blonde poker forum

All I am seeing these days is people selling action on poker forums & Facebook, some of the "mark-ups" are absolutely absurd

I'm not going to name names, but I've just seen one on Facebook for a player who has no huge online cashes but selling at 1.3, someone else did one on another forum for 1.2 with no huge cashes (he decided to lower this is the end). I could go on and on about people and these silly mark ups.

I would also say are people round up these numbers? Why not sell at a rate you think is fair, rather than trying to round it upto the nearest hundred?

Can people genuinely sell at 1.3 for Stars? 1.2 for UKIPT?

Not ot mention there are a handful of people who are trying to 'mask' the numbers, because they know some people are too stupid to realise.

I think players can ask whatever they want, some of them are value, but the buyer can decide, surely? Nobody is forced to buy.

Market forces & all that.

I think discussion and threads over the past 12-18 months have helped lower mark-ups considerably.

Your post won't fall on deaf ears Aaron, but there isn't all that much to discuss any more.

Some people still buy at atrocious rates, but I just think that's up to them.

Imo people should be allowed to ask for what they want and other people should be allowed to say 'you aren't worth any markup at all let alone the absurd amount you're charging'

Discussion was had not long ago.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=61373.0

Agree the discussion has helped educate; been worthwhile.

But doesn't need rinse repeated every 6-9 months.

Someone asked me if they could buy me into a three figure buy in event 2 years ago in a casino the night before the event whilst i was sat playing cash with them.  I knew him only from playing cash infrequently with him at that casino.  They had won a reasonable amount of cash that night playing cash and on blackjack and were clearly in the mood to gamble.  His exact words were without any prompting from me at the cash table 'Can i buy you in for the event tomorrow and we split any cashes 50/50?'  I was planning on playing the event anyway but obviously accepted the guy's generous offer which he was 100% happy offering without me saying a word.  Did he notice he was selling at 2.0?  I doubt it.  Did he care? I doubt it.

Were the buyer and seller both happy with the deal?  Yes.  Hence business was struck.

its good for buyers on here. sophisticated buying audience, much lower incidence of the kind of mark ups that were referred to in OP

on facebook/social media in some cases the audience is a lot less clued up, probably behind the evolution of some staking boards..funnily enough you see bigger facebook staking volume now compared to 9 months ago, less on here

but market forces, things take their own course as we saw on here.

We knew David Moyes was doing a bad job at Man Utd, but every media outlet still repeated themselves! ;)

What are people's morals like these days though? Like I mentioned in the OP, there are people that are trying to mask the numbers because they know they can do it. The people who will try and take as much of returns as possible because of 'costs'.

I know this thread is repeating another thread and the previous one had a high amount of pages, but repeating the topic is there just so people know that others are taking notice.

It does genuinely frustrate me to see people trying to rip others off, through different avenues.

We don't know that - like the "Mark-Up" debate, it's entirely subjective.

I think markup is fine as long as people promise to hang around and post on the forum for a few months afterwards

If Tikay can sell his WSOP schedule at 1.0 then good luck to him - it's not for us to judge.

FML.

I'll have you know that Channing regularly offers to buy my action @ 0.4.

Prepared to gazump Mr Channing

I just finished reading the 1.3-gate saga.  This is a subject that seems to reoccur and I think people's displeasure at these types of mark ups come down to the following:

My main issue with facebook staking is the fact that it's that is pitched to a wider audience who don't really understand what they're buying.  It's seems like there is a lot of deception (vague or none existent posting of mark ups, no results posted, filtered results posted or little or no sample sizes).  These people should absolutely be allowed to sell but in a market that isn't regulated at all it has to be someone's responsibility to make sure that innocent people are not been taken advantage of.

Some people believe they are making a profitable financial investment because of misleading posts and claims from certain people.  It has to be the responsibility of someone to speak up when  they feel this happens.  Claims of 'it's a deal between whoever is selling and buying and no one else needs to get involved' are complete bollocks.  Some people don't realise / understand what they're buying.

On the other hand, if people are selling at no MU (or 0.4 in tikays case) and saying they need to sell because they cannot afford it and does anyone want a spin then GL to them and the people who buy, I've even bought these packages myself in the past and had some fun sweats from them.  As soon as you start to charge MU though I think the proposition changes and people should be allowed to challenge and ask questions, at the end of the day you're selling an investment to uniformed people who may believe they are buying something they're not.

I think it's right that people are allowed to challenge MUs and these threads and debates can only help the market overall.

Nice post Tom, you've worded it better than me

But where do you go in a situation like this which I saw last year:


John makes the ISPT at Wembley by satting in, but only makes a stack which is less than starting stack, 32,000 when average stack is going to be 50,000.

John is an OK player, only a local player in Sheffield.

He's got a 32,000 stack which will be a short stack & is hardly one of the best players in the tournament.

He posts that he is x amount of BB's, but doesn't let people know it's a short stack.

He sells at 1.15.

He gets plenty of action.

The main reason for this thread was to get pleno in the rail.

I have won!

If I challenged peoples posts on FB charging mark-up I'd probably lose a few friends. I have some friends who are pretty bad at poker on FB but are playing things like online 1ks+ and selling at 1.2. Annoys me a bit but I just try to ignore it.

Personally don't think mark-ups are an issue at all. Provided that all the evidence is provided to show why they feel they can charge a mark-up and the sellers don't try to hide facts or figures from the potential buyers. I'm sure we've all looked at some packages with mark-up on and thought 'wow that seems high', but obviously you just wouldn't buy a piece, however, others might do. Provided both parties are happy and fully informed, it's fine.

Also I think the buyers have a decent amount of responsibility about what they are buying. If someone buys a piece in someone at X mark-up without really knowing what it means, they should probably do a bit of research. If I went out and bought a fancy electronic gadget, I might not know how its features work, but i'd look it up before shelling out $$ on it.

This is sort of the problem.  It's really hard to comment on certain situations, I think it's hard to comment on individual situations and I think some people are completely oblivious to the fact they're doing it through lack of understanding themselves.  If people haven't been told what they're doing is wrong, either privately or publicly, then they probably don't realise that they are gambling away other peoples hard earned cash and charging them for the privilege of doing so.

