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26 years to the day , not strictly true cause past midnight , grates me somewhat.

Was there that day in the Forest end and obviously saw pre and post match a lot of what happened.

We all know the police made mistakes and then tried to cover it up .

Just can't get my head round it being all blamed on them though.

26 years have passed , still haunts me that fateful day  ,  where is one's own responsibility in all of this.

So many variables led to what happened and not all was  David Duckenfields fault , just for opening the gates.

Hate to get in such an emotive subject where 96 people lost their lives but  it does not sit comfortable with me

If the police and the Government had been honest and given precise details of what really happened at Hillsborough from the start, there wouldn't have been 26 years of campaigns, inquiries and protests.

People in charge made huge mistakes that day, but if they had held up their hands and admitted them from day 1, they would have been forgivable.

The disgusting attempts to deflect blame and avoid responsibility which have been going on for decades are the unforgivable part of the whole story.

Any such variables were ignored by "professionals" who's job it was to manage the day.

Nothing at all was majorly different from any other semi final in previous years. SYP and others didnt even learn from '88. It was mis-managed from the beginning.  The so called decison makers didn't have a clue, and when it began to go wrong and out of control, they compounded it all by making ill judged non thought out decisions.

What they did after was beyond any words i can think to describe.

I know that end of Hillsborough very, very well. Stood in that end and sat in the stand above with season tickets when home fans were using it in the 70's and early 80's.

If only the police had blocked entry to the tunnel to the central area and directed fans to the left and right then the disaster would have been avoided.

Tragic mistake and mismanagement.

Agree with u both but we still tend to ignore contributing factors.

To open the gates . Bad decision.

Liverpool  fans with no tickets . Bad decision

Liverpool fans , a minority , drunk . Bad decision .

Arriving late at the ground . Bad decision .

Herd mentality going through centre isle . Bad decision .

Not enough people in that section realising their actions would  cause injury/death to those innocents who had got there early to get a good position at the front. Bad decision.

More stewards and better stewarding around the 3 tunnels . Bad decision .

Loads of bad decisions led to that horrific day.

That's all I am saying .

The aftermath and cover up was shocking in the extreme and it's really depressing that people want to shift blame , lie , change witness statements ,  make excuses. What's wrong with holding you hand up and saying " I made a bad decision" and suffer the consequences.  

Yes I agree with you, although some of those points aren't seen as politically correct to mention.

Add the fencing and pens to the situation and it produced that horrendous outcome.

Contributing factors!?!?! Really.

If we say all the above were involved, the assumption must be the same for other games. Ticketless fans, minority drunk ones, ones arriving after KO.  The only difference then were the actions, decision making and planning of those in charge.

And sorry, to say opening the gate was a "bad decision" along with arriving late was a same and similar "bad decision" is shameful and ridic.

They lost control well before that rememeber. To try to get an acceptance of blame shared between SYP and a few worse for where, late fans is equally deploable.

I think you need to accept it was an avoidable event, and the only people to blame were those in charge.  I'm staggering it is even in doubt still.

The events are not in question. The blame neither.

Has it ever been estimated how many ticketless Liverpool fans were outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles that day before the gates were opened?

Although all the people were trying to get in the middle pen, from the tv pictures I saw the other 2 pens were pretty full too.

So clearly there were some people inside the ground without tickets, or else this tragedy would have happened years earlier at another big game.

Pens 1 and 4 around the build up were relatively empty if I recall correctly. That is my visiom and own memory

Never seen or heard a official figures around potential ticketless fans, but i see no reason why more would be around in '89 than '88.  Or any other semi final previous.

Events way before that didnt help things when it started to go wrong.

In no way am I victim or Liverpool fan blaming.

But there must have been a reason the gates were opened when they were never opened in all semi finals (and other big matches) played at Hillsborough before.

Logically there must have been a bigger crush at the Leppings Lane turnstiles than seen before. And there must have been a reason for this.

