blonde poker forum

You are tasked with compiling today's edition of the great Super System book. This is supposed to be the manual for poker and reflective of the modern game.

But it also needs to sell, as the people you want to recruit won't come cheap and your distributors don't either.

You are told that you need to have chapters on the following:

Poker in 2015 (a 5,000 word essay on how much the game has changed and what modern attitudes towards poker are. The writer will have freedom as to what they write)

No Limit Holdem (These need to be general enough as to capture what is needed in cash and tournaments and need to cater to a good range of ability, from aspiring local players to winning grinders)

Pot Limit Omaha

Seven Card Stud

Mixed Games

Cash strategy (This will focus mainly on NLH for the audience but examples in other games may be used, too)

MTT (Again, NLH focus mainly)

STT

Playing in a Casino (A 5,000 word guide to starting out in the live game. The purpose of this will be to reassure new or online-only players that casinos aren't full of burly gangsters and poker is a fun, sociable game. You want funny anecdotes and a little strategy)

Cover photo (A person? A hand? You want something memorable and which defines poker in 2015, even if that means referring back to the old days)


Ok. Over to you.

For reference, the 1979 original contents, as per Wikipedia:

The book begins with a biographical sketch of Doyle Brunson and then quickly discusses general poker strategy. General strategy includes controlling emotion, watching competitors play, reasoning out play, and other similar tips that benefit all forms of poker play.

The sections of the book dedicated to strategy were divided as follows:

Draw poker written by Mike Caro. Among other things, Caro writes in detail about tells, how to gain information about an opponent's hand based on how they act. He is regarded as an expert on poker psychology and behavior and would later go on to write his own seminal book on tells.

Seven-card stud written by Chip Reese

Lowball written by Joey Hawthorne and Doyle Brunson

Seven-card stud high-low split (with no qualifier for low) by David Sklansky

Limit Texas hold 'em by Bobby Baldwin

No-limit Texas hold 'em by Doyle Brunson

Finally, there is a comprehensive list of probability and statistics calculated by Mike Caro. In addition to raw numbers, many scenarios are investigated and common questions are answered.


The 2004 version, Super System 2, again from Wikipedia:

The second book is broken up into several sections, each covering a different variant of poker, and written by experts on those games. Contributors include: Daniel Negreanu; Lyle Berman, founder of the World Poker Tour; Bobby Baldwin; Johnny Chan; Mike Caro; Jennifer Harman; Todd Brunson; Steve Zolotow; and Crandell Addington.

No chapter on PLO8?  Think we can live without stud?
Need separate chapters on Hypers/Sats/double or nothings/staking?
Needs a software chapter?
Needs a guide to ghosting, sharing of hands, soft playing, swapping of screen names, shared bankrolls?

Lol

Swapping and staking can be captured in the essay chapters, for example, as can software. You get to choose and brief the contributors, after all.

If you want to add a chapter (on Split Games, PLO8 specifically or something else), I reckon the publishers can be persuaded, although you'll need to make a compelling case with a name people will want to read.

Stud is a good 'home game' game and easy to follow. That has to stay in.

I always assumed that keeping Stud in the second book was more of a nod to the original writers who were all big stud players than to contribute much strategic content.

Thee things that Doobs mentioned are much more relevant to improving the winrate of your intended audience than a seven card stud chapter would be imo.

Then again it would probably be easy enough to write 5,000 words about most of those points, such if the nightmarish task of a book editor I suppose

Stud type games are still central to the roster of mix games in Las Vegas mid to high stakes cash games, which explains their inclusion I guess.

PLO8 would definitely be a good chapter.

OFC too?

I bought the original Super System and I have to say it revolutionised the way I lost.

Publishers say OFC has had its peak and their research tells them 95% of their audience aren't interested in a specified, detailed chapter. Doesn't mean it can't be part of an existing brief, though.

Mods, add UP TO TWO CHAPTERS OF YOUR CHOICE to the list in the OP, please, but they need to be justified, because the publishers will need to be "sold" on the idea before they fork out the cash.

No one going first?

No, I'm scared.

If we have a "Playing in a Casino" chapter, as you suggest, ought we have a "Playing Online" Chapter, too?

Publishers say MTT and STT chapters will be largely online focused. Also, for the European market, most of the non-holdem games will invariably be online rather than live. In the USA market, playing online is problematic. Live chapter will recognise that lots of people will have played online before they walk through the casino door.

