blonde poker forum

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558655-a320-down-southern-france.html


(http://cdn1.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2014/4/20/390841.jpg)

Watching it on sky news now, very sad. 

Very sad as with all plane crashes.

I currently fly with Lufthansa about 6 times a month on an A320. Next flight on Thursday. Gulp!

A320 flight for me on Thursday too :(

Crash pilot 'locked out of cockpit'.

Bloody Hell. That must have been a scary 8 minutes.




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32062278

Makes it almost certain suicide I guess. Very sad.

Or the guy in the cockpit became incapacitated for some reason, maybe?

If it does turn out to be suicide, is this better or worse for the industry than mechanical failure as a cause?

Worse. They can do positive things to prevent mechanical failure.

Better, but get your drift.

Easier to solve if is is suicide than a problem with the aircraft. You can't stop suicide, of course, but access to the cockpit is sortable. 

They key to that is that since 9/11, the cockpit doors have to be locked at all times. Apparently, the cabin crew have a code with which they can unlock it, so that's a mystery as to why they never, or were unable to.

Looks like we have a split jury on that......

its better, though no less palatable for the families of the lost ones

you can sort out access/never leaving a single person alone in the cockpit etc

mechanical failures can ground fleets and affect the industry more imo

I read somewhere that there can be a bolt too.  Some airlines have a two in the cockpit rule.

There have been a few suicides over the years, allegedly.

They ruled out terrorism early, as usual, but it could be the indirect cause.  Or the "war on terror" is, depending where your sympathy's lie.

I'm 99% certain the door does not have a bolt.

The whole system revolves around being able to open it in an emergency. Which clearly failed this time, if the story is true.

Wouldn't being able to open it from the outside in an emergency defeat it's intended purpose though? i.e. terrorist forces someone on the outside to open it?

To a degree, yes, but they 100% DO have an system whereby Cabin Crew CAN open it in an emergency. Clearly not foolproof, but they have to have it, & they do, it's been regularly discussed on the PPRuNe thread, though you have to wade through 56 pages of techie talk to find it. 



http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france.html


PS - It is currently reported that Luthansa (the parent company of germanwings) categorically deny the "locked cabin door" theory, see Page 56 of that thread.

I think if it does turn out to be suicide, it is unquestionably far far worse for the families.

The senselessness and selfishness of a pilot killing himself in a way that kills 150 innocent people would be nearly impossible to reconcile in your mind.

I can even understand the misguided logic of an ISIS suicide bomber.

But never a pilot doing this.

Surely, surely, surely nobody would commit suicide and decide to take 150 other people with them.  I am struggling to come up with a more selfish action.  I wouldn't be able to get my head round it.

People do fucked up things sometimes.

I am always completely horrified when a story comes out about a father killing his children and then himself as revenge for his exwife leaving him.

But I am struggling to think of a worse case than a pilot killing his passengers.

It is 99% certain that pilot suicide was the cause of the Malaysian Airlines MH370 disaster, the one that has never (yet) been found, more than a year on. It disappeared, never to be seen again, on March 7th 2014. Everything points to pilot suicide.

If it turns out the pilot's motive was suicide, then he should have the right to end his own life.  But if that is the case, he's also guilty of the murder of 150 innocent people.  As Gramps said, there's a perverse logic to suicide bombers and those that hijacked the planes on 9/11, but it'd be baffling for someone who just wants to end his own life murdering 150 people as collateral damage.

I've been called a lot of things in my time, but "Gramps" is a new and unfortunate one :(

It won't be long now, Keith.

it has been confirmed

Co-pilot refused to open the cockpit door for the pilot on Germanwings plane, prosecutor says

http://www.thelocal.fr/20150326/pilot-locked-out-of-cockpit-before-germanwings-crash

Apparently there is an emergency code to get into the cockpit if the pilot becomes incapacitated.

But if he can over ride this and not let anyone else in if he is conscious

Ghastly news.

