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A chance to celebrate England and Englishness or thinly disguised racism and xenophobia?

Discuss.

I didn't even know it was St George's day until i went to my local for dinner last night.  What do people do to celebrate St George's day?  Don't think i have ever done anything on this day in my life to celebrate it.

I love our country.

Proud to be English , one of the best places in the world to live for so many different reasons.

Why can't we celebrate our diverse culture , our heritage , the respect we have around the world.

Most of all , I love our sense of humour , not all countries get it.

the former, sometimes turned into the latter by some elements

no different than st patricks day, st davids day etc which countries are happy to celebrate, there seems to be a sneering element at people proud to be English

"I love our country." "one of the best places in the world to live for so many different reasons." does not necessarily equal "Proud to be English"

Proud of the slave trade? Proud of colonialism? Proud of our role in the Iraq war?

Etc etc and etc

(http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b66b9bdd0d4b66e79753e354bfb382de?convert_to_webp=true)

Because St Patricks Day has always been celebrated and St Georges Day has never been a "thing" until the last couple of years.

We can't all be perfect. ;D

The question is open to different interpretations , I'm happy to take mine.

Cannot think of any other nationality I would rather be.

I'm with you Jimbo  :)

its always been st georges day celebrated by some, just the noisier element (a more negative one) have thrust it into the limelight

thus it now gains more attention

I am in big trouble now then ;)

If Carling made as big a deal promoting St Georges day as Guinness does St Patrick's day then it would probably be a bigger deal to the vast majority of English people.  I just don't think the vast majority of English people feel the need to 'celebrate' the day.  I feel pretty much the same as Jim with regards to England.

St George is of course Syrian.

Why would a Canadian company want to promote St George's Day? :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carling_brewery

Didn't realise that.  Nice work.  Always thought they were born and bred as a brand in Burton on Trent.  You learn something every day.  TY Nandos lover!

St Patricks day celebrations might be a few hundred years older than St Georges day ones - but both are relatively ancient, so it definitely can't be dismissed as a modern 'invention' in any way.

As for the problems with the slave trade and colonialism - the former is ubiquitous throughout history and geography, if anything it should provide something to be proud of as the English were amongst the first to lead calls for its abolition. The latter is similarly widespread, albeit limited to the smaller number of larger nations - judging a country by either factor (particularly using modern sensibilities) is akin to judging a nation through it's previous use of iron in the iron age and bronze in the bronze age.

I would have thought pride in the country (or otherwise) has to be more generally judged by the more general concepts that might represent it.

That's an interesting one. His parents were Greek, he was part of the Holy Roman Empire and he was born in what is now Israel. Take your pick, really.

St Patrick was English, doesn't seem to bother the Irish.

I'm proud to be English, but saying this publicly seems to have so many negative connotations because, as Tighty said, the negative side seems to appear more frequently in the media and on social media.

I presume this is a wind up Camel. I won't even put a question mark after it.

I used to think the other home nations celebrating their national day was a bit OTT, but the more we get marginalised the more I feel a need to say I am proud to be English.

I am, and I am sure every other country in the world has issues that don't sit well in history, but it is those sorts of comments as posted, that make me wonder why those people, English or otherwise, live here, if they think so little of England.

Probably because for other national holidays in the British Isles it is seen as a chance to celebrate their own nationality.

As English people are more comfortable with English/British people have never felt the need to have a day to mark it.

Does France/Germany/Italy etc have a major national day?

They seem to have a few each mate! But yes, I think most countries have either some form of Independence/Republic Day or Unity Day.
 
Denmark of the places I go to are about the only one I can think of that doesn't seem to have one.

I always used to use Paddys day as an excuse to get smashed up on a weeknight, and likewise St. Georges :D

Think that was par for the course, for most in the 18-25 bracket...

or any day ending with a "Y" ;)

Only did that when I was home on leave ;D

Nicola Sturgeon @NicolaSturgeon

A very happy St George's Day to family and friends in England.


lol, lady's PR is good

I am proud to be English.
It's the word I use in the Nationality box on hotel check in forms.

I understand that the Welsh, the Irish and obviously the Scots are also proud of their nationalities.

I'm also proud to be British.

When I wore a suit to work I would wear a red rose on April 23rd, but that was a fair while ago now.

I would not, however, support a St George's Day celebration sponsored by a lager brand. It would have to be sponsored by the independent brewers of traditional ale to get my backing.