Where is your justification for the chapters you chose?  O8 is the 2nd most popular STT game and probably 3rd most popular game overall after hold em and Omaha.  We don't need to spoil it by combining it with stud hi lo.  You can throw stud and arid hi lo into an 8 game/mixed game chapter.  I thought the brief was a 2015 version and not a 1975 version?  Suggest the casino chapter is the last one for all those who have failed to get competitive online.  Though these days you'd probably need a U.S. version and a free world version to recognise that in some places you can't play online.

You probably need to find some players that are still competitive to write the chapters.

It's only a bit of fun, doobs.

::)

Yes, you can put split games into mixed games if you want. The shape of it is down to you and your contributors. Yes, the contributors need to be a good combination of relevant and engaging. You have a varied audience to satisfy if you what to make yourself rich.

Are you going to come up with your list of contributors and their chapters?

Ok. Was holding off, but here's my effort. I've added two categories, as per Doobs's suggestion that there would be a benefit to doing so...
 
Cover Photo: Martin Jacobsen playing Doyle Brunson heads up. We want to have reference to the original book and the fact this is now 2015.
 
Poker in 2015: Victoria Coren-Mitchell. The first two-time EPT winner, a symbol of the modern game (not only but certainly not least through her gender) and one of the most accessible writers on any subject is charged with arguably its most important role. She will be expected to research and to offer positive insight on the progression from dingy, smoke-filled poker den-dwellers to the clean-cut, hoodie-clad, ICM monkeys. We don't want people skipping to the strategy sections and we want those who start with the introduction to want to read on. Safe pair of hands.
 
No Limit Holdem: Ike Haxton. There is no question that a NLH section must be as forward-thinking and progressive as possible, as the chapter must have relevance in two, three, five...years' time and that simply won't be possible unless one of the greats of the game in 2015 is writing it. This might well be the most-read and most intensely studied chapter, so handing it over to one of the elite is a no-brainer. There are clearly a few you could choose, here, but I think there's a good spot to follow VCM with Ike, given their heavily contrasting images.  
 
Pot Limit Omaha: Phil Galfond. A lot of today's younger players talk a good game to those who can already play one. Phil Galfond can talk to anyone. A talented writer with an established fanbase and someone who has experienced everything the game has to offer.  
 
PLO8: George Danzer. Whilst he could easily be in the Stud or Mixed Game sections and whilst this could well be the most controversial choice, I'm going to argue that there needs to be a European for the PLO8 section, rather than an American, and a highly successful all-round poker player with an established fanbase is hardly a poor selection. 1.01 he is researched, writes well and surprises a few naysayers. As this is a fast-growing game, it's important to focus on strategy for low stakes players, albeit with some more advanced aspects included.
 
Seven Card Stud: Jeff Lisandro. We have international markets to aim for, but we are also lucky that Jeff is highly regarded in this game and continues to achieve success in the WSOP. He is going to take some convincing to write, but we will find a way. Vastly experienced, highly successful and with an almost peerless longevity at the top of the game, this very entertaining and well-known name should prove an interesting draw for a wide audience.
 
Mixed Games: Phil Ivey. One, he's the poker player even people who don't know the hand rankings have heard of. Two, he's Phil Blinking Ivey. As coups go, it's a barnstormer and securing "No Home Jerome" makes the publishers their investment back by itself.
 
Cash Strategy: Tom Dwan. Bankroll management is an important feature of this chapter and the man who plays for sums we can barely imagine will need to show his skill in discussing five dollar pots. He is rated in a breadth of games and should be able to offer lots of insight on how to build your game and your balance, both live and online.
 
MTT: Chris Moorman. One of the easier choices; a name, a face, a recent author and respected the world over. The focus will be on the principles involved: early, deepstacked stages changing gears, final table strategy, deals and everything inbetween.
 
STT: Taylor Paur. An elite coach and a successful player, remembering that a lot of the audience will be happiest playing small buy-in, hour long sit and go's, this is a very important chapter to get right. The chapter will need to range from the basics of underlining the importance of position to the most advanced and forward-thinking aspects of the game.
 
Playing the Player: Phil Hellmuth Jr. This might be a controversial choice, but I want to find a good balance between name, writing style and content. This essay will be on establishing information from your opponents in whatever format. This will likely be more live than online, where the two articles before will touch on that. This isn't just about physical information, though, but a way of getting to understand what makes people tick, how to identify weakness and strength and how to manipulate situations to your advantage.
 
