blonde poker forum

Live Tournament fairly deep.

blinds 6k 12k

hero playing 160k villain playing 300k and is experienced player

7 players on table

Hero  Ac Tc  mid pos opens to 30k folds round to villain in big blind who asks how much I'm playing behind then calls.

flop  Js 5s 2c

Villian first to act then bets 50k   

Is it a fold, shove or call ?? I was never expecting villain to bet here - expecting a check to me even with strong hands 

Thoughts?

Thank you

Shove pre.

average stack is 200k, still shove?

i would prefer to shove pre flop! on this board i think it's feasible villain will be taking the lead with gutshots + overcard like A3/4 and pair hands weighted away from the jack like 5x and A2 and maybe anywhere up to 99's

your hand is pretty poor agaisnt that range

Board: Js5s2c
   Equity   Win   Tie
MP2   36.27%   34.84%   1.43%   { AcTc }
MP3   63.73%   62.30%   1.43%   { 99-66, 44-33, A5s-A2s, 75s, 65s, 54s, A5o-A2o, 65o }

so you only got 35% equity here even if he is never betting a jack and most likely zero fold equity when you are all in for 80k more. i never see villain folding if you shove. it's a fold for sure, i dont think i would ever expect villain to b/f or to have complete air when he bets flop.

Yh, the average stack is less important that you don't have many big blinds. A jam pre for me and a fold now, be very surprised to see him donk bet/fold for your remaining stack.

Ship pre because vs short stacks live players abs love a

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Ship pre seems ugly at ~15BB's if it's a soft field which it very often is live.

As played, fold

Hero has just over 13 BBs I think. If hero really wants to give himself the option to raise/fold then min-raising preflop is preferable, rather than 2.5x. I am not normally too fussed about tiny differences in opening sizes, and I believe that many MTT players think exact preflop sizing is much more important than it really is. However, with 13 BBs it is actually pretty important - that extra 0.5 BB is a substantial part of hero's stack.

Open jamming still much better though IMO.  ATs is not really strong enough to want to induce a jam, but is too strong to raise/fold. If opening from the BTN/CO then min-raising (to call a jam, not to fold!) becomes at least somewhat interesting, although I would personally still prefer to just jam.

You don't say if there are antes in the game.  If the antes are 600 or 1000 (which they could easily be at this level) then it's the easiest shove pre ever.  No antes i think the other players stack sizes come into play more and the pay out structure etc.  I still think i am shoving this pre even with no antes.

this is a shove

minraise or shove pre, as played its horrible but think im folding, just dont expect any folds.

Interested in what the tourney guys think about the merits of min-raising vs jamming if you had this hand on the BTN. Higher variance to raise/call obv, but is it likely to have a higher chipEV? I think I'd always just jam the BTN with ATs and 13 BBs, but wonder if raise/call is better...

I'd be very surprised if shoving was better than minraise calling from the button.

r/c ATs for 13bb on the button virtually always. Depending on the blinds I'd have concerns about long term balance and the like  but in general yeah r/c > jam imo

The trouble with r/c pre is that all too often we still find ourselves in the same spot we're in here.

Especially true live. We get flatted pre by so many hands that 'should' have either folded or jammed and are left to guess/fold on the majority of flops when we're donked into.

Shoving keeps things simple and is profitable I agree. I would shove from every position apart from possibly the cutoff/button/small blind. If your uncomfortable making decisions on flops then this is a good route to take even in those positions. I think flop play with this hand and situation would be simple enough once we are comfortable enough making assumptions on our opponents ranges, this is largely just practice and knowing your opponent/having experience to draw upon. Each time you have to see a flop with 11 big blinds back and 4.5-5.5 in with one opponent with the betting lead and in position just accept you are making money/have already made a bunch of money and go from there. Forcing yourself out of your comfort zone will help you improve as a player. I feel like I have a significant advantage in certain spots/stack sizes, where I have taken an unusual line before or just have  a lot of experience, ie limping buttons with 30bb which gives me an edge. Think of raise/calling here as the crosscourt backhand finisher in tennis, its pretty important if your a pro but not really needed if your having some fun in the park. 

The hand from OP is a prime example, we would have a relatively tough spot if c/r'd, things are awkward, but our opponent has let us off by allowing us to make an easy fold. I think this example should ease our concerns about raise/calling, our opponent presumably flopped well and let us off cheap. Lets play some poker. It might feel unclean to cbet 1.65bb and fold or check/fold having put in a fifth of our stack but sometimes these things happen.

a couple of people have said you wont see any folds when you re-raise all in on this flop. i think this is completely untrue and have seen many donkbets v shortstack fold to reraise. i presume in these instances they absolutely whiff the flop and rather than check/folding prefer to have a stab vs a perceived tight player. i'm not advocating the reraise in this instance but i think you need to include a small number of bluffs in oppos range when calculating yr equity here

This is a much better way of phrasing what I was saying. :)

Very blind dependant whether I'm shoving or raising the btn. If it was a FT I think if be shoving.

Good stuff Adam.
No antes right?  Makes shoving less fun

Hey pleno in a vacuum I would agree without doubt and math wise it's also going to be profitable.
We make no mention of our image in the op though. It is fair to say that deep in a live comp we will have built up
an image or even at worst we will have a set image. For instance young/old regular/inexperienced.

As Alex alludes to this alone is vital and important information with our decision here. And there is very little information
on stack sizes and opponents behind us and a host of other factors. I mean are we near the bubble(you know I love ICM).

Once these things are answered we can get a more decisive answer rather than "This is a shove" which while no doubt
correct is probably not that helpful to a new player.

And I think a min can be a good option as long as our post flop play is good. Go and go unless its donked is an option
especially for a skilled player as live players put far to much emphasis on survival. But shoving takes away any potential postflop
problems that could be leaks in certain games.

I really like the way you have explained things in this post Adam. I even had a little Ah-Ha moment about something you said :)

Excellent post agreed.

fwiw my point was relating to if we were on the button. I think it's a jam from MP or HJ (can't remember OP) regardless of who's in the blinds, as there's everyone else behind as well and live ppl do like to peel.

Just pointing out that you actually mentioned image of players behind. Seven handed its a fist pump jam. Would jam it nine handed utg also.