At the end of the day selling pieces of yourself is business.  People are not buying at a premium to give their mates a spin and if they are, should be made aware of that fact.  Some of them are buying because they believe they will make a return on their investment in the long run.  There are also further issues related to this where people genuinely believe that they have an edge vs certain fields when they do not.  At end of they day it is it up to the buyer whether or not they wish to invest and if they believe it is a reasonable proposition or not.

However, if you sell at a MU you should provide ALL the details of the proposition clearly, with the amount of MU, provide references and results where necessary and respond to any questions or queries openly.

What annoyed me most about the most recent thread was the 'your not buying so it has nothing to do with you' attitude.  We have seen one incident on Blonde fairly recently of people turning a blind eye to unusual staking behavior and an innocent person was left with a debt of £1000 to collect.  I know this is an extreme example and there were certain other factors that led to this happening, but it definitely has to be the responsibility of the community to police these threads and if you feel that something isn't right you have a right to speak up.

Also think Dan is OOL here calling MC out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor

if you sell 70/30 what mu is that?

1.4ish

(http://imageshack.com/a/img836/6114/4xk5.jpg)

I think Mark-Ups were out of hand, but currently aren't that out of hand, not on blonde anyways

I don't like the trend in mid-high stakes mtters selling their action on social media without writing the markup down. They just say the tournament and how much 10% costs. So the seller has to work out the markup themselves.

I was almost duped into buying ept action ( usually €5300 buyin) where 1% I was told cost €55 or something. Then I found out that this ept was €4900 so the markup was actually a lot higher.

Markup should always be posted in the OP imo.

lol

I sold once the other day Patrick at 30/70 after the stake back. I clearly wrote that I was looking to sell 100% and that I would take 30% after the stake back had been returned, I also don't ever have any of my 'friends' buy pieces, only people that know what they are doing, not that that makes a difference.

When I sell just a % I never put mark up on any online tournaments, I feel this is my way of balancing it out a bit, I sold a mark up in WCOOP 2010 as a package, and that was 1.15, other than that never.

If you think any of my threads either on here or on Facebook have been mis leading in any way then you are not the person I thought you were.

Please ask Sam Razavi if he thinks my post was mis leading in any way. Please then ask Nick Hicks if he thought it was mis leading when he backed me for a selection of comps a few weeks back, and then when you have done that, please ask Ludovic Jonson if he thinks I was being mis leading in any way when he done the same thing last night for me.

Just to keep the TRANSPARENCY.

I thought I made some really good points, I agreed with Greekstein that the comment about the mark up was OOL, other than that I think I was fair in what I wrote and don't see how people who are meant to be regs in poker can get away with putting up such a poor staking proposal, when in reality it is always going to be bought by people that don't have a clue, so therefore it is misguided information.

Not sure why you felt the need to call me out, other than you clearly think I am pretty shit at poker, would never buy a piece in any of my staking threads, and thought this a perfect opportunity to have another dig.

So many people in that thread have took what I have said the wrong way, they are being very ignorant to what I am trying to say, I think Matt Davenport summed it up perfectly, 'Misunderstood'. If there was ever a word that suited me better it is that one.

No one has called you out on here dreenie?  Or am I missing something?

I don't think anyone should sell over 30% of themselves at face value, they may as well play a smaller buy in at a higher ROI

Why do people get so hung up on mark up's being offered?  If i am selling my car 2nd hand on auto trader i will put a price up roughly what i think it is worth plus £500.  If someone comes on and likes the car and offers me the full asking price i would be really annoyed if someone who had no business getting involved in the transaction from either side got involved and told the buyer i was over charging by £500 and potentially stopped the sale.

Sorry should have stated, Patrick did on FB. Just thought I would post here as he was asking how much the mark up was on 30/70 so clearly was thinking of me when he put that.

I cba to comment on that fb anymore it's ridiculous, so thought I would just post here to him.

If you were selling a motor, I'd offer at least a bag under the asking price ;)

I def agree with this although if they choose to it's fine it just doesn't make any sense at all from a financial angle other than just to be seen playing the event (there is nothing wrong with this if that's their reason).   I always find it amazing when people want to sell 50/60/70% of themselves in a high buy in comp at face.  So effectively in a £1k event you are personally playing a £300 event but have to face all the pros you wouldn't have to face in a £300 plus usually have to spend more hours playing the event as it's a deeper structure.

An rare exception could be made for a huge £1k comp like the last one at dtd where there are hundreds of online qual's etc but in general it doesnt make sense to me.

You and me probably would but not everyone cares about the price they pay for goods and services they purchase.

What happens if you sat in?  What happens if there are really only 2 big plo8 comps all year worldwide?  I can see a lot more justification for selling at 1, than just charging mark ups because it is the usual thing. 

I was seriously thinking of playing the $2k plo8, but am not really rolled for it.  Next step down is 200. It would be a bit silly to charge 1.1/1.15 when 2k is very much above my average buy in.   Having said that at least I am familiar with the game, which I am not convinced everyone who charges a mark up for omaha is.  Similar to Tikay, he has played a lot of hands but isn't entirely happy with the 3k cost.  These things balance though and he us happy charging 1, we are happy paying 1. 

Dreenie do you think being a girl helps when selling packages? Think people more likely to take a chance etc?

Point being there's pub near me that has poker after hours, occasionally pop in on way home when drunk and donate- a youngish girl was in game, she had spun £40 case money into £250 and I obv stacked her. She was devastated and nearly in tears, she got young kid etc. So I gave her the money back. Now of that was a bloke id probably be more along the lines "shouldn't be playing with last money etc"

Being popular obviously helps when charging markup and selling , just wondering whether being female helps as well

Not a dig at you at all btw, just curious how people think

Are you looking for an argument?

The point is about mark ups being too high, not mark ups in general.

Would you may pay £10 for a pint?

Would you pay 1.3 for a average player in x tournament?