Did Liverpool fans arrive at the ground later? Were there traffic problems that day? Or were there more ticketless fans than ever before?

This should not be a politically correct debate.
But...
There were Contributing factors, all of them happen rightly or wrongly at every big
Game I attend both pre and post 89.
Late arrivals
Drunk Fans
Ticketless fans
The above still happens today.
We cannot blame Liverpool fans, they acted no differently to any other clubs fans.
The WYP must take the majority of the blame as they did act differently to other forces that policed
Football matches in the late 80s.
What grinds me still to this day is the deceit & lies after the event to protect a few people.

I never said you were blaming anyone, sorry if it came across that way.  However both the above post and opening post, by implying there were other factors on that day, different to other games, to me is implying the blame, whether all or in part, was on the actions of some of the fans on that day.

That is simply not true or  acceptable imo.  If SYP not only managed the game better, or not crimnally covered their actions up, it would have been completly difference.   Any discussion please remember about high number of drunk/ticketless, was all part of the cover-up spin the authorities did. Without all that crap, it wouldnt be part of the discussion.

Sooner they get sent down to rot, the better.

 Obviously the key "bad decision" was to open the gates.

I believe everyone would agree with this.

We do not know what would have happened if he had not done that and Mr Duckenfields preparation prior
 to the match left a lot to be desired , especially from a senior officer.

Every point I made about " bad decisions " is true. How much each individual one contributed to 96 deaths is almost
impossible to quantify. Some might be less than 1% but from what I saw that day the collective "bad decisions" all 
 had an effect , however small.

I simply couldn't disagree more.  Not one fan on that day, contributed to any of the 96 deaths no matter what "bad decision" they did or didn't make.  

It is like you're saying (in a less extreme way granted)  the butterfly wings flapping has an effect on the other side of the world theory.  By being they, doing whatever, they contributed to 96 deaths.

We are never going to agree (or rather I will not accept the points or argument stated) so with respect I'm not intending to read further, as I'll just more annoyed!

Like you I was in attendance on that day, but as a liverpool fan, so I think our versions will be very different.

Enjoy your day.

If you are saying the actions of the Liverpool fans that day had no effect on 96 people losing their lives then you are wrong. The combination of factors brought about the tragic consequences on that day. Not one single action is 100%
responsible for it. That is the truth.

We are all adults , we all have our own decisions to make and take responsibility for.

Enjoy your day too sir.

I am sorry i just can't agree with this. I understand you are a Lverpool fan and cannot be expected to be balanced and in no way would i seek to defend the police whose actions on the day and subsequently have been disgraceful

what bookiebasher says is correct though, by their behaviour some fans exacerbated the situation. Any fans of any club at the time would have done, most likely

My other half at the time was at the game, in the other end as a Forest fan, and it stayed with her since. Some of the things she described to me about the behaviour of a minority of fans on that day that she saw before the game were really eye-opening

as i say though, it wasn't atypical of football fans at the time

it has become almost completely unacceptable to question anything of the fans at Hillsborough, as if in some way that will detract from the police on the day and since. It doesn't at all 

100% acknowledge I'm 100% bias.  It is a very emotive subject for most involved.

I don't pretend to think the fans on the day were impeccably behaved, but they were, as you state yourself, no different to any other football fan of that era, and thus behaved no different (overall) than that of any other group in a similar game.  So by the very fact the situ happened, and in the manner it did, it was solely down to how the game was planned, actioned, implemented, and then the (wrong) decisions made by the (wrong) people in the (wrong) jobs.  Which again goes way back before the event itself.

If there was a hugely abnormal amount of drunks/ticketless/late fans arriving which caught the authorities by surprise, I'd argue then, it was and is the job of those in authority to plan for most reasonable scenarios. Drunk late football fans in the late 80's was expected at most big games I'd suggest.  It even happened 12months before.

I respect both you and bookie opinions and views of course, and I know 2 sides to most discussions, but I do struggle to be objective on this, which is my own downfall and fault I accept.

