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Poker Forums => Poker Hand Analysis => Topic started by: bergeroo on June 19, 2014, 04:15:18 PM



Title: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: bergeroo on June 19, 2014, 04:15:18 PM
Five handed at a SCOOP final table $215 buy in. The villain in this hand is a British midstakes reg. Someome who I had anticipated coming into the final would be very ICM aware and play good. I respect his game. Nevertheless this is a huge final for him as it is for me. I guess he probably knows me in some way, but we haven't played a tonne of hands together or have a huge history.

Payouts
5th: $47,370.50
4th: $62,974.90
3rd: $91,954.50
2nd: $129,850.90
1st: $174,359.20

I came into the final second in chips but have been handcuffed by the chipleader on my left and as a consequence played pretty tight.

I am utg five handed and villain is on the button. I have him covered by 2bbs. We both currently have just over 50bbs and are sitting in 3rd and 4th. There is one shorty with 15bbs.

PokerStars Hand #116089812324: Tournament #894306881,

$200+$15 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XLIII

(100000/200000) - 2014/05/12 15:14:51 ET
Table '894306881 468' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: kavlleas08 (15351075 in chips)
Seat 2: villain (10484318 in chips)
Seat 5: cronevelt (15886831 in chips)
Seat 7: final rival (3167744 in chips)
Seat 9: bergeroo (10840032 in chips)
kavlleas08: posts the ante 25000
villain: posts the ante 25000
cronevelt: posts the ante 25000
final rival: posts the ante 25000
bergeroo: posts the ante 25000
cronevelt: posts small blind 100000
final rival: posts big blind 200000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bergeroo [Kc Qc]
bergeroo: raises 244000 to 444000
kavlleas08: folds
villain: raises 691000 to 1135000
cronevelt: folds
final rival: folds
bergeroo: calls 691000
*** FLOP *** [Ks 2h 9d]
bergeroo: checks
villain: bets 1051000
bergeroo: calls 1051000
*** TURN *** [Ks 2h 9d] [2c]
bergeroo: checks
villain: checks
*** RIVER *** [Ks 2h 9d 2c] [8h]
Hero?

On the river there is 4.8m in the pot with effective stacks of 8.2m


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: pleno1 on June 19, 2014, 04:42:37 PM
limp pre? :P

anway, would bet river and feel very happy about it i imagine he continues ott with ak and has a bunch of kxs hands that 3bet pre flpp and can cape you with qq,jj kinda hands occasionally.

i guess the only question is sizing, i want to go for his kx to call us rather than qq/jj as they block the combos he wants us to bluff from so id go big. he wont fold kx


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: wazz on June 19, 2014, 06:41:03 PM
Don't think we have much of a bluffing range and as such think the range of hands he's betting when checked to is wider than that he's calling with. Really wouldn't feel comfortable bet-calling here either.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: muckthenuts on June 19, 2014, 07:54:19 PM
Yeah our bet/calling range has got to be very narrow right, like 99 only? Probs best to avoid giving him that option.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: willrobrobu on June 19, 2014, 09:21:55 PM
yeh i'd check/call most bets


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: LeeMcshane on June 20, 2014, 10:57:52 AM
Definate check calling or making an thin value bet so slightly worse hands call dependent on his river plays


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: youthnkzR on June 20, 2014, 11:00:34 AM
Really clear bet / fold in my eyes.

Think we can totally factor out him realising that we need exactly and only 99 to bet / call river due to knowing villain is a MS reg and therefore probably not confirmed sicko. Even if he does realise this in those seconds, the difference between realising and actually doing on a FT of this scale is enormous - especially with the short stack.

When we bet river we basically have either: KQx / KJx / QJx / J10x / 99x  

I find it hard to believe that a MS reg is going to jam a complete airball over a bet with 0 blockers. When he does have blockers (Kx / 9x) - hes so much more likely to call than jam as this means theres less combos we can have for value and more bricked straight draws...etc. Hes also gonna have QQ / JJ / Worse Kx which take this line a lot, and a good % of time these hands wont bet the river for value.