It really is the same point in paying over the odds for something.

you just love it dont you Aaron :)

No idea if it helps sell, I would probably say it is worse, like if a guy get's a few scores he is seen as a 'sicko', yet if a girl does it it's usually seen as just being lucky one hit wonder type thing, cue Vicky Coren that the crap she got after winning a 2nd EPT.

Obviously it helps being popular, IMO people have to like something about you to want to invest, specially in the worse off stakes i.e 30/70 after stake back. I think it's very very hard to become a successful woman poker player and be recognized in such a way as the men do, and if I'm honest and I had my time again, I would never have gotten into as I find it a very manipulative, destructive environment.

If I was to put a staking package up every week and it never sold, I would not get bitter towards people, everyone has a right to buy or not to buy. The only thing it could possibly do would be to make sure I'm not an idiot with money when I got my chance again.  

Do people think there's a difference between selling on a forum, in a section dedicated to selling action, and selling on Facebook?

Could be mistaken about the etiquette of each, but i tend to feel that on a forum you open yourself up to scrutiny from entire marketplace. Buyers and sellers have a right (an obligation?) to address offers with an unjustified mark up.

If your selling on Facebook youre supposedly selling to friends. Now friends might by your action at inflated MU for any number of reasons. Being subjected to interrogation by a lot of pros who have an understanding of true ROI's might be unreasonable.

Don't know what people think. But i defo don't post negative comments on peoples Facebook walls when they sell. I might do on the forum.

Poker is just a satellite to something better in life anyway, it just provides a quicker timeframe to get to the end goal as opposed to a conventional job. People that get too hung up about it end up being in it for longer than they need to be

It actually all started off because I couldn't make head nor tail of the proposal so was trying to find out more info, which in itself shows how poor the quality of the post was if even I couldn't understand it. I said a couple of ool comments on there like questioning mark up which I snap apologized for when greekstein pulled me up on it. But I don't see how me questioning why this guy has not put all the info clearly so everyone knows what they are buying into is unreasonable.

If anything, I feel I was the one that got attacked and some of the language on that thread and the tone of people's post go hand in hand in my earlier post to Dubai, as to why if I had my chance again, I would never want to play full time or be involved in the poker community.

100% agree, very guilty of this.

WINNER

If you're offering a service anywhere people have the right to question the price and know what it is that they are buying regardless of where it happens.

one thing that tilts me, and it really shouldnt because its worth like a few cents

is when people charge mark up and then they round it up to a round figure "because it makes it easier".

so they spend all this time working out exactly what they should be charging, then they just add a few quid on to make it an even number for the crack.

Ive even done this myself, and makes no difference whatsoever.

i'm not buying that you've sat down and worked out what you're worth mind ;)

This post makes a lot of sense.

But, with well known players like the parties involved here, a lot of people are friends with each other on Facebook. Some of them could be just trying to look out for their mutual friends if they believe this is a bad deal. They would speak up on the forum, and feel they need to speak up on FB.

In this particular case, even after skim reading 300+ comments, reading the OP, working out the "bonus" tournaments and the cost of the original comps, I still couldn't be sure what the total markup is, and I assume that is what is setting the alarm bells ringing.

Course if both sides are happy that's cool.  Your example is different because of the sheer lack of events like that.  I was talking about selling 60/70% at face in a monthly dtd 500 deepstack.  Keeping £150 or £200 for urself.  Just play the next £150 for 100% of yourself and play against a lower standard field and your roi increases.

about £8.59 if i look at my bank statement

I would sell 50% of myself so that I can play a £500 structure for £250.

I don't see the problem.

Play the bigger buy in cos they respect your raises there...

Good one

Not all decisions are made on a financial angle though as this proves.  Which is why people should be allowed to buy and sell at whatever rate they choose and let the market decide.

This debate again?!
Been talked to death before.
Dont like the mark up, dont buy the package. Simple.

Is it unethical to knowingly sell at a higher markup than ones ROI? I don't think I've ever done it but occasionally see threads here (and very often see threads on 2+2) where people are either deluding themselves or taking advantage of the fact that they're popular. I'm all for market decides price and all that but not sure that entirely sits well with me.

Just @bankoftimex it if you're unsure ;)

People play roulette. The odds are poor. They know that. They don't care.

You've obviously never met Tonytats, Tom ;D

A new version of Godwins law

Anyone who has to get other people to (part) fund their poker buy ins is no altruist. They are people who know they will probably lose and so want to share their losses - how kind

I believe that there are some people who might sell shares in their tournament(s) in order to provide some vicarious pleasure for stakers who would never get to play those events themselves. That seems pretty altruistic to me. :)

Did you give her the £40? or the £250?

i have been staked at a ridiculous mark up for a once in a life time (probably) comp it started at a joke and i didnt expect it to happen

i dont think i would sell part of me in a normal comp i would just play lower comps are around

instead of playing a £300 comp at DtD and selling 50% of myself at 1.2 i would rather buy myself in a £100 comp so i keep all the money
basically all you are doing by selling yourself is reducing the buy in and the amount you can win

being on a long term stake is obviously different as is one time comps or yearly comps like UKIPT but i wouldnt do it for a monthly deepstack
or even for every major comp at my casino or poker club

You're missing a couple of key points here. Firstly, expected ROI is going to be higher in a SCOOP than in a normal event. Secondly, this is even more the case in a non-holdem game such as PLO8. Do I think this justifies the player in question charging a 1.3 mark-up? IMO it's questionable, but that's between the player and his backers. Do I think it's possible that a player can charge more than his long-term ROI for a one-off event such as a SCOOP in theory - absolutely.

I wasn't referring to any particular case.

I don't think it's fair to say ROIs are arbitrarily higher for all winning players because it's SCOOP. In the 2ks I'd say the breakeven regs become losing regs, the small winners become breakeven, and the big winners probably win bigger.

Also I don't think it's limited to big events. I think there's threads literally every week from some local live tournies to EPT mains where people are very likely charging more markup than their ROI (again, not referring to any thread in particular and don't have any examples to hand but could easily find some).

I'm more interested if people think it's scummy or if it's just being smart.

Delusion is the reason, rather than people being scummy. It's also the reason why the games are still good and tournys get so many runners.