Playing in a Casino: "Mad" Marty Wilson If there's somewhere he hasn't been, it's probably not worth writing about. If there's a more welcoming person to have at your table, I've yet to meet them. If this doesn't leave you smiling, you should consult an undertaker immediately. An excellent way to finish the greatest poker book of our time.    

 

I don't think we can call this "Super System".

Suggested titles are?

Matt Ashton would be a shoe in for the mixed games. Speaks really really well whilst also crushing online and additionally recent 50k players champion and won wsop poy.

Wcg for no limit he's known by everybody as the best in the world.

Dan Colman for MTTs. Record speaks for itself

Playing the llayer - ari engel.. Plays more live tournaments than anybody else and has very good records

Plo is tough but I wouldn't go for galfond

Specific mixed games - perhaps freshod or an online guy who is playing day in day out and running a lot of sims etc

Not Tom Dwan either. Foxwoods Fiend said last week that Dwan was a mark 5 years ago to online guys and has done very little since.

In 40 runner super high rollers.

I'd have thunk a P5s highly ranked chappy like yourself would have been voting much for a Moorman type in this category.

+1 to not Dwan for the cash games btw.

"The Modern Felt:  Understanding ranges and how to avoid assaulting socially compromised nerds"

?

Would be interesting to hear Shaun Deeb's Stud game

That's interesting, Brian Townsend was a hero for a while, then it moved to Tom Dwan and a few others. Who are the 3 or 4 players at the top of the food chain now?

Doug Polk, who Pads mentioned earlier.

Mikael Thuritz?

Dan Cates?

Ike Haxton?

How about a chapter on weeding or going South as they call it in the USA.

I can think of several who were masters of this art but one famous one.

whoever wcg puts in his power ranking on twitter.

Who is wcg?

Unbelievable! How can you not know who Wcg is? He's like literally the best player ever ever ever.

Tell him, Pleno.

;whistle;

Lol, tell me too, please.

I thought weeding and going South were two separate disciplines Ralph, the former being to remove money from the game while staying at the table, and the latter being to leave the table with the money.

It's this guy (http://www.highstakesdb.com/profiles/pokerstars/WCG%7CRider.aspx)

He's lost half a million dollars in the last 18 months!

Ahh, gotcha, thanks.

It depends who we are aiming this book at, & who the target market are.

The basic poker population is simply not big enough if we want to make money at this project. The "poker curious" are far more important, and a much bigger market.

No matter how good this wcg chap is, he wont cut much ice with the poker curious, even assuming he is reasonably able to articulate his thoughts well.

They want names they can recognise, off the telly. Ivey, Hellmuth, Danny, Dwan & co.

It does not matter that they are not deemed any good by Team Nosebleed - they are not the target market. The target market is a very different animal.

never heard of him

known personalities required, i think

+1 to known personalities.

No joke, Gus Hansen would sell this book. The poker curious as Teeks calls em are blissfully unaware of his $20m in online losses, all they know he is that crazy guy who won a bunch of WPTs.

You sure?

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=191988 (http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=191988)

Really isn't like he is a nobody.

And presumably Dave Shoelace put Gus Hansen's name on the cover of his book to make it sell?   ;)

Maybe he missed a trick?

If the basis of him being the BITB is his results, I'd take his High Stakes DB results as most representative, given the sample size.

He can obviously poker, but I have a book to sell, so it's the irrefutable best or I want a name that is a good writer.

He is a nobody though, to the audience we are talking about. The audience for a modern super system is people dipping their toe into poker, just getting into it, on the fences. These guys have know idea who WGCRider is, they do know who Negreanu, Hellmuth, Hansen, Ivey, Brunson, Durrrr, Devilfish etc is, mostly from TV.

WGC is a huge somebody in the serious poker community, but we are a very small community.

In fact, the fact that people in this thread didn't know who he is backs up my point.

I always assumed the the "going South" bit was the money going under the table and into a pocket but I could be mistaken.

Seems we have a mix between wanting to write a good book and just trying to sell.

What is the average age of the people who don't know who he is?  How many poker books are they likely to buy between them in the next 12 months?  What age group is going to be buying poker books?