"If there was a hugely abnormal amount of drunks/ticketless/late fans arriving which caught the authorities by surprise"

that was the case wasn't it?

again, i am in no way defending the planning before, actions during and justifications afterwards

As adults we should accept responsibility for everything we do in life.

A gate has been opened , your decision to do what you want after that.

Now if your decision making is impaired by alcohol , the lateness of your arrival or just
the excitement of the game , why is it someone else is 100% to blame.

If it had been Forest fans at the wrong end and I was a part of the tragic events and managed
to survive I would feel I contributed in some way to the tragic events , however small my part in
it might have been.

I have never seen any contrition , just vitriol and blame.

So are you are saying - any fan who didn't have a ticket, that ran through the open gate to watch a game he hadn't paid to see, holds zero blame for the disaster?

BTW - If I was outside a ground and there was an open gate to a match I was desperate to watch, I would almost certainly pop through it to try and get a free look.

I don't "blame" any ticketless fans for running in, but we must accept at the bottom line, that was an illegal act.

Although equally, unless I lived 100 yards from the ground, I would not turn up for a match I didn't have a ticket for.

I'm not sure it was the case.  In terms of tickets the side pens at Hillsborough were relatively empty and the problem was everyone getting funnelled into the same middle pens?  Think you can see it on here. 
https://thegreatcritique.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/half-empty-wing-pen-14-46.jpg

"Like you I was in attendance on that day, but as a liverpool fan, so I think our versions will be very different."

That statement somewhat disappoints me. It does not matter who we were supporting and it should not
make a difference on our version of events.

96 people lost their lives , does not matter who they supported or where they came from .

That day haunts every human being who was there that fateful day. I do not feel any less sorrow for the
victims just because I was there supporting an opposing team.

Our versions are not very different because I support Forest , I can assure you.

Our versions are very different because I can see that it was a certain unique set of circumstances culminating in such large numbers losing their lives.

There were a number of fans without tickets , hard to put a figure on it , but I can remember being asked on numerous occasions walking to the ground if I had any spare tickets by Liverpool supporters , although that was pretty standard in any sell out game in those days.

What impact that had on the crush at the gates and whether it was premeditated one will never know.

Sorry to disappoint. But was i more meaning i see it from a less impartial view being a liverpool fan. I can't ever believe or will never accept in anyway that the whole thing was down to nothing other than a complete farce by authorities in the build up, planning and the day itself.

The stadia licence
Sheffield council
SYP
Duckenfield getting the job
His pre planning, or lack of it
Matchday planning
Day of match

I could go on and on. 

If they hadn't messed every aspect of the above (which isn't exhaustive) it would have so different.

I dare say (i wasnt at '88) it was similar situ, ticketless/late fans in that year and in other years.

Inquiries, reports, from Taylor to HIP all revolke any blame whatsoever on the fans at the game.

I think the key bad decision was not blocking the entry to the tunnel to the central pen.

There is a big open area inside the area behind the gates, the police could have stopped (or at least tried) to stop fans going into the central area. The entry to the tunnel by its nature is small and could have been blocked.

Opening the gates was not the key bad decision for me.

FFS, there's some fucking appalling comments on this thread from people I'd expect far better from.

Seriously, blaming drunk fans without tickets for the death of the 96. You turn up at any football match, rock concert, or any other public gathering and those in charge have a responsibilty. It's like blaming the Bradford fans for not exciting the ground sensibly because they'd had a drink or two, or had entered without a ticket.

There were more drunken and ticketless fans at that match than other FA Cup semi finals?

Show me that evidence.

There were other semi finals of the FA Cup played at grounds that were deemed unsuitable like Hillsborough was?