90%+ of people in any given tournament would declare themselves above average for the field id guess. Maybe 95%+.

Luckily 99% of that 95% are simply deluded.

Without being super smart and analytical it's hard for people to understand how they can go deep in x tournament or win y tournament, and not be able to repeat.

I refer to it as "Chasing the dragon"- seeking the same high you once had that probably you won't reach again. Poker is littered with people that ruined their careers chasing the dragon

Dubai wins yet another thread.

I agree regarding delusion. I was there a few years ago. I think all staking threads should include a sharkscope graph, from there you can explain what certain markup is justified.

For example last 12 months my ABI is $30 with an ABI of 35% and I sold a SCOOP package at around 1.15 (These are estimates, I'm on my phone).  I'm offering investors a chance to make money as well as charging a bit of mark-up.

Generally people don't post up sharkscope graphs because they believe that they have miraculously improved in a short time or have just been unlucky thus far. Some dont need to post graphs because they are just very good at poker and everyone knows it.

I think there are two different things happening here. One is a debate about mark up. Clearly stated mark up. The other is selling shares in yourself, without stating the mark up, which is what I believe the person on fb did. And as far as I'm aware, it's not the first time he's used this method of promoting his shares.

I think it's fine that people question the second way, as dreenie did. Selling with the line of '£40 for a chance to win £2k' is ok, but what the average punter won't get, or realise, is that that shares true value may be only £25, therefore they are getting their leg lifted. I'm not saying that this is the case here, but not everyone is as savvy as they should be on the internet.

I don't think it's good form to ever not state markup and I don't think you can really argue against that, facebook or not

Agreed. Seemed to be plenty in fb, that thought it was fine argue against though.

think people should be able to put up whatever they want tbh

Is the title of this thread not tilting everyone else?

Didn't even notice, had to read it 3 or 4 times before I realised what you were talking about.  Should obviously have been "Mark-up's getting out of hand".

You think the idiots should pay idiot tax?

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md7a5eJgkV1qipzb8o1_500.gif)

Saying instead of playing a 500 comp with 50% of yourself play a 250 comp with 100% is only applicable if there is a 250 comp with the same structure and # of runners available. When DTD deep stacks used to be £300 2day main and £150 1day side comparing the £150 event to exactly half of the £300 is miles wrong, prize money/structure completely different and even if the £150 has (pulling numbers out of thin air here) 20% softer field it's still gonna be more profitable to play the £300.

If the WSOP had an 8 day $5k event with 6500 runners and a gtd top prize of $5m I'd prolly play that over the main event.

Oh my, just opened Facebook. 

Many of us (certainly me) don't have Facebook, so the repeated references to Facebook thread or threads in here don't mean too much.

Am certainly not saying the FB convos need repeating here, I'd rather they were not, in truth, just that much of the debate is meaningless to those of us not on FB.

Basically tikay a well known player offered a package and made no mention of the fact that it was marked up at 1.3 (and he was selling 70%).  He also made some odd reference to investors potentially getting a free % in bonus tournaments (which he may or may not play) and there was a budget for some unspecified satellites.

At this point a 400 post inquiry started.

Wow, explosive stuff.

Dunno why we can't say it's Pete Wigglesworth. Not like it's a small thread hidden away somewhere!

Who is it?

Don't tell him. He's been promising to get fb for over a year now.

I think the main point of this thread has been about that particular post rather than mark ups in general.  Completely agree that you can sell for what you want but buyers also have the right to ask you to justify your asking price.

In this case though no justification was provided, the mark up was just added to the selling price and there was no mention of any mark up in the OP.  On top of this not all the tournaments were listed (just a budget for unspecified satellites) and there were some mystery bonus tournaments mentioned (which may or may not be played).  It just seems like really bad tekkers in general.  Members of the poker community made some good points about why this shouldn't be done, which were ignored.

Some members of the non poker community decided to use the 'c' word a lot.

damm why did i delete him
he seems so good a pokerz too

Ive punted my money into worst staking packages.

See here.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=62944.0 (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=62944.0)

I think what really gets up my nose is the mark up at 1.3 selling 70% actually free rolls the entire package + a small profit plus 30% of any profit before a hand is played..this is a piss take imo... why should players put absolutely nothing into a package?..the deal is structured to enable the player to play a whole schedule with no financial risk at all + a free dinner...blimey its like going out with Vinny :)

 rotflmfao

Don't think he did play for nothing, he collected $25 to cover his expenses...

but he gave bonus tournements.

Everyone keeps saying the value for Scoop 6 is in the bonus fund. Well maybe this is the same? Right? Im not being conned am i i took 110% of the package.

Even if I put the obvious grammatical error to one side for a second.

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/8961445_4ECA3163F4 (http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/8961445_4ECA3163F4)

Just sezzin.

Was that including the extra $25?  Man has to eat Nandos even when he bricks.  Expect you'd be happy so long as he didn't go soft on the sauce. 

The Facebook guy at 1.3, the funny thing is it's not the first time he has sold at 1.3.

People may say if there is demand then let the market decide, but surely people have to think about their morals?

I have customers who are more than willing to pay me £25 for door entry, but I choose a door fee of £15. I COULD choose the £25 door fee, but I know it's just too much & not worth it. My morals come into play here, even though I know I can get away with it? Do they have morals?

I repeat the rounded up numbers thing is just so laughable.

He used to charge 2.0 so 1.3 is pretty good now ;)

the issue for me is if people who know a limited amount about staking are investing thinking there getting a great deal then this is out of order, and the poker community should educate these people. If this is done by posting repeated questions every time a post goes up then so be it, it should save these people their hard earned money.

If for example a salesmen turned up at your door and offered you a great deal but you saw through it found the issues and knew he was mugging you off then you would turn him away, now if you knew he was then going to go next door to your little old lady neighbor, who has a bit of money but is always looking for ways of getting more, and offer the same deal. Would you warn her first or let her go ahead with the deal because she is blinded by the numbers and thinks shes onto something here. If you have morale's and are a nice person i would like to think you would help your neighbor out offer advice so they don't get ripped off.

