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Someone offered me an interesting prop bet tonight.

Which out of Rafa or Tiger would win a major first from now onwards or would neither of them manage it?

2/1 each of three.

Which corner are you taking?

Nadal all day

Closer than people think.

Probably taking the neither.

On current form the favourite would be neither - Tiger is cooked and Rafa is nearly 30 and may not be getting the same 'help' he might have been getting in the past. Also, his game is based around power and physicality and so is likely to fade quicker than Federer who has more finesse. Also, not only does he has Djokovic/Murray to contend with but we're seeing the next generation begin to come through as well.

However, Rafa will always have Paris, and Tiger could even take two years off to sort himself out and could come back and still be a good age to win a major.

I'd still go Neither/Rafa/Tiger in that order.

Think I would take neither, cant see woods winning another major

13/10 Neither
2/1 Rafa
11/4 Woods

And I would feel relatively happy about it. (Disclaimer - I have been drinking)

Neither

Definitely not backing neither.
 I would like a price on either woods or nadal winning another major.

The more i think 11/4 woods is tempting. The man is the greatest and he will be back.

Neither.

That said, I have thought for some time that Tiger is playing, some elaborate/complex game of possum.

I don't buy that he has suddenly become not much better than a decent club golfer. He just ain't no Ian Baker Finch, or David Duval, and a long period in the doldrums, would build up the sympathy vote. Then, when he does turn it on, rather than coming back and picking up where he left off, and nobody really giving a shit(lets face it, he doesn't need the money either way), he wins back hearts for struggles and his great battle.


Not sure that he will, or can conquer the heights, or win Majors again, but I think he will win tournaments again.

Set in on neither.

Rafa has one more French Open in him. I'd back him against the other two options

I will have 25% of my roll on neither at 2/1.

£3 booked at 2/1 then :)

Neither for me

Ask again in about 3 and a half weeks.

Now the ATP have finally cracked down on drugs properly rafa showed today and last month in Paris what he really is.  A jobbing tennis player with very little natural talent at the top end of the game.  He shouldn't be having this drop off at his age if he is really one of the GOAT let's be serious about this.  Whatever people think rafa abused the lax drug taking system for years.  I have been told this on good authority for 2 ATP players via friends.  These two guys also state several other ' big names' have also been up to no good.

You don't need to be a genius to work it out if you look at rafa's 'injury breaks' over the years.

As for Tiger i literally couldn't back him with stolen to win another major.  I would probably have a decent wager he never top 5's again in a major never mind wins one.  He lived on the edge as a shagging machine for years getting away with it.  That ego driven lifestyle has all gone now and his confidence was totally shot by it imo.

Rafa made the QF of the French this year despite having virtually no form going into the tournament.

Assuming he has a clear run into that event for the next 3 years there is no way he'll be double figures to win there in any of them.

Tiger is the GOAT.

He's a shadow of his best atm, but I think totally discounting a comeback is naive in the extreme.

I think it's very close between the three options.

If I had a bet, I think I'd go with Rafa.

why is tiger the GOAT?  Not looking for a ruck but you talk like it is a 1.01 shot.  He isn't even the all time leader in majors as a simple metric.

Rafa hasn't had any real 'form' since he came off the gear in reality.  This is the 'real' rafa.  He is 29.  He isn't much older than Djok and Muz yet in freefall on every surface over the past 2 years. Makes no sense other than drugs (or the lack of them).  His performance today was shocking against a lifelong journeyman at best.  

Regarding his 'lack of form' going into the French this year i would suggest that was because he was playing shit and isn't the player most people think he is when he is clean.  He has played throughout 2015 and been beaten by some bad players in numerous events through out the year on all surfaces.  The so called 'king of clay' played the whole clay court season and lost to players he would have beat with his eyes closed 3 years ago on several occasions at the age of 29.  What is your definition of a 'clear run'?  Drug assisted?  He had the perfect prep this season for the clay season but was awful relatively for the GOAT on the surface at the age of 29 from start to finish imo.

What was that stat I heard a couple of years ago?

At his peak he was further clear of Phil Mickleson in second of rankings points, than Phil was of the number 1000 in the world.

For a three or four year stretch he was starting at less than 2/1 for every damn tournament he played. Majors included.

His record of converting when entering the final round as leader or joint leader was insane.

Of all major sports golf is easily the most random. The best player is least likely to win any given event.

