blonde poker forum

Some of Betway's terms and conditions are just horrible. Clauses 4.6 / 5.6 and 15.3 are pretty bad but 16.3 and 16.6 are in a class of their own and we just laugh at 16.13

https://betway.com/terms/

Interesting thread on Betfair forum here with specific cases quoted:

http://community.betfair.com/horse_racing/go/thread/view/94102/30381289/betwaycom?origpost_id=542222907&pg=1

Many Google searches will show where funds and winnings have been 'confiscated'. They can even confiscate all your funds if they think you are a 'pro' (16.3 vii)

The important bits...


4.6 Dormant / Inactive Accounts

Betway will consider an account to be dormant / inactive after a period of 6 months after the last account login.

Applicable to Customers who are not residents of the UK: Should Betway consider an account to be dormant / inactive for a period exceeding 30 months, it will be de-activated / locked. If the account holds a balance, Betway shall attempt to contact you with a view to return any remaining funds. Should this not be possible, the remaining account balance (if any) shall be remitted to the Lotteries and Gaming Authorities (LGA) of Malta.

In addition, an administration fee of 5.00 Euros will be deducted from a dormant / inactive account on a monthly basis until such a time as the account is no longer in credit, has become active once again, or has been inactive for a period exceeding 30 months. The first fee will be charged at the end of the 6th month after the last account login was recorded.

Applicable to Customers who are residents of the UK: an administration fee of 5.00 GBP will be deducted from a dormant / inactive account on a monthly basis until such a time as the account is no longer in credit, has become active once again. The first fee will be charged at the end of the 6th month after the last account login was recorded.


5.6 Withdrawal Limits

Customers who withdraw a sum of money that is 5 times or more greater than their lifetime deposits at Betway will only be able to withdraw their winnings at a sum of 4,000€ (for Customers who are residents of the UK, 4,000 GBP) per week. The remaining amount will be placed back in the customer’s account until such time that they are eligible for a further withdrawal. This clause will only be applied at the discretion of Betway management. Note: Progressive Jackpot wins are exempt from this clause.

15.3 No arbitrage

You are strictly prohibited from utilising Betway and it systems to facilitate arbitrage through Currency Exchange transactions. Where Betway deems that you have deliberately used the systems for financial gain through arbitrage, any gains will be forfeited and deducted from your balance without warning or notification.

16.3 Termination of Account

Betway reserves the right to cancel your account for any reason whatsoever at any time without notifying you. Any balance in your account at the time of such a cancellation will be credited to your credit/debit card or financial account. We also reserve the right, at our sole discretion, to void any winnings and confiscate any balance in your Betway account in any of the following circumstances:

i. If you have more than one active account at Betway;
ii. If the name registered on your Betway account does not match the name on the financial/bank account and/or the credit/debit card(s) used to make deposits on the said Betway account;
iii. If you participate in a promotion and submit a withdrawal before fulfilling the requirements of that particular promotion;
iv. If you provide incorrect or misleading information while registering a Betway account;
v. If you are not of legal age to gamble;
vi. If you have allowed or permitted (intentionally or unintentionally) someone else to Participate using your Betway account;
vii. If you have played in a professional capacity, or in tandem with other Customer(s) as part of a club, group, etc., or placed bets or wagers in a coordinated manner with other Customer(s) involving the same (or materially the same) selections; in this instance we further reserve the       right, at our sole discretion, to restrict the total maximum pay out for the combined total of any such bets, to the equivalent of the Maximum Payout Limits permitted for a single Customer (as outlined in the Betway Rules). Betway is for sole use on an individual basis and for personal entertainment only.
viii. If Betway has received a “charge back” and/or a "return" notification via a deposit mechanism used on your account;
ix. If you are found colluding, cheating, money laundering or undertaking any kind of fraudulent activity at Betway;
x. If it is determined by Betway that you have employed or made use of a system (including machines, computers, software or other automated systems such as bots etc) designed specifically to defeat the gaming system or Betway;
xi. If you use our Website, Software or your account in bad faith;
xii. If you make statements that are sexually explicit or offensive while using our chat facility, this includes expressions of bigotry, racism, hatred or profanity;
OR
xiii. If Betway should become aware that you have played at any other Casino under any of the circumstances set out at (i) to (xii) above arise in respect of your use of any gambling services provided by other operators of such services.