Had a much longer post typed out but deleted it by accident. CLIFFS: Bet / fold is the way. Bet / call is really bad. Checking isn't an option if we want to win unless we have some specific reads.

As for sizing would go 3.1m - seems a nice size :)


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: willrobrobu on June 20, 2014, 12:02:37 PM
youthink is right he bluffs v rarely vs yr bet on river. so bet/f is fine. im still check/calling here though as i think we just get too many folds to a river bet. he is much more likely to bluff when checked to than call light IMO.

depends a bit on how u perceive each other though

if you think he is being so cautious as to never be betting river if you check to him with QQ/JJ/TT/KJ/KT for value or making bluffs for a rel small % of his stack then obviously check/call is a bad move.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: WotRTheChances on June 20, 2014, 01:17:52 PM
I'd probs bet 55% pot or something on river and fold to raise.

What do people think about c/r flop? Not as standard in this spot, but it looks pretty FOS with JQ/TJ/QT type stuff as our perceived value range for c/r this flop is probably like 22/99/AA, so this could induce.
I know ICM wise it's awful to bust in this spot, but maybe that makes this idea better? because it makes our perceived value range even narrower and thus the amount we are perceived to be FOS here becomes huge.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: youthnkzR on June 20, 2014, 02:32:53 PM
I'd probs bet 55% pot or something on river and fold to raise.

What do people think about c/r flop? Not as standard in this spot, but it looks pretty FOS with JQ/TJ/QT type stuff as our perceived value range for c/r this flop is probably like 22/99/AA, so this could induce.
I know ICM wise it's awful to bust in this spot, but maybe that makes this idea better? because it makes our perceived value range even narrower and thus the amount we are perceived to be FOS here becomes huge.

Not a huge fan of playing a bloated pot out of position with one pair on a FT of this scale, especially after in theory taking a weaker range to the flop after being 3bet pre and peeling. Much prefer a line like: lead flop / check/call turn / lead river because this way we dictate sizing but also don't allow his worse value hands a chance to check behind river an potentially hero us with his A highs..Etc if it runs out brick brick. On phone ATM so this probably a bad explanation of what I mean.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: WotRTheChances on June 20, 2014, 03:14:55 PM
I'd probs bet 55% pot or something on river and fold to raise.

What do people think about c/r flop? Not as standard in this spot, but it looks pretty FOS with JQ/TJ/QT type stuff as our perceived value range for c/r this flop is probably like 22/99/AA, so this could induce.
I know ICM wise it's awful to bust in this spot, but maybe that makes this idea better? because it makes our perceived value range even narrower and thus the amount we are perceived to be FOS here becomes huge.

Not a huge fan of playing a bloated pot out of position with one pair on a FT of this scale, especially after in theory taking a weaker range to the flop after being 3bet pre and peeling. Much prefer a line like: lead flop / check/call turn / lead river because this way we dictate sizing but also don't allow his worse value hands a chance to check behind river an potentially hero us with his A highs..Etc if it runs out brick brick. On phone ATM so this probably a bad explanation of what I mean.

I'm aware of those things and that's why i'd basically always take the c/c route, but just from villains perspective, what range are you assigning us if we take the c/r flop line? I'd assume villain in this hand isn't only 3-betting super-premiums in this spot, so what do you think thought processes would be from him if were to get c/raised on this flop with hands that aren't AK/AA/KK/99?