For about 5 years Tiger overcame that randomness and dominated like Steve Davis did at snooker in the early 80s.

I have an enormous amount of respect for Jack Nicklaus. Fantastic player and great person. His Masters win in 86 is still one of my all time favourite sporting events.

But he never dominated like Tiger did.

I don't disagree with anything you said.  I know little about golf relatively to other sports.  I just don't think he is a 1.01 shot to be considered the GOAT given his collapse in the past few years.  He went off close to evens for some majors i think in my early days in the punting business fwiw.  I don't think he is anymore dominant than Steve Davies, Federer, Hendry or Taylor in their respective sports and those guys did it for the same length of time or longer.  

The rankings stat although impressive means little unless you know how the points are allocated.  Any rankings system is pretty random.  Remember when USA were the 4th best football team in the world for a decade!  ;)  Colin Lloyd was also the darts world number 1 for 2 years when taylor was in his absolute prime and winning any major that mattered.

No he didn't dominant more than them obv, but to be mentioned in the same breath of them proves how great he was.

For a random tournament, the number darts player in the world might be a 6/4 shot. Hendry was probably Evens for every event.

Normally the number one golfer is a minimum of 6/1. Often it's 10s the field.

I would bet decent money we'll never see a golfer off at the sort of prices Tiger used to go off for the majors.

Spieth has won the first two, and he's still 33/1 to win the slam. For a while Tiger was 33/1 to win the slam before he teed off at Augusta!

Looks like Tiger has taken some of our comments personally - he shot a 66 yesterday.

After about 2 mins scratching my head wondering what the hell GOAT meant Google was my friend.

GOAT - "Tucking back your balls and dick, then bending over thus resembling the back of a goat"

What odds on a paid BE subscription providing a profit soon?

I'd definitely be on neither, but how long would you have to wait to settle the Tiger piece of that.
Jack, for my money a far better candidate for GOAT in golf, won his last major at the age of 46.

Btw, I get that Tiger dominated the sport for a time, but for a long period of that dominance there was less to dominate. U.S. Golf was full of journeymen players making money by making cuts and riding one the wave of sponsorship that became a tsunami when Tiger came along. Not just because he was a marketing man's dream, but also because of the rise of subscription based TV channels.
 Palmer started that wave and then Nicklausgot on it and Player, Trevino, Watson, all rode it with him.

Woods definitely in the top two or three though :)

neither for me

nadal minus his help can't overpower opponets. five years ago he would have blasted dustin brown off the court with his groundstrokes

woods technique presumably can come good again, but there are physical problems too..back and knees

Jack won at 46 in an era when depth of competition was much weaker and players of 20-25 years old were not overpowering courses. tiger when at 46 will not only have to go through rory/jordan and co but presumably the generation below that with strength and condition and technology advancing all the time. almost impossible i'd say

I am as convinced as anyone that Rafa has had used some form of PED's, but I also think it is rife in tennis. To think he would be some kind of journeymen on a level playing field isn't doing his talent justice IMO.

The 1986 Masters was a weak field?
Nicklaus shot 65 on the final day and the Top 8 and ties included, Greg Norman, Tom Kite, Seve, Bernhard Langer, Tom Watson,  Payne Stewart, Ben Crenshaw and Nick Price.

Doesn't look weak to me.

competition was far weaker back then is what i said. it was, far less depth. very few players were overpowering courses like they do now

Have to disagree. In 20 years time the above names will be regarded in their generation as being equally strong as the players of this generation. 30 years ago people were saying guys were overpowering courses with new equipment, and it will be the same in thirty years time, no doubt.

I recall moving from wooden clubs to metal clubs during this era, and half the people you played against were claiming how unfair it was. It will ever be thus.

Nadal - obv been juicing for years and can't take the physical toll without it. He's old for a tennis player and even older for someone who's game is based so much on power.

Woods- shot both physically and mentally. Back/knees are notorious for never healing properly, he's also old now. Just look at the PGA tour, every week 20 somethings at the top of the leaderboards, massive depth of competition too.
Mentally he is gone, to the point of delusion. See it sooo many times with other sportsman on the decline, stating how they are working hard and getting better. Just doesn't happen.
Another massive flaw for Woods is that other players are no longer intimidated by him. In the past oppos usually crumbled in final round.

Neither. I'd also have Tiger a shorter price than Rafa

Nadal 2.74!