16.6 Irregular Play

Before any withdrawals are processed, your Participation will be reviewed for any irregular betting patterns. In the interests of fair gaming; equal, zero or low margin bets or hedge betting, shall all be considered irregular gaming for bonus playthrough requirement purposes. Other examples of irregular betting include, but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% of the bonus credited to your account before the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met. Should Betway deem that you have indulged in irregular game play, we reserve the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or to confiscate all of your winnings.


16.13 Explanation of Terms and Conditions

We consider these Terms and Conditions to be fair. Should you need any advice regarding these or any other part of our service, please contact Customer Service.

Please note that all correspondence and telephone calls may be recorded.

Last updated: 30/10/2014 at 14:30 GMT.

shock horror :)

As discussed months ago in tft they are only heading one way and it is not up

Clause 16.3 (vii) could be used to confiscate all funds including winnings for anyone that has posted on FRED or bet on something recc'd on FRED.

Think that's called a "catch-all" Clause!


vii. If you have played in a professional capacity, or in tandem with other Customer(s) as part of a club, group, etc., or placed bets or wagers in a coordinated manner with other Customer(s) involving the same (or materially the same) selections; in this instance we further reserve the       right, at our sole discretion, to restrict the total maximum pay out for the combined total of any such bets, to the equivalent of the Maximum Payout Limits permitted for a single Customer (as outlined in the Betway Rules). Betway is for sole use on an individual basis and for personal entertainment only.

Almost every firm has a clause like 4.6.  Years ago when I first started in the game at BMU I was responsible for their first ever website and and wrote all of their rules and had a huge row with VC and the CEO when they asked me to include it.  It did my career there no good at all but I said then and still maintain that at best it takes advantage of punters and at worst is downright theft.

does 16.6 (vii) mean if you punt based on a tipster in a daily rag you will get your loses confiscated?

I emailed the manager link arbboy provided yesterday after my account details failed and my forgotten password link didn't work.

I sent this:
To: manager@betway.com
Subject: Regarding account closure

I had an account with Betway, and seem unable to login. I believe this means you have closed my account and failed to email me regarding the matter. I would like a full account history (deposits/withdrawals, and every bet) emailed to this address, and will be following up with an email to your licencing body about your frankly shocking business practices.

Regards, Adam.



"Dear Adam

Username: (Removed)

Thank you for contacting Betway.
As per our terms and conditions, Betway reserves the right to cancel your account at any time without notifying you.
All Betway accounts are reviewed on a regular basis and due to betting patterns on this account a decision was made to close it.
Please be aware that this decision was made at the highest level and consideration and will not be reversed.
Should you require any further assistance feel free to contact our friendly help desk.  We are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for your convenience.

Kind Regards,

Nicholas"