My only thought of this is because I remember going through a HH with an online sicko playing an FT (albeit a relatively small one) where he peels A7s to a 3b and c/r gets in on like A83 or something, reasoning that he thought villain would never expect him to take this line with Ax and would spazz off loads. Obviously this is a completely different spot in terms of getting it in, but the principle is similar.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: youthnkzR on June 20, 2014, 03:32:34 PM
I know your aware, and although the line u suggest is pretty cool (I like it for most games), I just think all those factors when coupled with it being a very rare opportunity being this specific FT means we should stick to a lower variance style. Personally if I was villain I wouldn't be folding anything I bet the flop for value with to just one bet however when it comes to the later streets I would 100% re-evaluate, it just seems such a strange board for bergeroo to c/r and take off down further streets on and be totally FOS. e.g. I wouldn't be loving life with Kx otf, however I would like to think I am competent enough to not lose 3 streets of bets post flop every time when he takes this line. I also think your line depends a lot on sizings to how much u get. Also the shortstack is the BB which may / may not make a difference to his 3betting range.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: WotRTheChances on June 20, 2014, 04:35:25 PM
fwiw when i said 'I'm aware of those things' that wasn't meant to be like a snappy arrogant thing, just like a 'yeah, but how about this...'.
Generally taking the low-variance standard line will be best... I mean i'm probs more likely to fold pre than get funky ool post lol. I do like to think of alternative approaches to hands and taking unstandard lines, just to get an idea of the pros/cons


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: bergeroo on June 20, 2014, 10:07:49 PM
I made the decision to check call the flop rather than leading or check raising because yeah I did prefer to keep the pot smaller oop at this stage and situation in the tournament.

For those saying check call the river. Does the size of a river bet affect your decision. Are you still calling an almost full pot bet?

For those saying bet the river, is it a bet/fold, or would you consider bet/calling?

In the actual hand I bet 2.1m on the river which I believe is too small. I prefer betting about 3m. My opponent then shoved for 8.2m......................



Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: lucky_scrote on June 21, 2014, 10:21:12 AM
I honestly think bet folding is the best line. Made a long post yesterday but it seemed crazy to just check fold river but I honestly can't see him taking off on the river. Almost nobody does this with AQ and bluffs these days and is more likely to go check bomb bomb rather than bet check bomb. It's hard to say what part of his range he's betting and checking the flop with, but it's entirely reasonable for him to check the turn with his good hands because it's tough for him to get 3 streets with AK AA 99 here. If he has AK then he already has a K blocker and you kinda have to specifically have KQ for him to have any chance of getting 3 streets.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: action man on June 21, 2014, 11:14:42 AM
Who is villain?


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: Pinchop73 on June 21, 2014, 11:33:58 AM
Mollie


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: bergeroo on June 21, 2014, 02:04:23 PM
yeah, villain is Martin Malone...


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: bergeroo on June 24, 2014, 02:16:22 PM
Results.

I bet 2.1m on the river. He shoved and I tank folded. On the replay I saw he had KK. In retrospect it is quite an easy fold to the shove but I was reluctant to let it go. Vs a different opponent or in a smaller tournament I might have bet/called. Maybe...

 I like my play until the river and there I'm still not sure if check call or bet fold is the best play. I'd probably lean towards bet fold, but bet a bit bigger. 3m.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: youthnkzR on June 24, 2014, 02:29:11 PM
Fwiw I would lead turn here a lot for like 1.6m. Hes not gonna continue to bluff that much whereas he will check back QQ JJ 1010 / worse Kx a lot which may not bet but will call.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: bergeroo on June 24, 2014, 04:59:18 PM
So you lead the turn and he calls and then v quick maths tell me there is about a pot sized bet on the river, so you check river with the plan to fold if he puts you all in? Check call any smaller bets on the river?


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: youthnkzR on June 24, 2014, 05:20:53 PM
I really didn't look at stacks sizes. Would go like 2m on turn and check/fold all rivers.Think it's hard for him to bluff river once we take this line and he's only gonna bet when we're beat


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: bergeroo on June 25, 2014, 01:27:47 AM
This seems a reasonable plan and reasoning with this hand in this spot. For value we are really only going to get one street realistically and we are trusting him to play quite straightforward and so we feel we can bet fold either the turn or as played, the river.

Do you think it is important to be balanced here? If so, what other types of hands would you be planning to take the check call flop and lead turn line? 99? AK? Any bluffs at all?

I really didn't look at stacks sizes. Would go like 2m on turn and check/fold all rivers.Think it's hard for him to bluff river once we take this line and he's only gonna bet when we're beat


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: Honeybadger on June 26, 2014, 09:59:36 PM
Don't understand the plethora of recommendations for weird out of tempo lines in PHA at the moment, such as c/c flop, donk turn in this hand.