Good bump.

dont want to see celtic miss out ;)

He is probably odds on now coupled to win a slam this year.

Good for PR to pay Celtic early

And Tiger is back!

Totally forgot about this thread, excellent bump.

cracking bump. Favs falling over has helped Nadal a treat. Can't see Woods getting close though

On it goes

All over now.  Last chance gone. 

3/1 for the French open

I can't believe this thread was July 2015

That seems awfully skinny.

I'll lay 7/2 if you want a little wager.

Hmm I'm clueless about tennis

Woods looks further away then ever. Not a hope he wins another major

Odds on now!

Cant have it, just can't.

I'll take it

Neither?

Another 25% of my bankroll gone tomorrow.  No idea how i still eat!

Both?

Long way to win a major for Tiger.... this is probably a last hurrah. Famous last words?

:D

great thread.

Read it back, the wide range of opinions from intelligent people who all navigated towards neither woods/nadal winning another major as the favourite of the 3 options I think goes some lengths to highlight just what a terrific achievement by both of them to resurrect careers that looked kinda doomed.

Tiggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggger

Hope you didnt press Arb!

Amazing turnaround from Tiger, which I didn't see happening at all. Happy to see him back amongst it mind.
Still think it unlikely he wins another major. The talent pool in golf currently, both technically and mentally is far better than in was in his heyday imo

Man I think thats a bold claim, he's already competed very strongly in 2 majors this year, he's looking very, very good and for sure one of the best players in the world right now based on recent form, I agree it's really hard to win a major golf championship, need all sorts of things to go your way, but if he can maintain his fitness and have 5-6 more years of highly competitive golf thats 20-25 majors, we know he likes augusta and there's bound to be some other courses he really likes popping up in the others.

Not a given for sure, but if his fitness holds he's gonna get a few shots thats for certain.
 

Sport really does has the ability to make fools of us.

Deffo a thread that's worth reading back again.

1.01 Tiger = GOAT is buying money.

Top ten sports new stories of all time?

Was thinking what price I'd want to back him at now for next year's Masters and what's the shortest price I can picture him starting come the week. Landed on 8-1 and 7-2.

There's still a bit of 10-1 around fopr Augusta. Will also back him for all next year's other majors too.

RoyalP are 14/1 about him for the masters, and they'll take a bet.

If it was a film and last night was the ending you would barely believe it. The crowds flocking behind Tiger up the last, kind of returning hero they had been waiting to come home type thing was proper lump in throat stuff. (Tho I did like the article on the BBC that found homage from The life of Brian with ‘he’s not the messiah, he’s been a very naughty boy’ angle) as it really was like watching the sporting version of that scene.

And to think he’s competing against  this generations best players with something close to the B game of his best years is just amazing. The biggest difference to his game over the last few tourneys has been his driving which has been much improved. Think that’s going to be the key going forward, if he can keep it under control off the tee he’s going to keep winning. Will be great to see.

Whilst I'm not even remotely golf savvy, my initial thoughts on the 1st Tee was that McIllroy would try to engage Tiger in a who has the biggest dick contest in driving distance, & that's exactly what Rory did right from the off.

Tiger was not having any of it though, the big difference to my eye is that he is "only" driving to 90% of his power. And as a result, he missed very few fairways.

Little mention has been made of Rory, who had a day to forget, or how Horschel got quite close to pissing on Tiger's parade. And well done Justin, too, that was a weird spot he was in, vying between the Tour C'Ship & the Fed Ex overall.  If I were in his spot, think I'd happily settle for the $10 milly, & that's exactly how it panned out as I saw it.

Rory's head is so gone. Sundays are no longer his friend.

Why is Wayne Riley still on TV?

Rose did really well to get back up to claim the FedEx didn’t he. Tbh I don’t think anyone watching really cares about it at all and what they have done to the format for the final Fedex comp next year just proves it doesn’t work. It’s hard to be interested in a multi millionaire winning another 10 million for finishing 4th or 5th. Rory another victim of playing in the same group as Tiger at the business end of comps, with everything that entails tho he’s looked pretty flakey in serious contention most of the year.

Billy Horschel must hold the record for the least shots seen on TV by a player finishing 2nd in a big golf tourney. That’s my main issue with all the FedEx bluster, it takes away from the actual drama when you build up a story pre round that ends up meaning you follow someone that can’t now win the tourney instead of the guy that finishes 2nd. Don’t remember Billy hitting more than 2 shots on TV all week til he got to the 17th green last night.