Adam Picken: Hello Tove
Adam Picken: I recently discovered you closed my betway account
Tove: Hi there Adam Picken
Tove: My name is Tove
Tove: How may I assist you today?
Adam Picken: I have no idea of when you did so, and have no idea about outstanding bets, what happened to my balance or anything
Adam Picken: I emailed a manager, and got told to contact live support when i requested a full history of bets and deposits/withdrawals
Tove: I will gladly have a look into your account and see what the reason could be.
Tove: Do you have a username?
Adam Picken: (Removed)
Adam Picken: I've been told it was closed due to the betting patterns
Adam Picken: that is fine, i couldn't bet much with you anyway
Adam Picken: but I have no way of finding out if you paid out my balance
Adam Picken: if my outstanding bets will be honoured
Adam Picken: etc
Tove: If you have bets still running they will be settled for you without any problems. Let me have a look at your withdraws, one moment please.
Adam Picken: Ok
Adam Picken: Could I get the approximate date of the last withdrawal to check it went through too?
Adam Picken: and a list of the outstanding bets
Adam Picken: Im not sure if there are any
Tove: I can see you still have 31.64 pounds on your account. You will be able to withdraw once your account has been activated,
Tove: You will need to send in documents to us to activate your account.
Tove: Please note that we require certain documentation from you to verify your account which will be reviewed by our operations department.
Tove: The following documents are needed:
Tove: A clear copy of your passport or driver’s license which will serve as photo identification.
Tove: Proof of address in the form of a utility bill or any other regular mail that is posted to you not older than 3 months.
Tove:
Adam Picken: What!?!?1
Adam Picken: you closed my account with money in it
Adam Picken: without an email
Adam Picken: and were just going to keep the balance?!
Adam Picken: this is crazy
Adam Picken: absolutely mental
Adam Picken: your now asking me to verify an account you already closed
Adam Picken: why didnt the manager mention this yesterday when I eamiled
Tove: You have been emailed yesterday about your account being locked Adam.
Adam Picken: NO
Adam Picken: i emailed asking for information
Adam Picken: and then you told me it was closed
Adam Picken: The managers email I used included absolutely no useful information
Adam Picken: but said contact live support if you have further queries
Adam Picken: Good job I did eh
Tove: I can see it must be confusing to you. Although, In terms and conditions it says we have the right to cancel your account at any time without notifying you.
Adam Picken: And keep my balance unless I enquire?
Adam Picken: even when I emailed your manager made no mention of it
Adam Picken: So i need to email verification documents to what email?
Adam Picken: And I want a full account history, every bet every deposit and every withdrawal
Adam Picken: Can I get that?
Adam Picken: hello?
Adam Picken: Tove?
Tove: Yes, I am here, I can send that through to you Adam. I can email it to you.
Adam Picken: Thanks a lot, I am sorry if I have taken my frustration out on you, I know you didn't write the policies and you have actually been useful, so I do apologise
Tove: you can send the documents to support@betway.com.
Tove: No problem Adam, I understand you too.
Adam Picken: OK great, is there anything else I should know?
Adam Picken: Just to confirm, proof of address/ID emailed to support@betway.com and you are sending the history to my email?
Tove: We are busy attending to your query, please hold for a minute. Thank you.
Tove: Yes, that is correct:)
Adam Picken: Great thanks a lot Tove, find some better employers and have a nice day!"

Seemed like a good lad overall, but what a horrible horrible firm. Its amazing to me the extent they've gone to here, its a distinct possibility they'd have got my £ if arbboy hadn't posted, because with being so limited I rarely check the account. So so sneaky, and the managers email is as per usual the most useless thing ever.

Got some money left in youwin, please tell me there aren't rumors about them too.

For balance, they did pay out on Niceofyoutotellme, in the Cambridgeshire :D

Given who owns Betway now I'm not surprised they have zero interest in running an actual bookies - it'll just be an acquisition stream for the casino.

In reality almost certainly not but the problem is that it could and if, for example, you followed one of the Betting Emporium tipsters, or put a bet on for a friend that was also getting the same bet elsewhere there is a good chance that they refuse to pay you on the basis of this.  As I mentioned yesterday most firms have some kind of rule that can work like this.  If I recall correctly Ladbrokes have a rule barring you from acting as a syndicate which could also be very loosely used but the key difference with Betway seems to be how they are applying it.  It is unreasonable and unfair and they do appear to be applying it just to get out of paying.  

This was posted on the Betfair forum two days ago by holloway (an 11 year member):

I opened an account with them in July because I noticed they were 16/1 about Barrow winning the conference north, I tried for £100 at the 16/1 they layed me £20 and then knocked it straight into 11/1, I only tried tonight to log onto my account for the first time since placing the bet  after reading this thread and was unable to logon, so I phoned them to be told my account has been closed and my £20 stake will be refunded in the next few days, it' seems a coincidence that Barrow are top of the league and are now 11/10 to win it, I complained how can they close my account after having one bet that wasn't even settled and if I never contacted them tonight they probably wouldn't of even give me my money back, I think this is unacceptable and this firm shouldn't even be allowed to trade.

So four months after they take the bet they decide to cancel it and if the thread wasn't there he still would be in the dark that his account was closed.

Oh my, now that is bang wrong, & completely indefensible.

I get very uncomfy when the mob get out on the streets with their pitchforks (see 'Stars), but even I can't defend this.

By definition, they could do that with ANY bet that looks like winning?

I saw an advert for a motor vehicle on eBay today.

It was priced at £2953. The description said "No haggling, must make exact price, no test drives".