Who, precisely, defines themselves as English? And why?

 http://econ.st/1GlHfOS 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDSbttFWIAA9XUg.png)

Me. Because I am!

Obviously not many ex or armed forces reading this post. St Georges day has always celebrated by the majority of military personnel.

Being english i think we are slightly more reserved.

LOL @ the English being marginalised.

Next you'll be saying rich, white middle aged men are discriminated against because Clarkson lost his job for punching a colleague at work.

Great poster, sums it up nicely. The nationalism in Wales always offended me growing up. In spite of this, I think England/Wales/Britain has a lot to be proud of. It´s just a shame that the people who make the most noise about it are mostly the same people who identify with UKIP and think we should leave Europe. Taking pride in England/Britain has been commandeered by the numpties, it´s kind of hard to lose that association.

I celebrated eating the first English asparagus of the year today, delicious.

Happy English Asparagus Day to one and all.

The strawberries still aren't much cop yet, not sweet enough. Another few weeks and we will be there. :)

That was one of the many great things about the London Olympics.

Decent ordinary British people reclaimed the flag from the extreme right like BNP, UKIP and the EDL.

It might have been the first time in my adult life I wasn't ashamed to be British. (or maybe that should be "I wasn't ashamed to be proud to be British")

I can't remmeber ever in my adult life feeling ashamed to be proud to be British, I have lived and worked aboard in several different countries and travelled around a bit on holiday and never have I once been anything other than proud and happy to be British, the vast majority of people I have met abroad are always happy to chat about different parts of British culture and humour.   I find your comments quite odd Keith tbh as I never once think about the extreme right views on these matters.  They are extreme and don't represent our country at home or abroad.  Have you had an experience personally where you have been caught up in a ruck regarding this subject.?

Agree with Argue here.

Not sure why you thought my comment on feeling marginalised was so amusing. It was nothing to do with class/colour/creed, just about how I am made to be British by way of numerous thing, like passport etc, and yet Irish/Welsh/Scots seem able to retain a national identity a lot better than English seem to.

I also get sick of some people linking my pride in being English, not Welsh/Scottish or Irish with being some form of racist. Does that mean because they are proud to be Irish/Scottish/Welsh, they are racist too?!

feck me if adz agrees with me Keef is under the cosh!!!!  Love you adz!

Just to clarify my own position i am 87.5% scottish by family genes but born and raised 100% in England (3rd generation steel worker in Corby Northants - both grand fathers came to Corby after the 2nd world war to work in the nationalized steel works which Maggie closed down in the early 80s).  I never ever consider myself English or Scottish.  I always consider myself British and i am very proud to wherever i am in the world.  If people ask i say i am Scottish by family but born and raised in England.  My entire Scottish family hate the idea of the snp killing the union and are all big tory voters even though Maggie destroyed their adopted town, Corby, in the early 1980s with her closure of the steel works.    My whole family and Corby as a town was on it's knees in 1982 with 25% unemployment but we all worked hard and came out of it in front through the bad times.  We have always had the attitude of 'you get out of life what you put into it'.  Plenty of people in Corby are still potless following the 1980s closure but most of them pissed their redundancy up the wall and made excuses rather than getting their head down and taking the huge opportunities that were on offer in the tough times to make a livelihood for themselves.

I was slightly more Scottish in 2012 when Muz won the US open and the gold at the games but only slightly more!!!!!!!

I think I may have some odd views when it comes to St George's day.  I'm born and bred in England (luton to be precise) from "foreign" parents, (mother is Danish & father is Indian).  I have always been proud of being English & Lutonion and as a result will defend town & country when appropriate!  But, having worked in a pub for the last 9 years of my life, i can honestly say that St George's day is probably one of the worst days to work in the year (within the industry in my experience). Granted this is coming from 7 years in various Luton pubs, birth place of the EDL etc etc and with my skin colour and beard length, never a good mixture!  Never understood why St Pats day can be such good fun & light hearted but when it comes to George its completely different.  The stupid thing with it is that the majority of people who are out today on the piss are also out on St Pats claiming that their mother's, father's, brother's, nephew's, uncle's, wife's, son's, cousin's are Irish and they are therefor entitled to celebrating.