From PPRuNE

They have the last 30 minutes of the flight on the CVR.
 Conversation between pilots was normal - "cheerful"
 After about 20 minutes, captain runs through landing procedure.
 Co-pilot's responses to this are described as "laconic"

The co-pilot was left alone in the cockpit.
Co-pilot heard operating FMS to select altitude - can only be a deliberate act.
 Hear captain using the interphone to request access to cockpit.
 No response.
 Banged on door.
 Sound of breathing inside cockpit (continues until the impact).
 Marseille ATC calls heard - no response from co-pilot.
 

I was reading elsewhere that most airlines have a rule that there must be 2 people in the cockpit at all times.

But Lufthansa does not have this rule.

I'm not sure that's true, Keith.

Most short haul flights only have 2 crew in the cockpit, but short haul can be long enough to need a wee, or even a number two on occasion. It's unthinkable they would not able to attend to an urgent call of nature, & it'd actually be dangerous to deny them that, as it'd affect their concentration.

Maybe they were getting longhaul and shorthaul rules confused.

You are both right, on quite a few airlines a FA will enter the cockpit in place of a pilot who is using the toilet/stretching legs.

People in major depressive episodes are going to be more self obsessed than when they are functioning normally?  Their state of mind is so altered they aren't really thinking of the people they kill, just how to end their own lives?  I guess suicide bombers are similar in that becoming a martyr overrides the fact they might kill an innocent child.

All this assuming it was a suicide.

What is an FA?

Scrub that, realised  while typing.

As you were.

Think the correct terms are......

"Pilot" = Captain

"Co-Pilot" = First Officer

"Stewards & Stewardesses" - Flight Attendants

The co-pilots Facebook page, (shared with his wife) according to a Post on PRRuNe, is titled......


Soutien à Andreas Lubitz, héro de l'Etat Islamique




https://www.facebook.com/pages/Soutien-%C3%A0-Andreas-Lubitz-h%C3%A9ro-de-lEtat-Islamique/431945353632095?sk=info#!/pages/Soutien-%C3%A0-Andreas-Lubitz-h%C3%A9ro-de-lEtat-Islamique/431945353632095?sk=info&tab=page_info


It may be a rogue Post on PPRuNE, of course.

It's extremely rare for a suicidal person to do something that will kill a large number of people (again, the suicide bombers are an exception as they have a number of motives - murder being one as well as martyrdom).  There are the cases of people killing themselves and their family, but again there's usually some misguided logic there somewhere.  There are those who carry out mass murders, and then kill themselves - but again that's a different scenario.

Can't ever recall reading about a pilot, train driver, bus driver, etc., intentionally killing themselves and all their passengers?

we've now had malaysia, ukraine, russia, algeria and german wings in a reasonably short space of time

i was listening to a "Professor of Risk" at Oxford U explaining that such bunching of crashes can occur randomly within the overall distribution of events which is an incident once every 2.4m flights or so, at a rate that has been falling for 20 years plus

how would you explain best to a layman more concerned about flying today than he was 48 hours ago?

That's 1.01 to be fake IMO.

Probably, yes, some sicko probably just created it.

It is at least 99% certain that MH370 was caused by pilot siuicide.

There's more than you'd think

http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/22/list-of-aircraft-accidents-caused-by-pilot-suicide/

There was also a Tube crash at Moorgate in the 1970s in which, without I think ever actually saying it was suicide, the report effectively ruled out any other cause other than the driver deliberately driving into the end of the tunnel.

Not that I expected anything different... All flags at half mast at Frankfurt airport. Very eerie and sad.

(http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww270/bobalike/374927248d3d70d756acd59161790f2f_zps2drqv3ev.jpg)

Yeah, a few on there that I hadn't heard about. 

Really sad, so many needless deaths.