As someone that has worked on both sides of the counter I generally feel a bit uncomfortable with a lot of the anti bookmaker stuff.  As a bookmaker you have to protect your profits and sometimes that involves making decisions which promote your self interest over that of some punters but there is also a huge responsibility on the part of operators to protect the integrity of the "game" overall and doing some of the stuff that firms like Betway do isn't only bad for punters it is actually intrinsically bad for other operators too but the problem is that nobody will stand up and put their head above the paraphet.  There have been attempts in the past to organise a punters association and, like the poker players associations, they generally fail through apathy and most fo the operators are too myopic to get involved.

How can the gambling authorities allow a t&c that states they can close accounts without informing the account holders. Do they bother to check these things? Some of these rules are really really scary and the post about Barrow is just crazy.

The regulators have no interest in helping and protecting punters.  If you look on the Gambling Commissions website they have a pdf which explains what they do and on the second page it has this:

"We don't resolve customer complaints.   Operators who hold a Gambling Commission licence must have
procedures for handling customer complaints and arrangements for
disputes to be referred to an independent third party"

For UK bookmakers that "independent third party" is IBAS and IBAS's funding comes from SIS who are the "one ordinary member".  SIS's main business is the provision of pictures and info to the betting industry but if you look at the shareholders of SIS it is like a rollcall of major UK bookmakers.  Ladbrokes own 23%, Hills own 19.5% Fred Done owns about 13% in total so it is hard to argue that the "independent third party" is actually independent at all.  It is all wholly unsatisfactory but as I mentioned above nobody really seems to do anything about it.

Red, is there a list of requirements that an operator has to fulfil to get a license do you know or is it just a case of fill in a form and pay a fee?

I don't think it is quite as simple as that.  Basically from what I can gather they have five main, and fairly broad, criteria (from their site):


    1.identity and ownership – the identity of the applicant and or person(s) relevant to the application and or, in the case of an application for an operating licence, who ultimately owns a corporate applicant.
   2. finances – financial and other circumstances of the applicant, past and present, and or person(s) relevant to the application. For operating licences this will include the resources likely to be available to carry out the licensed activities.
   3. integrity – the honesty and trustworthiness of the applicant and or person(s) relevant to the application.
   4. competence – the experience, expertise, qualifications and history of the applicant and or person(s) relevant to the application.
    5. criminality – criminal record of the applicant and or person(s) relevant to the application.

You can definitely argue that in situations like this that a firm like Betway are in breach of points 3 and 4 but I get the sense that it isn't something that is ever really brought up.  The default seems to be that licensing hearings are held in private which doesnt really promote transparency.  I have, in the past, had some dealings with the Gambling Commission and I would have very little confidence that they really understand the industry and have a sense of very much other than the key policies dictated by government so I would think that their focus is really on things like ensuring firms aren't used to launder money, preventing under age gambling (I honestly think they spend 30%+ of their time on this), preventing criminals getting licenses etc etc.  These are obviously very noble and important goals but they do nothing to protect and represent the millions of ordinary punters that are betting every day.

 Punters need representation that can lobby on their behalf, represent their interests in licensing hearings and just generally work hard to ensure that their interests are served and hold firms to account.  If Betway thought that cancelling a bet 3 months after it was placed for the sake of 300 quid might lead to someone opposing their license then they might think before doing it for example and there are lots of other things that punters could do but it involves coming together and being organised and having some people that are willing to put some time into it.  Maybe something worth having an offline discussion about?

The Barrow bet mentioned is theft, pure and simple, in my eyes.  One bet placed for £20.  And they've just voided it halfway through the race.  Just flat out fraud.

They've just gone "best price" 25/1 Rajdhani Express in Saturday's PPGC ante-post book. Generous to a fault except for the fact that it's a non-runner.

Ha!

Imagine backing that for £20, & then finding they close your Account as the bet can't lose.

The bet can't win as it's an ante-post market, non-runner you lose.

Amazing scenes here. Bit surprising to see this sort of thing go on these days.

They seem to make a habit of ringing customers. I got a call while I was at a Posh match, which seemed to be a general enquiry as to whether I was happy with using them. It came days after I'd tried for a second bet, which was restricted to pence after one bet one loser.

Think the Guernsey coup was with them? £50 free bet. Might ping them to ask if I can cash out for entertainment value.

There were a couple of others too, best not to discuss any more in case the crooks are watching.