Its easy for people who have had thousands of staking transactions to say "let the market decide" BUT as a poker community I think its in our best interest to look after new people to the community and people on the outskirts that are getting ripped off by people within the community.

This might get lost here with all this talk of specific players charging ridiculous mark ups but what do people think when MU is tiered? Such as if people but 1% MU = 1.3, 5% = 1.2, 10% = 1.12 etc. I feel this is exploiting the many buyers who like to buy 1% or 0.5% or something small for a sweat. It is reasonably common on 2p2 I think, which is where I occasionally sell my action and there are a lot of people buying under 2% of a lot of packages. Sure it is more of a hassle to send refunds to 20 different players for 1 package but it should only take 5 extra minutes compared to refunding to just 1 or 2 players.

Most of the time I assume players selling on facebook are doing so for 1 of 2 reasons, either they can't sell on forums for some reason, which is suspicious to me or they have a large fan base on facebook and it is easier for all involved to not need to post a SC graph and introduce themselves over and over again. Most of the time the facebook punters will have no effect on me and I just ignore it or wonder why they think it is ok to charge that amount but I am sure some people think that way when I sell on 2p2 and it is often very subjective. I have had good players come up to me and say they think I am really good value at certain prices and then I see other good players buying from others and avoiding mine so they must think I'm not worth it or possibly not good at all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on these but I don't think they should be necessarily always sharing it.

I think people that sell regularly or semi regularly will sell to the same people and sell a bunch through facebook, so its way faster to sell on facebook/skype to people who have taken pieces in the past and will probably buy again.

Can I just say that if my customers didn't mind whether I charged them £25 or £15 for door entry I would charge them £25 for door entry all day long.

Would let friends in for free mind.

Have you seen the mark up Tesco charges on some of it's products?

Petrol always cheapest at Waitrose. Don't go anywhere else, unless you're a mug of course.

Oh, how appalling.  One doesn't shop at Waitrose to be cheap.  One wants the hoi polloi to know one can afford to overpay.  One thinks the Facebook buyers were just doing the same thing here.  One has a right to pour one's wealth down the lavatory. 

Can kind of see both sides, but when it comes down to it, it's Caveat Emptor, surely?  I remember years ago same guy selling shares for the DTD £300 at something like £48 for 10%, with the selling point being the potential return of 10% of whatever the first place money was at the time, with no mention even of the actual buy in.  Did some people buy? Yes.  Did I (or anyone else) comment on the proposal? No, not as I recall.  Presumably everyone that bought in was happy to do so either a) having done the research and knowing what they were buying or b) not being bothered to check out fairly easily accessible information before parting with their cash, which they are also allowed to do as grown ups.

I charge more per day than some other carpenters I know
Why.....?
Because I think I am good value with all the kit I have and more importantly the experience I have

I wouldn't expect to be the same mark up in a steaking  thread as a more experienced poker player

Is this not the same thing ?

No

Quite a blunt answer would you care to elaborate ?

Experience is a very small factor in poker.

I could take a long time veteran of the game who is distinctly average and compare them to Tom Ambler or something

This pretty much sums it up.  If someone else sells at £48 per 10% in that spot are the people moaning jealous that they haven't got 'investors' who are as generous?  Why do people care if bad player's are staked into these events at what they consider 'bad' prices?

I've read through eight pages of this thread and find it comical that no one else commented on this post. Is that because all other posters in this thread are male? Do you all think this way?

The majority of women who play poker enter the game expecting to be treated as an equal to the men at their table. They soon realise this is never going to happen, thanks to ridiculous attitudes like yours.

You gave her the money back because she was upset. Why? She sat down to play poker that night knowing she could lose her £40 buy in, same as all of the other people playing that night. You stacking her then giving it back is not chivalrous, it's just ridiculous. What if she had won her money from a guy who was gambling his last £40 - she didn't give it back to him did she? The men she won money from may well have been broke themselves: they could have kids at home as well but you're not going to pay them back?

If she was out in the local pub playing poker and had a kid at home then she probably had to pay a sitter to look after the baby. Did you give her the cash for the sitter as well and her taxi fare home?

I think I'm actually just as ashamed for the woman. The fact she would take that back from you is a joke in itself. Again, most women in poker wouldn't dream of taking it back. They sit down to play knowing they could lose as well as win. If they chose to gamble when they couldn't afford to lose, then it's their own choice and ultimately, their own mistake. The few women in poker who choose to play the "I'm a girl" card instead of their hole cards are generally disliked or simply tolerated by other female poker players, for obvious reasons. Every time we sit down to play, this type of woman takes table equality back another step, and leaves the rest of us women having to put up with yet more Neolithic attitudes at the table.

Everyone has gambled when they couldn't afford to, me included. When I've chosen to do so, and have lost, I've walked away. If a man at my table had then offered to give me my money back I would have been mortified. I don't think I'm alone in this attitude surely?

Very good post, although not sure I'd be 'mortified' at taking back the money in such a spot, lol... if someone's got a daft enough outlook on such things to give a girl back her money then happy days for the girl.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Dubai has a daft outlook on things. However, I think this time it'd be better to keep the money and not play again if she's involved if she's going to make you feel like that.

I disagree but can't be bothered to get into a debate

Yes that's true, but she lets herself down putting herself in the situation where she gets upset at the table after losing and telling people she has a young baby. She probably laughed all the way home, saying to her mate "some old perv gave me my money back after I pretended to cry".

I still can't see why Dubai would give the cash back to her and not to any guy that he stacks though. You're either a charity or you're not.

Yes I'd agree with that also. If a woman crying after losing affects you - and I'd imagine most people would be affected - then don't play when she is there.

I would be just as affected, perhaps even more so, if a bloke started crying though.

That being said, I wouldn't give either their money back.

'mark ups getting out of hand'    what i do is i don't buy a piece of the person if i don't think what they're selling is value, then i go and eat some food or have a drink of something or maybe go out play some football who the hell knows, basically i carry on with the rest of my day. What i don't do is sit on my arse berating the person on Facebook for his 'high mark up' and tell him how he's not value, i just say it to myself ( lol look at this wally selling at 1.3, good luck)

Merry summer everybody x

/thread

I'm obv just a pushover. I wouldn't do it in a normal casino but it's a local pub game, only turn up for late drinks and to donate a few quid, don't wanna ruin people's days/life's/weeks

A fundamental point being missed here is that poker staking is an unregulated market.