So we have a bluff catcher on the flop, hence c/c. But on a turn that does nothing to improve our range we suddenly have a value hand, hence donk. Yet if villain were to call the turn donk we suddenly no longer have either a value hand nor a bluff catcher, hence c/f the river. Wtf?


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: youthnkzR on June 27, 2014, 01:35:57 PM
Fail to see how our had purely a bluff catcher on the flop when he can be betting a lot of worse hands for value

As for the rest, if your happy to check call 3 with KQ on this run out then than fair enough, because let's face it if we c/c c/c, our hand is too strong to fold river. But personally I don't really want to put more than two streets in with it so am happier taking a more unorthodox line. By leading we get him to put $ in with parts of his value range on the turn, we beat which may check back. These hands will never be turned into bluffs vs us on the river due to how polerizing our turn bet should appear to him. IMO he also peels Hands e.g. AQ to one single bet occasionally. I also expect him to check back AK occasionally and AA rarely on the river, due to the nature of our turn bet, however these hands would always bet et bet vs us check calling down So therefore once expect significantly better hands to put any money in on river.

Cliffs: we get to showdown for 2 streets of betting due to how polerizing our turn bet appears to him, rather then calling3 bets blindly.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: youthnkzR on June 27, 2014, 01:41:37 PM
.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: Honeybadger on June 27, 2014, 03:11:21 PM
I agree that KQ is not a pure bluff catcher on the flop. It is a 'top of the range' bluff catcher, in that it does beat some of the hands that villain will be betting for value/protection.

However, by c/c we are PLAYING it like a bluff catcher. Which is pretty much in keeping with the strength of both our actual hand and our range on this flop - i.e. we are unlikely to have AK/AA or sets due to preflop so the majority of our range is mid-strength. It should be villain that has the more polarised range here, not us (i.e. again due to preflop).

The thing is, since we want two streets of value from this hand then we are far better off checking the turn and then betting for value on the river if villain checks back. This is because when villain checks back our hand is a very, very clear value bet vs his range, whereas if we lead the turn we are doing so blind into an uncapped range. Of course, villain can check back some nutted stuff on the turn to trick us (as he in fact did here), but overall his range is much weaker once he has checked the turn rather than bet.

By donking the turn we strengthen villain's range to the extent that not only are we unable to value bet the river, but we also don't want to c/c the river (you said you'd fold on ANY river card). This sort of line (betting early streets for value/protection OOP then checking the river) is partly justifiable on wet boards since it gives you protection from draws, but even then it is a dangerous line to take since you are bloating a pot and then putting yourself in a tough decision on the river in a big pot. But in this hand there is no need to protect your hand, it is a WA/WB spot, so I just can't see why you'd want to donk turn then fold river rather than checking turn.

You say you are relying on the fact that your turn donk will seem polarised to villain so he will let you get to showdown easily on the river. I just can't see this myself. Maybe some villains will indeed think "oh he has 99 or a bluff", but I would have thought most villains will see this line for exactly what it is. And the reason for this is because so much of your range is mid-strength on the flop, and nothing has changed. So why should you suddenly be able to represent a polarised range? If I was villain and you led turn then checked river I certainly would not be checking back the river with AA or AK as you suggest he might do.

Cliffs: I like the way OP played the hand.


Title: Re: SCOOP final table spot vs British reg
Post by: youthnkzR on June 27, 2014, 09:17:06 PM
You may not check back AA / AK but I'm pretty sure there would be a few nits who would be more likely to rather than if we took a std c/c down line. Wouldn't be folding on a king river!

The main part of my post was more that we get 2 streets from worse Kx / hands 10s through Qs / maybe other pairs who may hero fold river to a bet vs a check/bet/call, check/check, bet - line, and get to showdown more as villain will be value betting a narrower range and bluffing really rarely due to him having showdown of some form after calling turn bet / and also us appearing more polerized to some villains - who will then be more inclined to check back. Therefore if we do face a bet we fold easily.