Barrow bet seems like outright theft. Been banned for 5 bets that all lost, it appears they are run by my bank manager ;)

They had an advert during the england game coverage. The way they were going I thought it was the spiral usually followed by closure but doesnt appear to be the case.

Is there a gap in the UK betting market for an ethical bookie who will take all action?

The number of time now you hear of many people losing an account (s) and having difficulty getting on makes you think if you could secure the backing and their must be interested investors in it because a solidly run company not refusing the action must still be in with a big % chance of winning?

I think there is a gap in the market for a firm that takes huge volume and keeps a small margin but the big issue is that for a year or two they won't make any money and will likely lose a fair chunk and it is a fairly high risk investment to start up.  Ultimately I guess you could argue that Betfair already fills that role in the UK.  I'd be fairly surprised if it ever happens in the UK now and even if someone did it their options in terms of an ultimate exit are fairly limited as it isn't really a business for the stock exchange etc as the market doesn't really 'get'  businesses in this sector there unique IMO.  In many ways that has been Betfairs biggest issue since listing. 

Do not have an account at Betway so no personal experience but some of the stories I have read here and elsewhere seem nothing short of disgusting, and gives the whole industry a very bad name.

However, the reason for my post is that I have just seen today that Alan Alger who has been tipping non league for Betting Emporium has joined Betway as 'Sporting events and media Relations manager. (Thought it must have been a joke  when first saw the tweet) Was surprised that someone, who I presume is well respected within the industry would go and work for a bunch of charlatans/cheats, but I guess the poor guy has a mortgage to pay.

Can the BE boys shed any light, does this mean that he will try and sort out/rectify some of the organisations very dubious practices?

i wondered where his midweek column was this week.  I assume he won't be posting for BE any more as it would be a conflict of interests. 

Posted on BE by Alan.  Hopefully we can get some confirmation that Betway are not going to rob us blind.

Farewell

Last week I took a role with Betway to be their Sporting Events & Media Relations manager. The terms of my contract will prevent me from posting previews and (understandably) tipping up prices with rival bookmakers on Betting Emporium. This is an expected sacrifice for a full-time role.

It's been a strange start to the season and while I am delighted that I leave all followers in profit, it's also frustrating that you experienced one of my worst periods since I've been tipping on this league, around one month ago. I'll still be posting my views on Twitter (@Alan_Alger_), and of course those with the right idea will no doubt seek out the best price without me pointing them in the right direction.

I'd like to thank Betting Emporium (Joe and Neil) for the vote of confidence in allowing me to post here and I wish them every success for the future - you don't need me to tell you how good the site is, but the work put in when selecting the bets is second to none across all of the sports.

As for Betway... There was a degree of bad press just before I joined and obviously the guys at Betting Emporium have decided to remove them from the site. I intend to open up a dialogue between Neil/Joe and the team here so that some progress can be made. As I type this from their extremely nice offices in Camden I can assure you that some of the wilder theories on Twitter were extremely wide of the mark. That's not to say there aren't a number of issues with the Ts &Cs - written primarily from a background in casino, and which we will want to adapt ASAP for UK punters to create a much fairer product. Watch this space.

All the best,

Alan.

I intend to open up a dialogue between Neil/Joe and the team here so that some progress can be made

That HAS to be a good thing, talking about problems is the only way to solve them. Many of the issues could have been resolved, one way or another, if there was a 2 way dialogue.

It's rarely as black & white as it appears in a one way conversation. On the face of it, some of the things looked really bad. On the face of it.

You've got yourself a tough gig there Alan, bit like a 'Stars or Amaya rep right now. ;) I know the feeling, too, after years of abuse in my job Next Door. Just being honest & polite, & explaining things openly, solves a lot of problems though.

Good luck.

PS - I have "Followed" you on Twitter now. Love that photo at the top of your home page.

Pretty precarious situation. I see the possible outcomes as:

a) Alan succeeds in effecting change, Betway stop stealing balances, cancelling in running bets and closing accounts without telling the account owner
b) The boardroom has no appetite for change and Alan becomes a highly credible whistleblower as someone employed in a senior capacity at the company
c) The boardroom has no appetite for change but Alan keeps working for the company anyway

There are a couple of precedents for this:

Joe Sebok joined UltimateBet to fight for the players from the inside. He chose option c.
Lots of high profile online players (Melanie Weisner probably the most well known) joined Lock Poker to 'untangle the mess'. They all chose option c too.