I think that's  a terrible comparison .

can't see where anybody has "blamed" drunken Liverpool fans without tickets .

it really is not about blame , it's about contributing factors towards the deaths of 96 people. Not one event caused their deaths. It was a set of circumstances unique to Hillsboro .

hate to say this but you sound to me like a guy who hasnt been on away days with the lads that many times. Obv everyone has a few beers and thoughts and decisions are compromised. even after knowing what happened i still can't honestly say that if i was there i wouldnt have gone str8 down the centre like most did. If i was down there for the day out without a ticket, and the gates opened i would have thought all my xmas's had come at once and gone in there without a ticket. (never gone to a game without a ticket ever)

have to add ive watched every docu on the subject, as a wednesday fan ive been to hillsborough hundreds of times. I think the only thing that caused the disaster was stewards not directing fans to the correct sections once the middle one was full. I saw a while back the alcohol consumption of the deceased and it actually shocked me that only a small minority had more than adequate alcohol levels.

I think people's judgement of what happened  has been tainted by the subsequent police
cover up and it's all guns blazing , 100%  their fault .

You can go with that view , I was there and you are 100% wrong.

I'm not into confrontation , trolling , whatever you want to call it , it's 26 years ago.

I personally want to say what I saw and what I believe we're causal effects of 96
innocent people losing their lives.

Very very sad day , and very sad that people do not own up for there own failings.

Would you have felt any responsibility towards the deaths of 96 people  ?

Been on plenty of away days , know the score , that's why I know why it was not 100%
the police's fault.

Well, the majority of the deceased will have got in early and were at the front of the terrace and hadn't been on the lash all lunchtime before the game.

I've been reading accounts and reports all day, and it seems like the number of ticketless fans was a lot smaller than I assumed. (Taylor called ticketless fans an exacerbating factor, not a contributory factor) Guess I've been brainwashed by all the lies and cover ups from the last 25 years.

However, the one fact I couldn't find out was why the crush outside the turnstiles was so intense on this occasion that the police decided to open the gates.

Hillsborough had been holding big matches for decades previously with sell out crowds. (At the 1981 semi final, there were huge traffic james on the M1 delaying Spurs fans for their semi final v Wolves. Many arrived late. Yet the crush wasn't bad enough to open the gates. Once inside there was a crush in the central pen leaving dozens requiring hospital treatment)  What made the crush at Leppings Lane so different that day to any of the previous sell out crowds?

In fact you comments support my arguments , have a beer , go with the flow , authorities will look
after us , regardless of our actions . They should look after us however we behave.

That's what's wrong with society . As I said in a previous post , if that had happened at the Forest end
I would have had a sense of guilt/responsibility at my role in proceedings that day .

We had a min-bus that day , had a few beers pre match , normal  behaviour  , got to the ground late.

Sounds familiar .

Just wow.

I don't want to appear controversial having very rarely posted on Blonde but I have enjoyed
many hours reading threads on here.
I think some comments on here from bookie should have been deleted.
Imo His opening post wasn't out of line, I do think that his last few replies have
been disgraceful & from what I have read on Blonde appear to be totally
out of character from him
Obviously having been at the game he has a strong opinion on the subject.
I also believe that as a Moderator tightend has let himself down & I feel gave licence
to bookie to further the argument to apportion blame to supporters of Liverpool FC.
It is ridiculous to try and quantify how much ticketless fans, late arrivals & alcohol
consumption was to blame for the deaths of 96 innocent victims.
As I said earlier all these are part of a football supporters daily life.
I have been to games without a ticket, with my Sons who are 15 & 21 both have been going
to Leeds with me for years, my youngest lad supports Chelsea & we have been
loads of Northern clubs & got tickets at the ground, places like Blackburn, Bolton, Sunderland.
If I arrived at a game late due to traffic or a few pints In the pub I would not expect anyone to
point the finger of blame at me for the deaths of my fellow supporters.
You might say I've proved your argument as you did of trigg but I'd say this is the real world & you
need to step into it.  
No Liverpool fans were to blame, read the latest report if you don't believe me, it is quite conclusive.

I can't agree with that.

He has expressed his view, politely & sincerely.

He has acknowledged that the great majority of the blame sits with the authorities. He just thinks that, in his honest view, the actions of some fans may have contributed to the tragedy. Even if it is only a 1% contribution, it is still a contribution.