Have a look at next years Fedex finale format mate, it’s ridiculous.

jeez

for anyone https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/pga-tour-making-extreme-changes-to-tour-championship-fedex-cup-format-in-2019/

I had no idea, wonder what it will be like,,,


Also, how on earth is DJ world#1 for so long?

100% agree, in fact as an armchair golf watcher, it was not until it started on Thursday that I realised the Tour Championship & the FedEx Cup are different things. Luckily, Sky Sports put up 4,190 Leaderboards & Projected Leaderboards at an ever increasing frequency for the hard of hearing like me.

Its sort of like a cross between the EPL & the FA Cup.

Next year? Yup, curiosity got the better of me - a handicapping system. Next thing, they'll be having 7lb penalties.

In effect, in 2019, the Fed Ex Cup & the Tour C'Ship are the same thing.


Instead of everyone starting the first round on the same score, the No. 1 seed starts at 10-under par, with the No. 2 player at 8 under, then 7 under, 6 under and 5 under. The next group of five players are at 4 under, all the way down until the final five players in the 30-man field are at even par.

The winner is determined by his score to par, not his 72-hole score.

The Golf Tournament format has worked perfectly for ever, hard to see why they need to mess with it. It's as inconceivable as 10 ball overs in Cricket....

Nadal is one more win away from winning all four Grand Slams at least twice - a feat which no other man has achieved in the Open era.

Nadal is unbelievable

in every sense of the word

As clean as Ben Johnson

Just got better chemists than Lance ;D

Thought they’d cracked down?

Tiger close to getting both runners home.  Rafa only added the 3 majors since this fred started.

Molinari is a robot.

Robots don’t like water either...

Indeed.

Moli 5 isn't alive.

Both!

Cream always rises doesn't it

Well played Tiger, very unlike Molinari to blow up like that

incrediible scenes.  This fred shows how clueless i am and why i am so close to the job centre four years on

Tiger's last 3 Major appearances have yielded a win, a 2nd and Tied 6th. That takes some doing at his age.

BITB

Reading back and chuckling at how some really good judges (and me) didn’t give Tiger a chance.

Chompy knew though.

Chompy knew.

And I got on at about the worst price!

Would have been worse if he'd binked the PGA last year. Had 33-1 with Sunbets for that one.

Hard to believe this was less than 2 years ago;



(http://i.imgur.com/tVoVlQ0.jpg) (https://imgur.com/tVoVlQ0)

Incred, pretty much never watch golf these days but that was unmissable.....

Never been a Tiger fan. Thought he has been a bit of an ungrateful such and such at times, never smiling etc.

However, much as I didn't want him to win, the emotion he showed at the end left me all smiley and warm.

I felt a lot of his downfall was his own doing, but reassuring to see a complete about face and some true warmth.

Oh, and didn't Jordy beat Hedeki..........

Well yes, his downfall was self-inflicted, & the public are usually very unforgiving in these things.

Generally though, most people are essentially decent, & I think we all love a great comeback, when someone overcomes huge adversity.

The public adore him too. He's a black American, the Masters is held in Georgia of all places, & the galleries were almost exclusively white. Great stuff.



 
(http://i.imgur.com/ef5o3kl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/ef5o3kl)

Galleries were v interesting.

Grown men actually hugging when Tiger made progress, not just a high five, hugging, all over the shop.

He must have quite a following...

I think you’ll find mixed race is the correct PC terminology  ;nana;

Honest to God, I have no idea what we are supposed to say these days, folks can take offence at anything.

It was, for most of my life, acceptable to describe people simply as blacks or whites. About 10 years ago, in a Live Update, Maria Demetriou chided me for using "black", she said "coloured" is correct. Or I might have that back to front, I have no idea.

Then "person of colour" became the thing.

Mixed race? I spent all my life describing that as "half-caste", & it never struck me there was anything wrong with that. Can't say that now though.

If that is confusing, it gets even worse with gender, of which, if I'm not mistaken, there are now 3 varieties.

Also shows just how much success at top level sport is mental.
He's gone from a distressed personal life and playing poorly/injured/disinterested to having sorted his shit out and back playing to his abilities again.