I guess we'll see where we are this time next year

Thanks to Alan for his work at BE, its the first year that I've been following the conference and its been a great sweat. Clearly a shrewdie, best of luck effecting the changes you'd like to see made at Betway.

Lol, that's exactly the type of thing all the employees at Enron said, Alan!

Wow, just got off the live chat after a withdrawal of mine went awry (I decided to withdraw everything [about £100] a few weeks ago and not bet any more with them).

Luckily I had made a note to check for this withdrawal (I never normally do this-you just expect the bookies to process it alright, don't you?) and nothing had come through, despite me sending the docs and them being happy with them.

So I log in and see that there are no withdrawals pending and no withdrawals in my history. Account balance 0.

The guy on the chat says that there was a problem paying back to my card as Betway's processor rejected it! Well, thanks for not telling me about this (which I complained about). He admitted that they had messed up and said they'd pay it directly into my Bank account instead.

I urge everyone to check that their withdrawals are being processed. But if you don't remember your account balance it won't show anywhere if my problem happens to you, luckily I noted the amount I was expecting - will be interesting to see if it tallies!

Have made a few withdrawals totaling just over 1K over the last month or so.

For balance, all have been paid into my account, though they did drag their heels a bit.

Still not going to use them now until I hear positive reports regarding t&cs and non-scamming.

Good luck to Alan, will be interesting how much clout he has.

Hi guys, took me a while to sign up, but I wanted the full facts behind the cases mentioned before I came on here.

I've posted responses on some of the notable cases from social media and forums below... But I'll start by reiterating my commitment to work with the teams here at Betway and those from outside affiliates to tighten up Ts and Cs to make them relevant and fair to the Sportsbook market. All points have been taken on board and noted and there has been an admission that some were heavy handed or offered far too broad a brush to bash certain customers with if disputes occurred.

I've already been on to the Betfair forum where I posted on a thread - my response subsequently deleted by Betfair although they let the criticism remain on the site.

One of which was the post from Holloway which Joe B posted here.
I have looked into this account and it's very disappointing to see that this guy has been entirely economical with the truth.
There are notes posted all over the account stating "Client was reassured a number of times that 16/1 Barrow bet will stand and any winnings will be returned to the account".
Why he is posting that his bet was cancelled I do not know (I've seen it on the system, next to mine). There was an issue with the account - which for DP purposes I can't go into here - but at NO time was this bet cancelled or voided.

I've also noticed a number of people stating that first withdrawals are taking a while - on deeper investigation it seems a number of those people have just been reluctant to go through the standard KYC (know your customer) procedure that our licensing requires. Yes I know it's a pain to photocopy passports/licences etc. But it's a real extension of reality to say that it's Betway avoiding paying the money. Where genuine cases of slow payments or (in one case here) change of payment method has occurred - I've been told that policies will be tightened up to ensure the customer is informed at all stages.

The more far fetched posts that the money is running out (or doesn't exist) perpetuated by one punter whose account was blocked for entirely different reasons would be made to look silly with one visit to our offices. Of course genuine concerns when we see some companies go out of view holding cash from punters - but it's probably worth looking here to gauge some scale: https://thebetwaygroup.com/about/

Things are certainly not perfect, but there is a willingness from top to bottom to resolve all of the issues that came to light in the last few weeks AND I would hope that will eventually mean a return to being an affiliate on BE and elsewhere as well as a trusted firm to place your bets with.

Any other questions please let me know and I will do my best to look into them.

All the best,

Alan.

Thanks for the response Alan.  I have had several withdrawls processedfine and in line with usual industry timescales from betway before having my account closed for losing.  You are obviously a very 'rec' based book and will close accounts unless you are totally square.  It's pretty clear you don't want any remotely sharp punters which is fine if that is your company's stance but i am pretty sure this hasn't helped your company's PR in the past.  Given your management team below which is just a bunch of accountants there seems very little flair in the firm's senior management so this 'bean-counting' stance seems to fit.

https://thebetwaygroup.com/management/

Nice to know the ante post bets i have had will be paid though when they win next year.

GL with the new role and ty for your tips on BE this season.