In a regulated market, companies have to meet minimum standards of compliance, consumer access to information, right to complain, right to a reasonable service in relation to price paid, etc. in order to meet licensing requirements to trade. In a regulated market, market forces deciding the price is therefore much more likely to be effective and fair to the buyer.

A good example is payday lenders, selling 1000%+ APR 'markups' on loan  - is that fair or reasonable? If the buyer doesn't understand the consequences from the offset, defaults, then owes 3-4 times more 6 months later, is just putting it down to buyer ignorance appropriate? In this example, a large number of payday lenders have been gradually removed from the lending market as regulations tighten up on them. If the lending market wasn't regulated, they would continue to charge as much as they feel they can squeeze from customers.

An unregulated market absolutely relies on self regulation to provide some form of policing and buyer protection. In the long run the market is better for this. From an ethical viewpoint, I'd like to think most people would prefer a system where buyers are educated instead of being left open to the 'it's their money, let them buy if they choose' mindset.

But before u do all that u post on a thread about "mark ups getting out of hand"

That's fair enough, and decent of you.

So you give back any money you win each week to the men you play against?

Mouth, if I stacked you I would not give your money back, you could cry all you wanted. Hope this helps.

If it was a male I would have offered to lend him it back, expecting probably not to get it back but saves his pride more. Double standards I know. Silly I know

You once busted me in a £300 at Luton  :'(

Did you turn on the waterworks?

You also took about £200 of me playing £1/2 Omaha on DTD online cash game!
And I got 3 kids 😢😢😢

Gotta catch me in a good mood and after a beer :)

Just need the luck of catching you in a good mood then

Probably thought he was gonna get a happy ending

In response to the question you raised Dubai, I think it's an impossible one for a woman to answer.  I've sold percentages before - sometimes they sell, sometimes I've put requests up and got no response - same as most people I guess.  I couldn't really say whether the ones that have sold have sold because I'm a woman - I don't think so, but I don't have any experience of selling as a man, so have nothing to compare it to. I guess the question would be better asked of people that buy the shares, and if the gender of the seller has any bearing on whether or not they decide to invest?

Is part of the point of threads like this not to attempt to regulate it? I feel that I would have some sort of responsibility to "regulate" the sale of action if I felt that there was something wrong with the proposal, as was the case here and has been the case on this forum before. It would seem that others feel the same, that those "in the know" have a duty to make sure others aren't taken advantage of, from the responses itt and from various other threads recently.

the problem i have with the selling on facebook to a likely non poker playing market
is you feed them up showing your wins you never show the time you get knocked out before the money
they obviously think your good

you then show your OPR where you have opted out of showing your roi and say look i have won xxxxxx
but not how much it cost you to win that so none poker players think this is like backing a horse in the national
and punt thinking they are on a sure thing

I dont think dubai is massively out of line here. Pub games and casino games are different for one, if i have chunks and i know ive just taken the last dime of someone that is mortified i would want to give it back, why? because im human and there is more to this game then making money. Sometimes you cannot know someones personal circumstances before it happens if i do i would try and educate and give the "only gamble what you can afford to lose speech" but this is not always the case. If this person is a man or a women it does not really matter, it is unlikely (men or women) that you would see a break down at the poker table as i believe one in built trait of gamblers is denial, me included, we would rather deal with it in our own way then seaking help or sympathy. Then some people (men and women) could also break down,  it may be more likely for me to be kind to a women but is that not human nature? I have been brought up with respect for both women and men but in general the way i show that respect will depend on which gender im dealing with. For example i would comfort my dad different to how i would comfort my mum, this is because they deserve to be treated this way. If for example a women tripped and fell in the street i would approach this different to if it was a man. This is not because im sexist or anything its just what the situation dictates. Dubai wins this womens money in a nice social pub game and he gives it her back, so what? This is a good gesture not something to bemoan.

I have heard of a situation in manchester (could be an urban myth) in a hand where a guy is sat with £140 and has won up from £50. He gets involved in a pot pre flop where he has AA and ends up folding pre flop because "he cannot afford to buy his son nappies if he loses this pot" in this situation the guy who won the hand gave the guy his money back but insisted that he left the game and the casino.

anyway this thread was about mark ups right... back to it!

That Dubai, what a bastard. Sexist too. Should be outed on Facebook IMO.

The main question i have, is why was she out of the kitchen in the first place?

In before page 30

Poor banter.

Question: Why is the "Mark-ups getting out of hand" thread getting out of hand?

FYP

Can't believe people are that bothered to the tune of ten pages.
Just don't buy his poor value package and forget about it.

Because 10 pages in people still don't get it.

chuckled me after 12 cans of out of date john smiths

What to get?

I understand the attitude that if you don't wanna buy, don't but keep quiet, which is what i do 90% of the time when I see a thread where I think markup is too high. Probably around 5% of the time I still buy anyway because it's a friend or someone I want to see do well / help out.

The last 5% are the times I'd comment which I feel are warranted in exceptional circumstances.

The particular facebook post that everyone is talking about was very ambiguous and misleading. In that rare case I actually felt more comfortable making a slightly negative comment than not commenting at all. I commented because I felt that the post was not done correctly by the player (and this could help him in future as he sells a lot) and could help both parties avoid later disputes. Also, if the post was written better then I wouldn't have said anything but I felt that it was exploiting the good nature of people who otherwise don't know much about staking and poker and could be ripped off.

I hope there's this post one some other poker forum somewhere:

If the crying girl is attractive and giving her money back significantly increases my chances of sleeping with her then sure, i'd give her money back.

Thread just got good

I read that forum - gametheoryforgirls.com

They're thinking of making Dubai an honorary (but still fee paying) member.
There's lots of deep insight into strategy but it's a bit advanced for the average sot sucker kind hearted hero.

Couple of questions:

1 did it sell out?

2 did it make a profit?

if the answer to 2 is a "yes" then the markup is justified and should possibly be increased for the next staking!