He is the Durrr of his day.  He is the one making and accepting challenges*, and not Dwan.  I assume Gus/Durrr etc are no longer sponsored as their day is past.  I am not saying that he is better known than Gus Hansen, just that I don't think there is much in it amongst your kids just discovering poker and looking for a book.  A Google search on Hansen isn't going to be a big selling point these days.  And why would the kids know who Tom Dwan is at all?

* and finishing them?

Possible, but unlikely.

Put Doug in the Staking/Backing/Stable part of the book?

The problem is that we (everybody ITT and the industry, not just you and I) have different opinions of what this 'untapped curious mainstream audience' looks like demographically. You for examples see them as young online guys about to find the game via Google etc. I view them much more broadly as mass market, all ages, finding the game via WPT reruns, Sky Poker on Sky Sports etc.

I'll sound like I'm from Tikay's era when I say this, but according to that HSDB link, WCGRider is down like $500k in cash games in the last 18months. And he's the best in the world at cash games?

I remembers Pleno's "you should never have a losing month" cash game theory. Has he just been reeeeeeeally unlucky? Won loads on "untracked" sites? Won loads at stakes too small to be reported by HSDB?

There generally isn't the same amount of volume in the high stakes games online than the rest of em. Never having a losing month might be accurate for Pleno1 when he was doing NL500 Zoom because he could get a shit load of hands in. Player pools are small in the nosebleeds and only a handful of tables run online, so its actually probably closer to live poker in the volume respect than many people realise (Still loads more hands in general though).

He is representing the humans vs the machines so take that for what it is worth.

Agreed, the sample size renders Pleno's theory meaningless at those stakes.  That was just his full tilt graph too, his pokerstars is a bit better:

http://www.highstakesdb.com/profiles/WCGRider.aspx (http://www.highstakesdb.com/profiles/WCGRider.aspx)

Sure he doesn't feel too poor after that and his $4m of live winnings in the same period.  I assume he also plays a decent amount of live high stakes cash too given he is listed as from the US.

Edit, they are both listed as full tilt on the highstakes website, guess one is stars and the other is full tilt, but it doesn't really matter which is which, he doesn't look like he is losing overall or over the last 18 months.

You have a reasonable chance of scoring this coup atm. He's down a mill ball in 8game this year alone

High stakes swings in matches are millions though. Of course a guy playing very few hands/month is not going to be able to control variance. I meant that anybody playing medium/small
Stakes and able to play somewhat of a sample couldn't have a losing month.

Why is the reason he hasn't won? Because nobody will play him. Ask ike/sauce/anybody else mentioned in the thread and they all think he is the best in the world and won't play against him.

In terms of not knowing who he is, how many people really knew all the Jennifer harmens or whoever else wrote super system before it was released.

If yu asked the top 500 players in the world who the best no limit player is I would bet over 450 of them would say wcg.

I'd bet most of them would say themselves actually

If they couldn't include themselves, I'd bet against you on that.

I'd be surprised if anyone in the bottom 250 said themselves.

Having said that I think WCG is one of the worst to write in the book. Its about teaching the audience something. The audience probably wouldn't understand the level of his strategy unless he significantly dumbed it down so I can't see why you would choose him over a better teacher and worse player combination.

Also part of the never have a losing month was the fact that you can alwyas get 20+bis in rakeback each month. If you give wcg 20bis/month extra he'd of course still be winning even if he went on the sickest downswing ever

He was posting strategy content for the last 6-7 years. He was one of the biggest posters in small stakes no limit on 2p2. He grinded nl100 for years and has played every single stake. He is known to be one of the best coaches too, has an extremely profitable stable where he does a lot of coaching and is known to be one if the revolutionaries of the game introducing stuff like leading turns, changing of ore flop sizings etc.

Don't get me wrong I really don't like him as a person and think he comes across as arrogant etc but if the task was to do this at the best of his absolute then he would (imo) be the only clear choice for any of the categories.

@barry I would set the line at 490 people out of the 500 saying him because it's really that clear amongst most of the higher stakes regs how good he is.

Also he has taken guys who have never played poker in their life and within 6 months made them high stakes crushers, I doubt anybody else in the world could do that and shows he's more than capable of "dumbing down" content.

Lol! You were watching him on the final table when he won his bracelet last year...

In terms of tv in 2015 which is what is relevant he has been on the high stakes cash games, one drop etc. Does a lot of interviews. This week he is playing against university bots from MIT etc I really surprised at how people here view him but it's obviously the "general opinion" so I guess you guys are right.

Ahh yes, so I was.