It's all terribly emotive, more so for Liverpool fans. That does not mean that genuinely held views cannot be aired.

Tighty let himself down? You may think so, but his replies appeared to be well-balanced, from what I saw. Again, sincerely held views, put respectfully & politely, & acknowledging that the authorities actions were disgraceful.

It seems to be one of those subjects where people are scared to speak their mind, because when they do, it is seen as disrespectful. 

Bookiebasher, as stated previously Taylor, HIP and any other report states very clearly it was authorites at fault. 

Daniel has put it perfectly and better than i have, and more direct as i was pussy-footing around trying to not to get wound up or become more abusive.

Your opening post and subsequent discussions genuienly played on my mind all day and I only hope now other comments are being made you'll see sense

He has not denied that, in fact he has agreed with it.

He just thinks that it was not 100% their fault.

Which those reports state it does entirely sit with authorities. I don't believe he does agree, and his comments are wrong and insulting

I knew I would probably get some stick , the debate has gone ok , respect everyone's opinion.

The real world was far different at football matches in those days.

Far more tribal and aggressive from what you see today.

If I hadn't been there and witnessed those events pre and post match I doubt I could
comment on it with such certainty.

I have tried not to get into the "blame" game , it's negative and not the point I was making.

It really was a unique set of circumstances and many many events pre match led to that
situation where he had a very difficult decision to make in regards to opening the gate.

Hi, I'll reply too

I don't think i let myself down

I posted a few times on the thread with opinions. My posting some agreement with bookiebasher 24 hours ago does no more or less to legitimise his views than anyone else does. I'm posting as an individual

People are entitled to disagree with them, as you have done.

Even better, you could stick some links up that prove i'm wrong. Happy to read them. 

there's nothing on this thread worthy of deletion imo. In fact the issue hasn't even been raised amongst the mods.

its a terribly difficult subject where the debate on here has been civil.

Waz  , I understand it has played on your mind all day . It has played on my mind for 26 years.

I accept your opinion and we obviously disagree on a very sensitive issue. I did not want to insult  anyone and have
chosen my words carefully.

Just because I do not agree with the majority does not mean I have "to see sense".

I have to be true to myself and say what I believe and what I saw that day..

Your ignorance and views played on my mind, so OK I'll bite as you've mentioned it twice now; what did you see on that day around the ground, that you've never seen before at a big game that gives you the opinion you have still 26years later which is against all known facts by legal minds, witnesses, reports and inqueries etc etc, where you still think a number of fans on the day actually phyiscally contributed towards 96 deaths.

It is beyond belief people who say they have an understanding beyond the headlines can still have such views

I am really trying to not go over the line as i respect Tikay and Tighty and Blonde.

Going to the stadium on the day of an incident makes us an expert? Or chatting to someone who went? "I went (or knew someone who did) so I know its a fact" is what's being stated. By two liked and respected people.

I didn't go, but I'd encourage readers to follow the facts (and in the reports more recently coming out, they are facts) that the police and their cover up is the issue, the major issue and the only issue here. Being sat at the other end having been asked for spares by scousers who've had a few apparently means more to some.

If the posters in question can't see that their posts are insulting to families whove spent the best part of 3 decades showing that the blame does not sit with the fans, then I am shocked. I too think there are some lets downs ITT.

Giving an view, however politely and sincerely, that is clearly going to insult people is just bad form imo.

Oh and I've gotta stay true to myself by posting this, or somink.

I know the Independent panel report recently exonerated the fans

I know the Police behaviour and decisions on the day, and the subsequent cover up, was disgraceful. It is rightly and clearly the cause of the disaster, their actions on the day

There's no lack of respect from me towards the families who have campaigned long and hard since 1989

However the Taylor report stated that a minority of fan behaviour was an "exacerbating factor". The HIP certainly tells us that the causative effect of this was insignificant though.

Trying to find nuance on here around these issues without people getting upset looks understandably difficult.