What if the answer to one is yes and the answer to two is no?

How exactly do prices get out of hand in a free market?

Lack of regulation and sleight of hand?

You assuming all investors are rational and have access to full information?  Once you move away from this prices can get out of line in any market?  I assume these people haven't got access to his sharkscope to be able to make any assessment at all of his plo8 skills.  Suppose you were somebody who had enough information to make a better judgement where is your incentive to reveal it?

But paid prices being 'out of line' isn't the same as requested prices being 'out of hand'.

As you say owing to irrationality prices paid are rarely fair, but I suppose what I'm getting at is the way a supplier prices up in a free market can't really be questioned? Unless there are underhand tactics/deliberate deceptions I suppose.

Sure we are all violently agreeing anyway :)

Why are there no recurring threads about people spending their money on fags and booze?

Are you saying there weren't deliberate deceptions here?  Wouldn't be a conclusion others made.

As per PM wasn't even aware there was a particular case here!! Thought it was just general discussion...as you were :)

The thread would have been far more useful if it's actual point had been made in the first place, Ed. It was simply someone - one individual - being called out.

And those of us who ain't on Facebook just guess

Lol, I am not on FB either Lee, but I snap guessed who it was about. At the time, I posted "explosive stuff"......

Blatant subtlety.

But how much did he win?!?!?!?!?!?!

nada

The FB thread this is all in reference to was a total joke, I don't actually think the person did it with the intention of "misleading" anyone consciously, but I am 99% sure the ambiguous nature of the post was to hide the mark-up (even if it was sub-concious) because its blaringly obvious to people with an understanding on poker/poker tournaments that 1.3 cannot represent anywhere near good value* **

*no disrespect to his poker ability, but low-buy-in and small fields mean ROI's of 20-25% will be towards to top end for the best players in the field and for 1.3 to be a good deal he'd need to be starting somewhere near 50% which is unrealistic for these comps and I'm fairly sure the poster knows this too.

**I'm sure the poster is +EV in these comps.

I'd have liked to see the post start out with "Anyone wanna take a punt on me in these comps" and not all this "I usually sell out straight away" nonsense making it sound like its hot property. The post could have been an open, honest one and would have sold for sure, but all the smoke and mirrors make it seems very disingenuous which is why it caused controversy.

JUST IMO ofc.

At my local golf club, on our exchange and mart board, I once got offered an option to purchase a piece of genuine moon rock that was about the size of a golf ball. The person selling it was known to me, i wouldn't say he was a friend but we were networked through a shared interest - golf.  He did, as i understand it, through an uncle have strong connections to NASA and I was told it was an unbelievable investment at £5,000 and be certain to rise in value by several % per year.  Other people bought some. He had 6 or 7 pieces for sale and the stock was limited and you needed to be quick.  I couldn't prove whether it was great value, would go up in worth or was genuine as i didn't have access to all the full information at the time.  Neither me, nor anyone i knew was clued up on moon rock.  I didn't buy it, but instead invested in a classic car that was for sale at the same time on the same board for £4.5k that had all the service history, had been checked out by my cousin who is a car dealer and according to established market trends had seen its value rise in recent years and could definitely be sold at auction within a month for £6k. I had bought a similar one 6 months prior and had made £2k on it.

How is this story any different? I had a choice. I made one over the other, i wasn't forced into either but was offered both. I just chose not to invest in something that i couldn't validate the claims of. Its a free market. Packages will be offered at different rates and some will be offered with clearer terms that others. We are all adults, buyer beware.

How much is the moon rock worth now?

1.3

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLOeyGONgAILIPBnB78zn657mw86fmhpk8u4ZkF40V9lGqMDRGVbTtQpy3yQ)

Give or take a couple of pounds what someone is willing to pay for it.

Something something price has rocketed.

You're right Dave, people who make something sound like it's hot property when they sell it need to be told straight.

Come to think of it I remember watching QVC in some drunken haze and buying a universal fruit and vegetable slicer cos the woman said it was so amazing you wont be able to live without one. Well that's bollocks because 6 months down the track it's still unopened in the box and yet I'm perfectly fine.

Just use the £250 and Madame mysteries knocking shop, cheaper and your not worried about more kids mouths to feed as they are well protected

We've all been there, I bought myself £40s worth of amazon book vouchers because it was a 'hot deal'

Just buy yourself a book you mug.

Yo Mantis

Why do you think they have all that protection in place for people buying financial products?

For instance, if you sell payment protection insurance for 10 or 20 times its value and you didn't explain it properly, you have to pay the mugs who bought it back all their money plus interest.

and the rest of us have to put up with a lifetime of spam emails, annoying adverts and phone calls.

Why don't they do all this for mugs buying slicers on QVC?

financial product benefits and costs are easier to quantify, a tangible product less so... With a blender or whatever, it more comes down to what price someone will pay for it... supply and demand, how much competition's in the market, etc. The benefit can be more subjective top e.g. Moonrock... no practical benefit, but peeps just want some moonrock

Not sure?!? Is it something to do with the 14 day no quibble money back guarantee?

I like the comparison to financial products though. So really the guys who hunt around facebook looking to highlight poor value poker staking packages are seeking to offer the community protection like the financial ombudsman do. I think that's a great free service, well played lads. Actually I saw a similar unpaid group on telly the other day who spend their time standing by speed cameras dressed as caped crusaders and holding big signs to warn other motorists. In reality there's a lot of community spirit out there if you look for it imo.

How much is a £10k pension per year increasing with inflation and a spouses benefit of % worth to a fireman age 55?  Rather be him than a man with £100k cash?

How's the firemans health?

This isn't anything to do with the Facebook post, it's pretty general. But all in all that Facebook post was just incredible.

People ask why ten pages? But when others are reading this, they may think twice about a high mark up.

Mr Doobs, what point are you making?