I would never have associated him with this wcg chap though.

he's been playing plo hu v Galfond, who's apparently fairly decent.

Also I think Durrr for bankroll management is pretty laughable since he's a bit of a joke now what with the challenge and the fact everyone says he's probably broke these days. Mtts or live play should probably be done by Daniel Negreanu, don't think anyone has as much of a following as he does

(https://i.imgur.com/DIbdlmk.jpg)

Sorry had to be done

If there was some way of easily making this 490 out of 500 bet I'd love to take it, sadly it would be the impossible to do. Not that I'm not saying you are right, based on what you are saying its hard to despute his quality, just poker is so subjective I doubt 490 of the top 500 think as you do. I reckon you'd get at least 40 knee jerk Ivey responses for a start.

Sorry I'm talking about top 500 winning online cash game players not 500 random people in the world or 500 live guys etc. Not one would say Ivey.

Yeah I'd bet against that too, I was also assuming you meant top 500 winning online cash players. You don't think a single one has a man crush on Ivey? Don't get me wrong, I know it would be a very small number compared to the usual toplists.

It's moot anyway, there is no way of accuratley identifying this top 500.

Poker in 2015: Daniel Negreanu- Been around for ages, playing the biggest games/tourneys. Went from being at the top of the game to most probably the fish in most games he played back to on top. Has seen and understood the changes and adjustments to poker and what it takes to be a top player in today's games compared to 20 years ago.
 
No Limit Holdem: WCG- theres a reason no one in the world is willing to play him. Super smart guy and runs a very successful stable/has coached players to the top of the power rankings.

Pot Limit Omaha: Can't really pick one out. Ben Tollerene (Ben86/Bttech)same as WCG no one will play him HU, Phil Galfond-super smart and articulate, gets his though process across very well, only downside is he hasn't made any money in 5 years, Berri Sweet-results are phenomenal, downside is no one knows who he is.  Odd Oddsen- cos he's Odd Oddsen
 
PLO8: No idea
 
Seven Card Stud: Probably some old guy who has been playing for 50 years. Maybe one of the Vegas mixed game regs.
 
Mixed Games: Matt Ahston or Sauce
 
Cash Strategy: Cole South- really smart and articulate, knows cash games inside out, been around for ages and has adapted and progressed with the games.
 
MTT: Fedor or Pads
 
STT: People still play these? Dan Colman as a guess

Playing the Player: Mike McDonald
 
I'd add a chapter on exploitative vs GTO, how this has changed the game and why. Obv written by Ike.

If anyone has ever seen a video by Ivey or even heard about him talking about poker they wouldn't want him anywhere near a book.

http://www.twitch.tv/claudico_vs_dougpolk

Grunching thread so not sure what others have said fun idea though

A bunch of the games I am not really sure about to be honest

Poker in 2015 - This is a tough one to be honest as you would want someone with some longevity in poker, but is also quite well known. As much as I dislike him in general Daniel Negs would be a good option he has been around a long time and is a stars pro and plays live mainly so perhaps a reasonable person to talk about how the game has changed.

Cash games Nlhe - WCG rider is a great choice, I think that yes he is a online player and many pure rec's won't know him but poker is more educated these days and many 'semi' recs sub to training sites and browse various poker forums. Plus he is far and away the best nlhe player in the world even if he is a douchebag lol
He is also taking on the NLHE bot so maybe this would raise his profile amongst the general poker market

PLO - Galfond/Sauce seems a good choice for PLO. Even though Galfond doesn't really play that much these days he is a great teacher and poker mind is well known a respected by all

PLO8 - pass!

Seven card stud - erm pass! Maybe Shuan deeb as I recall he had a SCOOP one year when he crushed all the stud events!

Mixed games - I am going to say Ivey but also tempted to say sauce if he doesn't do the PLO part. Ivey has a good record in mixed games both cash and tournaments has played in the biggest games live forever

Cash strategy - Not sure why you need this in addition to the various games

MTT's - I think Timex would be the perfect choice, beat HS online MTTs for a long time (not sure about recently but he plays mainly live I think now) and has won a number of high rollers live also.

STT - Someone like jorj95 the SNE stars pro who has crushed SNGs forever and all formats as well

Playing the player - Again massive dislike for him but really Phil Hellmuth would be good for this spot if not him perhaps ElKY would be a good choice pretty well known a real character also

Playing in a casino - Not sure I would have picked that as a category or why it’s need