quick look at pokerscout shows that 18 of the top 20 poker networks showed growth in players numbers in the past 6 months. iPoker was stagnant and FTP recorded a tiny decline.

I just don't really get why everyone on blonde seems to think that they sky is falling just because there isn't enough liquidity in Nottingham to withstand a whole bunch of good regs and hefty rake compared to the same size online games.

That's because 6 months ago it was summer.

Overall, the worldwide market is down 13% from this time last year as the peak season is failing to keep pace with last winter.

http://www.pokerscout.com/news/weekly-traffic-update.aspx?year=2014&week=7

Online poker is not in great shape. It's running to a standstill in a lot of cases.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: SuuPRlim on February 14, 2014, 02:14:12 AM
from my perspective 2 years I was a significantly worse playing making significantly more money online, the kind of winrate 2012 lildave thought was achievable 2014 lildave can only dream of. Reasons are i) players are better, ii) traffic is worse so more players play on more sites so the increased number of good players are in more places and ofc stnd iii) there is less loose money online for several reasons.

in terms of live poker I have played once in 3 months, where I used to play 3 times a week, reasons being there isn't a suitable game within a 1hr drive and the games that are 60-90mins away are limited seats/times, so if I want to walk into a live game I go to Europe, Vegas/L.A or London.

I agree poker isn't and certainly will never die but it's struggling right now and I don't think anyone can disagree with that.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: tikay on February 14, 2014, 07:00:23 AM
I'd like to know how he comes to the conclusion that 'poker is dying'? Yeah numbers might be down in the 10k+ events but they were artificially inflated anyway by FTP and Stars splashing out on sponsorship. You just can't use attendances at huge buyin tournaments as a good indicator for the overall health of the game when these tournaments account for a minuscule amount of poker going on all over the world.

Small and mid stakes live tournaments are doing great and a quick look at pokerscout shows that 18 of the top 20 poker networks showed growth in players numbers in the past 6 months. iPoker was stagnant and FTP recorded a tiny decline.

I just don't really get why everyone on blonde seems to think that they sky is falling just because there isn't enough liquidity in Nottingham to withstand a whole bunch of good regs and hefty rake compared to the same size online games.

That's because 6 months ago it was summer.

Overall, the worldwide market is down 13% from this time last year as the peak season is failing to keep pace with last winter.

http://www.pokerscout.com/news/weekly-traffic-update.aspx?year=2014&week=7

Online poker is not in great shape. It's running to a standstill in a lot of cases.

The point I've been trying, repeatedly, to make, whilst all the finger-pointing continued.

It declined the previous year, too, though the decline accelerated last year. In y-o-y terms, 13% is an absolutely massive number.

That rate of decline, if sustained, would soon mean the market as a whole would undergo huge changes, & Online Poker as we know it will change forever.


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: leethefish on February 14, 2014, 07:37:16 AM
Why ?



Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Jamier-Host on February 24, 2014, 02:21:45 PM
I'd class myself as a recreational player, and probably someone pros would want to play with.  I used to play cash games around England but found after a few years of great fun, that the new players I would be sitting with just became incredibly dull.  I'm sure they are nice people but it wasn't what I wanted from a night out.  People rarely drank anything and 90% of the table talk was hand analysis and talk of value ranges and online tournament schedules.  This isn't necessarily a dig at younger players as even older players are at it as well I've noticed.  I'm in my mid 30s for a sense of perspective.

Consequently I just stopped playing in the UK unless it is a private game where I know who is playing.  I'll still play in Vegas or Ireland and make annual trips specifically for that purpose where I find the game far more fun and people take it less seriously.

The question is how many people like me think this way?  If it's just me then obviously it's not an issue.

Yep same boat for me - pretty rare I play live now.  Partly because of increased family commitments, but partly because it just isn't much fun any more. Sure, the fact the games are harder doesn't help - but it wouldn't be so bad if when you lost you had some fun in the process!  The only times I do play live now really is when I'm going with a mate so at least we can chat even if no one else is keen (and we don't talk poker hands...) Or to go along to a PKR Live event or Sky Poker Tour where people genuinely go to enjoy themselves regardless of the result.

I wonder if the stake levels in cash games plays a part also.  Pretty tough to find a live game lower than £1/£1 which is fairly chunky for a novice, especially if they've experienced quite how little action they get for the "minimum" buy-in they always get told about to entice them in.

Every month or two I now have a home game but find that even at the 25p/25p level we play some friends/family find it a bit steep once the action heats up a bit later on.  Maybe the casinos could do with experimenting with some low stakes tables almost as loss leaders to encourage new players into the game. Not sure how you'd manage who was allowed to play in the games though - newbies given a pass for 10 sessions or something?


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: mulhuzz on February 25, 2014, 01:44:58 AM
Haseeb Quareshi called it a Tragedy of the Commons, and I think he's right:

http://haseebq.com/pokers-tragedy-of-the-commons/


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: MC on April 03, 2014, 09:43:47 AM
(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10154487_10152304245346343_339061922_n.jpg)


Title: Re: Hachem has it right, doesn't he?
Post by: Woodsey on April 03, 2014, 09:45:30 AM
lol