Do people think that this could really be something due to depression? It seems not possible in my eyes that as deep and as bad as depression may get that you forget about the passengers on the plane. Surprised that nobody has mentioned about he only had 600 hours flying time.

What an absolute terrible loss of so many lives, absolutely awful.

The mind does not think "normal" when depression sets in.

Not sure 600 hours equates to "only" either. Thats the equivelant of 60 flights to Las Vegas from London. His experience was in short haiul, average flight time 2 hours, so maybe 300 flights. That's plenty, 300 take offs, 300 landings. I don't see a shred of evidence that he was anything but completely competent to fly that 'plane.

The problem would be his altered mental state, not his flying ability.

But whatever, yes, it's all very sad for everyone involved. His family must be in a terrible spot, too.

I'm not saying the 600 hours are potentially saying he's less able, what I am saying is that maybe he has been planning this crash for sometime, only 600 hours in and went straight for a job. Is it possible that it was his first time in the cockpit alone?

Some horrendous stories though. A father rushed to the airport to give his son his passport that his son had forgot, made in time to give him the passport and he was on the doomed flight. I can not begin to imagine how he must feel or if he can ever cope with that

Wish that the media would stop using the word suicide.  Its mass murder.

Also was on an A320 today - again the media are saying that the passengers would have been unaware of what was happening until the last few seconds.  If the pilot really was trying to force the door then there is zero chance of them not beimg aware of it.

My mind is truly boggled by this!

Not sure what the solution is either. Leave the cockpit locked to prevent crazies gaining control of the plane or leave it open to prevent crazies gaining control of the plane??

Flew to Dallas this week and when the captain came over the tannoy it was a woman. First time I have ever heard a woman captain! But it was strangely reassuring! I thought to myself this is the answer! Only let women fly planes. Yet having checked out the stats women are statistically twice as likely to suffer from clinical depression than men! So only let men fly planes. Who knows what the answer is? What a head fuck!

Had a woman pilot once. Flight was great. Took her two hours to park though.

A woman's brain is far more naturally suited to being a pilot, they crush us men in the aptitude tests (on average, multitasking)

Agree.

:D

It seems 99% certain this was suicide, do you get annoyed when people say the term suicide bomber? 

Guess it would be easier if there was an equivalent term like suicide murderer.  Though even that is difficult, as without access to his thinking at the time, we don't really know if he was a suicide murderer or suicide manslaughterer.

If someone guns down a group of school kids and then turns the gun on themselves, it's termed as mass-murder - sometimes with the additional tag of murder-suicide. 

No matter what the motivation was for this pilot's actions, he knew he was killing 150 people - and that's murder, surely?

If a bloke jumps of a bridge and a motorist dies then I have some sympathy that he didn't mean to put someone elses life in danger and it's "suicide manslaughter" or whatever we want to call it.   If you deliberately crash a plane into a mountain then you almost 100% know you are ending the lives of the passengers in the back.  It's mass murder.

diminished responsibility tho so it's not murder right?

Well as I look at it now, assuming that he survived, diminished responsibility would look a possible on the news leaking out.  It seems an easier argument to make than to claim this wasn't suicide.

Suicide and murder aren't mutually exclusive, I think this is what people are missing here. 

Do we say it's not murder when there is a school mass shooting in the US and then the gunman kills himself?   Surely they have diminished responsibility as well in that case.

It's a short haul flight - he's made a decision to involve the passengers rather than end it all before or after the flight.  He's a murderer in my eyes, irrespective of how the court might view it technically.

I see the media have started their stigmatisation of depression already :(

So it was suicide then, and it is ok for the media to use that term?

Watched the BBC 1 o clock news and they referred to it as mass murder

I don't really understand your point.  I'm fine with them using the word suicide as long as they focus on the fact that he murdered 150 people at the same time.

This story is so sickening to be fair feel sorry for the families.

Some of the reports are surely not giving you the truth? The plane is constantly descending & surely passengers must realise by simply looking out of the window? Not to mention that when the pilot is trying to knock the door down, they must realise?