   

Rich a poster has come on at around the time of the anniversary saying that the recent reports exonerating the fans doesn't sit comfortably with him. I guess that there's a debate here, (if we really must have it) but surely you can see this OP is going to offend and that defending it with "well I need to stay true to myself" after posting it around the anniversary. Just lol.

I have heard from HJC and HFSG, and I, like Kin, have spent a long time trying to understand what happened, and can only imagine what people have been through.

Hearing that your other half saw things that were an eye opener (may as well have stuck an exclamation in there and a wink), is that finding nuance?


Please don't now shift the blame on those of us now getting frustrated.

You are probably my favourite poster on blonde mate, but on this one we're miles apart.

I am at work now and short staffed so will not post/comment until later tonight when I get home.

Suffice to say I will not get into specifics on what I saw that day , it would serve no purpose and only lead to more
arguments and people getting upset.

You say it was 100% the police's fault , I say it wasn't. Stated my reasons why on numerous occasions.

Faor enough about the details, pointless I'm sure, but you raised it Your reasons go against everything that has been written factually about, studied, and confirmed beyond all reasonable doubt. I maintain i found it staggering some still have views of your nature. It is simple breath-taking such ignorance still rears its ugly head.

I think you are spot on Tighty.

It's such an emotive subject.

It does sometimes feel like it is so politically sensitive that people are now afraid to air their views.

OK, firstly, the actions of Duckenfield were the direct cause of the deaths and the subsequent attempts to cover for him are a disgrace.
But to absolve the late arriving fans of any blame seems disingenuous at best.
There are always a variety of factors at play, as seen a few years earlier when, an official report found that...

"blame should not rest solely with the English fans, and that some culpability lay with the police and authorities."

A lot of people allowed that incident to colour their view of Hillsborough, me included. I'm ashamed of that now. There has been a long fight for justice and I'm pleased that it is now being delivered.

The 96 were all innocent victims of a foreseeable chain of events that SYP should have handled differently. The fans involved in those events at the Leppings Lane gate could have acted differently but it was unsurprising that they acted as they did and it's inappropriate to blame them.

Still at work , been a long day , very hard to concentrate with the bad blood on here ,
so here goes , deep breath....

I am not as articulate as Tighty , Tikay or Kin but on the other hand I am not
"ignorant" and do "live in the real world"

My second post was insensitive , poorly written and open to a wide interpretation
of what I was trying to say. I do apologise for offending people.

Waz replied saying that I had said arriving late was a same and similar bad
decision as opening the gate. Could you please explain why you came to that
conclusion ?

You also indicated that I thought Liverpool's fans behaviour was different to other
games. Again where in my post's do I say that ?
If by me saying there were a unique set of circumstances on that day , you have
misinterpreted what I meant.

I was 26 at the time and had already been to all of Forest's European and Domestic
Cup Finals including many semi finals. Still vividly remember the replay at Old Trafford
when the svelt like figure of John O'Hare went storming down the middle for an obvious
penalty , well , obvious at the time.

So I was not green behind the ears and knew what to expect when attending high profile ,
sell out events involving two top teams.

So let me try and phrase this better than I have before. If Forest had been given the
Leppings Lane End then I may have been one of those fans rushing to the ground after
a few beers , running through the tunnel , following my mates and jostling to get a good
vantage point. My actions , however innocent and accidental , must have had a bearing on
the number of people losing their lives. Or is that incorrect ?

Would I feel guilty , would I have thought "if only "

No one can be sure unless it actually happens to you.

Fire away but please keep it civil , Tighty and Tikay have enough to do without looking at
this thread every 5 minutes to see if it needs to be locked.

Great post, thanks for being honest.

This thread shows that the actions of the police and the media after the event will never truly be undone. I'm glad they have when it comes to yourself.

So let me try and phrase this better than I have before. If Forest had been given the
Leppings Lane End then I may have been one of those fans rushing to the ground after
a few beers , running through the tunnel , following my mates and jostling to get a good
vantage point. My actions , however innocent and accidental , must have had a bearing on
the number of people losing their lives. Or is that incorrect ?