Haha, I honestly dont care was just joking. The last time I checked I wasnt even white  :D

I know, but it's interesting, isn't it, how things change so?

Think I saw an article somewhere saying there is over 60, just madness.

Funny thing I saw on Rogan was a guy trolling all this bs. He identified as a woman for a minute, while he broke the women's deadlift record :D

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0osaspJSacE

Half-caste is offensive because it suggests that you are only half pure.  Mixed race is fine, though we had an arguement here the other day where someone suggested mixed heritage is better. 

If Tiger Woods says he is black, it is fine to call him that, but he is a very mixed bag.  People see themselves differently.  I get your point earlier, My memory is terrible, but I think when he first started playing there, it was all-white membership at Augusta.  I am pretty sure it has changed in my lifetime, which can only be a good thing.

Half-caste may have been offensive, but it was the standard terminology not long ago. Certainly no offence was intended by those who described it like that & I very much doubt many, if any, realised it meant "half pure".  

As to Augusta National, this is what Wiki tell us;


The club long held racist and sexist policies: Augusta National had no African American members until 1990 and women until 2012. The club, which long required all caddies to be black, barred black golfers from the Masters Tournament until Lee Elder participated in 1975. In 1997, Tiger Woods became the first person of color to win the tournament; Vijay Singh later became the second.


Thankfully all that's in the rear-view mirror now. Interesting context though.
 

No women until 2012 is pretty sad, but I am sure there are a fair few clubs where women still have second class membership.  It seems mad these days. 

Even in that sentence you can see the differences; I am sure that African American is better than black in the US, and they use person of colour much more than we do.

Not long ago must be different when you are 96.   I am sure I used half-caste until the 80s, not sure after that.

You sorted your schedule out yet?  Robbie tickets booked?   

I think Condoleezza Rice became the first lady-member(PC?) of Augusta GC, not sure if she was also the first black member or not.

He seems to have identified himself as Black at this point.

Out of interest, what Race are you?
I’ll stick with Human I think.

Well I learn’t a new word as a result of the last page or two........Cablinasian

In any event, the whole thing has given me a reason to like Tiger the first time in a very long time. Yes he can actually smile and show some positive emotion, whatever happens next I’m really pleased that his kids got to see their dad being the legend he genuinely was/is  :)

A very rare SI cover with no writing, reserved for very special sporting moments

Expect Nike to use the silhouette of this image widely much like they did with the Air Jordan one years ago

He’s still going

Who said 'drugs don't work'?

The Verve

Me after Vegas 2006 :D

Bump

whats that since thread started 7 for Nadal and one for Wood?

Possibly (maybe definitely) the most stupid and clueless post i have ever made!  It takes some beating as well.  As much as i really dislike Nadal i think its hard to argue given his injuries he is probably going to retire as the GOAT.   Surely people can't still have Fed as the GOAT ?   The guy is on a par with Phillip Douglas Taylor as the most insane grinder in sporting history with relatively limited  natural talent compared to his success.   His desire and work ethic is truly insane.   It's so hard  to believe he is still only 36.

And again!

I think Nadal has to be the GOAT at this point. I campaigned for Fed for a long time, because his style of play and shotmaking ability, which I prefer over the other 2. But now hes 2 ahead, with the promise of more to come.

I really hope he finishes on more than Djokovic. I feel like Djoko won a fair few of his when other members of the big 4 were injured, I don't enjoy his style too much, and most of all, I've never warmed to the guy!

I agree i don't think there is any metric Federer can be considered the goat other than easy on the eye right?   The other two have won more (with more to come) in a much more brutal era than the bulk of Fed's relatively soft fields for the fiirst half of his slams.   I never thought i would say these words but i think Nadal is the GOAT.  If  he someone wins Wimbledon this year (and god forbid the us open) for the calendar year slam  its all  over.  Djok has to win  Wimbledon  this year to stay in the GOAT race.

For Nadal to be the GOAT we’d have to set aside all the talk of his bulk and physique being anything other than genetics plus training. Based on some earlier comments in this very thread, that seems like a bit of an ask.

Think we're finally near the end of the Tiger Woods story.

Been painful to watch him struggling so badly this week. He's just withdrawn, sitting in last position.

I think he calls time on the amazing career sometime very soon

I think he'll play the Open anyway as not such an arduous walk as Augusta. The breaks and consequent longer days this week gave him no chance to recover.