Yet there is numerous media stories telling us that they only knew at the very last moment. I think they most have been worried in the last few minutes...

Just seen on the news about he's also been previously treated for depression

Not relevant. If he'd previously been treated for cancer, you wouldn't consider that to be a causal factor. Depression doesn't cause the sort of irrational thinking that leads to ploughing a plane full of people into a mountain. There are other mental health issues that could cause that sort of behaviour, but Depression is a red herring here.

Unless you were sat very near the front you would have had no clue, until the Captain started making a lot of noise/trying to break the door down. The decent to crash all happened in 8 mins, give Captain 2 mins for his toilet break/chatting up stewardess this leaves 6mins max of anyone having a clue, I'm guessing it took another couple of minutes before the Captain thought anything was wrong, plenty of other causes for not being able to open the door and the FO to not be able to open it straight away.

Media not telling the ugly truth? Surely not

Much as it pains me to say so, if ever there was a case of the Mail and Aaron telling the ugly truth this is it.

Males with a history of depression are massively over represented in the statistics for murder suicide.  Of course there is likely to be a nicer way of saying it than the way the Mail chooses (I haven't read their coverage at all), but that doesn't mean they haven't stumbled on the right conclusion. 

This isn't to say that people with a history of depression shouldn't be allowed to fly planes, the number of incidents like this are always going to be tiny.  And this doesn't mean that somebody with no documented history of depression is going to commit a murder suicide, just that they are significantly less likely to do so.

FWIW I dare say there isn't a similar link between cancer and murder suicide. 

Wasn't there a country which made it illegal to prosecute people who were terminally ill?

There quickly followed a crime wave from sick people.

It was a 1993 law in Italy giving immunity to people who had contracted AIDS.

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-08-28/news/mn-39765_1_aids-law

It wouldn't surprise me.

Back ariund the time I started work there was a period where people were able to apply for life insurance without given any medical details so long as the application was made in connection with a mortgage.  This meant the mortgage process was speeded up and the theory was that those people who were going to die soon wouldn't be applying for mortgages or buying houses.

The terminally ill were quick enough to spot that opportunity, and if they didn't see the opportunity, some financial advisors quickly worked out where they could find some easy sales.  

 

News outlets reporting that mobile phone coverage has been found videoing the last moments before the crash. Seems the passengers knew what was about to happen to them.

I hope that footage never gets leaked or shown.

It'll definitely get leaked at some point if it hasn't already. The blackbox audio and pictures have already been leaked as it is.

Hoped that these poor passengers had no idea of what was about to happen, but seems they must have known for a good few seconds or even upto a couple of minutes.

There's pictures of remains easily available on the Internet. If there is video's around, they won't be hard to get.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBfdcq8VEAAQxPI.jpg)

How has this been obtained?
Surely no one has unauthorised access to the crash site and I would have thought that anything recovered would be logged and kept securely,  so how do you end up with authorities asking journalists to hand over footage?
The mind boggles.

Money?

Because humans basically aren't decent?

Still, pretty sure this announcement was some sort of hoax. Trying to get link-baity/virusy on Facebook etc.

Yes, I know that people with stoop to any depths to make a quick buck, but I was naively hoping someone would pop up and say this story wasn't true rather than having to accept the thought that someone may have sifted through the wreckage and body parts for some poor souls phone to flog to an equally unscrupulous journo.  :(

Noticed your post after I'd sent mine Mulhuzz.
I do hope you're right so I can retain some faith in humanity.

Being a hoax would be better than there actually being footage that has been leaked?

Yes, because there are always mindless idiots about that make a mockery of even the most terrible situations,  they are easy to dismiss as the ignorant fools they are, but for someone in a position of trust, who is witnessing the horror first hand to coldly betray everyone involved is unforgivable to me.

I don't believe the story that this footage has been leaked, even if it exists.