I think that the English have gotten a load of bad press and that if people are seen to be flying the St George's cross they will be cast in a certain light, but, this is only because the rest of the nation are not following suit.  It is unfortunately the minority that are getting portrayed in the press and so giving everyone a bad name.  Like someone said earlier in the thread, if a proper brewery made it "their" day and threw lots of money at it then i can't see any reason why St George's could get the same sort of press as St Pats!

Where do we see the flag of St George?

England football fans on tour. Hooligans. Yobs on holiday in Ibiza. People who you'd cross the road to avoid if they were walking towards you.

EDL marches. They drape themselves with the thing. Do a google image search of "EDL March" if you don't believe me.

It's got to the point when I see the Flag of St George flown outside someone's house, I assume they are a far right bigot.

The Union Jack hasn't quite got the same stigma for me. But it's headed that way.

There are plenty of houses across the entire social spectrum where i live who fly the flag of St George all year round in the garden/house/window from working class types to upper class farmer types.  Not huge numbers but you do see it.  I would say Staffordshire is a pretty neutral area politically across the whole country.  I agree it has the image you are talking about but i just don't see myself as English but British.  I think it is a very British thing to be reserved about stuff like this.  Yanks are the total opposite and you can't go in a gas station in vegas without being greeted with a 25 foot USA flag on arrival.  I don't think it is the bad thing the vast majority of people make out in this country.  I couldn't imagine filling my car up and driving in and seeing a huge st george flag in every petrol station as a matter of course.  

Americans are just plain weird.

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-UGv4XsEWQ

Land of the free and you can't play poker in your own living room or place a bet on the Superbowl unless you happen to be in Nevada.

I totally agree the vast majority of yanks are fucked up.  The above two things you say just prove it.  Both of these things make me very proud to be British (amongst numerous other positives about living and being British) that we have a society that will let you do these things legally in a controlled safe regulated manner without risk of arrest or jail.

<deep breath>

The English don't retain a "national identity" because we haven't got one.

And people who pretend we have, tend to be UKIP supporters.

There's a lot to love about England, but none of those things make me "proud to be English"

The English flag might be recovered from those groups if it was used more, especially by organizations.

I'm working at the local Council at the moment and they sometimes fly a line of flags outside. Happened twice last week on St George's Day and the Queen's Birthday and again today for some reason.

There are twelve flags - the Union Jack plus the flags of Germany, France, Scotland, Wales, Australia, Canada, India, Pakistan, South Africa, Nigeria and Malta. I have no idea how they have settled on those, but there seems to be one missing. Even on St George's Day, we had all the others but no English flag.

Probably because some bellend would find a reason why it's racist to put the English flag up.

My Father flew the St George Cross during the last couple of World Cups he was around for. He was as far from being a far right bigot as it is possible to be. Indeed, if the world had more people like my Dad it would be a far better place.

Making such assumptions about people based on the flag they fly isn't that far removed from judging people based on their skin colour or accent.

You're right of course.

But since I was little I have never really understood nationalism or patriotism.

People are quite entitled to feel proud of their or their families accomplishments, but why would anyone be proud to to be English or British?

I've always thought it is nonsensical.

It is purely an accident of birth where you are born, why be proud of that?

The world cup / major sporting events are vastly different to a cold Tuesday in March.
I'm like Keith. If I see the English flag outside someone's house, I'm odds on they are a far right bigot.

Are you proud of any of your heritage Keith?

My parents were both very loyal supporters of the Boys' Brigade and Girls' Brigade. They gave countless hours in providing a purpose for the young people in their care.
They were solid church going folk and spent a lot of their lives helping others.
Dad was still active in these regards into his eighties.
I'm proud of what they did.

I'm also proud to be part of the nation that gave the world so much.
Proud of Magna Carta, proud that our Parliament provided the model for much of the world.
Proud of Shakespeare.
Proud that our little country was the foremost innovator in the Industrial Revolution.
Proud of Churchhill and proud that this small nation opened it's doors to the world.

I'm proud to be British too. Proud of the part that the Scots played in creating so much of the modern world. Proud that the Irish played their part and the Welsh.

So why shouldn't the St George Flag and the Union Flag be flown by those of us who have that pride? Why shouldn't we reclaim them from the bigots, the racists and the thugs?

I suppose you can argue that you form part of a well functioning society - one that pays tax, looks after it's ill and creates an infrastructure for industry and innovation (I'm not arguing England does this by the way!).   If that is the case then I think you can be proud of being a small cog in whatever nation you are?