Firstly, it'd be simple enough for a pension advisor to make a fairly accurate comparison of a lump sum v annuity type income in your example, estimating inflation to a decent degree of accuracy etc... people get paid a lot of money by rich folk to make such assessments. Why £100k, why not £50k/£40k? At what figure does your decision sway to opting for the pension?
In your example, given the 'fireman's' age and job, £100k is a no brainer to opt for, he may not live long enough to realise in the longterm what £100k of value upfront today is. Which kinda backs up my whole point... we have quantifiable figures to work with, in this case assess risk/age, then make a decision?

Hmmm

Well he got the no brainer bit right.  We have financial regulation because these things aren't easier to quantify than your man's veggie slicer. 

I have the dubious pleasure of being an independent financial adviser.

I just checked the best annuity rates.

For a 55 year old non smoking male with a wife 3 years younger who are both in good health, it would take a lump sum of £470,000 to purchase an annuity of £10,000 which was RPI linked with a 50% spouses pension (a fireman's pension is index linked).

I know some might not believe that figure but its correct.

RPI linked benefits are really, really expensive to buy in the open market and no one buys them. The only people who have them in reality are people in final salary pension schemes who sometimes don't appreciate what a valuable benefit being RPI linked is.

It would be total madness for anyone to take £100k cash instead of an index linked £10,000 per annum annuity.

nobody answered my question about the fireman's health.  I think he has type 2 diabetes (hba1c is 8.2) & a family history of heart disease

where do we stand now?

Type 2 diabetes isn't so bad.  You aren't going to get him down to 100k for that pension with something like that.  I don't think it is easy for a layman to value, and even I'd struggle if you added some weird and wonderful illness to our hero's pension.  It is fairly similar to your facebook staking requests, it seems obvious to us that it isn't great value, but that doesn't mean others who aren't familiar with poker will see it.  Bit like your fireman's pension, you get trade unionists on the box telling us these aren't rich people and they are only going to earn £15k a year from their pensions.  I just sit there and think I can't imagine you'd be saying that if Fireman Sam had half a million in his back pocket.

On mark up's its refreshing to see established and respected pro's like Dubai charging 1.1, Julian 1.03 and Stuart Rutter 1.05 on Blonde's live staking thread.

If someone is daft enough to pay 1.3 or higher to others let them get on with it.

Why they would want to pay it when you see the examples above is beyond me.

ON an $80k package, 5% is $4k, which will go a long way towards covering a flight and lodgings.  So 1.05 "for expenses" is one thing.  If someone tried to sell that package at 1.3 "for expenses" that amounts to $24k!!  Quite clearly at that point, it isn't a premium for expenses, but a premium for the opportunity.

I personally vowed to stop buying any player at any markup a long time ago (and with the very occasional moment of weakness, have kept to it)  If that was the norm, you would eventually reach an equilibrium where the only stakes offered were the ones where the player truly needed the help of backers to play. 

I realise that approach means I regularly turn down some potentially +EV opportunities.

What about established and respected pros who run auctions to drive the price up?

I am also curious to know people's thoughts to people who constantly mark up certain tournaments saying they have an edge in that tournament, but yet have never cashed it.

I could name the WSOP main event as one which people say they have a huge edge in and every single year they do not cash in it. Yet mark it up between 1.3-1.6.

When you take into account the WSOP Main Event cashes go up very gradually, with the difference between finishing 600th and 200th for example not huge,  I think it's bonkers for anyone to consider paying any significant markup on the ME.
To get deep enough to make the big bucks, a player has to play 6-7+ days, which no-one can say they have adequate live experience of to be considered an expert/value in that particular tourney. Random factors like fatigue, mental strength, player consistency etc are harder to evaluate given there isn't a big enough sample size of MEs to determine who is the best at 8-9 day events. As it's such a long structure, it's almost inevitable you will have to get lucky on a few occasions if you're going to FT it. More likely to encounter cooler situations and key flips than in a regular event, simply as there's far more players to get through over a longer period. Just as you have more time to get lucky, you have more time to get unlucky.
It's a brilliant event in terms of entertainment and letting us dreamers dream, but I think markup upwards of 1.1-1.2 would be crazy investments for buyers.

Just lolz. I've never cashed in the GUKPT Goliath. Guess if I ever need to sell for that one I best sell at spot.

Best throw in a bonus tournament or two if selling at that. 

rest pls. up to 100% ;)

lolz 0.8 brah, you know till we're confident you know what you're doing!

If you look closely I mentioned WSOP and mark ups that are upto 1.6.

fyp

Aaron I've played the WSOP main twice and cashed twice. Does this mean a mark-up of 1.6 is adequate for me?

depends, have you cashed for 1.6x entries? ;)

Did I ask this Dan, unasked for thoughts.

I have no thoughts on it.

Read again.

i've read this a few times but still don't get it, what are unasked for thoughts.

what have a missed?

Spellcheck on phone keeps doing me over

I was quoting three current staking mark ups at sensible figures.

If someone is stupid enough to pay silly mark ups with or without an auction, more fool them.

In general if people don't buy at inflated unreasonable mark ups then the price will drop.

Buying a piece in someone is the same as making any kinda of bet, firstly it's very common to pay a small premium on any bet you make (betfair commission, bookies rounding markets, commission for stockbrokers etc) so mark-up as a concept sits very naturally into this environment.

What relly irks me about some staking threads is the "I'm giving you a fantastic opportunity here" attitude, when it's basically, the same as a tip on the horses, someone says this horse at 10/1 should be 7/1 get on, yes it's +EV but you have all the same things to worry about as taking a piece in the tournament 1) as good a bet as it is it still very may well not win, 2) the person providing the Information might just be totally wrong/not k ow his stuff as he claims, 3) a lot of variance.

For me its the fact WE ARE DOING THEM a favour at the end of the day rather than the other way round because 'its a great opprtunity blah blah', so I object to most marks ups because of that these days.

4) Silvestre De Sousa is prolly less likely to drop off $5k on the craps table prior to weighing in.

Bit harsh I think. Pub games are much different to a casino - more casual play where people don't really get the concept of rules against reducing etc. I'd imagine if she could she'd have kept banking any winnings and didn't ever want to risk £250 in one go. It just so happened that some pissed up billy big balls came along and covered the whole table before stacking her :) Before that they were prob all limping preflop and never getting over £30 a pot.