Do you know, the more important my point is to me, the worse I am at wording it.
That last post looks like drivel.  

Looks like a decent explanation to me :)

These businesses that apparently have the video I have never heard of in my life, if they are big businesses then I can see no reason for them to try and make out they have a video, when in fact they don't.

However what might have been forgot in this is that this video might actually help in piece together what happened on the plane. I've read and seen many different things about what happened & a lot doesn't piece together. As I said earlier it seems (to me) that the passengers must have known they was in danger for more than the "last moments". The people investigating said they would have realised in the last moments, whilst transcripts said they knew for around 3 minutes that something wasn't right and this video must surely help?

If it turns out there is an actual video though, it will definitely be leaked. This stuff just has a habit of being leaked, somehow, sadly....

das bild is a huge newspaper bigger than anything we have in this country, although if you havent lived in germany you wouldnt have heard of it just like most of germany wont know about "the sun"

Why keep on about it? You need to be seriously deluded to think nobody had a clue what was going on as their plane decended from 30000ft to zero in 7 minutes. It's happened. It was horrific. It was an extremely isolated incident. Let's move on

I think you'll find it never went to zero.

Sorry for talking about this international news story, hopefully must try harder not to talk about things everyone else is talking about

I have no right to cull the general discussion, I just meant move on from the fact that those 150 people had 7 minutes of terror inflcited on them. we get it. Hmm maybe I just caught myself being an SJW so for that I should probably apologise.

Now, if you'd like to discuss the reasons why the media try to cover it up (prevention of societal mass histeria, protection of the commercial aviation industry  etc) that would be interesting. One of the most interesting conspiracies I've read is that of Airbus using this copilot as a scapegoat for the synonymous unreliability of the A320. But having heard the aleged bb recordings I'm more than a little sceptical of that

I haven't said they had seven minutes of terror inflicted on them, I am saying I do not believe all this about they knew at the very last moment, it seems quite evident that they knew a few minutes before it crashed. I am more worried why it's still being told like this by the media!

It's worrying all these incidents with planes, how long until a plane doesn't just kill the people on board, but instead is falling upon a city on a world and is about to cause mass devastation, either due to pilot or technical error?

I watched the Channel 4 programme that was on at 9pm earlier & what garbish that was, just making a programme out of pure paper talk. Suggestions of personality test every month too.... give me a break...

It's a tragedy, but I'm not sure that you aren't going a bit OTT with a statement like 'all these incidents'

I've always been under the impression that it's statistically the safest way to travel, and can't see how anything has changed.

It´s been the safest year in the history of air travel. Only 12 planes have come down, there has never been less and the pattern is clear, it gets safer every year.

@Aaron.

Just to clear this up.

The passengers WERE aware that there was a problem, this has been established beyond doubt. Those near the front could see the Pilot hammering at the door & shouting at the co-pilot, so those at the front knew 100% for sure. It was also established that the CVR recorded the sounds of the passengers screaming. It's likely the px became aware in the final 2 or 3 minutes of the flight.

It will cost you some time, but if the whole tragedy interests you, its well worth investing some time reading the thread on PPRuNe. Unforch, it runs to nearly 3,000 Posts, but once you sort the wheat from the chaff, & if you can read between the lines, you can form a good mental image of everything that happened. It is here...


http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france.html


That Forum is intended for use by Professional Airline Pilots & the like, so good info, though its clear many respondents are rubber neckers & not associated weith the Industry. The Media get 95% of their Airline & Aircraft stories directly from that Forum.

Maybe, if short of time, just read the last 20 or 30 pages.

I really do strongly recommend you take a look, all your questions are addressed fully there.

Sorry what?

The A320 is very reliable, if it wasn't it wouldn't be so popular.

If I'm sat in row 16 with my headphones on and my kindle out I wouldn't know anything was wrong until very near the end, the idea that i would know for minutes is very unlikely.