I never celebrate St George's Day, but some of the posts in this thread are odd.

To say people can't be proud of being English because of the slave trade, is no different than saying the Germans or South Africans can't ever be proud due to history.

Different generations shouldn't have to bear the weight of their ancestors if their countries are now vibrant.

Which countries are allowed to proud?  Which ones have a clean slate?

I'm proud of *my* heritage, yes.

And anyone is quite entitled to be proud of the good deeds of their parents/family.

But why would you be "proud" of the bolded bit? They hadn't nothing to do with you.

In the dictionary "proud" is defined as "feeling deep pleasure or satisfaction as a result of one's own achievements, qualities, or possessions or those of someone with whom one is closely associated.".

I respect the work of Shakespeare, I'm impressed at the industrial revolution and although he was probably a bit of dick, I quite admire Churchill's leadership during the war.

But I am not proud of any of them.

Pretty sure Germans and South Africans aren't proud of the history of their country.

That's not the question - do you think they can be proud of their nation?

I really cannot understand having the emotion of being proud of a country.

I don't think patriotism can really be described rationally, I'd have thought it's similar to the idea that people have when they follow a sports team. The results have zero, or at best nearly zero, to do with them - doesn't stop them being proud of "their" team's results.

Agreed, it is nothing you have control of.  Sometimes when people ask me where do I come from I say I am an Earthling.  This was probably more appropriate a few years ago when visiting the USA we had go to the alien queue and fill in an alien registration form.

As much as I want QPR to win every game they play, I'm wasn't "proud" of them when they got promotion. I was very happy.

I'm proud of Jake when does a good deed or gets positive comments for his schoolwork.

But the two emotions can in no way be confused or compared.

I appreciate that - but if a young German is proud to be German I don't think you should wave WW2 in his face (for example) as a reason as to why he shouldn't be.

Having had some "difficult" experiences at border control in the USA, I hope you didn't make that comment to them. Doubt they would have seen the funny side!

I wouldn't unless he was a patriot and seemed to be proud of his country.

If you take some of the credit for the good stuff which has happened in your country, you have to take some of the blame for the bad stuff.

You're not in control of who your parents are either but you can be proud of them.  I'm not especially proud of being english when abroad given how some of my countrymen behave, but I don't like the tone that people who are proud of their origin must somehow be far right/xenophobic.  It's perfectly reasonable to be proud of your nation, and can be beneficial if society works harder and embraces the creation of infrastructure and support networks with more enthusiasm.

My parents share the same genes. And broadly held the same views and attitudes (My dad turned into a bit of a Tory as he got older, but I forgave him :))

Why would I be proud of the achievements of someone I've never met and have nothing in common with just because they happen to have been born in the same piece of land as me?

That seems completely illogical.

I am no more proud of Jessica Ennis than I am of Usain Bolt or David Rudisha.

I am in awe of all their athletic achievements, but I am proud of none of them.

If I was Jessica's trainer and my knowledge and knowhow directly improved her performance and helped her win a gold medal, I think I would be proud.

Otherwise, she seems like a nice woman and is an increibly talented and hardworking athlete.

So when she won the gold at London 2012 I was very happy for her. But in no way was I proud.

I did once say after my passport was returned I found it strange to be considered an alien.  The blank look I received told it all. 

I'm going to go with Costa Rica.

This is based on someone telling me the other day that they're the only country that hasn't got an army.

If you banded together with a few farmers next to you, built some towns and created a tax system that looked after the ill people in your region could you be proud of the newly formed "Camel Land"?  Could your group's children also be proud of being Camelites because their fathers had taught them the same skills and values?

Blimey if everyone held pretty much identical views, skills and outlook on life it would be a pretty boring country!

Stepfordland.

The Camelites still argue in the taverns they have built.  But they see eye to eye on how to organise themselves to build a better network of town than the Dungtons in the surrounding valleys.  Can the Camelites be proud of their community? 

how far back do you go with pride Keith?

There's a fair chance you're related to say, Shakespeare, and if you go back far enough at one point you're absolute related to every 'English' (whatever that might mean...) person before a certain time, leaving to the perverse situation where you can be proud of family, but not of country even though they are arguably the same.

I am proud of grandparents.

But before that? Nope.

We shall have to agree to differ.

Seeing such civility makes me proud of Blonde.