Would you like to answer my question Baron or are you just going to say lol.

Bookie, I think your last two posts are lots better than your first two. But I think the point is being missed.

If I were a family member of someone who had died (hypothetically) do you think I'd have questioned what your asking many, many years ago? In fact don't you think I'd have spoken to the fans who went into that middle pen? Do you think id have not spent years trying to work out who was responsible. If id met some of those people do you think id have asked them why they went without a ticket, ask them if they tried to back out of the pen, asked them what it was like and tried to measure their guilt? Do you think you're the first person to ask? If you can assign a minimal % of the disaster on the fans what does it prove? That you're clever? Or that the police are less to blame?

Do you think id then like to wait two and a half decades to finally get to the truth and then be happy to hear on an open forum the view of someone who sat at the other end essentially questioning the level of responsibility that sits with individual fans on the anniversary of the event?

If you want my deeply personal opinion, it's in line with David's post above. But again, I'm not sure why you would need it.

If you look at all my posts on this thread I have only used the word blame once.

That was in a paragraph when I was discussing the Police cover up.

Waz says it was 100% the police's fault that 96 people lost their lives.

That is clearly wrong. The HIP report indicates that is wrong saying 41 lives
may have been saved with a better response from the Emergency Services.

The HIP report says the Police action was the direct cause.

Those at the top choose their words very carefully, far better than me but my
initial post , written after a few beers , on an emotional day , I stand by.

Been in many pubs and the topic comes up , always stayed tight lipped because
it is, as people have alluded to, "politically incorrect" to air your thought's if it goes
against the grain.

Needed to get it off my chest , the debate has gone better than I thought although
I do not know what has been deleted  ;)

Of course, I will explain why I came to such a conclusion.

your comments,

To open the gates . Bad decision.
Arriving late at the ground . Bad decision .

indicating that opening the gates was a bad decision, as was arriving late. The same "value".   For me, comparing both to a bad decision is ridiculous.  Arriving late isn't a entirely a conscious decision at all I'd argue, but much more importantly, wasn't the cause of the disaster, to suggest otherwise is shameful.

I have mis-interurpeted a lot it seems then. I can't find the exact reason for my thoughts on it.

End of the day;

I believe that no individual fan was in any way shape to blame for what happened for the reasons I gave, but more importably, every report since confirms.

You believe because some people where late, ticketless etc, they, by their behaviour even though it was normal expected behaviour at such an event, caused the deaths of 96 fans, by the simply fact they were in sheffield.

It is absurd beyond belief.

Plan better, action it better, have experienced people running the day, react better, make decisions correctly....then no matter how many turn up late, ticketless, no matter how awful fans behaviour there is no deaths.  very easy really.

several times I mention authorities.  Splitting hairs though.  I do blame, entirely it on SYP, Duckenfield, SCC.  The emergency services response was a national disgrace.

You have picked two bad decisions out of a few I put down.

Rather selective I would say , much like your view on events.

Would you like to answer my question

So let me try and phrase this better than I have before. If Forest had been given the
Leppings Lane End then I may have been one of those fans rushing to the ground after
a few beers , running through the tunnel , following my mates and jostling to get a good
vantage point. My actions , however innocent and accidental , must have had a bearing on
the number of people losing their lives. Or is that incorrect ?

A simple yes or no will suffice , then we can all move on.

Nothing has been deleted from the thread.

2 selections were what you asked me to comment as a comparison, being late and opening gate.

Yes it is incorrect. "Your actions" had no meanfully effect on what happened, before, during or after.

I will be moving on, i wish you well. But your views are insulting in my opinion and I can't stomach debating them anymore.

I don't know you, never to my knowledge met you, and Im sure you well respected on here and in the poker world and in general, so I will assume we differ greatly on this matter and otherwise you are a decent chap

No. Well done you. I'm not sure why we had to go through it.