How on earth do you say that seriously. Have you literally never experienced g-force before? I'll tell you, if you do a near 45deg decent you are going to know about it. Do you sit there on take off and literally not even notice it?

In aviation, a very reliable plane and an utterly reliable plane are two very different machines. Note I'm not saying it's unreliable, as other noted sitting on a plane is quite literally one of the safest places you could ever sit. Just that in comparison to others with similar flight hours its fallen out of the sky more.

I would guess Flushy has some idea - he is a qualified Commercial Airline Pilot.

Safery Rates of two comparable aircraft - A320 & Boeing 737 - not much in it, arguably the A320 is slightly safer.



http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm

Both are incredibly safe, the safest high volume aircraft ever built according to most stats.

There have been 8,300 Boeing 737 variants built, & 6,400 Airbus 320 variants, one takes off, it is said, somewhere in the world, every 2 seconds.

(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/56834602.jpg)

:p

Will have to have a word with my American sources, there might be a little bias mixed in with the crossed wires :p

(http://newsalescoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/humblepie-e1288647520854.png)

Still don't understand James' argument though, does he work in media now? jk jk

I flew on a a320 two days after this crash. They are not very big inside. I was sat in row 28 (very back row) in the middle seat. You can clearly see cockpit door. It's really not that difficult. Was on the flight with Ryan, and we discussed how clear and easy it was to see.

Were the curtains drawn?

No.

It is 99% certain that pilot suicide was the cause of the Malaysian Airlines MH370 disaster, the one that has never (yet) been found, more than a year on. It disappeared, never to be seen again, on March 7th 2014. Everything points to pilot suicide.
[/quote]

That theory suggests it would have been the actualy pilot.

The pilot had no history of mental health issues, iirc there was nothing unusual in his life that would result in such an action. Think he also did a lot of charity work and was held in high regard by all who knew him.

Really had to see what would have made the pilot do this, given everything seemed quite ordinary with him.

I don't think it makes much difference whether you are aware of the situation for 5 mins, 3 mins or 30 seconds.  As soon as you see the pilot trying to smash the door down I'd imagine that your brain does things that makes those last few moments seem like an absolute eternity.

That theory suggests it would have been the actualy pilot.

The pilot had no history of mental health issues, iirc there was nothing unusual in his life that would result in such an action. Think he also did a lot of charity work and was held in high regard by all who knew him.

Really had to see what would have made the pilot do this, given everything seemed quite ordinary with him.



[/quote]

MH370? No, that's incorrect. Everything seemed normal in his private life, until they delved deeper.

They discovered, amongst other things, that he had a Flight Simulator at home, & had "practised" making his aircraft disappear, & fly on until it ran out of fuel & crashed in the most remote spot he could find.

It's all detailed in the thread below, if you don't mind wading through 11,756 Posts.....


http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/535538-malaysian-airlines-mh370-contact-lost.html

Arguably, it may not have been suicide as such - more likely "mass murder". (But I don't want to get into the difference).

I remember seeing a bit that he had been using a simulator, but couldn't remember anything being mentioned about what it was used for. Hopefully they can find the black box. 

From MH370?

They have to find the aircraft first. They have been searching for over a year, ships by the score, & not a sign of it yet.

Then, if they find it, x,000 metres down in the Indian Ocean, they have to find a way to get it to the surface. It'll be a miracle if the MH370 black box is ever found, & if it is, if it has survived immersion at great pressure for over a year.

Note though, neither of the 2 incidents we are discussing were down to aircraft faults.

"Data from the second 'black box' flight recorder belonging to the Germanwings plane that crashed in the Alps suggests that the co-pilot deliberately accelerated its descent, French investigators say.

They say Andreas Lubitz modified the automatic pilot system several times to increase the speed of descent.

The information they recovered also confirms earlier findings that Lubitz deliberately crashed the plane."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32173632

Does not compute.

POTY
That's just too good.
 ;applause;

Sigh :)